The Monetization of Loneliness: A new study shows that Americans spend more on OnlyFans than on ChatGPT and The New York Times combined, suggesting the platform is monetizing deep-seated cultural loneliness.

Manhattan Hospital Ends Youth Gender Treatments: Sean and Scott discuss reports on NYU Langone Health's decision to discontinue its transgender youth medical program following federal funding threats and proposed regulatory changes.

Surprising UK Abortion Data: The discussion covers alarming new data from the UK revealing a significant increase in abortions, prompting a conversation on the ethical implications of "pills-by-post" policies.

Lessons from Ben Sasse: Scott and Sean reflect on former Senator Ben Sasse’s announcement regarding his terminal pancreatic cancer, drawing biblical lessons on mortality, legacy, and faith in the face of death.

Listener Question: Investing with a Kingdom Perspective: In response to a listener question, Scott and Sean discuss how believers should approach financial investments by considering both ethical stewardship and the long-term impact on God's kingdom.



Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] A new study reveals that Americans spend more money on subscriptions to porn platforms than ChatGPT and The New York Times combined. What does this tell us? Are new laws and trends changing the transgender debate? Alarming new data reveals far more abortions in the UK than expected. And biblical lessons from the announcement in December by former Senator Ben Sasse, that he has stage four pancreatic cancer and is dying. These are the stories we'll discuss, and we'll also address some of your questions. I'm your host, Sean McDowell.

Scott Rae: I'm your co-host, Scott Rae.

Sean McDowell: This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Scott, we got a range of different stories today, and I'm really interested in jumping into this first one because we're, of course, a week out from [chuckles] Valentine's Day.

Scott Rae: Very appropriate.

Sean McDowell: And... Very appropriate. And you sent this over to me, and it's written by Arthur Brooks, who's kind of become an expert on the topic of happiness. And he says: "Why are young people choosing OnlyFans," which is a porn subscription from individuals, "over love?" He says the answer he believes is fear. So a few things in this article that I said earlier, I mean, this kind of blows me away, that we now spend, as Americans, more on subscription-based pornography platform, OnlyFans, not just all platforms, but that platform alone, than New York Times and ChatGPT combined. He points out that people are spending more time alone and depressed and are increasingly addicted to porn. He says that, you know, this journalist he interviews says, OnlyFans, quote, "benefits from the only trend more impactful than AI right now, loneliness." So loneliness, he argues, is more impactful than AI, which is fascinating. He says, "In this way, OnlyFans isn't just monetizing pornography, it's also monetizing loneliness. It's offering a sense of personal companionship that regular porn doesn't provide." He says, "So why not actually go on a date with a real person in real life?" The answer, this is Brooks, believes, is fear. He says, "This is one of the reasons, or the main reason, that driving among teens has dropped off." They cite fear. He says, "According to a Barna study, thirty-eight percent of respondents cite just this fear to fail." And he says, "Gen Z, as a generation, is the most, afraid to fail." Now, his response, I think, is fascinating. This is where I'm really curious on your take, Scott. He says: "Fear of failure is best met by reframing the risk of failure as evidence of the possibility of massive rewards. In other words, treat your love life the way an entrepreneur treats a startup." He says, [chuckles] "What I found was that entrepreneurs worry plenty about failure, but they have three principles in spite of their fear: manage risk rather than trying to eliminate it, accept failure as inevitable and instructive, and remember that potential rewards of risk are explosive, not incremental." And he really projects the same advice for dating. Agree, disagree? [chuckles] What's your take on this?

Scott Rae: Well, let me make a couple comments. I'll get to the fear part in just a minute.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Scott Rae: But, Sean, the first thing that jumped out at me is this is a vicious cycle that will only get worse unless people break out of it.

Sean McDowell: Agreed.

Scott Rae: Because i- loneliness and isolation is what generates interest in AI, digital porn, OnlyFans, which is done in isolation, which makes the isolation worse, and the cycle then just exacerbates itself. Second, I think we need to call OnlyFans what it is, and it is a porn site. But the interesting part about this, Sean, is it also has a personal side to it, where you can have a pseudo relationship or maybe a conversation with the content creator of your choice. And that personal side, the article points out, is seventy percent of the revenue for OnlyFans. Now, of course, you pay extra for that, but that's the lion's share of the revenue that they, that they generate just from the site itself. [lip smack] so anyway, I think we need to call that what it is and, you know, stop referring it in, to it in euphemistic terms.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Scott Rae: Okay, and I totally get that fear is the reason that is driving all of this, the fear of re- failure, fear of rejection. But, Sean, I think it's a deeper fear than that. I think it's the fear of being known and having to face yourself and your shortcomings by virtue of being known by someone. It's, it's, it's having to face the realization that you're not everything you're cracked up to be, because you, it's-- you let someone behind the facade that you put up. And with social media today, we have more sophisticated ways of putting up that facade, that we have our-- we have it all together. We've become specialists at image maintenance that I think would make the Pharisees look like rookies at this. And s- basically, and it's letting someone in to see you for who you really are, and sometimes what you discover is that's not very pretty. And I think that, I think, is the fundamental fear that's driving this, that I don't wanna have-- I don't wanna let someone in to where they can see me for all my flaws and shortcomings, and therefore, I have to face those myself. And I've done... I think most people will say I've done a pretty good job so far of walling that off, both from other people, but also from myself. So I think the fear part is right on target, but I think it's a deeper fear than what Brooks has pointed out.

