Biola University
What does it mean to play sports for the glory of God? How do you keep someone from tying their identity to their success in sports? And why do parents sometimes have a greater interest in their child’s success in sports than the child himself/herself? We’ll answer these questions and more with our guest, our Talbot colleague in theology, Dr. Erik Thoennes.
Erik Thoennes is committed to teaching theology so that he and his students love God and people more fully. He strives to make the necessary connections between the study of theology, obedience to Jesus and fulfilling the Great Commission. He has been teaching college students for over 30 years and has been a pastor at Grace Evangelical Free Church La Mirada since 2001. Erik is a frequent guest speaker at churches, conferences and retreats. He received the University award for faculty excellence and professor of the year twice. His research interests include godly jealousy, the atonement, the exclusivity of Christ and theology of culture, sport/play/competition, and humor.
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] What does it mean to play sports for the glory of God? And how do you keep someone from tying their identity to their success in sports? And why do parents sometimes have a greater interest in their child's success in sports than the child himself or herself does? We'll answer these questions and a whole lot more with our guest, our colleague in theology, Dr. Erik Thoennes. I'm your host, Scott Rae.
Sean McDowell: I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.
Scott Rae: This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Erik, so glad to have you here with us. I, and I look f- so forward to having your insights on this particular topic. This is not a topic we've addressed before, and I think you've got a lot to say about this with your past as an athlete, but both, you know, watching athletes at Biola and, you know, doing some coaching yourself as well. So great to have you with us.
Erik Thoennes: Great to be with you guys.
Scott Rae: Tell us how you developed such an interest in this, in the subject of a theology of play and sports, and why do you think this subject is so important for us to cover?
Erik Thoennes: I had a lot of challenges early on in my life as a kid, and sports early on became therapy for me. It became an escape, and it became a place to go in the park, and challenges I may have elsewhere were a million miles away when I was out playing basketball or football at Colony Park in Ansonia, Connecticut. And it was, it was... I didn't realize it at the time.
Scott Rae: All, all pickup-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: All pickup games.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, early on, yeah. And so I just loved... I also loved sort of less structured play, running in the woods and just that sort of thing. But sports for me, and I realized fairly early on I was a pretty good athlete, and that was an avenue to social acceptance, and so sports- And I grew up in a football-obsessed town, that every little boy aspired to play football for the Ansonia Chargers. So that early on became a motivation. But, you know, I was a Christian when I was a kid, and I didn't think much about the connection between the two. But later on in life, I realized how easy it is for sports and athletics to become an identity too much and idolatry. And on the other hand, I've noticed that some Christians have no place for it because it so easily becomes idolatrous and seems nothing but like a shallow pursuit that isn't eternally minded. So throughout the history of the church, we haven't done a great job with things like that.
Scott Rae: Now, you reached a level of athletic success that most people don't get to. So tell us, just for context on this, how far sort of up the success ladder did you get in your football playing?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, so after college, I played through college, and then had some NFL-
Scott Rae: Division I college?
Erik Thoennes: It was One Double A back then.
Scott Rae: Okay.
Erik Thoennes: Now it's a different category, but it was One Double A, and it was, just... After that, I went and played the European league that they had at the time for four years.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So some people would make a distinction, myself included, between play and, like, sports/competition. Would you make that distinction? Why or why not? What might be the difference, if there is such a difference?
Erik Thoennes: So as I started to try to really unpack what sports is for, from a Christian perspective, I realized there are two primary components to it, [clears throat] and it is play and competition that come together. And I really think that relationship, done well, is the key to sports done well. So I do think there's a solid Christian perspective that gives us an understanding of competition in a good way, and I also believe there's a view of play and playfulness that the Christian life gives us. But when you bring those two together in sports, doing both of them well is really important. So you have an attitude that doesn't care enough about the game because there's no competition, that it's, "Oh, who cares?" Well, that's no good. That's why I read one author who said, "We hate the ch- the spoilsport more than the cheat." So the... Because the cheat is at least respecting the rules enough-
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... To try to get around them. [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: But the spoilsport says, "Who cares? I'll just, you know, it doesn't really matter."
Sean McDowell: Yep.
Erik Thoennes: Well, no, when we play sports, we make this world of make-believe, with make-believe parameters, and time limits, and rules that don't actually exist. We just make them up. We invent them, and it's a world of creativity, and it's a world that we commit to, and committing to it actually enables the play to be that much better. And so that, I really think at the heart- ... Of good sports is that relationship between competition and play. You can have play where a dog's chasing its tail, or... Animals actually have a lot to teach us about how to play. We forget. They don't, typically. But, but so you can, you can have playfulness with no sport competitive rules associated with it. But once you put those two together, that's when you have sports, and maintaining a healthy balance between those two, I think, is the key to healthy sports.
