Biola UniversityThis week, Scott is joined by Erik Thoennes, Professor of Theology at Talbot School of Theology.
- Smartphone Regret Among Parents: A new survey reveals most parents regret giving their kids smartphones and social media too early—many now see platforms like TikTok and Snapchat as more harmful than alcohol or even guns.
- Assisted Suicide and the Slippery Slope: A New York Times op-ed warns that limiting euthanasia to the terminally ill won’t last; cultural emphasis on autonomy may push boundaries further.
- Can Moms Really Have It All?: A new wave of voices—this time from the political right—encourage women to pursue careers and motherhood.
- Listener Question: Can Biola Be Trusted?
- Listener Followup on AI Chatbots in Medicine
- Listener Question: Should I Be Worried That My Teen Is Drawn to Catholicism?
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] A new survey of parents of adolescents and their views of smartphones. A New York Times article points out the slippery slope for assisted suicide and euthanasia, and a new source of encouragement for moms to have it all when it comes to career and family. We'll discuss these stories, and we'll tackle some of your questions. Great questions, as usual, and sitting in for Sean today is my Talbot colleague in theology, Dr. Erik Thoennes. This is a Think Biblically weekly cultural update from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Erik, so glad to have you back with us. Always appreciate your insightful wisdom, and with a nice dose of passion to go along with it. So-
Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott.
Scott Rae: Really.
Erik Thoennes: I love being with you.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Here's story number one, has to do with, an article in New York Times entitled: We Don't Have to Give In to the Smartphones. Continuing with the work of NYU social psychologist Jonathan Haidt, who, by the way, author of a groundbreaking book that we highly recommend called The Anxious Generation, and his colleagues, one of whom is the CEO of the Harris Poll, Will Johnson. They report on a two-year investigation, one from last year, a survey of the kids, which we commented on. A survey, just to remind you, a survey of over 1,000 gen- members of Gen Z found that near... That many young people feel trapped, tethered to digital products like TikTok, Chat- Snapchat, and others. Nearly half of all participants expressed regret about having access to many of the most popular me- social media platforms so early in their lives. But now, Erik, the [chuckles] really interesting part was a survey of the parents of these adolescents. Again, a national survey, over 1,000 parents who have children under the age of 18, and here's, here's what the study concludes: "We find widespread feelings of entrapment and regret. Many parents gave their children smartphones and social media access early in their lives, yet many wish that social media [chuckles] had never been invented, and overwhelmingly, they support new social norms and policies that would protect kids from online harms. Almost a third of parents whose children have social media believe they gave their child access to social media too young, and 22% feel similarly for smartphones. Interestingly, for both technologies, only 1% of parents thought they had waited too long to introduce them." Now, the question that the article raises: Why did parents make those decisions to give their kids these devices so early, even pre-adolescence? Becau- And they point out, in the early 2010, there was this pervasive sense of techno-optimism, they call it. The, the idea that these technologies were gonna provide only good things with not a lot of downsides, and that they would give kids an advantage in the, in the new digital world that was emerging. On top of this was huge social pressure, which parents got from other parents and from their kids, especially from their peers, not to be the ones left out. But what we discovered later in the decade of the 2010s, we found out that children who grew up with smartphones and social media were actually not better adapted. In fact, they were becoming more anxious, depressed, isolated, sedentary, and unable to focus. Now, the article concludes with the author's suggestion of four norms that should govern digital technologies for kids. And I, it make... I, as soon as I read these, Erik, I wondered, you know, how many parents are gonna have the backbone to actually do this? But first, delay smartphones until high school, delay social media until 16, phone-free schools, and finally, I think the most important one of these is giving kids something better to do, like free play, more independence and responsibility in the real as opposed to the digital world. So Erik, I, you know, you've got, you've got kids that are quite a bit younger than mine. I think a couple of yours are up and out of the house, but you've got two that are not still, and you raised kids... Now, granted, you adopted them a little, a little older, but you raised them in a lot of this, the 2010s era when smartphones were just coming of age. So I'm really curious to hear your take on this, 'cause we didn't wrestle with this with our kids, 'cause they, you know, they were- grew up at the tail end of the millennial era, but yours, I think, are a little bit different.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, I think just that difference between the ages of our kids makes a really significant difference. Not that yours didn't have those challenges, but mine grew up in a culture immersed in it as soon as we brought them to the United States, and even before. But what I found fascinating about the stats in that New York Times article was, in answer to that question, when I think about my child's experience growing up, I wish blank had never been invented. [chuckles] And the first one, 72% of the parents said they wish mature online content, I'm assuming that's mostly pornography, had never been invented. But TikTok and Twitter were the same as guns. [laughing]
Scott Rae: [chuckles] Wow.
Erik Thoennes: Parents wish guns had never been invented as much as they wish TikTok and Twitter had never been invented, and Snapchat is just a little behind guns at 60%. Alcohol is 57%. So they're seeing TikTok, Twitter, and Snapchat as more harmful to their children than alcohol, and Instagram's right there. And what's [chuckles] fascinating is... I mean, you, when you and I were growing up, our parents probably most feared bicycles-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: ... Giving us bicycles, 'cause we were gonna fall and break something, which we typically did, which is probably, in the long run, good for us. But bicycles are only 9%, 'cause I don't think kids ride them anymore. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... Well, they do now. [laughing] They do now. They ride, they ride the electric ones.
Erik Thoennes: That's right, and almost kill people-
Scott Rae: Which they, which they ride in the middle of the street.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] I know, and run pedestrians over. But, but isn't that amazing? I have often said, I would rather give my child a loaded handgun than an unfiltered, unmonitored cellphone. Yeah, I think-
Scott Rae: Well, I think a lot of the parents would agree with that.
