Biola UniversityThis week, Scott is joined by Talbot professor Thaddeus Williams to discuss:
Why Don’t We Feel We're Thriving? — Despite living in the most prosperous era of human history, many Americans feel anxious and discontent.
The End of Rainbow Capitalism? — Major corporations are backing away from Pride Month sponsorships. The discussion unpacks “rainbow capitalism,” shifting public opinion, and the limits of associating brands with social causes.
A Democratic Socialist Wins NYC Mayoral Primary — Scott and Thaddeus examine the growing support for socialism among Gen Z and millennials, and how it may intersect with our biblical mandate to love others.
10 Years After Obergefell — Reflections on the legalization of same-sex marriage and how the rise of transgender ideology, especially with minors, has led to cultural backlash and renewed concern about protecting children.
Listener Questions:
- Work as an Idol? — How to balance ambition and calling without making work your identity.
- Pronouns and Christian Integrity — Can using “they/them” be a faithful alternative in gender conversations?
- Cohabitating Before the Wedding Party — Is it OK for a couple to cohabitate after a courthouse wedding, but before celebrating with their family?
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] Despite living in the most prosperous era in American history, why don't we feel like we are thriving? The end of rainbow capitalism and a Democratic socialist wins the New York City mayoral primary. These are the stories we'll cover today, and we'll also address some of your questions. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and sitting in for Sean is my Talbot colleague in theology, Dr. Thaddeus Williams. Thad, really appreciate you sitting in for Sean, and, really glad to have you with us.
Thaddeus Williams: It's a joy to be with you again. It's always fun.
Scott Rae: So, Thad, here's... Story number one is an editorial from The New York Times. The article begins like this: "We live in the most materially prosperous era in human history. Over the past half-century, child mortality has fallen by two-thirds in the United States. Medical advances have made lives longer and more comfortable. Education rates have soared, and material comforts like air conditioning, plumbing, and internet access abound. Although our country faces many challenges, the progress of the past decades has ushered in conveniences and opportunities that previous generations could scarcely imagine. Yet we are anxious, restless, and often enraged. Why?" The author poses, and he gives us, he gives us, in hi- in his view, the answer to this. It's about how we perceive our lives. Although technology has elevated our standard of living, he argues that it has created a warped lens of comparison, leading to a collective envy that risks tearing our social fabric apart. Now, to be clear, social media didn't invent envy. That's been around for a long time.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But it industrialized it. It turned comparison into a business model with algorithms that are finely tuned to monetize discontent. Now, he also- ... Points out that there are certain realities that are true, that fuel envy, such as the widening wealth gap and certain racial issues, which have the effect of making life feel unfair. However, the article concludes, I think, with this pungent statement, that today we are less grateful for what we have and more bitter about the things that we lack. Thad, I'm interested to hear your take on this. I've got some comments on this, but, w- how do you react to this, the notion that we should be, experiencing a lot more gratitude than we actually are?
Thaddeus Williams: [chuckles] Yeah, that's... A, a powerful example that comes straight to mind for me is how we have invented, as a Western civilization, the day after Thanksgiving is what? Black Friday. [chuckles] What do we do Black Friday? We forget about all the stuff we're grateful for.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Thaddeus Williams: We gotta go out and scramble and tackle each other in the aisles of Walmart and Target to dogpile our way towards the best deal because we need what's next. We need, we need what's newest. And so to me, that irony from Thanksgiving to Black Friday really captures something deep at the dissatisfied heart of Western culture. And I think this is where, as Christians, we have a lot to say to speak into the cultural moment. I mean, think of how gratitude, thankfulness is a running primary virtue through both Testaments. You know, I think of Friedrich Nietzsche, you know, the famous atheist who coined the term, you know, "God is dead." Even for an atheist like Nietzsche, he had this... He muses on gratitude and says that, essentially, to paraphrase, one of the hardest things about being an atheist is you don't have anyone to thank. And, and so, you know, I remember driving home from campus a few months ago down the 5 Freeway and just seeing this incredible rainbow just light up the sky over the Pacific Ocean, and just to be able to spontaneously, to have real gratitude evoked towards the artist, towards Christ, who is sovereignly sustaining those light particles bouncing off the horizon, that brings someone to thank. And so I think as a church, to, recover the virtue of gratitude can be a really attractive thing to a society that constantly feels entitled, and they never have enough. And just final thought here, to bring this all down to earth, something we do, sort of a liturgy in the Williams home, is around the dinner table, we do things like Magnificent Mondays, where I go around with the kids and, "What's something magnificent about God that He's made?" We do Terrific Tuesdays, or sometimes Terrible Tuesdays, depending on [chuckles] how the day's going.