Scott Rae: Now, Erik, I, you know, I coached my kids for a long time at various levels, you know, at the club level in basketball and then at the rec league level.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: And I can see, I... Your point about connecting play and competition is easier for me to see at the rec league level-
Erik Thoennes: Yep
Scott Rae: ... Where basically, we're just, we're just playing for fun. And it's not... You know, it's competitive, and, you know, some dads wanna, [chuckles] wanna win way too much.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: And they forget that it's a rec league and not the NCAA tournament.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: But at higher levels-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... You know, when somebody on, like, on the varsity level in high school or in college or even at the professional level, I think there, the, that connection, I think, is harder to draw because it's, you know, there's, there's a lot of money involved. It's, a lot- the competition is a lot more serious.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: The fans take it-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... A lot more seriously. So how do you help people connect the dots at those higher, more elite levels of sport that you've experienced yourself?
Erik Thoennes: ... That's when it tends to become so idolatrous, but it does at every level. I've seen some of the worst attitudes in a rec situ- at the Y, when it's not even a league, right? [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing] Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: We're not even a team. I have seen some of the worst stuff go down there-
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: -that's just ridiculous. It's-
Scott Rae: I've been- I've, I've, I played hoops with guys-
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right
Scott Rae: ... Who were in their 40s and 50s, who thought their glory years were not-
Erik Thoennes: I know
Scott Rae: -quite behind them.
Erik Thoennes: It's so true.
Scott Rae: They had terrible attitudes.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, and we need to realize we're working out all kinds of stuff, just like I was as a, as a kid. We're always doing that. We're all always working out our stuff- ... In our professions, in our homes, in just different things. We can, we can have so much of our identity riding on things, which is why I think that's the vital thing. And, and you'll hear h- the highest level of professional athletes helpfully put things in perspective when they win or lose, and say, "This isn't who I am. This is a fleeting thing that I have that's a gift God gave me, but it's not my core identity." And you actually tend to play better when that's your perspective. I remember I had tryouts with the Giants and the Patriots, and all the other guys trying to make the team, I could tell, since they were 10, they had been told, "This is what you're gonna do." I was a late bloomer. I just couldn't believe I was there. [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: And I was like a kid in a candy shop. I... And I didn't feel any pressure, and I had found my identity in Christ, and so it was just so great. And I actually performed better in everything than I ever had, and still got caught immediately. But-
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... But it was great to feel a freedom because my identity wasn't riding on it. I actually was able to enjoy it for what it was, rather than something that my life depended on.
Sean McDowell: So I'm curious what it means to play sports for the glory of God. Like, in part, you describe wrestling with these things as a kid growing up, and then it's like you're at an NFL tryout, and it's like, "I'm just playing for the glory of God." Like, how did you get there, and what does that mean to have that freedom that you're describing?
Erik Thoennes: Well, I know both of you have wonderfully, helpfully developed theologies of work, and I think it needs to start- ... As you guys would, with doing it well. You know, a lot of people think, "Oh, I do it for the glory of God, so doing it really well doesn't matter that much, 'cause it's for something bigger than it is." But if you rush past the thing, whatever it is that you're doing for the glory of God- ... Changing a diaper for the glory of God, w- making a meal for your family for the glory of God, whatever it is, you wanna do it well. That's where- ... Glorifying God has to start. You can't just say, "I have this very spiritual attitude toward [chuckles] these things, so it doesn't matter what, how it is." And so I think the first thing we need to think about is glorifying God by stewarding the gifts He's given us well, and in our hearts, redirecting the ultimate credit for it to Him, and letting that be expressed from our lives. So doing it well, but doing it in a way where you're enjoying Him in the midst of doing this craft to your best ability, and over years, making it better and better. And that's what I miss actually most about it, is stewarding gifts on a daily basis. I mean, you guys were both athletes, and you played in college, and you know every year you had this mentality, "I'm coming back better next year." "I'm coming back stronger, faster, quicker, more skilled." "I'm, I'm coming back better." And that was so delightful to have that kind of goal with measurable goals associated with it, all the while realizing how fragile it is. That's why, per capita, athletes are way more religious than non-athletes. So are farmers, for the same reason.
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: You have such a sense of how tenuous this all is. Everything I've been working for for 10 years- ... Could go with one Achilles, just like we saw in the, in the NBA championship [chuckles] , right? It- and so sometimes the religion's just superstition, but there's a sense of, "I'm not ultimately in control of any of this- ... The bounce of the ball or my tendons." [chuckles] "And so I can work hard, I can steward this well, but there's a sense of something bigger than me going on here," which is why I think sports should humble you. Sometimes athletes are the most arrogant people on the planet, but they should be the most humble because they... Who else, every day, than a competitive athlete, gets to the end of herself, who can't do one more sprint, can't do one more rep? Very few people experience- ... Ultimate limitation on a daily basis, on a weekly, monthly, yearly basis. That's why [chuckles] I try to go out every once in a while and do something like I used to. I was running hills on Monday.
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: That is really hard, just trying to run as hard as I can, where I have to stop, and I just, I can't do another one till I catch my breath. There's something really good about feeling- ... Your limitations, your frailty in that way, that sports can be such a spiritual discipline like that. It can be great because, like fasting, like other things that get you to the end of yourself, you say, "Wow, it doesn't take much for me to be done." And so that's just a good exercise to do. So sports has a great potential for sanctification.
