Biola UniversityThis week, Scott and Erik Thoennes discuss:
$2 Million Gender Medicine Verdict: A New York jury awarded $2 million to a detransitioner who underwent a double mastectomy at age 16, marking a landmark legal decision that could significantly impact gender medicine practices as about 30 similar cases wind through the legal system.
The Rise of AI Boyfriends: Women are increasingly using AI companions, raising concerns about artificial intimacy replacing real human relationships and the emotional, psychological, and spiritual implications of forming attachments to digital partners.
When Spouses Won't Let Go: A medical ethics dilemma explores the tension between honoring your spouse's wishes to keep a dying loved one on life support and respecting medical guidance when further treatment appears futile.
Politics at the Grammys: Celebrities used the Grammy Awards platform to make political statements about immigration and other issues, prompting discussion about whether entertainers should leverage their influence this way and how Christians should respond.
Listener Questions: Addressing the balance between Christian liberty and legalism regarding alcohol consumption, plus biblical principles that should guide Christian thinking on immigration enforcement and refugee policy.
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] A legal decision that could change gender medicine, AI boyfriends being increasingly used by women, the moral dilemma when a spouse refuses to let go of a dying loved one, and celebrities using their platforms at the Grammys to make political statements. These are the stories we'll cover, and we'll address some of your questions. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and sitting in for Sean, who's traveling today, is my Talbot colleague in theology, Dr. Erik Thoennes. This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update from Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Erik, so glad to have you with us again. Super looking forward to your insights on all these stories and the questions that we'll be addressing, too.
Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott. I always enjoy talking with you.
Scott Rae: This first story is one from the Free Press, entitled "A Landmark Legal Decision on Gender Medicine." widely reported in other media outlets, it's a story of a young woman who goes by the name Fox Varian. Her given name was Isabella, who had a deeply troubled background: parents divorced at age seven, mental health issues coming out of that, such as depression, anxiety, social phobia, and then, as the article describes, with her first menstrual period, went into a mental health crisis that gave way to an eating disorder, body image issues. And, she began seeing a therapist, but around age 15, she began to question her gender and began tran... The female-to-male transition. She changed her name from Isabella to Gabriel, began binding her breasts, went public that she was trans, and then at 16, she had a double mastectomy. Three years later, she stopped identifying as trans, realized that her mental health issues were not improved, and joined the ranks, which is now a pretty significant number, of adolescent transitioners who were detransitioning. In May of 2023, she sued her surgeon and her psychologist both for malpractice, and at the end of last week, a New York jury awarded her $2 million in damages. Her attorney argued that she had been harmed by departure from standard practices, lack of informed consent, among other things. And one attorney who was working on another detransitioner case... In fact, the article points out there are about 30 of these cases that are winding their way through the legal system at present. But he said, quote, "A shot across the bow to all the doctors and malpractice insurance carriers that the financial risks and risks to the doctors' careers and reputations are real and substantial." Erik, a really important dec-- you know, an important legal decision. Regardless of what you think about gender medicine, this is likely to be a significant change in the future. So give me your take on this.
Erik Thoennes: It's just a heartbreaking article to read, and it's been heartbreaking for a long time to see the level of confusion about something human beings took for granted for all of human history until very recently, [chuckles] and that's that there are men and women. And of course, sin in our world, the fallenness of our world, produces all sorts of complications and confusions, but the Bible's not confusing about these realities. And so it's, it's an amazing example of how bucking against God's design is always going to be deeply destructive. And what's most astounding to me is that health professionals so have bought in to the way of thinking these days that a subjective, relative human experience determines reality rather than someone's physical body or biological created design or things that are objectively true, now people trying to trump them with subjective experience. And so it's just heartbreaking that a kid going through a very confusing time [lips smack] in her life has professionals berating the mother who's opposing this in any way, saying, "Mom, you're not living in reality." You should get sued. That's, that's as malpractice as anything I can imagine in the medical profession. But it's the way you're expected to think, or you're a horrible person. If you actually align with reality from God's perspective rather than your confused teenager's perspective, you're a terrible mother and a terrible human. So I'm so thankful for the clarity that is starting to rise to the surface in some ways from decisions like this. And sad as it may be, the threat of getting sued like this will, I think, eventually start to outweigh the threat of appearing like you're a Neanderthal when it comes to your views of sexuality.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think, decis- this decision, I think, has put these physicians, particularly... Not so much the psychologist, that's-- he's-- I'd say he's in a little different category, but the, but the surgeons, and the pediatric physicians, puts them in a really tough spot-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Because many of them, I think, were pressured by the gender ideology that I, that I would call part of, [clears throat] what I would call part of the gender wave that has s- that swept among adolescents. And not... And in Europe, at least, they've begun, they've begun to back away from this in the last couple of years with the Cass Report, which we've, which we've reported on, having lots and lots of cautions that, basically, the, quote, "gender-affirming treatments" don't, don't, are not addressing the underlying causes, and the mental health conditions generally are not improved-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... With some of these things. So but now the doctors who've, who actually gave in to that pressure from the American Association of Pediatrics and other medical associations, you know, now are facing a different set of pressures from the legal system.... And so they, I, it's understandable, I think, how physicians found this really challenging to resist this gender wave. But now they're also being sued for things like, violating standards of practice, and not giving informed consent, and other things in that regard.
Erik Thoennes: Right, and I think for a long time now, a lot of physicians probably had a fear of being sued if this patient that they didn't give this procedure to committed suicide, and then they get sued-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: ... For that. Because that's what we're told over and over again, that you'll have blood on your hands if you don't acquiesce to this perspective this person has, and you'll do great damage to that person, which is not backed up by data.
Scott Rae: No, the Cass report, I think, laid that argument to rest-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Once and for all.
Erik Thoennes: But you still hear it a lot, that you will be responsible w- at best, to imprisoning this person to a life, expressing a gender that isn't true to who they actually are, and so it's seen as a very cruel, dangerous thing to do, and it's put in that kind of language, which again, isn't based in reality, but so it's amazing to me that the medical profession has been so swayed by it nonetheless.