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Thaddeus Williams: But what's something terrific to thank God for? What's something terrible we can pray about? And we go through Wicked Wednesdays, where we own our sin together as a family. Thankful Thursdays. It's just a staple. It's a liturgy in the home that helps my kids... It, it helps structure their souls from an early age towards gratitude. And then we do Freaked Out Fridays, what's something [chuckles] freaking you out that you can take-
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Thaddeus Williams: ... To a sovereign God. But I think just on a practical level, creating countercultural liturgies of gratitude can really help, put a dent in some of the ingratitude and dissatisfaction of our society.
Scott Rae: I think that's a great word. I remember when our kids were growing up, and we had, we had dinner around the dinner table in the evenings. We would do, we would do peaks and pits from the day.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And, the peaks were always something that they could be grateful for or thankful for, and the pits were something that we, you know, we were praying about or trusting God for, uh- ... In the future going forward. And I think my comment on this, Thad, relates to the, I think another virtue that's closely related to gratitude, which is contentment.... And I think we've, that contentment, I think, is a virtue that we have lost today in our social media environment, where there is so much comparison going on and so much discontent that is fueled by our so- our social media. And I remember hearing, a definition of contentment that has always stuck with me. It said, "Contentment is wanting what you have."
Thaddeus Williams: That's good.
Scott Rae: And I think that, I think that's really appropriate. And, and, in biblical times, of course, the opposite of contentment was not ambition, but it w- it was envy and covetousness. Because in the biblical world, there were so few, morally acceptable ways to improve your socioeconomic standing. I mean, for the most part, as you know, as we've talked about with in the, in the ancient view of the economic life, you were essentially stuck- ... In the economic strata into which you were born. And the o- the o- I mean, there were no rags to riches stories in biblical times. There was no really-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Elevating, there was no upward mobility in terms of socioeconomic, uh-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Mobility. But there, I mean, there were lots of, there were riches to rags stories. Those were not that uncommon, but they're just... The economic system was not structured in a way where people could improve their standard of living dramatically. And so the only thing- the opposite of contentment then in that situation would be envy and covetousness, because the only thing you could do [chuckles] is to envy the people who you had to look up at- ... Above you on the socioeconomic ladder. And so contentment- ... I think is a, is a significant biblical virtue, and I think even more so today, even though we have the opportunities to improve ourselves, our socioeconomic state, I think the Bible still calls us to be content with where we are-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... While at the same time, while at the same time, I think your self-interest, [clears throat] it's, it's not immoral to, pursue your self-interest to such a degree to improve your socioeconomic standing as part of taking care of those who you are biblically and theologically responsible for.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: So-
Thaddeus Williams: That's good
Scott Rae: ... There's, there's a part of that that I think is, you know, we... Ambition is no longer a mortal sin today-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Because in the, in the ancient world, there were so few acceptable ways to have your ambition work itself out.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But, um-
Thaddeus Williams: That, that's interesting. Yeah. Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off.
Scott Rae: But I mean, today, you can have contentment and ambition at the same time- ... Which is a balancing act that people in the ancient world didn't really have to do. So I think it's a little bit trickier today, but I think the, you know, the more we can sort of wean ourselves off of those social media comparisons- ... And then everybody's putting their best, their best life forward. No, no, very few people share their struggles and their, you know, their issues on social media. They share the good stuff.