Sean McDowell: So, so let me push back just a little bit-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... For clarification.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: You said for the glory of God. It sounds like, if I heard you correctly, two things: number one, doing something well, which means excellence, and then the motivation out of love for God.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Sean McDowell: So you referred to changing a diaper. If I'm like, "I love you, God. I'm in a rush," don't change a diaper well-
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Sean McDowell: ... Is that not glorifying God? I mean, it sounds performance-based. Excellence-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Equals glorifying God.
Erik Thoennes: Okay.
Sean McDowell: Is that what we mean?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, so there's a tension here, isn't there, between wanting to do something and stewarding God's gifts as well as you can, and at the same time, realize that we're never gonna find perfection in anything until heaven. And I know in my life, in every area of my life, I've had to be okay with mediocrity in most things. I'm like a C in most things I do. [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: I'm serious. And, and I've learned to be okay with that, and it's not 'cause I'm lazy. It's just, an average is called average for a reason.... And you know, I thought I was gonna lose a friendship with, some friends when their son didn't make the All-Star team, and I suggested that maybe he shouldn't have. [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: And, and maybe the kid who did is better, and maybe you should suggest that to your child. They thought that was just a horrible suggestion and mean parenting, and... But think about the- ... Value of saying, "Okay, the kid who made it," and how often do you hear, "The coach is a jerk. The ref's a jerk-"
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Everybody's a jerk. Nobody's giving me the respect I deserve."
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: Well, maybe ask them why you didn't make the team, and if it's 'cause you're not fast enough, work on your speed or work on your agility, or whatever it is. [chuckles] Instead, we don't grow as much as we should because we just say, "Oh, the coach is a jerk 'cause he didn't put me on the team." And so that's, that's mean parenting. I think we need to be honest. I mean, sports is a great-
Sean McDowell: I agree
Erik Thoennes: ... Opportunity for honesty. It, it's gonna have an honesty in the actual ability you have, but the feedback you get can pump your head up and defeat one of the main, things you can accomplish in sports.
Scott Rae: Now, Erik, I so appreciate the emphasis on humility in this and how sports can bring that out in you. I think there's probably a reason why the NFL stands for Not For Long. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Right. Exactly.
Scott Rae: And, and I think, and I think most of the players understand
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Scott Rae: ... That they, that it could be, it could be gone in an instant. So let me go back to play for a minute. And I'm still, I think, still wrestling with the- ... Connection between play and competition- ... A bit. But, you make the, you make the comment that play is grounded in the hope of the Gospel.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: What, what do you mean by that?
Erik Thoennes: So life is serious in a fallen world, and we live in a cursed and fallen world, and the Bible's mostly serious. And we know a God who's a consuming fire and should put us on our faces. But [chuckles] woven into that is incredible extravagant grace and gracious sovereignty with the assurance that it's all going to for- work out for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. And so because we have the future hope of the resurrection, we have the future hope, a new he- of a new heavens and a new Earth, that even in the midst of gut-wrenching difficulty in this life, because of that hope we have in the Gospel, we're able to be playful. We're able to take God very seriously, but not ourselves, and take life seriously, but in a way that never feels like it's all resting on our shoulders, or that we aren't confident of a great ultimate outcome. We had friends who just went through a tragedy recently, and I didn't even really think about it, but just when I sent them a note, I just put, "I'm so glad Jesus has the last word." And that was tremendously encouraging to them, that Jesus gets the last word.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: As many hard things that may happen in this life, Jesus wins, and when we trust Him, we win with Him. And so that gives us an ability to be playful, not just in sports, but doing the dishes with your kids. I especially try to encourage dads, have a playfulness. You know, when you're doing dishes, squirt your kid with... Your son with the, with the water. Flick some suds at him and get something going in, [chuckles] in the house, and don't just be serious so much that you've got- you're on to the next thing. And that's the thing: we can be very task-oriented when we're- we try to be good stewards, but because of God's sovereignty and grace, one author I read said that we all should view ourselves as just children at play.
Scott Rae: So that- ... That's really helpful. I hadn't thought- ... About that connection between playfulness and ex- and being a means of exhibiting grace-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... And a means of appreciating that we're, maybe we're not, we're not all that we're cracked up to be-
Erik Thoennes: Yes, yeah
Scott Rae: ... This side of eternity, and that's really helpful.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And, I mean, I mean, I know a, I know a lot of people who, they take life really seriously. They take themselves very seriously, and as a result, they can't, they sort of can't let down.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And you ne- you never see their guard come down.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And that's, that's, that's really helpful. I hope, I s- ... I hope our, I hope our listeners take... If they don't take anything else away from this, that is, that's a point worth taking away- ... I think, from the whole session.
Sean McDowell: It's a great point. Let me push back, since you know as well as anyone, since you're, like... You're probably b- you're probably the guest that's been on this the most, and I only mention that to turn it into a competition. I'm kidding. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: But, w- this is called the Think Biblically podcast, so an obvious question is, where does the Bible speak to competition that could be relevant to sports? Now, before you answer that, obviously the Bible's not gonna talk about football or basketball, but it speaks to principles that overlap. What principles or stories does the Bible talk about related to sports?