Scott Rae: Well, it does-- it appears that, you know, this particular young woman did have, you know, lots of consultation with a, with a therapist. I'm assuming part of that was a psychological assessment before the surgery. But not unpredictably, the surgery didn't do much to alleviate her mental health issues.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And I think we, as we suggested before, the trans issues are normally manifestations of deeper mental health issues. They're not the cause of those issues. They are one of the outcomes of previously existing mental health issues. And, you know, this young woman testified that her psychologist persuaded her that surgery would improve her mental health. And the mother, you cited some of the things that the mother testified to. As sh- as the mother put it, I quote, "The therapist browbeat her into consenting to her daughter's surgery, threatening that she would otherwise commit suicide." in fact, her mo- what her mother indicated was that after the surgery, her mental health issues actually got worse, and she actually began to, began cutting herself- ... In the aftermath of that. So my hope is that this will, decisions like this will enable the US to catch up to the prevailing views in much of Europe, that in the last two years have, they've pretty significantly backed away from these, quote, "gender-affirming treatments," particularly for adolescents and minors. So I'm, I'm optimistic about that, but I think that the jury's probably still out on that, because for the, for a l- for the long time in the last couple of years, Europe was backing away, and the US was doubling down. And hopefully, that, the era of doubling down on these treatments may be coming to an end.
Erik Thoennes: I hope so.
Scott Rae: I'm, I'm optimistic that it will be.
Erik Thoennes: I hope so. I, you know, I have a question for you. You, you've spent so much of your life in the realm of ethics and in particular, medical ethics. I mean, a lot of people, hospitals, boards, look to you for this. So you have had a lot of experience with medical professionals, hospitals. You've seen it from, no doubt the business side of it, but trying to bring ethics to it. I'm amazed that some of the most bright, educated people [chuckles] in our society can so buy into a completely upside-down way of thinking. Can... Do you have any help [chuckles] for me to understand how that happens in that realm?
Scott Rae: Well, I think part of it is that they actually were pressured into it and didn't actually buy into the ideology themselves.
Erik Thoennes: I think a lot of that is happening.
Scott Rae: I think there's, there's more of that out there, I think, than the industry is willing to admit.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And there are lots of physicians who were faced with, "Either I, either I give in to this patient's wishes, or I'm, I'm at risk of losing my license."
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And, you know, the four years of college and four years of medical school and, you know, four years of internship and residency, you know, that, you know, that goes down the drain. And I think part of it, too, Eric, is it's ba- there's an autonomy-based ethos- ... That I think has, is pervades the culture, and I think has seeped into the, into the medical profession. And for a long time, you know, the canons of medical ethics had four distinct principles. You know, do no harm, do good for the patient- ... Do justice for the patient, and the patient's autonomy. And what's happened is, that those first three have all been trumped by the patient's autonomy.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And it happens, it happens all the time, and typically, we don't allow autonomy for minors because we, I think rightly suggest that, you know, 11, 10, 11, 12-year-olds are not at a place where they're capable of making life, you know, life-changing, life-altering medical decisions for themselves. Now, if they're 17, 18, maybe they're a little bit closer to that.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: But for the most part, we don't-- parent, parental consent is necessary for these kinds of treatments for minors, except, you know, except in this one, and except in abortion cases.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: And thankfully, m- states are now repealing laws-... That required schools and other pr- other, folk, folks that are, involved in the lives of adolescents from keeping information about movement in trans directions on behalf of their student.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: Which I think is-- that's, I think, a really helpful step in the right direction. So I'd say it's, it's a combination of-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Coercion and the autonomy ethos-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... That pervades the culture.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, as you're talking, I'm, I'm, once again, like I usually do with our stories, w- you and I don't try to do this, but I invariably notice a theme in the stories we end up deciding to talk about, even though we didn't-
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: ... Do that on purpose. But the theme I'm noticing in everything we are-- we're thinking about talking about today, is the theme of authority. Seems like every one of the articles and the ideas we wanna engage... So this idea of authority to me is fascinating in this regard, though, because the authority of the individual, even if it defies medical realities and biological realities, just like you say, the autonomy ethic, it's so weighty that a medical professional will deny everything he or she knows is true from all those years of training and completely go against it, to the point where there's passion for the unreality view. It, it really has become a religious devotion. It's that weighty. It, it's as weighty in your devotion to it as much as any Christian devotion I've ever seen, that you will-- I mean, it was br- heartbreaking to read this young lady describe spending the rest of her life mutilated, disfigured, she said. You know, we just had a dear friend go through breast cancer, and we grieved over a mastectomy-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... For so many reasons that are just tragic. And here someone chooses to do it as-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: ... Really, the authority that comes with the individual choice, even like you say, of a child now trumps everything else. But what I find fascinating is in the most drastic ways, they'll give into it, but to get your ears pierced, you need parental consent. To get a vaccination, you need parental consent. Things that are-
Scott Rae: My kid couldn't get an aspirin.
Erik Thoennes: I know! So relatively minor, we're still holding the line on it, but disfiguring a little girl, "Oh, well, we're gonna go with that one." I just think it's madness.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Maybe, maybe we're best to leave it there. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: Okay. [laughing] With madness.
Scott Rae: And, and I think another area that I think maybe we'll see the same theme coming out. Here, Eric, this came from The Atlantic, and this-- and the article, I think, is really telling. The title of it, "The Bots That Women Use in a World of Unsatisfying Men." Now, most of what we've-- Sean and I have talked about this repeatedly, but most of what we've talked about in this area is men using female chatbots for romantic purposes, and most of the romantic chatbots so far have been marketed toward men, but that seems to be changing. More often now than previously, women are using AI-created chatbots and commenting upon among themselves for the reasons why. [chuckles] So some of these reasons are pr-
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... Are pretty enlightening. But, but what they have in common seems to be a general disappointment with men. One, one person put it like this: "Has anyone lost their desire to date real men after using AI?" another one, another one put it, she said, "I just don't think real-life men have the conversational skills that my AI has."