Erik Thoennes: Yes! Well, statistically, [laughing] that's actually true. That used to sound like a radical statement when I'd make it, but now, statistically, most parents agree with me on that, and it's just amazing to me. But as you were r- introing this so well, I couldn't stop thinking of Romans 7. I... Where Paul says, "I do the very thing I hate. What I want to do, I don't do. What I want to do, I don't do," and that conflict is so evident here. Parents hate what it's creating. Kids now are unavoidably having to face up to the fact that, "Yeah, I'm depressed, I'm lonely, I'm disconnected," but you just can't get off of it. And, and so it's just fascinating that, like you said, will you have the backbone or the conviction or the ability even to do this without something drastic happening? And you asked about our kids. We didn't give our oldest a cellphone until... A phone at all, until she was 16 and was going to a public school, and we really felt like we needed that, but even then, it was filtered and monitored. But I'll tell you, Scott, we didn't give our other kids phones until they were 18, [chuckles] which seems-
Scott Rae: Wow
Erik Thoennes: ... Amish. I mean, it just seems- [laughing]
Scott Rae: Yeah, but you seem like you're a dinosaur.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] I know! And they were so angry about it, but even my 16-year-old, when I gave her a phone, I hated what it did to our relationship because so much of my interactions with her became, "Get off your phone. Why are you on your phone all the time? Put your phones down." And, and just trying to monitor and regulate it when some of the most brilliant people in our society have engineered this thing to get her on there as much as humanly possible.
Scott Rae: Yeah, and don't allow their own kids on it.
Erik Thoennes: Yes. They, [laughing] they think it's insane that we let our kids on it. And so I hate what it does to human relationships. I hate a way, the way it disconnects people from actual embodied experience in relationship with other people. So I just found this fascinating that there's so much awareness, and it's unavoidable, but we're still absorbed in it as ever. It's just a great example of human nature, seeing something as clear as day, but not taking the necessary steps that we should in light of what is so evident.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think the interesting part of the survey that came out to me was that the k- the kids are on it, the average is five hours a day. And I've... I want to think, surely we've got something better to do with our time than five hours a day. You know, Erik, one of the th- I think there are some Gen Z folks that are pushing back on this, and I'm really encouraged to see this. I saw something spring up, you know, a few months ago in a public area. My wife and I go to this place right in our neighborhood. It's got a lot of restaurants around the perimeter and a public, sort of big play area for kids, and a lot of seating, you know, umbrellas and seating, and I saw something I'd never seen before. I saw a group of teenagers, young adults, probably, I don't know, probably 25 or 30 of them, all gathered around in the seating, in the seating area. And they... Some of them had food, some of them didn't. But you know what they were all doing? They were reading books.
Erik Thoennes: [gasps] What in the world? [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing] And, you know, nobody had a phone out. Uh-
Erik Thoennes: They must be in a cult!
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: Some cult or something. [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing] Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to-
Erik Thoennes: What a bunch of weirdos.
Scott Rae: I maybe wanted to check and see if they were Amish.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] I know.
Scott Rae: But-
Erik Thoennes: What in the world?
Scott Rae: ... But I thought this was incredibly encouraging.
Erik Thoennes: Isn't that funny? You got... Yeah, you've got to be radical countercultural to be able to just sit around and read a book.
Scott Rae: And I, you know, and it- and some of what, some of what struck me about this article, too, was what this has done to education. You know, and full disclosure, you know, we are both [chuckles] full-time professors, employed by a Christian university, and we have a, we have a self-interest in maintaining our gainful employment. But, you know, how... Do you, do you- what do you do with phones in your classroom?
Erik Thoennes: We don't do them. [laughing]
Scott Rae: Seriously, so that's-
Erik Thoennes: Oh, years ago
Scott Rae: ... That's public?
Erik Thoennes: Yes, years ago, I said, "We're not doing screens." I tell them the first day, we- almost-
Scott Rae: Computers, computers, too?
Erik Thoennes: Nothing. Because any screen has incredible temptations zooming in and being... Bombarding you all the time. And I actually think there's some- I give them class notes, so they're not constantly trying to write, even though they barely ever-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Use their hands to do that anymore. But I give them class notes, and they take notes in the margins, but I just tell them, "You cannot know God if you don't pay attention to God." And we are the most distracted culture that's ever been. And so I say to them, "My course is going to be a boot camp on attentiveness," because if you don't pay attention to God and the great answers to the questions we're seeking answer from the Bible, you can't truly go deep. You can't be someone who finds those answers in a meaningful, transformative way. So, so no, we get pretty radical. And I have students thank me all the time. At first, they were saying, "Oh, this guy is so backwards, and he's a jerk." But by the end of the semester, almost all the students say, "A little subculture was created in this class that's unusual." And, and so I'm, I'm willing to be considered a backwards idiot so that we can have an attentive, peaceful, undistracted environment. It breaks my heart when I see God being talked about or anything important being talked about, and people scrolling on Instagram at the same time. And it's just stupid to waste your education doing something you could do for free.
Scott Rae: ... Yeah, well, I think, I mean, in some respects, I think, you know, if they are scrolling instead of paying attention, I w- some of that's on the prof-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... For not being engaging. But I think increasingly, faculty members have a, an increasingly difficult job to do to tether- to get people untethered from those so that real learning can take place. And what I'm- what I worry about now is, you know, w- I'd like to eliminate screens in all of my classrooms because I fear instead of Googling an answer to a question I'm raising, they're gonna put AI to work on that. And they might-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Get an answer, they might get an answer more quickly.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: Although increasingly, Google is using AI as well. Now, you sent me a really interesting piece on one solution to this in the educational realm, in bringing back the old blue book. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: And for our, for our Millennial and Gen Z listeners, you may not know what that is. But us baby boomers spent a lot of time writing exams by hand in blue books in classrooms. So what did you like about that piece?
Erik Thoennes: I think that there is something powerful about the physical writing of ideas down in words, and the AI thing is just crazy. There was a great quote in that article, it was in The Wall Street Journal, that said: "Using AI to learn for you is like going to the gym and having a robot lift weights for you." [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: It's completely useless. It disconnects you from the actual process. And to say to a student, I know you can actually have a decent product by typing in a question to chatbot, to a chatbot, but that's not learning. And, and there's a fascinating shift in the product being all that matters instead of the process of learning, which is difficult. And, and you run up against dead ends, and you're not sure how to think out of this problem you're, you're considering, and it- but that's the learning. And along with this, I think what started it... I don't know if your students in the Phil program are like this. They, they probably are at an amazing level of thinking, but my students want study guides for everything. They, they just- they have this instinct, and I think they've been fed this a lot, is, "Just tell me what to write.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: Tell me what to write on, tell me the outline, tell me exactly what questions I need to know. Give me the questions ahead of time." Instead of thinking in a way that's synthetic and summative and actually doing the hard work of thinking, it's all about the product. "Well, why aren't you happy? I gave you what you asked for." No, what I asked for is for you to learn.
