What are conspiracy theories and why are Christians so drawn to them? How widespread are conspiracy theories in the church? What does it mean to think biblically about conspiracy theories? In this episode, we talk with philosopher Mike Austin about the recent book he co-edited QAnon, Chaos, and the Cross.

Dr Mike Austin is a Professor of Philosophy at Eastern Kentucky University. He teaches, writes, and speaks about topics in ethics, family, sports, religion and spirituality, and technology, but always with an eye towards character and human flourishing. He has published 12 books including God, Guns, and America.

Episode Transcript

Sean: What are conspiracy theories, and why are Christians so drawn to them? How should Christians think about conspiracy theories? Our guest today, Mike Austin, is the co-editor of a fascinating new book called “QAnon, Chaos, and the Cross,” in which he has compiled a team of very thoughtful philosophical contributors to weigh into this issue today to help us think biblically about conspiracy theories. Mike, thanks for joining us.

Mike: Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Looking forward to discussing it.

Sean: Yeah, well let's jump in. I'm your host, Sean McDowell.

Scott: I'm your co-host, Scott Ray.

Sean: And this is Think Biblically, a podcast of Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Mike, your training is in philosophy. I'm curious, what motivated you to compile a book on conspiracy theories?

Mike: Yeah, it's interesting. A friend of mine, a Christian publisher, asked him about writing a book. And so I thought about that, but then I thought, I don't know nearly enough to write a book myself on this. So a friend of mine, Greg Bach, actually the co editor, he's used this in intro to philosophy and kind of an intro logic class as a way to tie the whole class together. So it was kind of at his invitation. And then, I mean, of course, as philosophers, and you know, just human beings, concerned with things like truth and knowledge and evidence. And of course, philosophers often pay particular attention to that stuff. And so seeing sort of the explosion and as I'm sure we'll talk about some of the way that some of these theories have become more prominent in some of our churches kind of made me think it could be a good resource for people, both whatever their views are, right? Just to kind of think through these things from a Christian perspective.

Scott: Yeah, Mike, as I looked through the table of contents, I saw probably half a dozen of contributors are graduates of our MA philosophy program here at Talbot. And of course, both you and Greg Bach, your co-editor, are graduates of our program too. So delighted that you had a chance to include so many folks who have the same sort of philosophical background that you and Greg do. But you raise a few concerns about some of the impacts of embracing conspiracy theory. How worried about you are conspiracy theories that conspiracies are dividing the church and affecting our witness to the world?

Mike: Yeah. I mean, the concern I think is part of what motivated me. So I don't, I mean, you know, I'm not like worried that there's some huge crisis here, you know, but I think in some particular churches and maybe denominations there might be. So I think it's often like a case by case basis, but I'm definitely in my experience talking, you know, there's a, I've got a friend who, whose dad is really into this stuff, you know, of Christian family, and that's putting a lot of strain on their relationship. I think churches, a lot of people, sort of, sort of the mixing of maybe Christian imagery and language with some of these conspiracy theories. And I think when we, you know, fair, of course, media and social media can can put a slant all the algorithms, but when people start identifying, you know, Christians, and especially, you know, evangelical Christians with conspiracy theories, I think that, you know, that undermines the we want to we know, we want to be trustworthy, want to be seen as trustworthy, want to have integrity, want to be people, you know, focus on unity and love those things are crucial. And so I think for those reasons, be really careful. Now, that doesn't mean if, you know, if there's conspiracy theory, that's actually true, we shouldn't, you know, discuss that or talk about But I think it seems like a lot of us are jumping on to some of these without enough evidence that In some cases seem highly implausible and so that does concern me. So I'm concerned yeah about the witness part and yeah, just the unity now in my own church. You know, I've had conversations with people who kind of told me they tend to like lean into these theories but we just haven't talked about it that much. Maybe we will now that the books out but–

Sean: Yeah, we're gonna ask you.

Mike: Yeah, we have unity in the midst of that. So anyway, yeah, good, good stuff.

Sean: We're gonna jump into some of these specifically. But I'm also curious, is this kind of a new phenomena in the church? Or is this something that Christians have been susceptible to in the past as well?