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: And another one said, "I wonder-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... I've, I've seen how many women get cheated on, hurt, and taken advantage of by the men they're with." And one of them actually said, "If it wasn't for my AI chatbot, my husband would be buried in the ba-
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Scott Rae: ... In the front yard." [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Now, one Pew Research poll indicated that two-thirds of women that they surveyed said that they had been harassed, either physically or sexually, on a date.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: Now, the author of this piece has a little different take than the title might lead you to believe. She puts it like this: "Perhaps many women are simply having fun, positive interactions with this character of their own creation, and in doing so, are learning how they like to be treated." She put it this way, and I'm quoting her: "Someone with plenty of friends or even a real-life partner can still be moved by a feeling of romantic tenderness, focused attention, or flirty banter, even if they haven't experienced it in a while. It can help them reimagine what a relationship looks like or should look like." She concludes like this: "I consider that this phenomenon may actually be good for romance, not only for women raising the bar, but for men who proceed to meet it."
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Eric, tell me what you, tell me what you think of this.
Erik Thoennes: Well, it's just... The article also said that men use AI way more than women do, but in this area, women use it way more than men do, and so you gotta wonder what's behind that. But, one of my greatest concerns for our society, for my students, the people in my church, is how distracted we are by technology. And, and the human element of listening to one another, looking at each other in the face, being physically present at church rather than just watching a live stream, to be embodied creatures with each other in ways that is generous in our spirit, our attentiveness, our focus, it's a dying art. Just, just flat out listening to people is a dying art. And so it really makes sense to me, and I do think men are typically-... Worse at it. It seems like when you ask women to have a retreat and get together and talk, they have a much easier time doing it. And men just have, seem to have a harder time valuing true human interaction. And so when it comes to women in particular, I think there can be a disconnect that men give themselves far much, too much permission to have, where they just don't listen well.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes: They, they don't ask questions well. And my- both my daughters have been on dates and come back, and I say, "How'd it go?" And they would say, "Well, he's nice, but he didn't ask me one question."
Scott Rae: Amazing.
Erik Thoennes: "And he doesn't listen well." And, and [chuckles] because so if a computer's gonna remember every single thing I say and bring it up in conversation, so-called conversation... And, and, I mean, you can go on a walk with one of these things around your neck and climb a mountain, and it'll say, "Oh, remember when we did this two years ago, and the weather was cloudy-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... And you said this?" And, I mean, it's got this amazing memory that's even more than a human being's capable of having, and so you artificially feel valued. And so it's- it really is a challenge to step up to the plate and not be outdone by AI in our relationships [chuckles] .
Scott Rae: Well, I think that's what some of these women are finding out.
Erik Thoennes: Yes! Yeah. And, I mean, Brian Regan has this great bit where he goes golfing with his buddy who had recently been divorced, and he comes home, and his wife says, "Well, how's he doing?" And he said, "I'm not really sure."
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And he says, "Is he dating anyone?" "Well, I don't, I don't know." And she said, "Did you ask him any questions?" And he said, "Well, he has a new driver. I know that." [laughing]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And it was... It's making fun of guys and how easily we disengage and just talk about-
Scott Rae: Yeah, yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Superficial things so much, where his wife wants to know all the details about her- his friend's heart, and he's clueless. And so it is, it's a wake-up call. It's really convicting, to just think about how we naturally disconnect from each other and don't give each other the generous spirit we should be.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Now, you know, it's one thing to sort of disconnect from, you know, friends and acquaintances and things like that. It's another thing to do that with your spouse.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And, you know, with the relationship we think is the most important one next to our relationship to God-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... If that's happening, that's a bad sign. See, and I'm not near as optimistic about this author is, about the benefits of these AI companions. And I st- I still think the danger of substituting those for real messy relationships is something worth getting exercised about. And I would add to this that the prospect of women idealizing partners, that's something men have been doing for some time- ... I think to the detriment of women. But I worry about this imaginary partner who is still, Though the article disputes some of it, I say is mostly a sycophant-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Without challenging you.
Erik Thoennes: That's a great way to put it.
Scott Rae: I worry about imaginary partners setting the bar for expectations for a real partner, maybe setting the bar higher than it can actually be cleared.
Erik Thoennes: Right. If- in memory, if nothing else, it remembers-
Scott Rae: Well, yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Every word you say. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: That seems to be high. Yes. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: That's a pretty high bar that I'll never meet, right?
Scott Rae: I know. How many times has our [chuckles] has- have our wives said, "Didn't you, didn't you remember me telling you this?"
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] I know. Yeah. So it is- it really does call men out to step up and not give the impression that they don't care. And again, getting back to my authority issue, what carries the most weight for you in your life? God has given you a wife to cherish and love as Christ loved the Church, and that relationship should be such a priority for you're willing to put down your phone, close your laptop, push away the distractions-
Scott Rae: Turn off the TV
Erik Thoennes: ... Clear your schedule. That's right. Say no to something you may feel like doing more in the moment, and give the weight, the authority, to your wife, to this relationship that should be massive priority for you at the top of your list of importance. And so it's, again, it's who's calling the shots here? Is it my hobby that's really getting my heart? Is- do I find my wife kind of boring 'cause I think I've got her all figured out? Well, that's a problem, because God defines-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Her as somebody made in God's image.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Well, and because you don't.
Erik Thoennes: Exactly, and so to pursue knowledge of her... We've all seen a couple in their 90s out to dinner, and it's obvious that they got bored with each other a long time ago.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And there's even a disdain in that, where they grunt at each other. But then you see a couple in their 90s out at dinner, and they look like they're on their first date. Why? Because there's still some mystery. There's still some curiosity.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: There's a pursuit in that that gives someone m- a real, an experience of value, that I matter, that even though we've been together as long as we can remember, we still each other- love each other and pursue each other in that way. And that image for marriage, without it, you end up in contempt, which is the worst thing you can have.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I've got one of my, one of my dear friends from high school, I've, I... Sally and I were visiting him, this was probably 20, 25 years ago- ... When he was- he had just met the woman he was gonna marry. And, he had had- they had... It was a long story how he got to be single again. But, they were like, they were like... It was like we were back in high school.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Right.