Erik Thoennes: So one of the hallmarks of the way we do things here at Talbot and Biola is taking the Bible seriously and not reading things into the Bible-
Sean McDowell: Amen
Erik Thoennes: ... And not trying to find support for things we think from the Bible. So I am profoundly committed to a approach to doing theology that respects the nature of revelation. General, but special, too, grounded in this. Another burden I have, though, is the Bible obviously explicitly teaches a l- some core things about redemptive history, about the glory of God, about us being made in the image of God, these basic doctrines that we teach in our theology classes. But a real concern I have is that we recognize the core teachings of the Bible- ... But also do good work, especially in this liberal arts environment at Biola, to think, "Well, how does-... The image of God apply to a nursing major?
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes: And the way she's going-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... To have perseverance caring for-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... People, that can feel like an assembly line? What does it mean for us to think theologically about art, when the Bible doesn't have sort of this explicit teaching on art, or how we should think about jazz music, or these sorts of things? So, we need, as theologians, to say, "Okay, the Bible has explicit, big ideas it teaches, and I wanna emphasize those, but I also wanna speak into everyday life, the theology of the ordinary." The Bible doesn't have an explicit teaching on sleep, but it says things about sleep, that God never does. He never slumbers or sleeps, and we're frail, and it takes a degree of trust in God's sovereignty to sleep soundly. And, and so it has some things to maybe say about sleep, so I wanna develop a Christian view of sleep. It's a- we spend a third of our lives doing it. Let's think about it. W- I wanna think about a Christian view of-
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... Of eating and food, right? One of my favorite books is,
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Is The Supper of the Lamb, which is a chef theologian who writes about it. I- so I'm very concerned that we rightly emphasize the big things in the Bible, but don't speak into stuff that is every day in our lives- ... In helpful ways. Not overdoing it. So when it comes to sport, theology, competition, first of all, play is grounded in w- the things we were just saying, the, this new heavens and the new earth, the eschaton, actually biblically is described as children at play by a- ... By a serpent's den without being harmed. So the creation itself has all this playfulness in it. The, the Bible talks about God playing with Leviathan to demonstrate his magnitude-
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... And his power, right? And so there's a playfulness in creation, and it's... I love that our philosophers here have knocked it out of the park on intelligent design. Well, I love to think about playful design- ... And extravagant design. God's design can be intelligent, but he doesn't need billions of daisies. He doesn't need- ... A platypus, right? [chuckles] But there's a playfulness in creation itself- ... That the Bible talks about, an extravagance in it, that I think points to a playfulness even in creation itself, and in the way God brings about our salvation. And so- ... So play, I think, is throughout the Bible in those sorts of ways. Competition-
Sean McDowell: Now, hold that competition-
Erik Thoennes: Go ahead. Yeah, yeah
Sean McDowell: ... For a second.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: I wanna make sure people see the way you're thinking about this is kinda general revelation. We look at the platypus, we look at, like-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Sean McDowell: ... The way certain animals play, and it seems to be built into nature.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: So we can look at the world God created-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Sean McDowell: ... Know what he designed us for. We can also look at Scripture-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Sean McDowell: ... And see certain passages that talk about God's playfulness and human playfulness, so they go together. I just wanna make sure people-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... See the way you're arriving-
Erik Thoennes: That's it
Sean McDowell: ... At a theology of this.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, so methodologically, it's-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... It's general revelation, creational around us, and, but grounded in special revelation's interpretation of those things.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: Can we find things in the Bible that point to these things we see in creation that are theologically-
Sean McDowell: That's perfect
Erik Thoennes: ... Instructive?
Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's perfect.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Keep going. You're starting to talk about competition.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, so I-
Sean McDowell: Keep going
Erik Thoennes: ... Ground competition in the pre-fall command to rule over and subdue, and be fruitful and multiply. Now, there's no sin in the world. There isn't that-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Erik Thoennes: ... Cursed element of that competitiveness. But before the fall, and I believe in the new heavens and the new earth, there is going to be a rule, subdue, fruitful and multiply reality that continues. And so rule and subdue are strong words there- ... Before the fall. So we're not fighting the powers of darkness, we're not fighting sin yet, but there's still a bring your personhood to bear on creation. Make, create, conform it to something you want it to be. And so there isn't the sin of the, and the curse- ... Involved in that yet, and so I think that continues. I think faithful stewardship of the creation mandate has a kind of competitiveness to it, where we're bringing things into conformity based- ... On our image of God personhood. But then when you add the curse to it, I think it takes on a whole different dynamic, where the Bible does use buffeting our bodies, and wrestling, and running, and these, this imagery for running the Christian life, that it now does include sin and powers of darkness that we're combating, that we need to take very seriously. And it doesn't have to be sports. Suffering is the foundational way we grow in these ways, but sports can give you the ability to become a more persevering person, someone who realizes you actually are able to do more than you thought you could, especially when you depend on God. I remember I played pickup basketball with a bunch of guys one time. Actually, it was in our gym, and a bunch of guys from off-campus came in our gym, some non-Christian guys, and they were cussing up a storm. And, [chuckles] and I was playing with them, and this was back when I could still play. And we were done, and we were all sitting around, and one of the guys said to me, "What do you do?" I said, "I'm a pastor."