Mike: Yeah, of course, as a philosopher, we just can just sit around and think about this. But um, but we had conversations with one of the historian that's in the book, he talks about the satanic panic, like Mike Warnke, and that stuff from the 70s of the eighties and how, you know, a lot of, I mean, in a way, I don't even know if that was like an intentional conspiracy. Like we think of like a group of people getting together and hashing a plan, but it's something that sort of happened. You've got, you have this web of speakers and writers and publishers and maybe looking the other way out of self-interest. You know, this will reveal my age, but, um, I was a missionary for a year after college in Hungary and someone sent my roommate. So this was, gosh, what is it? 1991. So my roommate, like, uh, there wasn't email or, uh, not widespread anyway, no internet yet. Right. Um, that we could get to, but like a copied, you know, Xerox copy of stuff about Procter and Gamble, right. And that all the satanic symbols and they were kind of part of this conspiracy. And that was, you know, when I, that was pretty widespread at that time, those things came, I think what's interesting when you go further back in history, it's not so much conspiracies, but maybe the kind of thinking and approach to issues that sort of provided the soil for conspiracy theories as history moved on. So he's a theological ethicist, Jared Stacy, doing a PhD in Scotland, I believe. His dissertation is on Christianity, politics, and conspiracy theories. So he mentioned that even the things like the witch trials, right farther back in history, some of the things going on there, that wasn't really a conspiracy theory, but you know, there were some parallels and that kind of approach to things, right. Those things are contrary to what they appear. The obvious explanation isn't the true one, things like that. So yeah, I think it's been around for awhile, at least the roots of it. And then maybe since the, at least from my understanding, you know, 50s, maybe 60s and 70s start to see it more.

Scott: - So Mike, how widespread a phenomena is this in the church today?

Mike: - Yeah, it's really interesting. I think that, I think if you, it's not as widespread as you might think if you just got your information from, you know, social media and online, 'cause the algorithms push certain things, but there've been some different surveys done the past few years. I mentioned this in my chapter actually, that LifeWay did a survey in 2021 that 49% of Protestant pastors agreed strongly or just agreed with the statement, I'm going to actually read it so I get it right, "that they frequently hear members of their church repeating conspiracy theories about why something is happening in the US." Now, you know, someone might repeat a theory and not believe it, but at least it's those conversations are present. Evangelical Christians are the most likely people in the to believe that the COVID vaccine is a means of getting microchips introduced into our bodies. 60% of evangelical republicans believe that Antifa is behind the January 6th stuff, not Trump supporters. So yeah, I think it's pretty prevalent. Something like a fourth of Christians at least espouse or believe some of the sort of claims from QAnon. I'm sure we'll get into that. But so it's definitely out there in larger numbers than you might think. I didn't encounter a lot in my personal life apart from what I've talked about with you already. But I think there are churches and places where it's pretty much more influential and widespread.

Sean: Okay, so let's talk about QAnon since you brought it up. First off, what is QAnon? And tell us a little bit about why you think so many Christians tend to embrace this conspiracy theory.

Mike: Yeah, this is something that I'd heard about, you know, back when it first started in the 2017-18, whenever it was, and just ignored it. Like, I tried to ignore things that I don't know why, that you hear about a lot. Maybe just sort of a cynicism about things. And then when they stick around, I'm like, okay, I guess I'll try to learn about it. But yeah, I think, I mean, right now QAnon is, I mean, it's just an explosion of claims and they can't all be true because, you know, they're logically inconsistent, but, you know, backing up a little bit, I think the general idea, I guess, is that there's a cabal. I don't know why it's always the word cabal, but that's the one they use of Satan worshiping, or Satanist pedophiles, I guess, that are sort of operating a deep state. It's made up of people, primarily democratic, politicians, entertainment figures, people in the media, and they're sort of trying to control things through this deep state mechanism. They're the ones that were trying to use the media to discredit Trump. And so Trump sort of is seen by many, at least in QAnon, as the sort of the figure for good, fighting back against this, right? And this is something I didn't know about until I started reading some of the contributors that they put it in, 'cause I just wasn't the focus of my chapter, but I guess there are these two big things. There's this thing called the storm, which is when all these people are gonna be arrested and kind of made accountable for their crimes. And then this thing called the great awakening, which is when people are, everyone's gonna realize that Q is right all along and that there's, then there'll be some kind of utopia. So not everybody that believes some of the QAnon stuff is gonna believe all this, but when you sort of kind of do the core package of the beliefs, that's what it is. And then Q is supposed to be this person who has some kind of high level security clearance. And that gives him or her access to these kinds of things, this kind of insider knowledge.