Thaddeus Williams: Like, think of the '80s, you had to go and pay a photographer to add some feathery effects to give you a glamour shot. Now, [chuckles] with our technology, you can look as terrible as you might rolling out of bed and hit three buttons, and you look like a supermodel, and you get the highly edited, highly filtered version of one another's lives, and that's, that's sure to breed all kinds of, envy and the losing game of comparison. When you were talking about the economic component, Scott, it reminded me of, being on a Biola missions trip over 20 years ago when I was a student. And we were in Nepal, which is developing world, terrible poverty, and we were staying at, this little hostel on the riverbanks of, what's called the Tamel or the Trai River. And I remember waking up one morning and walking into town and seeing these little kids who were five, six years old, running along the river, who were literally wearing rags or couldn't even afford rags and were running around au naturel, and just seeing the sheer joy on their faces. I was like, "Wow, I wonder how much I have falsely correlated, having certain luxuries with the soul state of contentment, or gratitude." And, and that, got me thinking. There's this video that I probably think about once or twice a week that popped up in my feed of this man, I think he's in, I wanna say, Jamaica, and he's eating a mango. [chuckles] And he says... He takes a bite of this juicy mango, and he says, "I don't deserve this!" And, and you just see him, the juice is dripping down his chin. He's like, "The taste of this, it's so- I don't deserve this." He had this, you know, as theologians, we would look at that and say, to push back on the discontentment, the lack of gratitude in the culture, we need to recover a robust doctrine of common grace. So there's obviously saving grace, thanks to, the grace of God through Christ alone. By grace alone, through faith alone, sinners like us can be saved. But in addition to that incredible gift is common grace, which is that man's point, "I don't deserve the flavor of mango." And I try to teach my kids this all the time, like, I don't deserve that In-N-Out burger. I'm, I'm not entitled to any of the good things in life. I'm not entitled to the air conditioning I'm enjoying right now. I'm not entitled to, There, there's a clip in Sherlock Holmes from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, where Holmes, who rarely pontificates theologically, makes the observation, he says-... The flower, the scent of a rose is, he uses the term, an extra. It's an extra. It's not necessary to the functionality of a rose, and he concludes with a profound theological point: only goodness can give extras. And so looking to God as the capital G, Good, who grants us all these extras in life, I think can go a long way to creating these countercultural habits of contentment and gratitude.
Scott Rae: Yeah, that's a great point, that, entitlement is certainly the number one enemy of contentment.
Thaddeus Williams: Yep.
Scott Rae: And I think that's-- you've, you've hit on something I think really important. All right, let's go to story number two. Also-
Thaddeus Williams: Sure
Scott Rae: ... A bit about economics and business, is entitled, "The End of, quote, Rainbow Capitalism." This is again from The New York Times, from an author who, interestingly enough, was the former editor-in-chief of Out Magazine, an openly LGBTQ-supporting publication. He points out that for many years, the month of June, being Pride Month, was characterized by major corporations deploying their marketing efforts to support the gay community, which became known as rainbow capitalism. But he also points out that this year's Pride Month was, by comparison, a bust. Companies were backing away from their support for LGBTQ causes for fear of making unpopular political statements that were more readily seen as divisive. Companies were seeing their support to the gay community as a liability in this current cultural moment. For example, this skittishness is echoed by giants such as Garnier, Skyy Vodka, Mastercard, Anheuser-Busch, Pepsi, Comcast, Citi, and PricewaterhouseCoopers. All of them have slashed their Pride commitments dramatically this year. I'd say the genesis of this retreat occurred not this year, but two years earlier, with Bud Light using a trans person as a spokesperson in some of their commercials, creating a really quick and highly significant backlash, and causing the company, Anheuser-Busch, to pull out of sponsorships this year of Pride parades in both San Francisco and St. Louis. Pride events have faced sponsorship drops all over the country, and some even in Canada, as many other companies have followed their lead. Rainbow capitalism, I think, has marked a transition of gays from sos- from societal deviance and sexual outlaws to, as the, as the author puts it, "supermarket aisle respectability." But Thad, for the moment, it seemed like those days seem to be over- ... At least for right now.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah. [chuckles] It takes me right back to taking your theology of economics class, again, dating myself here, but some 20-plus years ago.
Scott Rae: Let's, let's not go there. [laughing]
Thaddeus Williams: Back in the class in 1964. Just kidding.
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Thaddeus Williams: But taking a theology of economics class, and I remember, you unpacking the concept of associative advertising, where, you know, the product might be, Axe body spray, which is sort of a cheap deodorant, cheap cologne for usually teenage boys. In the ad will be, you know, zoomed in on this scrawny kid running down a beach, spraying Axe, and then the camera zooms back to reveal an army of bikini-clad supermodels chasing him. You know, the ad has very little to do with the actual product. You're trying to associate something that you can't actually put a price tag to, through the ad. And, and I think that we've seen so much associative advertising around sort of the culture war skirmishes. So I think of, how after... I mean, let's look at the calendar. We're coming up on 10 years since the Obergefell ruling in the Supreme Court. For those who aren't familiar, the famous Obergefell case followed on the heels of the Windsor case. The Windsor case overthrew California's Prop 8 to legalize gay marriage, to overturn, a proposition against it, and then Obergefell followed closely thereafter, which legalized same sex marriage in all 50 states. And since then, it became cool. It became trendy to wave the rainbow flag and to emblazon your product, whether it was an Oreo cookie. They did rainbow Oreos.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm. I remember that.