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: And he goes, "You're not a pastor!" And I said, "What do you mean? Why, why would you say that?" And he said, "You're too intense to be a pastor." [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: And I said to him, "Are you kidding me? Do you understand what the Christian life is? It's warfare, man. We're in a war. I'm actually in a war you're not in, because you're not fighting the [chuckles] same battles and enemies I am as a Christian." And I said, "When you become a child of God, you become a soldier in his army as well." And so and it was completely new to him, but he had this idea that Christians are these passive, soft, you know, people who can't get into it on a basketball court within that agreed parameter that we agreed to.... I love that.
Scott Rae: All right, so let's tackle the dark side of this-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... A bit, because that's certainly out there. We see, you know, we see enough stories of, competition gone off the rails, and we see athletes who are, as you mentioned, prideful and arrogant and think the world revolves around them. I think probably there's, there's probably more narcissism per square inch among elite athletes-
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: -than maybe any other population.
Erik Thoennes: And you play tennis. Lately, man, tennis players are idiots. [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: I hope you're not smashing rackets these days, Scott. [laughing]
Scott Rae: That's a, that's a bad thing to say with Wimbledon starting this week.
Erik Thoennes: I know!
Scott Rae: Yeah, no.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, but have you seen-
Scott Rae: Yes,
Erik Thoennes: ... The way they behave?
Scott Rae: Although, you know, I watched some tennis players in my past that, uh-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Put them in check.
Erik Thoennes: Actually, McEnroe's tame these days.
Scott Rae: That's right. But anyway, how does... You talked about the idolatry of s- of sport, so how do you know- ... If someone has succumbed to that? What are the danger signs that you see and that you've advised people to watch out for?
Erik Thoennes: I think it has to start with, one, you st- you're starting to really find your identity in this, that your worth before God and other people is starting to depend on your performance and your victories or how well you do things. And, and that's where it's got to start, but then it has to, continue with the way you view your opponent or your teammates. You, you have to see your sport experience as an opportunity to be a minister, and to bless people, and encourage people, and love people, and sometimes that means you say, "Come on, man, stop turning the ball over." [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: It doesn't mean you can't shoot straight-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... But it means you're doing it for his good. We all know the difference between somebody who criticizes because- ... They're just ticked, and somebody who criticizes 'cause they want us to be better.
Scott Rae: Right.
Erik Thoennes: I want-
Scott Rae: That's pretty obvious
Erik Thoennes: ... I want teammates to call me out-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... If I'm being late. And when I was coaching, I said, "Guys, I'm never gonna get on you for lacking ability. I will always get on you for being lazy, stupid, or selfish." And so sports is a laboratory for character growth, and if those sorts of things exhibit themselves, that's a great opportunity to bear down on them and say, "And confess, and repent, and own those things, and grow in our character in Christ-like ways." And so how am I viewing myself? How am I viewing the people I'm with, my coaches, my, the ref? Like, Ohtani, man, he is just taking things from another... Did you see the other day? He got plunked again, and they were about to come out of the dugout, and he just called them off.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And the commentator said, "This guy's just different." Now, he's probably Buddhist, which bums me out. I wish the Christian guy [laughing] was- ... Was the one who's taking things to another level. But, but it's just amazing how we can be so different in an environment that's become idolatrous, in the way we treat people, in the way we care for people. And everybody wants a teammate who's for them and not just for themselves, and so just how we conduct ourselves. But to truly enjoy the sheer ability to do what God's enabled us to do is where it, how it has to start, whether it's music or using our minds or whatever it is, sense of humor, doing it saying, "Lord, thank you," and enjoying Him because of the way He's given us these gifts, and we get to use them the way we do.
Scott Rae: And I wonder, just a quick follow-up on that, I wonder if that might be an issue that's tougher on coaches than it is on players- ... Because coaches are, they're in the game for a lot longer than players are normally.
Erik Thoennes: True.
Scott Rae: Although coaches, you know, they, you know, y- there's, there's no elite coach that's never been fired-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... Probably multiple times.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right, right. [laughing]
Scott Rae: But I wonder if the temptation for coaches is greater even than for players to make the sport their identity.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, that's interesting. In some ways, you think a coach has more control, but ultimately, the players have got to do what he says. You, you can talk all you want, you can try to strategize all you want, but if the players don't go along with it... But the best coaches are guys or, and women who the players know, "He cares about me. She really has my life and my... She doesn't just see me as a golfer. She sees me as somebody who has value apart from this." And the best coaches get that across, that, "I care you as a, I care about you as a person, not just somebody who's gonna give the product I'm trying to get out of you."
Scott Rae: Yeah, I wonder. I, a guy that I coached with for several years at the, at the club level, he would always say to the guys, he said, "We play sports to learn about life."
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: And I wonder if that's, if that's applicable at every level, and even at even the most elite-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... People who are going to the Hall of Fame, ultimately, would it be fair to say that they ought, they ought to view their sport the same way, that they're playing this to learn about life and to put, to learn about life after, [lips smack] you know, after-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... They're done playing?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I think it depends on the player. So Michael Jordan and David Robinson, one of the most fascinating things you can do is watch both of their Hall of Fame induction speeches.
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: 'Cause Jordan still has a lot to prove.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: David Robinson's thanking the guy who handed out towels. He's thanking-
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... He's thanking the janitor. He's crying out of a, out of a heart of gratitude.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: Jordan's still q- he's, he's, he's inviting people to call him out.