Scott: So my god, this is fascinating. This makes me so curious about kind of the mental state of people who accept these conspiracy theories. And I say that just in a neutral sense.

Mike: Yeah, for sure.

Scott: What makes people vulnerable to accepting conspiracy theories? And I guess the follow up to that would be, are Christians or other types of religious believers more vulnerable than the person in the average population?

Mike: Yeah, I think, I mean, when I think in general about like why people tend to embrace them, sometimes it's because they're true, right? I mean, that's, you know, to be charitable. I mean, you know, Watergate was true, even though people initially, you know, said no way.

Scott: Yeah, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Mike: Yeah, that's right. That kind of thing. You know, I think human nature, you know, and there's, I haven't looked at a ton of this literature. I'm sure psychologists have a lot to say about this, but you know, we can, I mean, just from our own reflections on thought, I mean, human beings, like we, we want to be special. We want to be in the know, you know, C.S. Lewis talks about, what's he called that? The inner ring in one of those space trilogy, right? We want to be part of that inner group, the special group or something. I think that's part of it. I think broadly speaking. So for some Christians, this would apply some not, but human beings in general, conspiracy theories can give us, I mean fear can move us into that and then people that long for meaning, you know being part of some grander story which of course you know we know from scripture and in Christ that there is this big story that you know the universe is going to go along but people without Christ I think makes them vulnerable to that this good versus evil thing. And people who are Christians, I think that we, I don't know, maybe we want more visible, tangible evidence of this stuff. You know, we want to see this good versus evil in a certain way, or believe that it's playing out in a certain way. So I think a lot of that goes into it. Q, definitely, or QAnon, there's a lot of religious rhetoric in that, which I think makes Christians maybe these days tend to embrace it more. Stuff about sort of spiritual warfare and good and evil and just think that there's gonna be this great awakening. I mean, that should sound familiar, right, to Christians.

Sean: - It does, yeah.

Mike: - So I think that's part of it too. And look, I mean, probably at least in his writing, I never met him, but the person that has the most influence on me as a human being just through the written word would be Dallas Willard, right? And that book, "The Divine Conspiracy" is about just that, right, the divine conspiracy, the kingdom of God. So I think all those things have come into play. And as Christians, we know there's not only a good conspiracy, there's an evil one at work in the world, right, through, yeah, just the, you know, Satan and demons and those kind, you know, that side of the story. So I think there are general things about human nature that lead people to it, and then some things in Christianity that can maybe make us more susceptible, the beliefs that are good and true might lead us to down a path that maybe isn't always true.

Sean: What about the left or the right? Are those on the left politically or those in the right politically more likely? Or are they the same, but they're just different stories or theories they tend to embrace?

Mike: Yeah, it looks like right now, there's more on the right. And that's because I would argue because QAnon is a tends to be a right wing sort of, you know, or politically to the right. But look, there are when you think back to the Trump time, they're when he was president, people on the left, I mean, I think, you know, whatever you make of the Russia stuff, right. People wanted that people on the left wanted that to be true. Right. So that's something that people on the right and the left have, we want the conspiracy that takes down the other guy for the other, you know, we want that one to be true. I mean, you know, you know, even though Hillary Clinton claimed it, there wasn't a vast right wing conspiracy, right, to get rid of her husband, he actually was doing the thing, you know, sexual misconduct in the Oval Office, right? So you can find it on the right and the left. I think right now it tends to be more on the right. But I would think in some ways that's more an accident of history. I can imagine another time period where it would be more on the left.

Scott: So Mike, let me ask you, I'm kind of interested in how you personally view this. Do you hold any beliefs that the wider culture would consider a conspiracy?

Mike: Yeah. (chuckling)

Scott: True confessions here. Yeah, that's right. I mean I'll take the sort of spiritual way out and say I believe in the divine conspiracy.

Sean: I knew it.