Sean McDowell: ... Those are two really good takes. The first one I agree with, and, you know, I've done some research and given talks on the effects of pornography for a while, and you're right. Arthur Brooks points out that it is loneliness that drives people to what I call a relational substitute or a relational counterfeit, and these can be a range of things, but pornography is one of them. But then when you look at pornography, it increases the sense of loneliness, because it's not satisfying the deep human need for relationship, for identity, for being healthy. So that cycle is exactly right. We're promised something, and I remember reading, gosh, years ago, Pamela Paul, we've talked about her a couple times here, a journalist. She had a book probably a dozen years ago about pornified, how our culture had become so deeply pornified, and this is before anything AI. And she said, "Put yourself in the shoes of, like, a teenage boy. He's afraid to ask a girl out, trying to understand himself, afraid to get turned down, but the porn star is always smiling, always makes him feel good." And it's not just the sexual urge, it's deeper needs that human have, and you're right, at the core, the deepest need is intimacy. Now, I have thoughts on your second point, but did you want to jump back in here- -on the first one, or?

Scott Rae: No, ca- no, carry on.

Sean McDowell: Okay. So I think you're right that there is a fear of failure, but it's deeper than that. I think it's a fear of knowing and being known, but it also tells me that then if there's a deeper fear, there's a deeper desire that human beings have that maybe he's also not tapping into. The way my dad used to define intimacy, he'd say, "This is the deepest need that we have, and we confuse sex with intimacy." [chuckles] We'll use words like, "Were you intimate with that person?" And we mean, "Did you have sex with that person?" But the reality is, you can be intimate with somebody without having sex, and you can have sex without being intimate. So sex is neither necessary or sufficient for intimacy, although it's meant to be experienced with a deep kind of relational intimacy. So it's really knowing and being known for who you are. So yes, that's a deeper fear, but it's also the deepest desire that we have as a human being for relationships. And ways I try to get students to understand this is I think about, like, films. Like, people watch big films like Lord of the Rings. You know, for millennials, that was huge when they were growing up. Films like with Gen Z-ers, the Marvel Cinematic Universe films, they're fighting bad guys and villains, but really, you're on this journey with people, and we're drawn to the relationships. That's what makes stories like Jurassic Park not just about dinosaurs, but about the people. We wanna know, and we wanna be known. So in many ways, I think he's not going deep enough in his solution, saying, "Well, let's just compare this to an entrepreneur and reframe and be okay with risk." I wanna say no, let's talk about what it means to be human. Let's talk about what God made us for, to love God and love others, and we will only experience content and meaning and purpose when we have the kind of intimate relationships God's designed for us. That's the kind of reframing that I think resonates with the hearts of not just young people, but others.

Scott Rae: Yeah, and I think what we've, what we've shown so far is that, you know, people who watch porn regularly find that their relational abilities are stunted by that.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Scott Rae: And it... You, you leave porn sort of less equipped to function in the r- in the real world, in real, live relationships than you did previously. But Sean, I wanna look cor- look vertically as well as horizontally. Because it seems to me this is exactly where the biblical message of God's unconditional love for us comes in so powerfully. Take, take Psalm 139, for example, where God knows us inside and out. Before a word's on our tongue, he knows w- he knows what we're thinking. And I think that David, when, in the second part of the psalm, where David wants to run and hide, and he acknowledges that there's no place where he can run from God, I think it's 'cause he actually really wants to run away from that so thorough, penetrating knowledge of him. And it's not until he's reassured in the next part of the psalm that God made him, made him fearfully and wonderfully made, he- his days are, the object of God's scrutiny, that God loves him unconditionally. It's n- only when he, only when he realizes he's loved and known, but known powerfully and loved unconditionally, that he can say, "Search me, O God, and know my heart. You know, try me and know my anxious thoughts, and see if there's any offensive way in me." He asks God for that thorough, penetrating, searching examination of him that will reveal all the things that he previously wanted to keep hidden. And it's not until, it's not until people are certain that they are loved without strings attached, that they're gonna be willing to open up to someone else. And what exists, I think, in reality, with our relationship to God, is a powerful model for how relationships work on the horizontal level as well. And so that, I mean, that- this was a, I think, a perfect little softball for the unconditional love of God.

Sean McDowell: ... Scott, this is one of my favorite takes of yours of all time. I'm just gonna throw that out there. I think that was really insightful, and I would say, I don't remember where I heard this, so people, don't credit me with this [chuckles] that the one who knows us best loves us the most, and of course, that's God. Romans 5:8 says, "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." He pays the ultimate sacrifice for us, not after we get our lives together, not because we got our lives together, but to show his love in order that we could be in a relationship with him. And I think you're right, that when we understand God's love first deep in our bones, or at least begin to, it's gonna enable us to open up to others loving us in the same fashion. And in many ways, God's love can feel abstract, but even, you know, in the church, when young people are loved besides their faults and failures, it gives a model for understanding what God's love is like. That's the deepest yearning of the human heart, and people will never find the kind of happiness that I think Arthur Brooks cares about so much, apart from that love from God and love from other people.

Scott Rae: Hear, hear.