Scott Rae: Right.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] And you're not doing that if you're just giving me this computer-generated product.
Scott Rae: Yeah. In, in the Scriptures, to teach in Hebrew, actually literally means to cause- ... Someone to learn.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And that's, that's what- that's how the Bible regards teaching, and so I lament that so many, you know, faculty members, you know, equate talking with teaching.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right.
Scott Rae: Because those are definitely-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... Not the same thing.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.
Scott Rae: But I think what you're talking about is actually causing people to learn, and that's- I think that's the job of a faculty member, to lead students through what can be, at times, a very painful process. And I've, I've been very fortunate. My own field, in ethics, lends itself really well to a s- a more Socratic method of teaching, where, you know, the answer is not always clear, and they've got to wrestle and come up with good reasons. And I tell them routinely, "I am more interested in the reasons you give for your position than the actual position you take, because the reasons tell me how you think of- how you're thinking about it."
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And I realize that, you know, that style is not the- it's not- doesn't fit every discipline. You can't do the biblical languages like that. You know, you can't do- Intro to Accounting doesn't fit very well in that type of scenario. But, I've found it super helpful to take that approach, both with grad and undergrad students. And I taught, you know, team taught in the business school for 25 years. We, we never lectured probably for more than five, 10 minutes at a stretch before we were giving some sort of case and some sort of questions we were posing to engage students.
Erik Thoennes: Right. The re- the relational piece that we were just talking about with the phones really applies here, too, as well, which is why a place like Biola, which is about discipleship, really, in a, in a significant way, equipping men and women to have an impact in the world for the Lord Jesus Christ, that relational aspect of that. So even an accounting professor, who marvels at the beauty of things making sense when you do accounting, is something going on relationally and worshipfully-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... As you study biology worshipfully, and you learn music worshipfully, and mathematics worshipfully, you do this in a way that's marveling at God and the way He created the world and our minds. And so even things that don't lend themselves as much to Socratic methods should still have a relational core that once you enter artificial... I mean, it's called artificial for a reason, artificial intelligence into it, very often the relational piece is gone. And again, it's a disembodied experience that defies good Christian anthropology. Our view of humanity is embodied existence that is done best in relationship as embodied people gather together and learn together.
Scott Rae: Yeah. And, and of course, in the Scriptures, most learning took place in those apprenticeship-style relationships-
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Scott Rae: ... What we would, what we would call, you know, discipleship or mentoring more today.
Erik Thoennes: Right. And the way you model teaching ethics, you're on the board of hospitals, helping them think about medical ethics. You're, you're talking about your raising of your children and trying to be a good husband, and faithful in your church and in leadership at Talbot, and just as a son and a man who, you know, loves his brother enough to give him one of your kid- one of your kidneys. I mean, these things aren't just theoretical when it's in that context, that it's, it's profoundly personal and relational, and like I said, discipleship. And so I know when I went through school-... The ideas I wanted to know and the men and women I learned them from was everything. It really wasn't about-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: Credits, and units, and degrees, and GPA. It was seeing these men and women who had learned to love these ideas and help me to love and learn them, too. That was everything. It was, it was, it was relational, it was communal, it was, it was what it was about.
Scott Rae: I would've listened to some professors read the telephone book. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] That's right, 'cause, 'cause I loved them, and they knew they loved me.
Scott Rae: 'Cause they would've, they would've made it interesting.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] That's right.
Scott Rae: Yeah. All right, here's story number two, Erik. This also comes from The New York Times, taking on a very contested notion in the discussion about the end of life. Here, the author argues that the notion of a slippery slope, which is very contested, in assisted suicide and euthanasia is real and something to be concerned about. This, this week, the New York legislature passed on to the governor a law that would allow for assisted suicide for those with terminal illnesses and six months or less to live. Now, we've commented before on how the law in Canada allows for these things for, conditions other than terminal illnesses, and thereby broadening the eligibility requirements. And the basic argument that the author's making here is that restricting eligibility for assisted suicide and euthanasia to those with terminal illness won't stay that way, and that New York is headed in the same direction that Canada is headed. Now, here's, briefly the logic that undergirds laws that offer only assisted suicide only to the terminally ill. And here I quote the article on this: "It assumes that the dying have entered a unique zone where the normal promises of medicine can no longer be kept, a state of exception where it makes sense to license doctors to deliver death as a cure. The problem is that a situation where the doctor tells you that there's nothing more to be done for you is not really exceptional at all. Every day, all kinds of people are told that their suffering has no medical solution. So a justification for suicide that emphasizes the cry for help that medicine can't answer, the need for control over the uncontrollable, and the desire to cure suffering that doctors can't relieve, will struggle to maintain terminal illness as a special category. There are just too many people in this exceptional position, but with no endpoint to their pain, and the restrictions on assisted suicide for just for terminal illness won't hold up." All right, now there's, there's a lot that we can say theologically about this, about how to approach the end of life. We've talked about this on several other weekly cultural updates. But Erik, I'm interested to know, you grew up in New York, in Connecticut area. You know, what do you, what do you make of the law allowing for assisted suicide in the state for... But restricting eligibility to those with just that terminal illness?