Mike: Yeah, yeah, I can't, you know, I mean there actually is a chapter in the book by Christian Miller, a philosopher at Wake Forest, and the title is "All Christians are Conspiracy Theorists," right, so it's intentionally provocative, but in a way it's true. And of course using conspiracy theory here in a not an I mean truth neutral sort of way. I mean we tend to use it as just what's false but yeah I don't think that's right. But yeah I think well look I think you can find– so yeah we'll pick on both sides. So I think that there was a conspiracy so to speak at Fox News to kind of keep their audience happy with the stuff about Trump. During Trump's presidency I think the evidence came out that CNN, right, that there were some emails and memos coming out that they were trying to make him look bad or didn't want to make him look good, right? I believe in those things because now we've got the text, the emails, the documents, right? It's publicly available evidence. It's refutable, right? Somebody could show their false, but they're not, right? They've been vetted. So yeah, that's the easy way out. I think a lot of, I hold a lot of beliefs. I mean, I guess I would say some people who went in their definition of conspiracy theory would talk about it as a pre-modern worldview, right? That those are conspiracy theory beliefs. So I hold a lot of pre-modern views, like that the universe has a point, right? That it's moving somewhere, there's meaning and purpose from God in that. So, in that sense, yes. The other stuff, I honestly have had friends who have gone down the rabbit hole about the 2020 election and I just suspend judgment, I guess, until I have to actually investigate something. So those things jump to mind.

Sean: That's fair enough. In some ways, you've kind of been hitting at this answer, but make it crystal clear to us when you think we should believe a conspiracy theory. What– so we're presented with an idea, how should we approach it? And at what point you say, you know what I'm in? I actually believe it. I'm going with a minority here. I think a conspiracy is at play.

Mike: Yeah, I think, you know, I want to start off and say, Well, you've got to have good evidence. And of course, got to say more than that, because everybody thinks they have good evidence for their views. But. um, I'm a philosopher. so I really do, right?

Sean: Of course.

Mike: No. You think through the sources of our beliefs and evidence. It could be perception, our experiences, testimony, memory, rational insight, and relevant experts. Not that they are always right, but those things are important. I think we've got to take all those into account. I think one thing that's common among conspiracy theories right now is that they often seem to be unfalsifiable, right? That there's nothing that could get somebody to, there's always like a story to tell or an ignoring of counter evidence. So you know, it should be, you should be able to be proven wrong, right? And if there's nothing that could change your mind about a proposed conspiracy theory, then I think that's a problem. Now, I'm not saying that that's true of all beliefs, like I don't, but I think in this realm where it's, you know, they're controversial and often, yeah, just sort of the whole structure of how these things work and are propagated, you want to do that. And look, I think as Christians we want to, in good faith, say yeah, I mean, I'd be willing to have my, I mean, I don't think it's ever going to happen, I can't imagine it, but if somebody could prove the resurrection didn't happen, that would, I wouldn't be a Christian. I don't think that's going to happen. I'm not worried about it, but we have to, you know, I mean I can't imagine, you know, giving that up.

Sean: Sure.

Mike: So sure, as you can tell, I'm sort of struggling with that question, like the unfalsifiability. I think in principle Christianity is falsifiable. I guess that's what I'll say. I just don't think in practice that will, that that's going to happen.

Sean: Sure.

Scott: So Mike, tell me a little bit about How people protect themselves from adopting a false conspiracy theory. What antenna should people have up to recognize, you know, besides, you know, besides our intuition that this just sounds crazy. But help our listeners, you know, protect themselves in this way.

Mike: Yeah, I think that's, I mean, this is almost my answer to everything at the beginning, is that that we really need to be putting our time and effort and energy in becoming, you know, what C.S. Lewis called "little Christs," right? That we're deepening our union with Jesus, you know, as Christians we know Jesus is the truth, right? And as we are more deeply united with him, we're going to be growing in the moral and intellectual virtues, and I think those are the things that can protect us, right? If I'm intellectually curious, intellectually humble, intellectually courageous, if I'm also humble, compassionate, patient, those kind of things in the moral and spiritual realm, that's going to protect me. Having an understanding of just basic reasoning, rules of logic, you know, we have just like four or five pages at the back of the book, kind of a guide to reasoning, informal logical fallacies, being able to recognize good and bad reasoning, that can help us. I think being willing, how to protect yourself, so let's say that I think this conspiracy theory started to really sound plausible to me, then being willing to ask the hard questions and being humble enough to accept answers that I don't want might be, that's going to be important. So getting out of trying to find people who disagree and saying, "Give me your best argument against this." And I would say guarding against, I think this is what worries me about unity in the church and fidelity of our witnesses. It seems like people that by end of this, there's real potential here for it to become an obsession and even a form of idolatry. Where I think, and so the friend of mine from church is dead, it's almost like he's an evangelist for conspiracy theories, right? And yet more than Christ. And I think that when it's becoming something that is taking over our lives, our energy, then that's a cause for concern, right? We've just got to start accepting that we can't know everything and that we're not supposed to know everything and that we've got to really– this is why it goes back to union with Christ, like what are the things we've only got limited time to do this kind of thing to look into apologetics questions or theological questions or ethical ones or conspiracy theories or political whatever it is, what are the ones that may be the questions God wants me to take off the shelf and dig into and the ones that I should just leave alone? I think that's important.