Scott Rae: And I saw, I saw him again at my 50-year high school reunion, and not much had changed. They were still- ... You know, you could see how animated they were when they were talking with each other.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And, you know, they both had that curiosity about each other that hadn't worn off after 20-plus years-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Of being married. It was really a treat to see, 'cause there just wasn't a w- a wouldn't, a lot of difference between [chuckles] you know, that first few months when they met and 20-plus years in.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, we've counseled a lot of couples in crisis.... And one of the ways they described the problem was, "We became business partners. There were all these things to do, with kids to shuttle places, and bills to be paid, and all these things to accomplish, and we just became efficient business partners, and we lost that kind of pursuing love we should have in our relationships." That starts with paying attention to each other, starts with remembering things they have told us.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And so it's so important we don't lose that.
Scott Rae: Yeah, the next, the next step, in fact, we've, we've seen this come up in some of these, periodical pieces, this phenomena where it just goes a step further, where you have one partner or the other engage in quiet quitting- ... Of their marriage. You know, sort of like the same way people quiet quit their jobs, people are quiet, they're quiet quitting their marriages- ... Now and becoming, I would say, not even business partners, but they're becoming roommates.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And that's, you know, and that's all they have. They don't, they don't... You know, one or the other has communicated that, you know, you know, "You should be done expecting things from me." you know, basically, "I'm, you know, I'm, I don't, I don't, I don't wanna s- I don't wanna separate. I don't want a divorce, but I'm, I'm d- I'm kinda done."
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: Uh-
Erik Thoennes: It's tragic when you get to that point.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I'm, I'm hopeful that that's not gonna be a growing trend, though I'm not super optimistic about that. I think, I think, from what you're describing, there are couples who've sort of, I wouldn't say defaulted, quiet quit their marriage, but they're, they're headed in that direction. Maybe they don't acknowledge that that's what it is or don't wanna call it that- ... But that seems to be what it is.
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] And I think a lot of people are isolated in their marriages without aunties, and spiritual grandmothers-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... And g- fathers, and, i- who come alongside you and say, "Oh, I remember that phase of our marriage. That was tough. You n- you need to be prayerful about that."
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: I-
Scott Rae: And they don't, they don't have to be blood relatives-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... For that either.
Erik Thoennes: Oh, no. No, I think the church has to be the context of that kind of supportive community where you're not isolated, where you have the ability to sit that husband who's disconnected or a jerk and say, "You're a jerk, and your wife isn't the one who needs to call you to account. We are." But sadly, a lot of, especially men, aren't engaged in the church to the point where that can even happen.
Scott Rae: Right.
Erik Thoennes: So I'm always grateful when a guy is dropping the ball, but at least he's committed enough to the church where we can call him out on it.
Scott Rae: Yeah, yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And, and that's-
Scott Rae: And he's wi- and he's willing to stay in the church-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... After you do that.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, and not think, "Well, I'm not listening to you."
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: So again, it's authority, isn't it? Hey, we're getting back to authority. I'm telling you, this was the theme as I read through these articles.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: It's authority. Who's calling the shots? Who do you answer to? Is it just your particular desires at the moment, or is it something bigger that God calls you to?
Scott Rae: All right, here's a third one. This is another tragic story. This is from The New York Times- ... And a very common occurrence in l- end-of-life scenarios. This is from a critical care physician, entitled, "My patient was dying. His wife refused to accept it." This particular patient was dying from untreatable liver cancer that was causing other organs to fail, and as I would put it, he was in a death spiral that his wife could not, could not, and would not accept. Yet, here's authority again. She's the one who had decision-making authority to tell the physician what, you know, to best represent her husband's wishes, and was pressuring the doctor to do whatever it took to keep him alive. After, after one description of his diagnosis and prognosis, she simply said, "I don't want to hear that. You have to do something." And what she meant, really, was, "You have to do everything to keep him alive at all costs, at all times." Now, eventually, it took a, it took a good while, but eventually she came around and accepted stopping treatments, but it was really difficult, and it took a good bit of time because the patient was, you know, was in his 40s, and their kids were still young. So her reluctance to let go, I think, is... You know, I'm, I'm cutting her a little grace on that part.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: You know, and I s- Erik, I saw a lot of this when I was consulting for hospitals, and in fact, I think most critical care physicians would tell you that they get occasion- occurrences like this probably once a week, where you have a, you know, a serious conflict between what the physician thinks is in the best interest of the patient and what the family, the spouse or whoever, you know, and it may be multiple family members involved, what they think they want, they want to have done.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: So in fact, one of them is, it was an extreme case which I consulted on. The patient was diagnosed brain dead, no blood flow to the brain- ... Confirmed by a second neurologist's opinion.
Erik Thoennes: Wow.
Scott Rae: And incredibly sad, but the family was still ordering tests and vital signs- ... To be taken every few hours. And the hospital actually went along with it-
Erik Thoennes: Wow
Scott Rae: ... Because in their view, the autonomy of the family was the ultimate authority here over the, over the clear medical judgment- ... That I'm, I'm sad to say, your loved one has died.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: So help u- help us think theologically a little bit about the end of life and what's your take on a scenario like this?
Erik Thoennes: Well, again, I... You find some articles that are just heartbreaking. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: This one, too.