Scott Rae: He's still competing. Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And it's sad to me. It really is, and it just makes me sad that he still can't just say- ... "All right." And, and people laud that all the time. I feel sorry for him, I really do. Where a guy like David Robinson, grounded in Christ, is able to just be truly grateful-... Instead of still just driven by this really inordinate competitive spirit. And they talk all the time about, he can't even play tiddlywinks without wanting to take somebody out. And I think, I think the best athletes have some of that. Like, I have a son- my son is an amazing athlete, but I always have [chuckles] said, "I don't think he'll ever be really good because he's too emotionally healthy." [laughing]
Sean McDowell: Wow.
Erik Thoennes: He doesn't have so much to prove like I did, that, like, if somebody beats me, it's like, "All right, next time I'm, I'm ripping your throat out."
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: He just doesn't have that. He's like, "Hey, nice move." I'm like, "What do you mean, nice move?" [laughing] But, but he doesn't have as much to prove in that way, so sometimes you don't get to those higher levels because you're actually just well-adjusted, [laughing] and you're not trying to prove too much.
Sean McDowell: And that's interesting to compare Robinson with Jordan. Like, that would take us aside. Robinson has two rings, I believe, with the Spurs, one of the best centers of all time. Didn't have as much to prove by just dominating opponents.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, yeah.
Sean McDowell: So Jordan, could you be the greatest of all time without having that edge to just beat somebody for egotistical reasons?
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Sean McDowell: We don't have to answer that, but I think as Christians, we have to say the world's metric of being the greatest is not the highest-
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Sean McDowell: ... Pinnacle.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Sean McDowell: You can win the game and the trophy, lose your soul-
Erik Thoennes: And your family, yeah
Sean McDowell: ... That's what I think comes into it.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Sean McDowell: So let me, eh- earlier, Scott asked a great question about idolatry and competition, and I wanna imagine you and I are just sitting down in your office, and I said, "Erik, talk to me. Here I'm at in my life," and you're, like, counseling me, and everybody's just kind of listening in, all right? So COVID hit, I'm 44 years old. I thought I was done with hoops at 40. My son says to me, he goes, "Dad, you gotta get back in basketball shape. There is no one else to play with."
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: He's a high school player. As you know, he's playing at Biola right now. I'm like, "Okay." So we play, and he beats me, and I'm, like, ticked. I'm like, "Dang it, like, he beat me at 16." So I get in shape, and I just, for a year-
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: ... I'm just beating him every time until the last time we played. And I was feeling good, beating his friends and, like, having fun and feeling like, "I've still got this." I quit, came back six months later, and I kid you not, I was like a JV player. I lost everything.
Erik Thoennes: Man. [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: And now at 49, I'm like, "You know what? That is never coming back. I'm done." Part of me mourns it. The other part of me is just like, "You know what? Like, I'm, I'm okay with that. That was the season. I'm good with it." I don't enjoy playing if I can't be competitive, at least with [chuckles] good high school players. And I look inside, and I'm like, "I really don't think it's a pride thing." "I think I just enjoy competing," and that season during COVID was like a gift that I look at I didn't expect, and I'm like, "I'm okay with it." what would you say to somebody who's working through in their mind? Like, what questions would you ask? How, how has that competitive streak become idolatrous? I mean, what would that conversation look like? I want people watching this to ask the tough questions-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, yeah
Sean McDowell: ... To themselves.
Erik Thoennes: That's great.
Sean McDowell: Have I crossed that line, and where should I give myself, like, pause and repent?
Erik Thoennes: Right, so it... You asked me to counsel you.
Sean McDowell: Do it.
Erik Thoennes: I'm thinking about you, so-
Sean McDowell: Do it
Erik Thoennes: ... God didn't give you a 6'7"-
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... 250-pound body, right?
Sean McDowell: That's a fact. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: So I know. I've played- I remember playing with you, and I rem- I kn- I have heard about the kind of player you were- ... Here, and you were the kind of player that makes a great coach because you had to work so hard. You couldn't depend on-
Sean McDowell: I did, that's a fact
Erik Thoennes: ... All this natural ability.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: You worked really hard, and you- ... Holmquist has told me this. You're one of those guys who's the coach's dream, because what does a coach want? He wants you to actually get not just the most out of your ability, but more than your natural ability gives you. And that's what coaches are trying to do, not just let you be status quo, but take you to another level, and to make everybody else better. That's the kind of player you were, right? So, so that's the kind of... Like, Michael Jordan will never be a great coach, because he-
Sean McDowell: I totally agree
Erik Thoennes: ... He cannot feel anyone's pain in not having that kind of natural ability.
Sean McDowell: He's never really been on the bench before. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: Right. The worst teachers I've had are teachers teaching me another language that they grew up speaking. They can't feel my pain, right? They have no- they just learned it, and same thing- ... With sports, and so you stewarded what you did have in really significant ways, which means you developed this work ethic that's now working out in what you're doing now-
Sean McDowell: Sure
Erik Thoennes: ... In every area, and that's the beauty of sports, that when you lose it... Like, I used to be able to jump over a car.