Thaddeus Williams: There was rainbow Doritos. There's, I mean, you couldn't even watch a Major League Baseball game or an NFL football game without seeing something, that was, waving that rainbow flag high. And so it's interesting what this author of this article is pointing out is what I think a lot of us are aware of, that things are changing in a significant way. In the article, the author details just the huge downfall in funding that came for these massive Pride events, to the tunes of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars that they've relied on in the past, that the funding dried up. And that makes me think of, you know, where we're at now, in many ways, was planned, we might say premeditated, by, two gentlemen I'm sure you're familiar with, Scott. Marshall Kirk, who's a neuropsychiatrist, and a public relations consultant named, Hunter Madsen. Kirk and Madsen, in their 1987 work, After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the '90s, that's where they unleashed and spell out a six-step strategy that has very much captured the culture on this. But now what we're seeing is-... That whole, sequence being set in reverse. So they said, you know, "Step one: talk about gays and gayness as often as possible. Step two: portray gays as victims, not aggressive challengers. Step three: talk about anti-discrimination as the theme, not actual homosexual practices. Step four: make gays look good, paint them as superior pillars of society. Step five: make victimizers look bad. And step six is simple: solicit funds. The buck stops here." And so they laid it out for us in After the Ball in the late '80s, and now again, the whole thing seems to be turning back on itself, where you get, instead of solicit funds as the sixth step, the funding, seems to be drying up as culture is beginning to, push back against, gender ideology. I think the fusing of gay rights with transgender rights had an awful lot to do with the loss of popular support. So, but I wanna kick it to you. I'm interested in your take, Scott. Why do you think, public opinion has shifted to the point that major corporations are now backing off waving the rainbow flag?
Scott Rae: Well, Thad, I think, you know, markets are mirrors-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... That reflect society's values. And in my view, it's a mistake to see rainbow capitalism as anything but being about business.
Thaddeus Williams: Yep.
Scott Rae: I don't think that the, many of the companies were interested in the culture war part of this. It was profitable to be associated with gay causes when they were ascending, and just not so much today.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And I think the author of this piece, I c- I commend him for it, for fessing up to the fact that some of the cancel culture excesses have played a role in the backlash- ... Against the LGBTQ movement. He cites, for example, the canceling of Bountiful Farms, who, the, you know, their founder's a very committed Christian who we've had on the Biola campus before, and the canceling of Bes- Barilla Pasta for their statements about pro-family, or even the cancellation, the really serious cancellation of former CEO of Mozilla, Brendan Eich-
Thaddeus Williams: Oh, yeah
Scott Rae: ... Who made a, you know, $1,000 contribution-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, for Prop 8
Scott Rae: ... To California's Proposition 8.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: He, he essentially lost his career-
Thaddeus Williams: Yep
Scott Rae: ... As a result of that. And so I think, it, I think it's, it's, it's right to say that the act- the movement went to a bit of an excess with the trans issues. And that ha- they've lost popular support as a result of that. I don't think the support for gay marriage has diminished, but taking it that next step toward, I think, embracing of trans ideology, especially for kids-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... I mean, as And- as Andrew Sullivan points out in his piece on this, the mantra of the gay community has been all along in their, in their campaign to become societally respectable, is, "Leave the kids out."
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: You know, don't bring the kids into it. But I think the article here, I think, about rainbow capitalism, I think makes the right point. He, he... And I quote the author here, it says, "But here's the thing about marketing campaigns: They seek to move product, not the culture." "And when they don't, they move on to what does."
Thaddeus Williams: Exactly.
Scott Rae: And that's, that's really insightful. And what this does, Thad, I think it just raises a few bigger questions about the social responsibility of business- ... In general. And, so frequently, people in, people in the, in the broader culture see business and their social responsibility as something that's adjunct to the normal function of business, that creates goods and services that add value to the community. And I think Milton Friedman, his argument is that the business doesn't have any social responsibility except to its shareholders.
Thaddeus Williams: Right.