Erik Thoennes: I'm gonna be sad about this for a while. It, it was a beautifully written article, just describing this dilemma this physician is in, trying to do his job and still really care for this family, that- There's this heartbreaking moment in the article where he looks over at their little daughter getting some snacks out of-... The bag that's there in the, in the hospital room, and he expresses, when it's at the end, how much he admires the way the wife was an advocate for her husband and so deeply cared about him. And, and he gets to the end of this beautiful affirmation, and all she says is, "You never listen to me." [chuckles] And I was im- I was once again impressed with, people in the medical profession who maintain tender hearts instead of just feeling like they're on an assembly line, and they harden-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Because they don't-
Scott Rae: Easy to be jaded.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, right. Just like being a police officer or s- or a profession where you see just the difficulty of life up front all the time. The easy way would be to harden your heart, but this physician obviously does not have one and deeply cares for his patients, and so [lips smack] I was, I was grateful for that. But again, I was thinking of the difficulty that this wife was having accepting the authority of the doctor in this situation, who's done this thousands of times.
Scott Rae: Thousands of times.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. And the difficulty that... And I understand the difficulty. You just don't wanna face reality. And, and to me, of all the refusals to face reality, this is one I can sympathize with as much as any. But again, we- when we think about the reality of death as Christians, we don't accept it as if it's natural or good or right, but we accept it as l- part of reality in a fallen world, and so we don't cling to it as if that's all there is. And so a perspective that both has reality but also is able to say, "This isn't all there is, and we've got eternity together." If you don't have that framework, I understand-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Desperately clinging to even irrational life.
Scott Rae: Well, Erik, I c- I can't tell you how many times I've consulted at the bedside with believing families who are just like this one in the article.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: And I've been so tempted... I've n- I've never, I've never come out and said it. I'd probably get thrown out for saying it, but I've, I've been so tempted to say, "Do- don't you believe all the stuff you say you do about resurrection and eternity? Because at this, at this moment, I understand your emotions, but it sure doesn't look like you believe very much of that."
Erik Thoennes: Yep.
Scott Rae: And they're holding on. I mean, believing families often are holding on for miracles. And my co- my common response to that, if I know the people well, is to say, "Well, if we're gonna go for a miracle, then let's really go for broke-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... And let's turn off everything." Because last time I checked, God doesn't need medicine to work miracles, but no b- no family member's interested in that. And I th- I think you can by... In this case, I think by stopping treatment, what you're s- what you're saying is, "I'm not gonna delay an inevitable dying process any longer."
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: "I'm, I'm, I'm basically, I'm turning this person back over to the Lord to give, to give this patient whatever remaining time the Lord sees fit." and I think if this were a believing family, I think maybe they might need some- a little theological education to help them over the hump, because- ... If, I mean, your perspective on death, what you expressed is exactly right. Thankfully, it's not, it's not the whole story.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: You know, that death is a conquered enemy-
Erik Thoennes: Amen
Scott Rae: ... By virtue of the resurrection of Jesus, and then what follows from that is really important because if death is a conquered enemy, then it need not always be resisted.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And under the right conditions, we can... It's okay to say stop to medicine. And now I, you know, I understand that, you know, we can, we can comfort people by saying, "Well, he's in a better place," and that's true. But the down- the opposite side of that coin is that the fam- the people who are left behind generally are not in a better place.
Erik Thoennes: We feel the sting of death, even if they don't. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: We do. That's right.
Erik Thoennes: That's right. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: And we feel the, we feel the loss-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Really acutely. And so, you know, I understand why people are... You know, it just, it may take them a while to be willing or be ready to let go, but I wanna make sure that we don't misapply the sanctity of life to hold to something that I think is an unbiblical thing.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: Which would be to say, if the sanctity of life means that we're obligated to do everything at all times, at all costs to keep people alive, then I think we've made a theological statement that we really don't wanna make. Because if that, if that premise is true, then what follows from that is that earthly life's the highest good.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: Which as, you know, as we all know, theologically, that's not true.
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Right, and it seems like this understanding we have of where we are in redemptive history right now could be helpful, where we use the term the now and the not yet of the coming of God's kingdom, that Jesus has inaugurated the Kingdom. He's brought victory over death. He's brought the healing we need, the forgiveness we need, but the battle still rages. And in response to living in that tension of the inauguration of the Kingdom, but not yet the consummation of the Kingdom, means we live lives with brokenhearted joy and hopeful longing.
Scott Rae: That's a good way to put it.
Erik Thoennes: And it... Yeah, it's hopeful longing, and it's, it's grateful groaning, and it seems like we tend to err on one side or the other. Either we're filled with gratitude that's simplistic and isn't brokenhearted, that weeps with those who weeps, and we can have a view of death that is trivializing this great enemy that has been conquered, but it's an enemy. It's the curse.
Scott Rae: That's right.
Erik Thoennes: And
Scott Rae: So there-
Erik Thoennes: ... So to take it seriously-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Yeah.
Scott Rae: And the fact, the fact that it's a normal, natural part of life doesn't mean it's morally neutral.
Erik Thoennes: That's right. It's horrible. It- we... I remember, um-... The old Biola grad, he, I keep, I'm blanking on his name, but he graduated from here, and he said he used to go visit his father in a convalescent home, and there was a mural on the wall as his father's dying with all these other dying people, that said, "The sunset is just as beautiful as the sunrise." And he despised it because [chuckles] it's comparing the beginning of life to the end-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... And he's, he's seeing death all around him, and that kind of simplistic view was so discouraging to him when he'd go in there. My friend Chris Mitchell, who taught here for a year, was a great gift to be able to be friends with him, but he died when he was 63. But I've never met a man more ready to die, and his hatred of the Fall and of sin and of death was actually outweighed, though, by his hope for heaven. And it was- it would be unsettling for people, the way he longed to see Jesus one day. And I remember his last sermon he ever preached for us, he said, "I used to long for Jesus to come back because I wouldn't, no one- I'd never be hurt again." And he said, "But there's coming a day when I'll never hurt anyone again."
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And he longed for that. And then he would visit people who were dying, who were friends, and he'd bring a list of people who he knew had died, with their pictures, and he would give it to these dying friends and say, "I don't know how it works in heaven, but when you get there, would you look these people up for me and tell them I'm doing okay?" [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: And it would be unsettling to people. "Wait, you want me to pass on a message?" That's how real heaven was to him.
Scott Rae: Yeah, yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And so it really shaped the way he s- he viewed everything.