Erik Thoennes: Well, again, I'm, I'm seeing a connection between all of these articles we're gonna be talking about today, and there seems to be such an emphasis in our day of what you prefer your experience and existence be like right now. And, I think the meaning of life becomes the big issue. There was a quote where she says, "Then, too, and the treatments that did help me get better were from the point of view," she talks about a sickness she has, "of the official consensus, much too untested, or weird, or risky for respectable, consensus-driven doctors to safely recommend. Whereas death," and here's the key ar- key quote: "Whereas death is certain, reliable, even from a certain perspective, safe." So if those are your driving values, that you have this experience you're after, then the door's open to, I think... You know, slippery slope can be a fallacy, but it isn't [chuckles] necessarily to notice the way things typically will go. And so I think w- the values we start off with, the meaning of life, the purpose of life, that always includes a significant degree of suffering in this fallen world, is something we need to start these conversations with all the time, or else we end up with nothing but an idea of the quality of life, the way an individual values it or not, and then we have to award that with our laws, opening the door for whatever they think that it- that is.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think the first thing I thought about on this when I read this is there's another reason that the author doesn't point out for the slippery slope being real here. And I think we should be clear for our listeners, too, there's a difference between an emotional slippery slope, which tends to go toward an extreme to evoke an emotional reaction, and a logical slippery slope that, you know, follows logically from the premises already, you know, already in play. This, I think the author is saying this is a logical, slippery slope here. And here, I think the other reason that it's so, is that as long as assisted suicide and euthanasia are considered in the framework that you're describing as a fundamental right, the right to die based on personal autonomy, the right to make life's most personal decisions apart from government interference, if that's true... And I think the Bible, the Bible's cl- it clearly says that's not true, that we are not our own, we are not- we are- we have been bought with a price, and we're- and to deny ourselves means to deny ownership over our own lives. And the Bible is very clear that the, you know, the timing and manner of our death ultimately belongs to God. But if given the cultural context that you describe, then there shouldn't be any eligibility requirements at all for this.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.
Scott Rae: And, and maybe, except maybe we wouldn't allow this for minors.... But it's, it's really striking to me that for anybody other than the elderly with dep- severe depression or serious illness, who's co- who's contemplating suicide, we give them suicide prevention. But once you're in this spec- quote, "special category," we give you suicide assistance.
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Right. I don't know if you noticed at the end of the article, it says, "If you're having thoughts of suicide, call or text 988-
Scott Rae: That's it
Erik Thoennes: ... To reach the National Suicide Prevention-
Scott Rae: That's right
Erik Thoennes: ... Lifeline. And so they're very concerned [chuckles] that this article not put thoughts in the minds of people heading down that road, and so they give you all these resources to prevent it from happening in the midst of- [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Well, and what that, what that suggests is that we really don't believe as a culture that the right to die is a fundamental right.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Exactly.
Scott Rae: We just, we just don't believe that.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And here, I think the article points out, too, that when medicine can't do anything else, doctors should be able to offer something else to their patients, assuming that assisted suicide is what they ought to be able to offer. But doctors can actually offer quite a lot to people-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... For whom medicine can't do anything else to cure.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: There's palliative care, pain management. There's hospice, and there's g- and there's good empirical evidence from Europe that once the restrictions are in place, they eventually get loosened. And Europe's been at this for a lot longer time than we have.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I can't help but think that there's a horrible lie at the core of much of the thinking about this that is a way of avoiding what our mortality is supposed to make us think about. [chuckles] That we can e- we can even somehow get around our impending death. That it's supposed to... If you read Romans 8, the curse brings about death as a judgment that should wake us up to our need to live for something eternal. And so the avoidance of death, being in charge of it to the degree that we feel like we can control it somehow, is enabling us to go down an Ecclesiastes path and just act like we don't have to come to terms with our impending mortality. And so I just I think this issue gets at some really core questions about, again, the meaning of life and the purpose of our existence, and what we're supposed to learn from thinking about death, and not trying to do everything we can to be in charge of it.
Scott Rae: Yeah, we posted actually on Tuesday of this week, a conversation with my good friend Brent Waters, who has been teaching Christian ethics and consulting for a, for a long time on this. And he points out that mortality is simply just a part of being human. It's just in our limits and limitations. We don't wanna face those things. And this... And, and I think there, this is where the idea of death with dignity, I think is almost an oxymoron- ... 'cause there's nothing dignified about the dying process.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: It's, it's horribly undignified. And I say there's nothing dignified about doing an end run around the dying process. What's... The dignity in dying is facing up and leaning into the losses that you're about to experience, and doing it with grace and with courage and with, concern for your neighbors. That it's not, it's... And even at, even at the end of life, it's not all about you. Um-
Erik Thoennes: So true. And, you know, you and I are about the same age, and there's something so good about this growing awareness that I don't have that much longer.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: You know, when we when you and I were 20, we felt immortal, right? We, we had [chuckles] all these massive plans and aspirations. Even then, though, we didn't know, as the Bible says, what tomorrow was gonna hold. We, we didn't know-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: ... If we had the rest of that day! But, but now, it's, it's increasingly unavoidable, and that's good. That's sobering. That makes you think far more circumspectly about the way you live your life, where you redeem the time because the days are evil, and you know you don't have forever.
Scott Rae: You know, I took li- some time ago, when I was preaching on the 90th Psalm, where it says, "Lord, teach us to number our days," I took that literally. And I ca- I said... Earlier in the Psalm, he says, you know, "W- we have, we may have 70 years, maybe 80 if we have vigor." so I said, you know, took- I split the difference and said, "We, you know, get to 75, and multiply that out times 365, and at the end of every month, you write off 30 days on that." And what I did is, every time I would come back to take, to speak that message again, I'd come back to my notes, and I'd have a different calculation of [chuckles] how many days I had left. And it- what really hit home is when I realized I had passed the halfway point.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Yeah.
Scott Rae: It was on, it was, I was on the downhill slope of that. And, you know, I think I'm getting quite a bit closer to that now. But it, but I think it evoked the kind of response... I don't think, I don't think Moses actually had in mind, who authored the Psalm, had in mind that we actually literally count our days, but he wanted the reaction that you get from counting your days, which is exactly what you point out, that I don't have forever to pull this off.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: I don't have forever to accomplish what God wants me to do.
Erik Thoennes: And, and I remember the first time I went to the doctor. I w- I was a wild kid, and I played football for a long time, so I had a lot of injuries, but every time I had one, I know what caused it, and I knew what I needed to do to make it better. I'll never forget, I think I was in my 40s, I went to the doctor for some floaters in my eye, and I said, "Well, what caused this?" And he said, "Age."