Sean McDowell: Well said. Well, this next story... There was actually a few stories that cropped up this week on kind of the transgender discussion and debates that have been taking place for about a decade in culture, and it felt like this week there were some conversations that we might be witnessing a certain shift, and so wanted to weigh in on this. One is a story that was kind of buried in the New York Times that I found interesting about a Manhattan hospital that ends medical treatment for transgender youth. It was apparently faced with threats of losing federal funding, and its prominent medical program for treating transgender youth has ended. New York University Langone Health, it comes after the Trump administration in December proposed rules that would pull federal dollars from any hospital that provides gender treatments for adolescents, such as puberty blockers, horm th- hormone therapy, or surgery. An, a spokesman for the NYU, Langone, I'm probably mispronouncing it, issued a statement citing the current regulatory environment, they decided to discontinue its program for gender-related care for youth. The Manhattan Borough president said, "I'm horrified at the consequences that might result for some of these young people. It's crucial we find always treatments, further treatments to help care for them." According to this article, the FBI has asked the public to call its tip line with information about doctors who, quote, "mutilate chil- mutilate children under the guise of gender-affirming care," and the Federal Trade Commission examining whether practitioners of gender-affirming care may be actively deceiving consumers. Now, that's one story, but there was another article, also in The New York Times, I sent to you, and this was kind of a 30,000-foot view, and this was from, just really the middle of this week, with n- a number of what they call movements to restrict transgender rights. This is how The New York Times is framing this. So, for example, in Kansas, lawmakers voted on Wednesday to invalidate the driver's licenses of transgender residents who changed their gender markers on their licenses under a state policy. Idaho House of Representatives this week advanced a bill that would allow people to sue private businesses that allow transgender people to use restrooms consistent with their gender identity, in other words, against their biological sex. They cite a study in Utah. Oklahoma, apparently lawmakers are considering expanding the state's ban on gender transition medical treatment from minors to adults. So it seems there's 27 state legislators controlled by Republicans that are focused on a barrage of bills. Used to be on healthcare and sports and transgender minors, now they say the address... Now these bills are addressing transgender adults and youth, seeking to close loopholes in earlier laws and mandate harsher penalties for violations. Now, there's much more going on here, but one quote I'll read. This Reverend Jasmine Beach-Ferrara, who's- is an executive director for the Campaign for Southern Equality, an LGBTQ advocacy group, said, "Our general analysis is that they will go as far as they think they can in enforcing what's fundamentally a very narrow ideological position, that being transgender does not exist, that it is not a reality." Now, it seems to me, I was not aware, Scott, of how many bills are being passed in different states restricting what are called transgender rights. Your take on one or two of those articles or this larger movement?

Scott Rae: Well, Sean, I have to admit that since you thought my last take was the best one ever-

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Scott Rae: ... I'm a little reluctant to weigh in here. [laughing] May all go downhill from there.

Sean McDowell: Don't live by fear, Scott.

Scott Rae: That's-

Sean McDowell: You got this. [laughing]

Scott Rae: I got it. Sean, I think this is basically good news, but I wish it was for different reasons.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Scott Rae: The Manhattan hospital pr- in particular cited the regulatory environment. I think what they mean by that is the loss of federal funding- ... And the departure of key personnel. And the state restrictions, you mentioned, still I think don't cite some of the main reasons why this makes good sense.... The reason is, as we've pointed out several times before, in a lot of these trans cases, the trans treatments are not treating the root causes. They are symptoms of deeper mental health issues, and often, I'd say more often than not, minors are getting these treatments without thorough mental health evaluations, and they often report that the treatments don't make a difference, and the reason they don't is because they don't treat the root causes. Now, in addition, what we d- what we've, what we've- what we already know is that many minors are still going through puberty, and we've reported on the Cass report from the UK and found that in many cases, gender dysphoria often resolves itself post-puberty. And there are-- I think there are enough detransitioners out there to give pause to the narrative that these treatments actually do solve the problem. And I think some of these detransitioners would probably say that the term that's used to describe this as mutilation is probably a fitting one-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Scott Rae: ... In some cases. I think the, I would let the detransitioners speak for themselves on that, but I think some of them would say that that's not an overstatement. Now, I also think that restrictions in women's sports make sense. We've talked about that, too. I'm not sure that it will ac- that, if we don't have those restrictions, I'm not sure ruins, women's sports will be ruined, but I do think it's a matter of fundamental fairness and, you know, women competing on a level playing field. One thing, some of the restrictions I think are overreaching. I would not favor allowing discrimination in housing and employment, for example. But I think for the most part, I think this is basically good news. I think we can probably have a conversation about whether the use of pronouns or gender-neutral bathrooms should be matters for the law. I'm, I'm not so sure about that. I think if, you know, if private companies want to have, you know, and they can afford to have gender-neutral bathrooms, I don't, I don't see any reason why the law should be involved in that necessarily. But I think that's a, that could be, that could be a matter for debate. I could be persuaded otherwise on that, but I think overall, I like the direction this is headed, especially for minors. And I think it's... I th- but and I, and I wish that the legislatures and the hospitals would really s- would cite the most compelling reasons when they make their argument.