Scott: That's good.

Sean: It's an interesting response and it makes a lot of sense that rather than saying buy this app, and this will help you not avoid a conspiracy theory, it's more about becoming a certain kind of person, seeing the world a certain way, developing certain virtues is really the best defense. I like that. What about talking with somebody? What if you see somebody and you just know they're embracing something that's a conspiracy theory that is not true. How would you suggest talking to them, not talking to them? is social media a good way to enter into this debate?

Mike: Yeah, the social media thing. Just, even though I'm active on it, and I've tried to like– I've actually learned from mistakes over the past seven or eight years kind of how to engage there. In general, I don't think it's the best, right? I'd rather talk to somebody face to face or, you know, screen to screen even like video or on the phone, whatever. But I think we have– Look, I think we have to start and just come from an open and humble place and think, okay, they may be right. Like, especially if it's something I don't know much about, and I'm just going off of my gut reaction, that sounds so maybe it's right. Right. So start asking them questions, right? Don't attack or belittle them. I think it's really easy to do that these days where we're more cynical, more abrasive, right? That sort of the way we are on social media has seeped into the way we talk to each other. So I would be trying to go in open and asking questions. And you know there's a, actually I think it's from somebody, your Biola colleagues, Tim Muehlhoff is one of them, they've got this four step communication process, right? So I ask questions, I tell them what I heard, I say what you said here resonated with me, here's where we agree, and then they say here's something to add, that I'd like to add if I could. And so I think, you know, he, I think it is Tim that tells a story in the book of a colleague who was really concerned about the vaccines, right? That like she had done some research online and, and to start the conversation with realizing if I were in your shoes, I would be the same way. Like if I really thought the vaccines were a danger, I'd want to tell my family, friends, and loved ones. And like realizing that that's a good thing, right? You might disagree about the fact of the matter but that person's concern for you and others is good, right? It's just maybe it's not grounded in truth, right? And so but you start talking about those things and talking through them. I think that's the key thing. And I think that we're so, this is something else from Dallas Willard, I try to talk about this with my students because you know teaching ethics classes, it's controversial stuff. But I say, I would say if you're going to talk to somebody who embraces a theory like this, try to go in and try to model for them that rather than like face to face in a debate, you're trying to win and score rhetorical points, try to see it as a mutual quest for what's true, sort of shoulder to shoulder looking out together, trying to understand each other and your views and why you hold them. And then I think a great question– I was trying to find where I got this question because I didn't come up with it, but I couldn't. But it's one I've tried to use as in any of these controversial or polarizing issues is, is ask the person, what's one thing you think that people who disagree with you really need to think about or that, or, you know, whether that they're missing, right? Because then maybe you can get to really the heart of what's going on. And often are embracing of a lot of not just conspiracy theories, but a lot of our views that we embrace, they tend to be more gut level, and then we just hold them. We never really thought about them that much. And so I think that can do a service to the person you're talking to try to do some of that reflection if they haven't before.

Scott: Sounds like gut intuition, followed by confirmation bias.


Mike: Yeah, I mean, that's what happens with a lot of this stuff, right? And I tend to be as a philosopher, like my initial when I start looking at stuff, it is like an intuitive that sounds right to me or that sounds wrong. And then I maybe reread or write something to figure out what I actually believe. And, you know, sometimes I've changed my mind. Sometimes I don't.

Sean: Mike, you've been on our podcast before and you know, our focus, hence the name is Think Biblically. So in some ways, you've already been answering this question. But what does it mean to think biblically about conspiracy theories? What teachings or scriptural passage should we bring to bear on the question of how we approach conspiracy theories today?