Sean McDowell: [laughing] Are you serious?
Erik Thoennes: Now-
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... I, my vertical's like that. [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: I mean, I c- I used to... Yeah, it- but it's gone-
Sean McDowell: Wow
Erik Thoennes: ... Like you said, and I actually think there's a right place to grieve that. It, it's like- ... Someone who used to be able to play the violin beautifully just can't anymore. And that, eh- sometimes I s- think, "Man, I wish I had put all that time into something that lasted longer," like the violin, right?
Sean McDowell: Sure.
Erik Thoennes: And so I think there's a right place, 'cause the reason- ... You're losing it, Sean, is 'cause you're dying.
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: I'm serious.
Sean McDowell: It's a fact.
Erik Thoennes: It is, and we're all dying-
Sean McDowell: It's a fact
Erik Thoennes: ... And the curse is tearing us up. And so our tendons, our ligaments, our muscles, our bones, our, eh, our brain is... I remember playing with guys, and there'd be a loose ball, and there'd be this guy in his 50s, and I'm like, "Come on, man, get on that loose ball," and now I totally get it. [laughing] And it's totally not worth it. But I'm not- [laughing]
Sean McDowell: It's not. Amen to that.
Erik Thoennes: So I think there's a right place to grieve the loss- ... Of something, that the fall and the curse has brought. The reason- yeah, it- so but on the other hand-... We can take such comfort in the fact that the most important stuff that was going on, we take with us through our lives, and I think into eternity. Nothing was wasted just because you've lost those abilities. And I remember starting to lose it. I played pretty competitively till I was, like, 50 in leagues and stuff, in footb- flag football and basketball. And I can remember starting to lose it. Like, I remember the first time I couldn't dunk anymore. I was like, "What's that about?" And but I started to take more joy-
Scott Rae: I can't relate to that. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: I started to take more joy in just the feeling of it-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... And the sound of the ball going through the net when it was a good shot. And just the, even the aesthetics of the whole thing and the poetry of it. Basketball is called ballet and sneakers, right?
Scott Rae: Oh, yeah, for sure.
Erik Thoennes: And so the enjoyment of the movement of it, the camaraderie of it, I miss that- ... Probably more than anything. I used to play with students here. In, in one game, my relationships would go to a completely different level. In one game, that would've took months and months otherwise. So sports has the ability to have this intense relational bonding as well.
Scott Rae: That's true.
Erik Thoennes: I remember I played in this league in Chicago, it's a really intense flag football league, and I showed up halfway through the season. I got recruited to play on this team halfway through the season, and these guys are all big league, and me acting like they... We all had played in college or beyond, and everybody was acting cool. I caught the winning touchdown in that first game. These guys are hugging me. [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: They're, they're calling me all these names, it, and affectionately. It would've taken years, if ever, to get to that point- ... With these guys, who are all professionals now. It's, it's amazing what that sort of environment- ... Is able to produce. I mean, even playing with you guys, I know the people on this campus, men and women, that I've played with, and there's a different level. There's a, there's a-
Scott Rae: That's true
Erik Thoennes: ... There's a lit prof, and I used to love getting rebounds and kicking it out to him so he'd get it. And we don't know each other well, but we have this thing [chuckles] ... That's amazing. It's, it's amazing how, it can go so deep so quickly.
Scott Rae: Amen. Now, Erik, let's talk to the parents here for a minute. Why is it that we see... Now, I would say it's not uncommon for parents to have a greater investment in their child's athletic success than the child would.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Why does that happen?
Erik Thoennes: So the first thing I wanna do is recommend a brand-new book that just came out by my friend Ed Uzinski and another guy, called Away Game, and it-
Scott Rae: We're interviewing him.
Erik Thoennes: It's great. And you also interviewed David Mathis. Gra- that was a great interview- ... On his book on exercise. And that's another thing, I love his book on exercise, 'cause it makes you more-
Scott Rae: Great
Erik Thoennes: ... Useful for the kingdom. That's why you stay fit. That's why you do sports. What you do- it's why you do everything. "I wanna be more useful for the kingdom." Love that. So I wanna recommend that book, but I think parents often are living vicariously through their children. That's one of the problems. Like, you don't feel like you accomplished everything you could or should have, so you're gonna do it through your kids. Another aspect is, you just genuinely wanna m- facilitate something your kid is good at in a way that enables them to get to the highest level of it, and that can be a good motivation. But man, you lose perspective so quickly in your child's future in this, and he's not gonna have a future in it, [laughing] right? I'm just telling you, he's not gonna have a future in it. Get out of this what you want to get out of it, which is that growth in who that person is. And I encourage parents, look, don't always assume you're gonna be your kid's coach. It's actually great to let somebody else be the coach-
Scott Rae: I agree with that
Erik Thoennes: ... So you can be the dad, and you're probably not gonna be the best person to help your kid with that sport. And for me, like, when my kids were playing soccer, I never played soccer. I don't especially like soccer. [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing] It's called football, Erik.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I- Dave Oquist here says, he says, "It'd be a better sport if you made the nets twice as big and had two balls going at the same time." [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: But, Oh, no, don't get mad.