Sean McDowell: Good take. I would definitely say solid take, and we can come back and have that debate about the role of the government regulating pronouns in bathrooms. I think that's probably for another time. What's interesting to me is if you go back, you know, ten years ago, this conversation about gender really started around the Obergefell decision, which was 2015, so 11 years ago. And then especially as you move in towards the time of Covid, there was a sense of inevitability about this, and I was cautiously optimistic that what I would describe as reality, that we are sexed beings, that part of our identity is male and female, boys and girls, men and women, have fundamental differences, that reality would win out, so to speak, in terms of our laws and our policies and our language. But not as, There was a part of me that didn't really know. I didn't know how much people were gonna buy into some of this, these ideas that had been pushed on culture. So some of this is a natural overreaction to the transgender movement overacting in certain ways, that even the L and the G and the B communities at times have pushed pause on and said, "Wait a minute." I mean, the number of lesbians who have said, "You're erasing what it means to be a lesbian," which implies male and female, has made this whole conversation fascinating. So we have to remember where we were ten years ago, and people are losing their jobs, they're being silenced, they're being threatened for not going along with this, not using pronouns in some cases with a teacher in Virginia. So I welcome this. This is good news. I just want us to land in a reasonable place, that- because we've gotta share this society [chuckles] with people who see the world differently. Now, what that looks like is a matter of discussion, but this Reverend Jasmine Beach Ferreira, Ferrara, says, "Our general analysis," this is in the article, in response to these movements, says, "They will go far as they think they can in forcing what's fundamentally a very narrow ideological position, that being transgender does not exist, that it is not a reality." I don't know anybody who's saying being transgender, in the sense of if you have a disconnect between your biological sex and how you feel about your identity, doesn't exist. Of course, people experience gender dysphoria. There's no debate about that. But then when it becomes an identity and it starts moving into bathroom policy, starts moving into pronouns, starts moving into rethinking our language itself, that's where people, myself included, have said, "Uh, wait a minute, this concerns us." And so I find this polling fascinating. Americans have become more supportive of restrictions on trans people in recent years. Now, again, the way this is framed is that it's called restrictions.... But for example, a majority still want to see trans people protected from discrimination in jobs, which is what you said, and of course, we have to flesh out what that looks like, housing and public spaces. But two-thirds of Americans favor barring trans athletes from women's sports, two-thirds of Americans, and about half support requiring trans people to use ba- public bathrooms that match their biological sex. So as much as positions that you and I hold about this are called extreme, they're actually in line in a lot of ways with where the majority of Americans are. I do have to say, one thing in this article in particular jumped out to me, and I'm not trying to make this political, but it says, "Supporters of transgender rights attribute the shift largely to Republican political ads and to the Trump administration, which in executive orders and ad- " I'm sorry, "and agency policies, has called it a false claim to identify as transgender, declared transgender Americans unfit for military service, and portrayed teens who undergo gender transitional hormone therapies as mutilated." So they're kind of attributing this shift to, the Trump administration and their efforts. I would say, let's go back further. Part of why Trump was elected is people were seeing what was considered the overreach by this community, and many people are like, "Wait a minute, this is problematic to me." And so I think it's a common sense that people have that boys are different from girls, that our language matters, that sports and competing in sports should not be forced upon people, and a lot of the courage of people like Riley Gaines to speak up and say... And she competed against Lia Thomas, the swimmer. So I don't attribute this shift to Republican efforts. I think there were deeper cultural shifts going on and people saying, "Wait a minute, [chuckles] male and female are different," and hearing stories, like you said earlier, of detransitioners speaking up that have far more to do with this than the politics itself. I think on this one, the politics is downstream, so to speak, of where culture has shifted, although clearly it's moving culture forward as well. Agree, disagree? What's your sense of-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Uptake on that one?

Scott Rae: I do. I think, and it's significant, Sean, the article points out that a third of Democrats actually support restrictions on these treatments for minors- ... Which is a figure I didn't expect. But the i- the article points out the identity part is the, where the shift has taken place, and attacking the identity part is something that's new. But it's not surprising that that's going on because, as we've pointed out before, once it, once it becomes your identity, then it becomes intrinsically political. Because it- because w- if it's your identity, there, and something fundamental about you, then the political arena has to protect what has now become a fundamental right. It's also a matter of language, and the reason that we've made such a do about language is I think part of the legacy of the postmodern trend, that language is, language is the way we establish truth in many cases. And so making sure... It's not, it's not a surprise that we've been making sure that the, that the language that's used actually fits the reality that's there. And the trans movement, I think, increasing- I think initially focused significantly on the use of language because they knew what the postmodernists had been onto for some time. So-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, language has power. I think that's right.

Scott Rae: It does. It does. And it, and it becomes fundamentally a political thing. So the move into the political arena on behalf of the trans advocates, I think, was inevitable. The only thing that surprised me is how quickly it happened.

Sean McDowell: Oh, okay. Interesting.

Scott Rae: And, and so the fact that it's being carried on in the political arena is something that I think that the trans community was asking for. But, but now it's just the political tide has turned, and it's, it's not going in their favor.