Scott Rae: Well, and I, you know, I admit that, you know, facing the end of life is not an easy thing for anybody, and I think sometimes physicians don't do the families a favor by not telling them the full, straight truth. Um-
Erik Thoennes: And we do each other a disfavor if we won't talk about it.
Scott Rae: Well, that's right.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And it's the physician is processing the patient's decline, yet understandably, wants to give the family as much hope as they can. But when they've been seeing hope, and then they hear that, "Well, there's nothing more we can do-"
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... It's like, it's like they've fallen off a cliff-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... Emotionally.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And it's not surprising that they dig their heels in. I just, I just finished an article with, one of our MFT- ... Marriage and Family Therapy faculty, about family dysfunction at the end of life.
Erik Thoennes: Oh, yeah.
Scott Rae: And it's really-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... I- her per- Kayla Bland's perspective was really helpful on this, to help families work out some of the regrets and guilt and shame and anger that keeps them from actually making good decisions-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... At the end of life.
Erik Thoennes: Isn't this fascinating? We've got one article where so much authority is invested in the physician that they lead people to make decisions that are tragic. But here we have the authority of the physician not sufficiently being appreciated.
Scott Rae: That's right.
Erik Thoennes: He's not even coming from a theological perspective. He's just saying: Look, this is what's happening. I'm just telling you. One thing I do think we need to mention is, you can put too much authority in a physician. And, and my mother went to nursing school in the '50s, and she'd tell stories of doctors being treated like gods walking around the hospital, where you stood up when they walked in a room. And they can have a kind of authority that is way overboard, where they won't even consider other options than the one they've determined. And it... For all the downsides of the internet, people can go and say-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... "You know what? Some people think you can help this with nutrition. [chuckles] Can we consider that, or..." But, but a lot of doctors are completely unopen to anything, that they should be willing to at least listen to the patient. So you've got the other problem, too, that people won't come to terms with reality because they don't sufficiently appreciate the authority. But doctors can, like our other article said, can have a kind of authority that you just submit to, even though-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: ... You shouldn't.
Scott Rae: Right. Well, I, we will, we will see more of these end-of-life stories-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Because as us baby boomers get a little older, we'll have, we'll have, we'll have more of these episodes, I think, to talk about.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: And it, [clears throat] and it kept me in business consulting at the bedside for-
Erik Thoennes: Sure [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... For a good while.
Erik Thoennes: I'm sure.
Scott Rae: Here's the, here's the last story. Earlier this week, the Grammy Awards had some, I think, widely anticipated comments by some of the winners about current events, namely about the tragedies that had occurred in Minnesota with ICE agents and protesters. You know, for example, the rapper Bad Bunny reiterated a common sentiment among winners with his, quote, "ICE Out" statement. And Billie Eilish proclaimed a similar statement in a bit more colorful language-
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... That I won't say, but included the notion that no one is illegal on stolen land, which is a, is a mu- a multiple shot at various constituencies.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: On the other hand, [clears throat] country singer Jelly Roll gave a very stirring testimony to his Christian faith and declined to make a political statement. I love what he said about himself. He said, "People shouldn't care to hear m- to hear my opinion. I'm a dumb redneck." [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Now, of course, there's a long tradition of using the platform of awards programs to make statements on any number of issues, and entertainers as well as athletes have used their platform to advocate for causes that they care about. There's an even longer tradition of entertainers endorsing specific political candidates. However, some actors are distancing themselves from political statements. More recently, for example, Jennifer Lawrence, who put it like this: "As we've learned, election after election, celebrities do not make a difference whatsoever on who people vote for. So then what am I doing? I'm just sharing my opinion on something that's going to add fuel to a fire that's ripping the country apart." So, I mean, we... I think there's a, there's a balance here. I think celebrities and athletes have the right to say what they want to and to use their platforms however they see fit. Uh-... But there is, again, this question of authority- -that comes up again in the article in The New York Times that, one of the articles about the Grammys was, I think, pretty pungent in its title. It says, "Why, why should we pay attention to this anyway?"
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.
Scott Rae: So I know you have something to say about this, about the authority that is a more of a cultural phenomenon, not necessarily related, not necessarily aimed at artists or athletes or entertainers, but is more of a cultural phenomenon about how we recognize those things.
Erik Thoennes: Right, and it's got massive implications well beyond the Grammys, and this isn't really about the specific display of this in the Grammys, but-
Scott Rae: Yeah, whether we agree with-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... The sentiment or not.
Erik Thoennes: Right, right. So what got me thinking about this is I'm driving in my car last week, and the DJ on the pop music station I was listening to said, "There's so much chaos in our society, but tomorrow is the Grammys, and I am counting on the artists at the Grammys to bring change in our society with what they say tomorrow." [chuckles] And I just started laughing because to put your hope in what Billie Eilish or anybody at the Grammys says is foolish. Now, it was interesting, and what I, what I read, you know, like usual, I ended up spending way more time on this than I should [chuckles] based on other things I have to do. But it seems the one entertainer, the one celebrity that has actually had an effect on an election is Oprah Winfrey. She carried that much weight with people, that her perspective really did sway a lot of votes in an election. But it... Some articles said this is about the entertainer's reputation and profitability, and it is interesting. Jim Brown was a Republican and supported Republican candidates. But the idea that, well, Kid Rock's like- Well, Kid Rock likes Donald Trump, or Nicki Minaj likes Donald Trump, so that should somehow influence the way I view policy or politics. [chuckles] To just step back and say, "Wait, who actually knows what they're talking about?" Scott, I gotta tell you, one of the things in my life that has been one of the ways I think I've grown in wisdom is knowing when I don't know what I'm talking about, which is most of the time. [laughing] I used to have so many opinions about all kinds of things, but more and more... I'm- I still have opinions, but so much less dogmatically than I used to because, like, economics is one of those things. I really tr- I'm fascinated by economics and... But I really don't know what I'm talking about with economics. That's why I have a really wise, older financial advisor [chuckles] who has spent his whole life in 16 hours a day immersed in what I don't know what I'm talking about. [chuckles] And, and I just- I find it amazing that entertainers or celebrities or anyone who really doesn't know what they're talking about-
Scott Rae: Or as we, as we've talked about before, or athletes.