Mike: Yeah, so I think this first one might be kind of obvious, but look, we look at what the conspiracy theory is, you know, the claims it's making. Do any of those things violate scripture or the character of God? And if the answer is yes, then for us, that's an easy, can't be true. But I think most of the time it's not like that. The conspiracy theories don't just clearly violate, you know, the Bible or some teaching of scripture. I think more about us. So yeah biblical way to restart we approach them I guess in faith right because if if it's true that a lot of the motivation is fear or anxiety or you know those kind of things or confirmation bias or all sorts of things then we've got to make sure that we're approaching it these questions these theories with a deep trust in God. I know it sounds sort of cliche-ish but it's one of those things that if we just take some time to reflect, am I trusting God? Am I trying to look for an explanation for the way things are going in society that, you know, that can make me feel better or am I really trying to see God and what's true and then put that into practice? I think this is a, I reread the book when I got the author's copy a couple weeks ago, because you know, when an edited compilation, it's not all your stuff. So you're like, I don't remember what's in here.


Mike: So I do that with my– the books that I write actually do the same thing. Somebody will ask me about a book. What did you on chapter five of your book on this? I don't know. I wrote that five years ago. But I look, I think, biblically gossip and slander, there's still sins, right. And I think that conspiracy theories. Yeah, they violate that, right? A lot of them. And so I think we have to approach them with a proper care instead of just jumping in or advocating them, you know, so that's one thing. And then I think, two, people who have a bent against them, it's easy for us to maybe belittle or attack people, right? So that sort of disrespect, not gossip and slander, and just sort of verbally degrading people, that's a sin too. So that's important. But I really think hope is important biblically, right? What are we hoping in? We're hoping in God's kingdom, not hoping in Q, or I'm not hoping in the next president, right or left. I'm not saying those things don't matter, but our ultimate hope is in Christ and his kingdom that it is coming and it will come fully. Then I think in my, I got one other thought about this I guess, it's predictable for me in all the work I've done on humility, writing and then sometimes actually trying to grow in it, is that I think we just have to accept that there's stuff that we aren't going to understand or know.

Sean: There we go. Yup.

Mike: And when that's the case, we can suspend judgment. So I've really tried, you know, and I think for, especially for people in philosophy, theology, apologetics, we kind of want to have a view about everything. And I think just to say, you know, I don't know, I haven't read about that. I might say, look, my initial reaction is, I doubt that's true, but I don't know. And so I think I mentioned this in the book, I was talking to a friend and he was diving deep into the 2020 election stuff like videos and stuff and you know he was sending me videos from youtube and things like that and he said you know “God's promised to lead us into all truth” and so he's trusting that God will lead him into truth here but i think that's a misappropriation of that passage right or that scripture. I mean God doesn't promise that He's gonna– that we're gonna know anything we want to know. I mean I could try to learn about I don't know something in physics but I'm not going to be able to do it, right? I can't know what happened on, I mean, you know, I guess I'm rambling, but you understand the point?

Sean: Yeah, absolutely.

Mike: The idea is that, yeah, we are human, finite, dependent beings, so yeah, God's going to lead us into truth, but I don't know if that means that if I want to know something, God hasn't promised He's going to help me know it, right? There are things that, yeah, it's just not that kind of promise. So those are things that jump to mind, And I guess, yeah, I think, I mean, the Bible kind of calls us into account, right? The things that we tend to want to believe and be sinful desires, that might be a good thing to reflect on biblically sinful desires that are leading me to this, wishful thinking, that kind of thing.

Sean: That’s great.

Mike: So, yeah, those are the things that jump to mind when I think about a biblical approach to these things.

Sean: Yeah, Now that's great stuff in the book. I appreciate that you have Tim Muehlhoff in there, who's a Biola prof talking about communication. You have the history of conspiracy theories. You have all these different angles. They're not really long chapters. They felt like they were five, seven, maybe eight pages, kind of quick reads right to the point. So what we do here on this podcast is we want to think biblically about everything. Saw your book. I was like, oh, I know Mike's a thoughtful guy. Think biblically about conspiracy theories. It's a helpful, interesting book. Definitely want to recommend to our viewers. So again, our guest today is Mike Austin, and the book is “QAnon, Chaos, and the Cross.” Mike, thanks so much for joining us.

Mike: Yeah, thanks guys. I appreciate it. It's good to talk to you. This has been an episode of the podcast, Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture. The Think Biblically podcast is brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. We offer programs in Southern California and online, including our Masters in Christian Apologetics now offered fully online. Check out biola.edu/talbot to learn more or just search Biola Apologetics and you'll find it. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please give us a rating on your podcast app and consider sharing it with a friend. Thank you for listening and remember, think biblically about everything.