Sean McDowell: You know, one other piece of this story, in some ways, I shouldn't open this can of worms, but people can let us know if they want us to go down this road a little bit further. There, there was the shooting this week in the Pawtucket, Rhode Island, hockey arena, and the shooter was identified as, identified as transgender. Last week, roughly, the Tumblr Ridge shooter in Canada, that horrific shooting, was transgender. The Annunciation Catholic Church shooter in Minnesota identified as trans. The Nashville Christian shooter, identified as trans. The Colorado Springs shooter, identified as non-binary. Charlie Kirk's assassin had a furry obsession and lived with a transgender boyfriend. Trump's attempted assassin, Thomas Crooks, used they/them pronouns. Now, this raises a million questions, but I think it's fair to stop and say, have we diagnosed the root of the issue with people, back to your point, or not? And oftentimes, people have been told that this identity, this procedure, this is what's going to help somebody, but haven't dealt with the underlying comorbidities in the individual. And so following some of these stories, the way some of the media, because it doesn't fit the narrative that they want to tell, have danced around some of the facts here, I think has been very illustrative. So I'm not bringing this up to say [chuckles] all shooters are trans. That is the furthest thing from my point. But if there were people who were Christians and did this, if there were supporters of certain politicians and did this, the narrative and conversation would be very different. So from the very beginning, let's have an honest conversation-... About what's going on with gender dysphoria. What drives it? What does the data show? How do we help this community? And I think we're, in some ways, coming to grips with actually what's going on and maybe starting to have that conversation in a way we haven't in the past. Okay, all right, let's keep going. You sent me this article, and this one, really just sobering and kind of heartbreaking on this one.

Scott Rae: It is. This was quite depressing, actually.

Sean McDowell: Oh, my-- The, the title, "The Alarming Truth About the UK's Abortion Numbers." Now, every other YouTube video is called alarming, every other article is to get people to click on it. This one is, Scott. And apparently, last month, after a mysterious 18-month delay, the UK government finally published its 2023 abortion figures, so it takes almost three years for England and Wales. When they add the rest of the numbers for UK, the figures reveal almost 300,000 abortions took place across Britain in a single year, a new record. And here's the key: almost one in three pregnancies in the UK now ends in abortion. Now, babies numbering the populations of Nottingham, Pittsburgh, or Venice are now being wiped out every year in the UK through abortion. Now, this individual goes into both legislative and cultural factors. So legislations meant for the health of the woman get expanded into almost any kind of health, mental health, et cetera, where you have de facto abortion on demand up to 24 weeks in Britain. The pill plays a factor in this. They cite a few reasons, including the cultural just resistance to wanting to have children and have a family. But this last point I'll make, and then jump in here, they say a striking statistic that since 1968, there have been a total of 10.9 million abortions in the UK, almost 11 million, while 10.7 million immigrants currently live in the country. Almost one for one, their own citizens, and the s- their own people who are born there, flesh and blood, wiped out, never had a chance to live, replaced by people coming from the outside. And of course, there's a whole another conversation about how this has changed and shifted the UK, but that's another conversation. Are you surprised by this, Scott? What's your take?

Scott Rae: Well, sort of. But here's... My, my take on this is, I say in the UK, they have common sense about gender and not so much on abortion.

Sean McDowell: That's a good point.

Scott Rae: And but part of it, I think part of the underlying reason, they don't, they don't emphasize it as much as they should, in my view, but doing abortion by mail, with the abortion pill, I think is in large part the medical factor that's driving this. And we should be really clear about this, Sean, that doing abortion with the pills by mail without an in-person medical consultation is-- could be very potentially dangerous for the woman. And the reason for that is because the dosage of the medication and the timing of the medication is dependent upon the gestational age of the baby. Because the fir- the first drug, mifepristone, is only used in the first trimester, up to 11 weeks. After that, it's a combination of mifepristone and misoprostol that can be used up to 24 weeks of pregnancy. After that, the abortion pill is n- is not indicated. So to be, to be fair, sometimes they-- the combination is used to induce labor in place, in pregnancies where the f- the baby has died in the womb, and they give birth to a stillborn. Now, the problem is that the parliament is taking up for under consideration, allowing women to use the abortion pill for all nine months of pregnancy for any reason. And they say basically, that removes all restrictions and guardrails on abortion. But using the abortion pill, there's something that doesn't, that doesn't add up to this, that I'm not clear about it in the article, or the article has got the math wrong on this. Because, my understanding is that third trimester abortions, even into the late second, is just not indicated for the abortion pill. So I don't know exactly how that works. I'd love for a ph- an OBGYN physician to tell us a little bit more about that, if you can. But my understanding is that that is definitely not indicated. So, you know, the medical part of this makes me really nervous for the safety and the flourishing of pregnant women. So that's the m- the medical part I find really troubling on this.

Sean McDowell: I can't answer the questions about the medical [chuckles] issues, that's for sure.

Scott Rae: Nor was I expecting you to.

Sean McDowell: I think that's fair. You know, one point that hit me, Scott, just reflecting on this, and honestly, some of these stories are news, and I try to analyze them. Some hit me differently. Like, I kind of sat with this one a little bit and was like, 299,000. Now, in the US, it's a million plus, but our population is so much bigger.

Scott Rae: Yeah, it's five times the size of the UK.

Sean McDowell: Five times.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So that puts in perspective. I mean, can you imagine in the US, one in three pregnancies? What does this even mean for the effect upon women?... And their bodies and their future, the, their ability to get pregnant. What does it mean? You know, they're- part of the thing they point towards is the lack of a desire to have kids and have children and find happiness elsewhere. What happens is people get in their 40s and 50s and 60s, it's their family and their kids and their grandkids that bring happiness. So does that bring back a sense of loneliness [chuckles] we talked about earlier, and the health effects of that? I mean, the UK has had-

Scott Rae: Does, doesn't help.