Erik Thoennes: Or athletes, or... So I remember, I was, I was a kid, and I remember there was an actress who went to the Senate to testify on a farm bill that was proposed, and her qualifications were she played a farmer's-
Scott Rae: That's right
Erik Thoennes: ... Wife in a movie. And I thought, "What? How in the world does that give her credibility to inform senators on how to make laws about this issue?" [chuckles] But again, it's that authority issue. Who knows what they're talking about? It's one thing to have influence, it's another thing to actually have authority that comes from knowledge, that comes from wisdom. And so, for so long, we have so rewarded talent, and charisma, and, abilities rather than character, rather than experience, rather than wisdom, and the Church has not done a great job with this a lot of the time. We will reward superficial abilities over tried-and-true tested character and give people places of prominence, and musicians are one of those. You know, a worship leader, and my friend Justin Unger leads a ministry for worship leaders, they often have really struggling lives.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: But people look to them as just the ultimate in spiritual depth, a lot of times just because they're really gifted.
Scott Rae: Yeah. That's, that's a question that I'm gonna ask when I get to glory, is why are these people that have huge platforms seem to have such flawed characters?
Erik Thoennes: It, it very often is the case, and I think-
Scott Rae: And, and in a lot of cases, it's not true.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: But-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... There are some notable examples of that.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Well, we will thrust people into prominence. I remember Bob Dylan. I believe Bob Dylan had a, had a conversion experience. I believe he... I think he still is a Christian. I know somebody who's got an inside scoop. But he recoiled from the way people wanted him to be-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... The representative of Christianity when he had just become a Messianic Jew, and he thought it was absurd that people were-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Looking to him to the way they were, in the way they were. And, and so I appreciate it when someone doesn't believe the hype about themselves, as they're put on a pedestal that they don't deserve to be put on. It- but it's rare that someone has the humility to squelch that, to not play into that, and be put on a pedestal as if you know more than you actually do.
Scott Rae: Yeah, now what I wanna be careful of is, you know, I don't wanna... [clears throat] This, this is, as you mentioned, this is not about the Grammys, or the actors, or the entertainers, and I don't wanna contribute to the Hollywood bashing that is common-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... In some circles, nor do I wanna be inconsistent in condemning those expressions with which I agree and praising the ones which I happen to like.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.
Scott Rae: And I think, w- you know, I think celebrities, athletes, you know... And we've talked about athletes using the platform for their faith, you know, for better and for worse.... And, you know, one example of this is that, you know, Trevion Henderson, who will be playing football on Sunday-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Rae: You know, he has, he has taken up the cause of the persecuted church, and specifically my wife's organization, that he did a... You know, they, the NFL has a Cleats for Causes that they set aside-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... A week during the season for that, and he had their, he had their organization on his cleats-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... That particular Sunday about-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... I don't know, a month or so ago. But, I, you know, I think they, you know, they have the right to say what they want to say, to use their platforms however they see fit. So the, so what, I think what we're suggesting is, it's not about the celebrities themselves, you know, unless they just expect that by virtue of their celebrity, they have outside-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... Have outside influence.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But I think that I don't have a problem with any of them expressing their opinions. But I think the, what you're suggesting is the weight with which the average person in the culture-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... Gives it-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Is really the issue.
Erik Thoennes: Right. I, and that you would make a decision based on what Taylor Swift thinks is a strange thing. And, and again, I love when people have views and opinions, and I hope they're informed as much as they're able to, and I don't want to bash it. I mean, Ricky Gervais's famous quote is still circulating, where he said at the Golden Globes, "If you do win an award tonight, don't use it as a platform to make a political speech. You're in no position to lecture the public about anything. You know nothing about the world. Most of you spent less time in school than Greta Thunberg." And, and that sort of perspective is something I think is a helpful rebuke, but at the same time, Trevion Henderson's a great example of he's not lecturing people. This is something he's passionate about-
Scott Rae: That's right
Erik Thoennes: ... And wants people to understand. There isn't this pontificating like, "You idiots who don't believe what I'm saying." He just has deep compassion for people who are being persecuted and wants to do something about it, and so I think that's beautiful. And Jel- you know, you mentioned Jelly Roll. [chuckles] These names are great. Before I talk about this, you know, Shaboozey, who I'm sure you listen to all the time, Scott, he spoke-
Scott Rae: I'm very familiar. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: ... He spoke at the Grammys, and he made a statement about immigrants, and he said, "Immigrants built this nation." He's caught all this flak from the Black community and the Indigenous community saying, "No, we did, not immigrants. We were here. We were enslaved. It's not immigrants." And he's saying, "Well, I wasn't saying that," and [chuckles] now he's backpedaling, saying, "Well, my parents are from Nigeria." "Right, so you don't count," and it's just [chuckles] amazing that you can't ever say it how everybody wants you to. But Jelly Roll's quote, when he said it, was just great, where he says, "First of all, Jesus, I hear you. I'm listening, Lord. I'm listening, Lord." And then he thanks his wife. He said without Jesus and his wife, he would be dead. He said, "I was broken. I was in a dark place, and there was a moment in my life, all I had was a Bible and a radio, and I thought music and Jesus could help me and save my life. And I want to tell you right now, Jesus is for everybody. Jesus is not owned by one political party. He's not owned by no music label. Jesus is Jesus, and anybody can have a relationship with him. I love you, Lord." Now, that's beautiful. That was coming straight from his heart. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes: He wasn't lecturing anybody. He wasn't acting like he knew more than he did. He was just expressing gratitude to the Lord for what He had done in his life.