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And I said, "What do I, what do I do?" And he said, "Nothing." And I said, "What do you mean, nothing? That's what I'm paying you for, to tell me nothing caused it except getting old, and there's nothing you can do f-" He said, "That's right." He said, "When you take a 15-year-old car in 'cause it's leaking oil-... That's just what it's gonna do. It's a [chuckles] 50-year-old car, you don't fix it. It's just gonna leak oil. [laughs] And so I thought, "That's what I'm paying you for, my church bit's paying for." So yeah, but that realization that, oh, yeah, I'm not in charge of this life of mine. The I'm thinking of a woman in our church who, for 10 years, was basically dying in the midst of our church family. And the way she died as her- as muscular dystrophy started to take away her abilities, was heroic, and it was faithful, and it was hopeful. And I am not at all minimizing the pain, and the completely understandable instinct to say, "I want out of here. This is so hard." It- her husband and her daughter just had to do almost everything physically for her, but the way she died in front of us was an incredible grace and incredible encouragement as she grew... And just like the Bible says, "As the outward man is wasting away, the inward one is getting stronger," and she was a model of that for us. And, and so we read her blog posts [chuckles] and what she said and wrote before, and we're still encouraged, and even though she's with Jesus now. So, so yeah, we can, [lips smack] we can wanna be so in control that we think we can subvert this process of... Well, like you said, in a fallen world, death is something we all need to come to terms with.
Scott Rae: All right. That's, I think that's a good benediction for this story. That's great stuff. So I re- I refer our listeners back to our Tuesday podcast with Brent Waters, speaks to some of these things, too, about, for example, how aging is now treated as a disease in the culture, which assumes that it's something that can be cured and fixed-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Which, not, we can only do that if we cease to be fully human.
Erik Thoennes: You know, I'm increasingly concerned about the embarrassment of age in our culture. Other cultures value age. The Bible certainly does. It assumes there's some wisdom, hopefully, that comes with it. And, I, you know, I heard a preacher recently say, "Oh, I had a birthday last week, and I turned..." And he wouldn't even say how old he was.
Scott Rae: [laughs]
Erik Thoennes: And what is that? And, and so at some point, if you're trying that hard to look and act younger than you are, isn't that bearing false witness to some degree there? [laughs]
Scott Rae: ... Something, Yeah. Something like that.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: That's too convicting. I think we better-
Erik Thoennes: [laughs]
Scott Rae: ... We better, we better move on. [laughs] And all right, here's... This is story number three, is one that I wish, I wish I could pry your wife, Donna, away to have participated in this with us. But this is an, I say, an old story from a new source. This piece in The Atlantic magazine about mothers and careers. [lips smack] "For some time, progressives told women that they could have it all: career, family, and a personal life, and they should lean into challenging jobs while being mothers at the same time." Now, they were, in part, I think, reacting to views that women with children fo- would forgo careers and be committed to being mothers to their children. And after a while, progressive women started to push back on this notion that you could have it all. Opting, as the article says, in- opting instead for raging, quiet, quitting, or as what they call [chuckles] leaning out. But today, mothers are being encouraged to lean in again, but this time, not from progressives, but more from folks on the right. Now, to be fair, some conservatives are still making the argument that mothers should deprioritize their careers when they have families, but others are encouraging mothers to go for it and to have it all, even though they might have rejected the progressive advice originally offered more than two decades ago. [lips smack] For example, one woman put it like this: They said, "It's a lie that you need to end a child's life," a reference to having an abortion, "to have the career that you want." [lips smack] Another person put it like this, with four children, And by the first person I described has six children. She put it like this. She said, "I am highly offended by the modern-day misogyny that says you can't have a career and a family, so pick career. There is no difference," she says, "to turn-of-the-century misogyny, which says you cannot have a home and a career, so stay home." She, she go ons, goes on to say, "I think especially now, in the right wing, this message is coming across like you're either an evil feminist career woman or you're a mother." She said, "I'm like, what about women who want to do both of those things?" Another woman insisted that, I'm quote, "I'm a better mom because I'm not at home 24 hours a day with my children." The article concludes that women can have it all, even though for many women, that's much harder than it sounds. All right, now, I am really interested on this. I know what my own wife would say about this, but I'm curious to know, as you said before we went on air-
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... You had a long conversation with your wife, Donna, about this, and she was quite passionate-
Erik Thoennes: She was, yeah
Scott Rae: ... In, [chuckles] in her response to this. So tell us, tell our listeners about that.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, we had a great conversation this morning. I brought up what you and I were gonna talk about and some of these articles that have been going around, and she became really passionate, and I said, "Uh, you need to join us." But beautifully, she was actually meeting with a younger woman to do discipleship with her. And, and honestly, I'm telling you, the best thing I've read on it is an article my wife, Donna, wrote for Met- Family Ministry Today, that you could find on their blog, called "Teach What is Good," and it, and it's just talking about Titus 2. And again, like our other articles, it- there's this number one priority of what's fulfilling to me, what's self-actualizing to me, what's, what's going to make me feel like my life matters and is meaningful, rather than the big goals of glorifying God, discipleship, living in a way where you're helping people mature in Christ. And the first question is not, "Is this making me feel the way I want to right now?" or, "Is this fitting some preconceived idea of who I am?" but, "What has God called me to?" And like all Christians, he calls us to discipleship. And so Donna writes this article in Family Ministry Today called What is Good... "Teach What is Good," and she highlights-... The passage from Titus 2, which is so interesting, because in all these articles about trad wives and sort of the biblical view of women, n- I didn't see one quote this passage from Titus 2, where this idea is directly addressed, where he's talking about how we live as God's people. And this is the main passage Donna highlights in her article, where we're to teach what is good, and, that's for the men and the women, but it's about discipleship. And he tells the women, Paul does, because he's so concerned that the women are cared for, which is amazing, especially in that time, that they're being discipled. And he doesn't tell Titus to do the discipleship. He instructs them to teach the older women to do the discipleship, and he says, "Tell them to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, submissive to their husbands, that the Word of God may not be reviled." Not so that they'll be self-actualized and fulfilled, but so that the Word of God- ... And the Gospel will advance in the world. And so I just love that Donna wasn't able to join us, 'cause she was meeting with a young lady, doing the very thing that [chuckles] passage talks about. My whole life, there's been an awareness of these kinds of teachings, but we are so quick to say, rightly, "Well, it's not exclusive, and it doesn't mean women can't work outside the home." And the Proverbs 31 woman does all kinds of things. She has a business, she does... So this isn't exclusive, but there is a priority on the role a woman is able to play as a wife and a mother that creates an environment of amazing Gospel-advancing discipleship that we need to continue to value. Tons of overlap between what men and women are called to, but there is distinct aspects of what they're called to as well, as seen in passages like this, that are just beautiful, that we need to celebrate and not try to explain away.