Sean McDowell: It doesn't. I mean, the UK had, I forget the title. It was, like, an ambassador of loneliness or a premier of loneliness.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And this is only fostering it even further. It's like they're not getting to the heart, as far as I'm aware, of what drives this. But one story we're not talking about, because literally everybody else is talking about it, is the Nancy Guthrie, just terrible, 84-year-old woman who's kidnapped, and there's a manhunt. I mean, why have people been so upset about this? Understandably, it's new, and it's terrible, but why? And part of the answer is she's so vulnerable. I mean, if somebody came in and kidnapped you or me, I'd like to think [chuckles] people would care, and I know they would, but it wouldn't make remotely the same story. It's like, wait a minute, she's 84. She can't defend herself. The more defenseless somebody is, the more of a moral responsibility we have to care for them. Well, the unborn are literally the most defenseless human beings, period, more defenseless than somebody who's elderly. So we have a greater responsibility, by the same moral intuition, to care for them that we do the elderly, but we don't. And so in part, I just wanna point this out to people and say, if you are... If you find this story just harrowing and troubling, we should find it troubling. But we should also find this, the abortion really in any case, as troubling for very similar moral reasons and intuitions.

Scott Rae: Yeah, and the reason we don't is because we assume, like the abortion rights folks in the UK assume, that the unborn child's not a person.

Sean McDowell: Exactly.

Scott Rae: Because the only way, arguments for abortion rights make any sense is under that assumption. But that's- we call that circular reasoning, where you assume your conclusion and then reason in a circle. Because the- what kind of a thing the unborn is that's, that's the heart of the debate still. Now, I appreciate the article debunking the notion that it- that the reasons for the abortion rate being what it is and women not wanting to have children is primarily financial. I think that's a factor, but I think it's... They, they debunk the notion that it's the overriding one. But I think it, you're right to see it as being cultural, that children are not being seen as a gift any longer or- ... Or a benefit. They're being seen as a distraction, as something that derails my f- my attempt to live a flourishing life, which in my view, has gotten it entirely backward. And I think where we're seeing the loneliness epidemic, we're seeing some of the results of that. Sean, I've, I, you know, I've, I've said to our listeners before, and I've told, I've told my kids this, that being a parent is the hardest thing I've ever done. But it is by far the most satisfying thing I have ever done in my life. I have gr- I have, I've gr- I told my oldest son this point-blank. I said, "I've- I love what I've been doing as a professor, but being a dad outweighs any satisfaction I've gotten at being a professor, and it's not even close." And that's 'cause I love what I'm doing, but being a... There's, there is nothing that is as satisfying as being a parent.

Sean McDowell: You know, this really ties to the first story of people being afraid of intimacy, and yet you bringing back, just Christians talking about and modeling and living the beauty of God-centered relationships. That's what brings meaning. That's what brings happiness more than anything else does. And that's in part why I wanted to bring in this last story that's a little heartbreaking, and it's not really new news. Because in December, I'm gonna read actually a tweet from Ben Sasse. He's a former US senator, University of Florida president, announced in December he was diagnosed with terminal metastasized Stage 4 pancreatic cancer, and he's dying. And many people will know just him from his influence and his writings and his life and his career, but he sent this, and it was, it was his last tweet, and he wrote: "Friends, this is a tough note to write, but since a bunch of you have started to suspect something, I'll cut to the chase. Last week, I was diagnosed with metastasized Stage 4 pancreatic cancer, and I'm gonna die. Advanced pancreatic is nasty stuff. It's a death sentence, but I already had a death sentence before last week, too. We all do." I'm gonna skip some of this. People can read his tweet. It's powerfully said. "During the past year, as we temporarily stepped back from public life and built new family rhythms..." So in part, we know we're gonna die, but when we're told, "You have this level of Stage 4 cancer," it brings urgency, and it brings clarity. What does he do? Steps back from some of his busyness and focuses on his family, and he leans into his faith. He says in this tweet, "Remembering Isaiah's prophecies of what to come doesn't dull the pain of current sufferings, but it does put it in eternity's perspective."... When we've been there 10,000 years, we've no less days to sing God's praise. Now, in this article that I sent you, it's from a publication I enjoy following called Mere Orthodoxy, and this writer, which is kind of comparing and contrasting, Tim Keller's death, how when he died, he didn't sink into himself, but focused outward on other people and said, "How can I see my death as a, as a gift towards others?" And there's a couple videos in here people can watch where Ben Sasse is interviewed. In the article, you know, the title is The Bright Sadness of Ben Sasse, which feels like an appropriate title. He says a couple things. He talks about, "The desperation, the pain, the regrets I've had to wrestle through in the time I realize, and I wish I had served my wife and kids better." You know, one of the themes today, back to the first article and the last one, is, like, what brings happiness? What brings meaning? And at the end of his life, what's he saying? "My kids and my wife and my family, I wish I served them better." He said, I'm... Now he's sleeping, like, 13, 14 hours a day. He's going through treatment. He says, "I'm just bored out of my mind, which is a question about recognizing the futility of my efforts. Like, there was a time when I wasn't as bored because I could delude myself into believing my projects were gonna build a storehouse that lasted." [inhales] That self-importance, the regrets about love and service and the pain, all those lead you to pray in a different way, 'cause you have to acknowledge your finitude. Talks about death being the last enemy, and that death has been defeated. There's a few other points that he draws out in this article, but we talk about thinking biblically about everything, and you and Eric talked about this a little last week, but what's a biblical way to think about dying? And what do you make of this story from Ben Sasse, who, by the way, if I didn't say it, he's only 53 years old.