Scott Rae: Yeah, good stuff. All right, you ready? Can we take on a couple questions?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Rae: All right, here's the first one. I love the way the... Love the way this is put. "I just listened to the podcast on alcohol with John Anthony Dunn. It was a bubbly session. [chuckles] as far as I could tell, there was little effort to explore the dangers and liabilities of drinking. I trust that the draw- the author addresses these in his book somehow. It would've been interesting to hear how he incorporates these concerns into his perspective. How do you think pastors and leaders should handle the dangers of alcohol with their congregations?" You're a pastor.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: How do you, how do you do this?
Erik Thoennes: I am, and I know the author of the book you interviewed, and John is a great guy, brilliant student. He was my TA for years. I love him, but I kid him sometimes because he's become the alcohol guy that... You know, he grew up in Las Vegas, and I say, "Well, you just have a low tolerance for vice."
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: I mean, a high tolerance for vice, right-
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: ... Because you grew up in Las Vegas. But yeah, I think John's done some really helpful work, and it, so much depends on the tradition and the background you come out of because a lot of folks came out of backgrounds where drinking alcohol at all was seen as sinful and wrong, and i- and that's not a biblical view of things. I- my friend Jerry Root was interviewing for a job at a church, and the second question they asked him is, "Do you drink alcohol?" And it was the end of the interview when he said he did.
Scott Rae: Wow!
Erik Thoennes: And, and he said, "Well, I find it interesting," when they finally pressed him, "that you have a rule at your church that out- rules out pastors, that, which means Jesus and Paul couldn't have been a pastor at your church, 'cause- [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yikes.
Erik Thoennes: But so that's, that's one thing.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: But, but I have seen from my childhood, where the environment I grew up was mostly a teetotaling Christian environment, there really has been a movement away from that in some ways can be very healthy because we can add rules to the Bible that aren't there, that we don't want to ever do in a pharisaical way. But the other side of it is, alcohol has done a lot of damage in a lot of lives. I was, I was just... I just learned that one of our founders was a prohibitionist, really committed to that cause here at Biola, and there were good reasons for that. The effects of alcohol on society were devastating. So if you've coming from a family with a lot of alcoholism, when you've seen the effects of it, you're gonna have a, pardon the term, sober view of things [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... That is careful in ways that I think sometimes in reaction against legalism, we're not careful enough. We're not respectful enough of people who do have, devastating-... Experiences with alcohol and substances in general. So-
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: It's ruined a lot of lives, so I really appreciate this brother's ca- word of caution, and he included something he wrote to his church, because he was sensing the same sort of thing there, and it was well done, and I really appreciated it. So I think we do need to take seriously anything that can become an idol, that can take us out, take- give us more life and perspective than it should be. That's why the Bible says, "Don't be filled... Don't, don't be drunk with alcohol, be filled by the Spirit," because it's a legitimate problem for a lot of people.
Scott Rae: That's a good word. I appreciate that, especially from your pastoral perspective on that. That's really helpful. Here's a second one: "Are you guys willing to step in and say something about immigration and the refugee arrests from an ethical and moral perspective? I would love to hear more on how Christians think biblically about this with everything going on right now in Minnesota and elsewhere. This is a topic I'm, I'm really trying to understand more from a Christian perspective. It seems to me that anyone who knows anything about the refugee process and anyone who's ever read a Bible should see what's happening as the five-alarm fire that it is. It'd be so helpful to hear you weigh in on these matters." All right, now, I will say, we, Sean and I did address this last week around the death of Alex Preddy. And we gave some biblical principles that should govern our thinking about this. So I would, I would refer this particular listener to that session just a week ago. So anything you wanna, you wanna say on this?
Erik Thoennes: So I teach theology, which is a whole Bible perspective on all the big questions of life, and I don't know if I have a greater concern for my students, is that not just they learn theological content, even more, I want them to develop a good theological method, which means you consider all the relevant passages in the Bible on an issue and consider them in a summarized way, as much as you can, that you, that you summarize, you understand these. And on this issue of immigration, I am so concerned by the way people choose verses, often out of context, on both sides of the discussion, to either say, "We should welcome the immigrant. We should welcome the alien," of, from the Old Testament very often, in ways that are completely out of context, where there is a, an idea behind it that shows the heart of God, but it's a very different context, where assimilation was assumed, where becoming part of the covenant people, where circumcision was part of it, where... So it's not done well in that way. On the other side of it, there's a, "Well, borders are biblical, and laws are biblical, and Romans 13," that seems to often lack a heart for people who desperately need a safe place to live. And, and so it's this sort of either/or verse choosing that isn't an, a whole Bible perspective that considers the passages in context. And so I do think this is the kind of issue a Christian should think well about. I think all those things I just said are true. God has a heart for immigrants, and laws matter, and borders are something you can build a biblical basis for. I don't know if you just saw this, the speaker, Johnson, just, yesterday came out with, or day before, a pretty extensive statement on what he thinks the Bible teaches about this issue that I think is actually pretty well done. I was amazed at how... I don't know if he did it or somebody did it [chuckles] for him or what, but I just want us to not just throw out verses that fit the political perspective we want to support all the time, and that we're willing to say, "Yes, I believe in general this is right, but the way it's being implemented is really troubling to me." And, and that we're not just always backing the particular political perspective that we hold to in-
Scott Rae: Yes
Erik Thoennes: ... In general.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Thank you. That's, that's a good word and a good summary of that. I'd refer our listener to a week ago when we talked about this, too, but that's a, that's a really helpful supplement to what we did in that session.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: Erik, thanks so much for being with us. This is great stuff. Always great to have you with us, as usual.
Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott.
Scott Rae: And this has been, this has been terrific. So this has been the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, coming to you from Talbot School of Theology, [upbeat music] Biola University, with master's, and doctoral, and bachelor's programs in a variety of fields, ranging from Old and New Testament, theology, pastoral ministry, marriage and family therapy, spiritual formation. I'm sure I'm missing a couple along the way. If you wanna learn more about, visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you have a comment or a question for us, please keep the questions coming. They're great questions. Email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. And feel free to join us on Tuesday for our regularly scheduled episode, and please give us a rating on your podcast app. And remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