Scott Rae: Yeah, now I'm sympathetic to young families who, particularly ones who may be trying to, you know, mortga- you know, pay a mortgage in California, that it's just, it's incri- increasingly really challenging to do that without having two incomes. And I'm sympathetic to, you know, women who, you know, had, you know, had a career before having children and want to continue that, and they find... You know, they may, they may find ways for, you know, for extended family or for, you know, very good care for their kids. And I, and I think then they're meaningfully involved in parenting their kids as well. So I'm very sympathetic to that, and I would not, I would not say that, you know, every w- every woman who has a child ought to stay home full-time with them. Though I think that's, that's, that's a great thing if you can.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: And, and I was just, you know, I was just with a couple not too long ago, where, she had just stopped working in order to stay home with her one-year-old child. They're getting ready to have another one. And I commend them for that. You know, I hope, I hope they're able to pull that off. They live in Newport Beach area, which is a very [chuckles] expensive area. I hope they're able to pull that off financially. But I... So I'm sympathetic to people who say it's just the financial realities are just tougher than they were 30, 40 years ago, and I think there's something to that. On the other hand, I'd wa- I'd want us to come back and hit the bigger picture of this that you're describing. I think the only place that you can have it all is in Heaven.
Erik Thoennes: That's good.
Scott Rae: And, and I think some of the women in this article acknowledge that, you know, having a meaningful career and, you know, having a rich family life requires sacrifices on both ends. Here's, here's the point that I, that I think we miss sometimes, and that is, I think those sacrifices also apply to men.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: And men don't get a pass on having to navigate this balance as well. You know, I s- I spent, I spent probably a decade when my kids were playing sports, and I was coaching their sports, where I didn't go... I didn't go to any professional meetings, didn't present any papers, didn't do any public speaking that required overnight travel, because I just- I did not wanna be away. I did not wanna look back on those years and say, "Oh, shoot, I missed it." and that... I say my writing took a hit, you know? I, and I lost ground professionally because of that, but I don't have any regrets about that. And I, and I think men, I think men don't get a pass-
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right
Scott Rae: ... On having to, having to deal with this as well, and I think that's unfair to put, to put this entirely on women to have to make that happen.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: Erik, we have a, I have a really good friend who, he would come and talk to our business students every semester. He was in, he was in line to become the next CEO of the fifth-largest advertising agency in the world, in New York. They sent him to Southern California, to a city he'd never heard of, in Co- [chuckles] Costa Mesa, to run their ad agency for there for a couple of years as part of his training, and then he was gonna come back to New York and, you know, continue on the CEO track. And he- and so two years became five, became seven or eight, and then finally, when the New York office said, "You know, it's time to come back, and let's get back on track," he said, "No." and I remember, I remember he... I, we were- we spent a lot of time together during the time he was wrestling with that decision, and he basically said, "You know, I love driving 10 minutes to work. I love being home for dinner every night. I love going to my kids' games." he said, "I want a life." And he recognizes... You know, he's a believer, and recognized that there was something significant, choices he was gonna have to make. And he tells, he tells our students just so helpfully, he said, "If you wanna g- if you wanna go for it and be the CEO of a public company, you go for it. And if you wanna have a dynamic family life, you go for it." But he said, "You, you have to make choices."... Regardless of how you balance those, you have to ma- you have to make choices.
Erik Thoennes: Right, and you were a great example to me, in that. I mean, I re- I remember we were meeting one time and just talking about the trajectory of my role as a prof at Talbot, and you said to me, "When, when my kids were home and we were raising our kids," just what you said, I pulled way back and did very little publishing, very little traveling. And that was so freeing to me [chuckles] as... From the guy who's my boss, who [chuckles] who is requiring that I am productive, to nevertheless say, "You have some different priorities right now that deserve more of your attention than some of these things that are part of your job," that you can't neglect entirely. But i- and what you're pointing to is different seasons of your life as well.
Scott Rae: That's right.
Erik Thoennes: And not only the ec- not only the economic realities, but there are seasons of your life where there are times in our marriage where Donna was the primary breadwinner, and it doesn't mean that husbands don't do things that aren't considered- that are considered domestic and vice versa. But at the same time, I do think the Bible does have some distinctives that it wants to make as priorities for women as well, and for men as well. Like, men are, I think, called to have a sense of responsibility, to have a leadership and headship in the family, and if that's not making me feel fulfilled, well, I need to do it anyway. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: I don't get to say, "Well, that's not really me." That, that sort of overemphasis for both men and women on what's making me feel the way I want to, I think is a core part of the problem. In all these [chuckles] things we're talking about, that for men and women, stepping up to what God calls us to, regardless of how I may feel about it in the moment, is essential for us. And, and having aspirations so beyond how it makes me feel or whether I think it's meeting, w- you know, how I'm wired, sometimes I'm called to do things that don't come naturally at all to me. And sometimes that's just simply getting up and going to work that I know is gonna be a hard day. So, so I think for men and women, not leading with fulfillment as my m- priority, but ultimate fulfillment, like you said, [chuckles] with... Heaven's the only place you have everything. I- ultimate fulfillment is where we're heading, and there's sacrifices along the way to that ultimate fulfillment.
Scott Rae: I remember, again, talking to my friend Brent Waters, who's an incredibly insightful theologian. I asked- I told him one time, I said, "Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go do... I got a couple things that are on my bucket list that I wanna do." and he said, "You know, my bucket list is what God wants me to do."