Scott Rae: Yeah, Sean, not too long ago, I had an hour-and-a-half lunch with Ben Sasse when he-

Sean McDowell: Wow!

Scott Rae: ... When he was on, he was on- he was visiting Biola.

Sean McDowell: I didn't know that.

Scott Rae: And we sat, we sat in the, around the president's lunch table with a s- very small group of folks. This was shortly after he had stepped down from the Senate. And he asked what he could do for Biola, and I was, [chuckles] I was so tempted to say, "Please run for president." [laughing]

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Scott Rae: But I knew that was, I knew that was a non-starter.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Scott Rae: But, you know, Sean, we don't often get an inside look at the dying process.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And most of the time, we don't wanna see it. But he realizes that death is the great equalizer. You know, echoing Ecclesiastes, "As everyone comes, so they depart." And as you point out, he recognized that death is the last enemy, meaning that it's been conquered by the death and resurrection of Jesus, and we've talked about that before. What we haven't talked about is he's honest about his regrets, but he also realizes that those regrets will be behind him once he meets the Lord face to face.

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Scott Rae: That was a beau... That was just a beautiful sentiment. You know, the Bible talks about our tears being wiped away when we meet the Lord. Be- And I think the reason for that is because we will, we will never have felt so loved than we will at that moment when we meet the Lord face to face, and lasting for all eternity. And that's, that's what makes the afterlife so glorious from a Christian worldview. And I so appreciate him being honest about what he's facing, but also honest about what he's looking forward to.

Sean McDowell: That's a great take. Good words. I'm gonna read one of the last things he says in this interview. He says, "The course of life is dependency," of course, when we're born, 100% dependent, "and then a period of independence, and then back to dependency, which is a part of God's design. If you delude yourself and think at 23 years old that the glories of your skin and your biceps are going to last, it's a real shame for you that you don't have the opportunity to [chuckles] be around 90-year-olds, maybe 70-year-olds, who can explain it, but 90-year-olds who can model a little bit of dignity as they decline. And this stiffer stuff in my mind is not Hallmark sentimentality, but honesty about the fact that I'm needy." That's just such a powerful word- ... From somebody. That, you know, in his life, people are talking about when he passes, people will celebrate who he is, be thankful for who he is, but then people will move on. That's the way it works, and that's gonna be true for all of us. And so I think his reflection here of, like, he's kind of asking the question: What does it mean to end well? What does it mean biblically to die well? And I've heard it said that the way you die is the last lesson that you leave for others, and in many ways, we see this in his life, at least based on what we know here. And so it's a reminder to all of us, before we get to that point, to get our priorities in line in terms of what matters, not fool ourselves that we're gonna live forever, not build our legacies back to what we talked about recently, but build God's legacy, because that's what will last when you and I are gone. So praying for Ben Sasse, praying for his family. You know, if he happens to hear this or somebody shares it's encouraging and just so amazing for me to hear of somebody who is seemingly dying well, taking their faith seriously, loving their family to the end. We're proud of you, buddy, and we thank you for sharing this with us publicly.... All right, Scott, on that sober note-

Scott Rae: Yes. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: We do have some questions that are coming in that I think are really important we're gonna take. I do wanna remind people that before we get there, we would love to have you join us at Talbot School of Theology, online or in person. We've got programs on marriage and family theology, Old Testament, Bible, apologetics, philosophy, online and in person. Think about joining us. We have record numbers, so remarkable things are happening at Talbot we're really excited about. All right, so let's jump into some of these questions, and again, as always, thoughtful questions that we get here. Here's the first one: "Uh, to what extent do you think Christians are obligated to align our financial investment with biblical values? A large portion of public traded companies profit from things like tobacco, abortion, gambling, pornography, and violent video games. Most of our investments are tied up in such things. But Proverbs 1:14 warns against sharing one's purse with wicked sinners. Proverbs 16:18 says, 'Better's a, better's a little with righteousness than great revenues with injustice.' Would taking steps to purify our retirement funds from such wicked things be just too radical thing for Christians to consider?" What do you think?

Scott Rae: Not, not at all. I think that's entirely appropriate. You know, and you can find out what your retirement funds are invested in, and you can, you can designate certain things that you don't want investment money to go to. You know, ver- lots of brokerage houses have offices of social responsibility that help you track those things. And your financial advisor should be able to help you to do that. It's probably, it's probably a little daunting to do that on your own without guidance from a financial advisor. But, if you, if you push and, get the person to let you know what these things are invested in, I'd say it's entirely appropriate to get out of things that you're not comfortable with for, as a matter of conscience.