Scott Rae: And I think that that's, for reasons we probably don't have time to go into now, but that's only partially right, 'cause I think business does have a responsibility to avoid, bringing harms to its community, because all of us have prior moral obligations before we enter the workplace, and we don't shed those upon walking into an office door.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But I think the main premise behind the social responsibility of business is that, is that in the normal conduct of their business, businesses value extracting, not value adding. And so you have to balance the scales, business has to give back. And I think the premise behind the give back movement, I think, is fundamentally false.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And so I think it ra- it raises those bigger questions about w-what business' social responsibility actually is. And I think we minimize what business does for society and for the flourishing of individuals and families and communities simply by the conduct of their day-to-day business in the goods and services that they provide.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And for the most part... Now, there are some exceptions to this. Pornography would be an exception to this, as would, as a handful of other, the drug trade, a handful of other industries, but for the most part, business adds value. They have to do that in order to make a profit and to stay-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... In business.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, that's the way free markets work. What's fascinating is, some recent research, looking at Millennials and Gen Z on exactly the question you raised, Scott, is: Do businesses have any kind of moral obligation other than, you know, raise the bottom line and make profit? It reminds me of a parallel in legal theory, in jurisprudence. You had in the early 20th century, the rise of something called legal positivism, with Oliver Wendell Holmes and folks like that saying, "Keep morality out of law. These, these are completely distinct spheres. The law is the law is the law. All that counts for it to be a law is that it's, um-... Mandated by a proper authority. And I think that lost something significant, that was later recovered. It's difficult to have a Christian understanding, like you hear from, say, a John Warwick Montgove- Montgomery, or even Martin Luther King Jr., or Vaclav Havel in the Czech Republic, or even William Wilberforce. These folks who said, "No, law does have- there is a law above the law, and we need to bring, our laws into sync with something, transcendent and biblical." I think, something like that. I'm not sure I agree with Friedman, who's articulating something like legal positivism, but just sort of business or free market positivism, that morality needs to be sealed off. So, so it's an interesting question, but what I briefly wanted to draw attention to was how younger generations think about that. 77% of millennials, and Gen Z, 77%, and so a walloping majority, feel businesses should make doing good a central part of their business. And 76% are concerned about the human impact on the planet and believe they can operate as change agents. So, the- it's a sort of rainbow capitalism, and I don't think that concept of fusing together a product with some, you know, grandiose, utopian, or social cause is going anywhere anytime soon.
Scott Rae: Yeah, and it... And I think to be fair to Milton Friedman, he was not a libertarian. He-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... He presumed that, you know, markets and business conducted themselves within a moral and legal framework, and you, and you were not justified to step outside of that.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But in terms of additional social responsibility that business had, besides making a profit and providing valuable goods and services to enrich communities, he would say not so much.
Thaddeus Williams: Gotcha.
Scott Rae: Now, here, story number three relates to this, and this, I'm really interested to get your take on this in particular, because earlier this week, a z- let me pronounce his name correctly, Zohran
Thaddeus Williams: Mamdani, yeah
Scott Rae: I think I got that. I think I got that right. "A 30-year-old state assembly member in New York and self-described Democratic socialist, was poised on Tuesday to win New York City's Democratic mayoral primary, as his main opponent, former Governor Andrew Cuomo, conceded the race." Now, this won't be final until next week because of the electoral process that they have in the city, but, Mamdani has a commanding lead that the rest of the field will not likely overcome. And he will likely be the favorite in the general election in the fall, given New York City's heavily Democratic constituency. Now, he ref- he refers to himself as a Democratic socialist and has garnered the support of the likes of Bernie Sanders and AOC, Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. And Democratic socialists are widely seen as some of the most extreme progressives in the Democratic Party. Now, he would be the city's first Muslim mayor. He has a long history of pro-Palestinian activism, among other things that he brings to the table. Now, part of the reason we bring this story up is to comment on the wider phenomenon, Thad, that you just mentioned, among Gen Z and younger millennials, which I would call a growing fondness for socialism.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: I'm curious to know, what explains this fascination with socialism among younger generations? Because, you know, you and I lived through the end of the Cold War, and I... I mean, I had friends who grew up behind the Iron Curtain.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Grew up, grew up under socialism, and they want, they want nothing to do with it ever again.
Thaddeus Williams: Yep.
Scott Rae: And Cuban exiles who live in Miami now, who grew up in Castro's Cuba, under a communist regime, they want nothing to do with socialism and end up being some of the most economically conservative folks that we have in the country. So-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... I mean, it's- I take it there's, there's more than just, a, an, a lack of appreciation of history. There's more than that historical amnesia, I think, that's at play here. But what... How, how do you explain this fascination with socialism among younger generations?