Erik Thoennes: There you go.
Scott Rae: And I thought, "That's, that's good, that's good insight."
Erik Thoennes: That's good.
Scott Rae: And he said it in a gentle way, but I took it, that he was being pretty direct with me-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... About what belonged on my bucket list.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Well, let me give my wife a few words here. Let me just read straight from her article. She says this: [chuckles] "The younger woman in this Titus 2 passage should also be trained to be creating and maintaining her home, to love caring for her family, and to delight in the domestic sphere, because it's the main context in which love and kindness occur. The older woman is also to teach the younger to be kind, not only to those within her household, but perhaps also by welcoming outsiders into her home." So it's a hospitality context for discipleship, for ministry, for outreach, and it's not just about fulfilling my dreams. This whole tradwife movement [chuckles] that's going on is fascinating along these lines as well, where there's a desire for, you know, this idea of being okay with being home. I read an article by a philosopher once, and she said, "Any woman who chooses to stay home and being a wife and a mother as her primary vocations is immoral." [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Wow!
Erik Thoennes: That that is an immoral-
Scott Rae: Oh
Erik Thoennes: ... Decision because of all the women who fought to free her from that, and she's betraying those women who opened the doors for her to break the glass ceiling. But there's an immorality now seen. I remember we had a friend, and she dropped [chuckles] her kids off. She had her baseball hat on and sweats, and this woman at the public school, who was a counselor, looked at her with disdain and said, "Oh, are you one of those stay-at-home moms?" In a dismissive [chuckles] way-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... As if she was selling her soul [chuckles] to do such-
Scott Rae: That's like
Erik Thoennes: ... An incredibly poor thing.
Scott Rae: Yeah. It's like she was a Stepford wife.
Erik Thoennes: That's right. [laughing]
Scott Rae: So.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Well, I think we need- yeah, I think we need to, I think, give affirmation to, you know, women who are staying home. That's a great thing. While at the same time, I think acknowledging that, you know, there- the, some of the financial pressures are ac- are pretty tough today, and require navigating this in a way that I think you and I didn't have to.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Um-
Erik Thoennes: I sent you a book that I [chuckles] saw that I haven't, I haven't-
Scott Rae: Oh, yeah, that was so good.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: That was so good.
Erik Thoennes: I haven't read the book, but the title cracked me up. It's called When Mothers Work, and then the subtitle is [chuckles] Loving Our Children Without Sacrificing Ourselves. [laughing] And I just laughed at that, as if that is remotely possible, especially for a woman who tremendously sacrifices her very body to have those [chuckles] children-
Scott Rae: Exactly, exactly
Erik Thoennes: ... [chuckles] right? So you take a massive sacrificial hit simply in having a child biologically, but then every day of your life, for the rest of your life, is concerned about these children. Losing sleep, and praying, and shedding tears, and shelling out lots of money, that you could be spending on vacations in Cabo, and [chuckles] so all these things, of- it's sacrificial. That's the point we're making, that this- no, sacrifice is what we're called to, and we find life in that. "It's better to give than receive," Jesus says. And so sacri- living self-sacrificially is living out-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Jesus, and that's the most fulfilling way to live for a husband or a wife or a mother or a father or anybody who's seeking to be a disciple faithfully.
Scott Rae: ... Yeah, great stuff. All right, you ready to answer a few questions?
Erik Thoennes: Yes, sir.
Scott Rae: We got great questions today.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: Here, this is one, from a person who attended our, conference last week. "Some public Christians are canceling Biola on social media podcasts, stating that they can no longer support Biola or recommend that anyone send their kids to study there. They claim that Biola is no longer a trusted, conservative, evangelical institution. I'd like to hear any response you have to these charges." Okay. As you might expect, I have a lot to say about this.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: But, uh-
Erik Thoennes: I thought you would. [laughing]
Scott Rae: I'll, I'll let, I'll let you go first here.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Well, that's great. Well, yeah, the reason Scott said that is because he's, in many ways, the point man of our fidelity to Scripture and to our mission and what we're called to, and he's advisor to the president and that, so if that... If you're wondering [chuckles] why Scott put it that way, that's why. But yeah, one of the reasons I love that my kids have gone to Biola, and there's nowhere I'd rather they go, and my son probably is gonna be heading to Talbot, and is because of all of the Christian schools out there's none I feel better about than Biola. Now, every institution, including Christian ones, is filled with sinners, and we live in a fallen world, and there are always gonna be challenges to maintaining faithfulness and our clear-eyed commitment. And I actually think most Christian organizations, churches, and higher education, and across the board, went through somewhat of an identity crisis as there were shifts in our culture, and we were trying to respond to them, where there was increasing opposition to Christian values, and often also, depending on the state you're in, that could be challenging, California as much as any. And so there have been shifts culturally that we've had to adjust to. And so we're always gonna have challenges, always gonna have problems. But I tell parents all the time, I've never felt better about where Biola and Talbot are in our faithfulness to our mission. And it boils down to the leaders we have in place, from the president, and guys like you, Scott, and our deans, and our chairs, and our faculty, and our staff now, and our provost, who are keeping their eye on the ball and want to do what's right, even if it costs us in practical ways. And, and you can be so pragmatically driven, concerned about the bottom line, that you sell your soul. We've seen it happen lots of times. Again, that's not necessarily a logical fallacy to say there's a slippery slope. But I love and trust the people who are in leadership, who are gatekeepers, and I love that my kid's there. Now, we need discernment no matter where we are. I do have a real problem with quasi-Christian schools that are Christian in name, but it's a, it's a crapshoot what you're actually gonna get among the faculty, and in classes, and the student development. I have a problem with that. I say I'd rather my kid go to Berkeley or Cal State Fullerton than a really super fuzzy Christian school, 'cause you don't need the kind of discernment to navigate Cal State Fullerton [chuckles] as you do here. So, so I love where Biola is. I'm, I'm so thankful for where it is. There always is a need for discernment and for critical thinking, no matter where you are, but Biola is a wonderful place, with people I love working with.