Sean McDowell: It- one of the tricks here to answer this is these Proverbs are written long before, like, national and international economies and business. In the past, it was a lot easier, like when, you know, the one that he sends here in terms of this verse about sharing one's purse with wicked sinners, is a little different than a mutual fund and a-

Scott Rae: True

Sean McDowell: ... Company. Like, and what are our ties to it? So there's a practical trade-off here with what it takes and the principle behind it. So for me, you know, I don't have time every single time I fly on a flight, every product I buy, to do research and find out its ties. I was on a plane sitting next to a guy, and he just voluntarily gave me a long lecture about how we ought to, let's just say, invest the way this individual is suggesting, with mutual funds that only have positive biblical justice support, no compromising ethics, et cetera, completely clean. And I said, "You know, we're both flying on American Airlines right now, and American Airlines has supported certain things [chuckles] that Christians would take issue with in terms of, I think, DEI and sexuality." So I'm not trying to say you're a hypocrite, but we all have to, on some level, do our due diligence here and our efforts. But we also have to live in a certain economy [chuckles] with other people. And I don't know, Scott, how to navigate that. To me, I just say: What am I aware of? Is it egregious? I ask myself if I'm being hypocritical. I try to be intentional about this. But any other thoughts and advice? Because I think you're right, it's good and okay to do this, but I also wonder, how much are we obligated to do this in our daily lives?

Scott Rae: Well, I wouldn't say... I'm not sure we're obligated to do that. And Sean, if you're, you know, lots of things are mixed bags in a fallen world.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Scott Rae: You know, American Airlines did a lot of good stuff. They may do some other things we don't like.

Sean McDowell: I love American, by the way. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: I do, too. And I think the only way you're gonna get purity is if you're living on a desert island somewhere, and you don't have to interact with a fallen world. You- we do, and there are just, there are times when it's just not practical to be, to be 100% purist about some of these things. I think as best you, as best you can tell, and to query your investment advisor, I think it's totally appropriate to do that.

Sean McDowell: That, that's fair. Good, good word on that, and we could probably do a full dive on that one sometimes. If that's helpful, folks, let us know. We could come back to it because my co-host here has written on business ethics, so I suspect we could take this one [chuckles] a notch further. All right, let's do one more, one more question here. This individual says: "I'm a youth pastor at a congregation in a rural community, part of the country. I was recently asked to speak at a youth ministers conference about how we can best educate our students and families about AI, even in a rural context. AI is incredibly pervasive. Families are worried. Here's the question: "As I prepare my message, what are your best tips for talking about AI with teens and families in the church? Even more importantly, how do we equip parents and guardians with the knowledge and tools they need to navigate the AI conversation well?"

Scott Rae: I'd say, for one, know what your kids are doing with AI is the first thing. And know what, know what they're using in their schools, know what they're doing with their off time. Just be in the know on that. And I think we, you know, we wanna say, you know, we don't wanna use AI for things that are really important-... We don't wanna use it as a substitute for critical thinking, for problem-solving, for the traits that we need to develop and that come through hard work and effort, and diligence. That'd be- that's where I would start.

Sean McDowell: Okay. I'm, I'm gonna answer this a little differently than I think the individual is expecting. I guess I would give two things. We did, uh- ... A video on November 14th, 2025, and it was called AI, Faith, and the Future. It's on YouTube, a conversation Christians must hear. And I interviewed three experts from Biola: Michael Arena, dean of our Crowell Business School; Beretugu Tutu, a colleague of mine in apologetics; and Johan Lee, Department of Math and Computer Science. Three world experts on artificial intelligence, and we posted it here on the Think Biblically podcast as well. You're gonna find incredible, helpful content there, how to think about AI, so that's a resource I would rest with. I asked them all the tough, helpful, practical questions, including what you're asking us, so I'm gonna punt a little bit on that one. But I would say in teaching this, I haven't given a talk on AI yet, but I've done talks on social media, and I've found it's best to just ask a lot of questions. So I ask students questions: "What are positives of social media? What are negatives of social media?" I'll put them in groups and say, "What does the Bible say, if anything, that applies to social media?" I ask them questions, have them work together, and then report back to me. I think I would do the same with AI. I would less just talk 45 minutes, more I'd think of three, four, five questions, a few stories or scenarios I wanna practically have them wrestle with. And even though this is a talk, you can kind of make it interactive, because the goal is to get them to think. The goal is to apply biblical principles. And I found on social media and AI, if I'm an adult talking to students, they're gonna receive it better if I ask questions through the teaching than I do make statements. So whatever content you come up with... I like the person who says, "I'm not asking you to write my message for me." That's good. I'm not gonna write it for you, and you shouldn't have AI write it for you-

Scott Rae: Amen

Sean McDowell: ... Just for the record. But I would encourage you, check out that video. It's called AI, Faith, and the Future, three bona fide experts in different disciplines. And teach through asking questions and interactions, and get the students to reflect. So one of the things I do in my social media talk is I have them pull out their phones, and you can pull up through, like, the systems and check on your weekly usage exactly what apps you use and how you use it. So you might have them say, "Write down the three ways you use AI. Share them with a neighbor. Ask what your neighbor thinks." Like, you just get them to reflect on this a little bit. And bottom line is, give them some principles how to approach AI, because this technology is changing so quickly. Questions like: How does AI affect us spiritually? Where is AI technology going? Et cetera. That's how I would lead a conversation like this if it were me. [upbeat music] All right, my man, looking forward to next week already. This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University, where both Scott and I teach. We offer master's programs, like I said, theology, Bible, apologetics, spiritual formation, and more, online and in person. To submit comments or ask questions, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. We would deeply appreciate you giving us a rating on your podcast app, each one helps, and could- consider sharing this episode with a friend. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you Tuesday when Scott and I review a book called Why Christians Should Be Leftists. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]