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: And see, like, if somebody's mad at me 'cause I said that-
Scott Rae: They're not, don't worry
Erik Thoennes: ... It's out of proportion.
Scott Rae: Yeah. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: Right? Your love for soccer is out of proportion if you're mad at me for saying that. But, I- like, when my kid was playing a sport I never played, it was way easier for me to not get involved and to just be Dad.
Scott Rae: That's totally true.
Erik Thoennes: But when I knew what was going on, it was really hard for me, but I forced myself as much as I could to get in the car and not say, "Would you pump fake now and then?" [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: I actually offered my son five bucks per pump fake.
Scott Rae: Oh, I love that.
Erik Thoennes: 'Cause people don't ball fake anymore.
Scott Rae: That is awesome.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] But anyway, it's one of the best things you can do.
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: But, but I worked hard to say, "Hey, let's go get ice cream," and not be the coach in the car. Just be Dad. Just be encouraging. Put it in perspective. And the other thing is, you know, we grew up in Cats in the Cradle era, where every parent was starting to be concerned about being neglectful, to the point where you never miss a game and you never miss a practice even. There, there are parents who go to all the practices now [laughing] and so-
Scott Rae: I know
Erik Thoennes: ... Sometimes I think, "You know, just miss some of your kid's games to show him it's not as important as everybody acts like it is." [laughing] It's not that important- ... Right? And, and a piano recital's just as important, if not more in some ways. And so let's keep things in perspective and value character display. And, and the other thing I say is, man, when a kid has a athletic ability, it's so easy for parents to pile on with, "Oh, this is our little athlete," and it's what they lead with.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: It's not character. It's not fruit of the Spirit. It's not, "Man, this is Sean. He, he's very servant-hearted." You know, those sorts of things that God really cares about. "Oh, this is our musician. This is..." You know, even, "This is our brat." [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: People label their kids-
Scott Rae: It's true
Erik Thoennes: ... Positive and negative things, and don't help in that.
Scott Rae: Well, I think that message for parents, I think is-
Sean McDowell: Great
Scott Rae: ... Is really appropriate. 'cause I think in a lot of cases, parents take it more seriously than the kid does, and I think the kids, I think, are thrown off guard with that.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: And, you know, that critique, I mean, I don't like hearing critique after I've, right after I've preached a sermon. [laughs]
Erik Thoennes: [laughs] Right.
Scott Rae: You know, that's the last time-
Erik Thoennes: Some space
Scott Rae: ... I wanna hear that.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: Yeah, and I think our kids don't a- don't appreciate that critique, you know, right in the moment. I think that, "Let's, yeah, let's go get lunch together-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, yeah
Scott Rae: ... Is really well taken."
Erik Thoennes: I have a friend, he had two sons who were really good baseball players. And they were in early high school years, and he realized, "We've never gone on a family road trip, because it's always baseball."
Scott Rae: Oh, wow.
Erik Thoennes: And he said, he said, "I know they'll never go for it, but I'm gonna suggest that we quit baseball for the summer and go on a road trip all over the country as a family," assuming the kids would say, "Dad, no way. I'm about to peak here. I'm about to-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Get scholarship offers." He threw it out there. The kids were like, "Yes!
Scott Rae: [laughs]
Erik Thoennes: Let's go!" He couldn't believe how much it was more important to him than it was [chuckles] to them. And you know how that is, you know, if you get out of the routine, that could be your spot, that could be your scholarship.
Sean McDowell: Oh, yeah.
Erik Thoennes: So, so people just depend so much on it. And his kids just wanted to go see Grandma on the East Coast way more than playing baseball, and he couldn't believe it. And he realized just what you're saying, Scott, it was way more important to him than them.
Scott Rae: Well, and Erik, we're at the end of our time today, but I think for another conversation would be helping parents navigate the conflict between sports and church. 'Cause I had a, I had a, I had a [chuckles] coach on my club team- ... And she saw, she saw our schedule. Almost all of our games were on Sunday morning. You know what she said to me? She said, "I wonder what God thinks about our schedule." [chuckles] I thought, "Yikes, I don't really have a good answer for that."
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: So that's, I think, another part that is, I think, worth another conversation on this.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, church is more important would be my simple statement to that. [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Scott Rae: Well, Erik, this has been so helpful. I really appreciate just your own, your, I mean, your own background, what you bring to this as a, I'd say, I'd say semi-elite athlete. Is that fair? Semi-elite.
Sean McDowell: Oh, I'd give him elite, man.
Scott Rae: Would you? [laughs]
Sean McDowell: Come on, man. Give it to him.
Scott Rae: [laughs] Okay. All right, not trying to, trying, not trying to bust your chops on that, but, so appreciate your perspective on this, and I hope both athletes and parents, and I think just the listeners who are just about play- ... You know, I hope we never outgrow the playfulness that you talk about being embedded in creation and is a part of the character of God-
Erik Thoennes: Amen
Scott Rae: ... As well.
Erik Thoennes: Amen.
Scott Rae: So this has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more about that. If you wanna submit comments, ask questions, make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover, or guests you'd like us to consider, email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation with our colleague, Dr. Erik Thomas, please give us a rating on your podcast app. All of the... All those ratings matter, and feel free to share it with a friend, and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