Scott Rae: I'll just, I'll just add one thing. I appreciate that. It is true that at Biola we have theological conformity, and we've doubled down on that, I think, in recent years. And, now all our co-curricular staff, anybody who has meaningful contact with students, signs on to all of our theological convictions, not just the faculty and the board. But it is true that we have some political diversity on the campus among the faculty. They're... You know, we're sort of all over the map politically, and if you're equating Christian faithfulness with a particular political f- platform, then you might conclude that a, that a particular school has drifted from their mission. But I would caution against equating biblical fidelity with any partisan political platform, for the simple reason that none of them were written with biblical faithfulness as their goal. They are all, gonna be a mixed bag, politically speaking. So I j- I just wanna caution any listener who says that, you know, to be distinctly Christian, you have to be a certain way politically as a result of that.
Erik Thoennes: Or that you read things and discuss things that are antithetical to a Christian worldview, which is a vital part of any good education, especially if they're seminal thinkers like Marx or Freud [chuckles] or, you know, postmodern thinkers. We... Need to understand the way people think and then critique them biblically, but nevertheless, understand them first charitably, but then think critically about it from a biblical perspective.
Scott Rae: Yeah. I hope that's helpful for this particular listener, and if there are others who have those questions about Biola. Here's a second one, Erik. Very... This is more, I think, a comment than a question, but it's a really good comment. This person says, "I'd like to challenge the notion mentioned last week when you were discussing AI chatbots." This is mostly in a relational context. "You indicated they would be appropriate for medical or therapy appointments." and we did say in a very limited role, but this person points out, "As a physician, I would argue that healthcare AI chatbots perpetuate a sad trend already seen in medicine, transactional rather than relational care. Medicine is becoming corporatized and treated like a consumer product. It may seem that a chatbot could be a great solution to work force shortage or access problem, but a chatbot cannot possibly deal with the relational and emotional needs of people when facing complex health situations the way an actual human can. I just wanted to shed some light on what will inevitably need to be future conversations." Just one comment-... On this. I think this listener gets the bigger picture here, and I think it's a profound point that's being made. It's, it's been pointed out, you know, in lots of settings that physicians, you know, have gone from seeing, being required to see five patients per hour to now seven or eight patients for, per hour. This is part of what our friend Brent Waters calls a wrong turn that medicine is taking. And I think this point, I think is really well taken. And if you've ever felt like you were on an assembly line when you're in a doctor's office, you can probably say amen to that. Here's a third one, Erik. I'm really curious, for your take on this. It says, "My 17-year-old daughter, who's been part of a church for over 10 years, has recently felt a pull toward Catholicism and attending Mass. Should I be concerned about this? She's always attended youth groups, Sunday services, camps, studying at a private Christian school. I've done Bible studies with her, spent time in prayer, read books together. She knows the Word, and like most, has struggled in her relationship to Jesus. This caught me off guard. She explained that going to Mass brought her to tears. I don't want to be in the way of how Jesus is going to reach her, and I have faith in God's sovereignty. Nevertheless, I would like to hear about what you think."
Erik Thoennes: Well, I would love to have lunch with this dear 17-year-old daughter and just ask her what was behind the tears and what was going on there. And I have a feeling it would be similar to other people I've talked to in this situation, where there's something about the reverence of that worship context and the seriousness with which people go about it, and the sense of connection to history, and a big view of God that you can often get. And sadly, I think in a lot of evangelical experience, there c- there can be a [lips smack] s- a desire to be culturally relevant and savvy, to the point where we don't look like much more than a cheesy version of some entertainment presentation. [chuckles] And so you-
Scott Rae: Don't sugarcoat it there.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, okay. Sorry about that.
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: But we... So, so you don't need to go to Rome for reverence. You don't need to go, to a Catholic theology to have a majestic view of God, a big view of God. There are traditions, there are churches that do a really good job with that within a Protestant evangelical context. Now, should she be concerned about it? As a Protestant evangelical, I'm concerned about it, not because we have disagreement on the Trinity, on the character of God, on major doctrinal issues, but because of really two issues for me: the ultimate authority of Scripture and justification by faith alone, I think, are the issues that I'd be most concerned about, which e- lead to other ones we're concerned about in those different traditions. And so I would applaud a desire for reverence and a historical connection and a big view of God, and encourage that, but at the same time say, you can stay within a Protestant evangelical theological avenue, and not sacrifice those other things as well.
Scott Rae: Yeah, that's a, that's a great take on this. I mean, my first read on this was a 17-year-old who's taking her faith more seriously. I'm delighted with that.
Erik Thoennes: Yes. Yes. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: And, and I think the liturgical tradition is connecting with more and more Millennials and Gen Z folks for precisely the reason that you're describing.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: And I think as long as she's not being led astray doctrinally... If she starts holding to problematic theology, then that's a, I think a point for ongoing discussion with the parent. But it may be, more conservative, theologically, liturgical church, Anglican, for example, you know, might also be an option to stay within, an evangelical tradition, without having to embrace some, what we think would be problematic theologically.
Erik Thoennes: And, and one of the things I've always been concerned about is we find something we like more than our current church, where we have all these relationships, and then we leave for that. You know, people say, "You know, I'm a very friendly person. Our church isn't friendly enough, so I'm gonna go somewhere more friendly." And I say, "Wait! You're friendly. We need to be more friendly. I have an idea. How about you stay here and help us be more friendly?" And so same thing- [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yeah. What a, what a concept.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Same thing could apply to this. Maybe you go to your leader and say, "Hey, could we read the Apostles' Creed now and then? Could, could we do something that gives us a bigger view of God than being so concerned that w- that we're sort of trendy, that we're not getting something weighty here?"
Scott Rae: That's great stuff. Erik, thanks so much for joining me today. It's been a great conversation, as usual. So appreciate your insight, your wisdom, your passion that you bring to these various stories.
Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott.
Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the Think Biblically Weekly Cultural Update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. [upbeat music] With programs in all sorts of areas, master's and bachelor programs, in-person and online, visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you wanna submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app, and please share it with a friend. And join us on Tuesday for our conversation with Dr. Carl Truman on understanding critical theory. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