Thaddeus Williams: I think part of it, I like that term, historical amnesia, or just not being given an accurate picture. I know growing up in the public school system, out here in California, you know, we did a deep dive into the evils of Nazism and the evils of, the slave trade in the American South and things like that. I'm struggling to think of a single class session or a single chapter of a book on what socialism, what carnage it has unleashed on the human race in the last 100 years. I don't, I don't think I- we got any of that. And so this came to a head for me in a pretty embarrassing way, years and years ago. I was wearing, a shirt that was cool. The cool factor has something to do with the draw towards socialism. It was this green shirt [lips smack] and it had, a picture of... Oh, help me out. He's, Che Guevara. Che Guevara, the, South American, communist revolutionary who ended up killing thousands of people, including some of his own, his own soldiers. Not a good guy, but I thought the shirt was cool. It said, "Viva la Revolución!" on it, and a big face of- a big, what's the word? A stenciled spray paint face of Che Guevara. So I wear this, thinking it's cool, into a gas station, and the gas station attendant called me out on it. He's like: "You know who's on your shirt?"
Scott Rae: Oh!
Thaddeus Williams: I'm like: "I don't know. Is it Che Guevara?" [chuckles]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Thaddeus Williams: He's like: "No, that's Che Guevara. He actually, had a hand in, um-... Oppressing and killing some of my ancestors." and he took me through the history, and I was like, "Yikes! I had no idea." and I think you see-- so part of the problem is that among the generations that gravitate towards, socialist ideas, this is a study from a couple of years ago: one quarter of them, so 25% of millennials and Gen Z, think that George W. Bush killed more people than Joseph Stalin. Forty-two percent of millennials and, Gen Z are unfamiliar with the communist leader, Mao Zedong. So almost half have just never heard of Mao, whose cultural revolution and all the same lingo of, "Let, let's erase the line between the haves and the have-nots, and let's, bring greater equality and compassion to society." Under those waving banners of empathy, compassion, and equality, economic equality, Mao claimed 40 million image-bearers of God, 40 million human casualties under the waving banner of socialism/communism. And almost half of millennials just, "Mao who?" They just don't know. Forty-nine percent couldn't name a single one of over 40,000 concentration camps and ghettos operating during the Holocaust. Two-thirds were unable to identify what Auschwitz was. Twenty-two percent of millennials said they hadn't even heard of the Holocaust or aren't sure they've heard of it. So, so part of the problem here is just old-fashioned ignorance. The National Study of Youth and Religion found 60% of millennials believe they'll just be able to, quote, "feel what's right." So, [chuckles] so when it comes to these complex economic situations and how to actually lift the poor out of poverty, we'll just be able to sort of feel our way out. And something that I find working with, many Gen Z students is just being able to open their eyes up to, you know, here's all the anti-capitalist, anti-free market, propaganda out there. You, you mentioned earlier that we, you know, came of age there in the '80s when the Cold War was in full effect, and so you get... You know, I still have Russian and Ukai- Ukrainian friends who just say it completely and utterly baffles them that socialism is being championed by a growing number of young Americans. But there's this sense that if I'm on team socialism... You know, in the '80s,
Thaddeus Williams: We thought global poverty was just, you could maybe put a dent in it, and so you had Live Aid, this big concert, with all the rock stars showing up. And Steven Pinker points out that free markets in the last 25 years have so drastically made a dent in abject poverty around the world. And most economists point to free markets making their way into China. You have the Asian tigers like Japan and Singapore and Taiwan. Very little natural resources, but with free markets, they're thriving. Places like India opening up to free markets, where the very thing that has caused some amazingly good news that nobody saw coming. The... I think I did the math in one of my books, that every, I think, five minutes, let me get this stat right. Every five minutes, I want to say... Yeah, 475 people in the last five [chuckles] minutes you and I have been talking, Scott, have broken away from extreme poverty. And again, one of the major factors in that is the opposite of socialism. And, and so I'll make this sort of my closing thought on it, is particularly to a Christian and particularly a young Christian audience, they hear socialism. Maybe it's not even called that, it's just, "We're gonna create greater economic equality. We're gonna uplift the poor," and things begin to click. The, the synapses begin to fire, and they think, "Okay, Scripture tells me to care for the poor. Bernie Sanders is telling me he cares for the poor. Zohran Mamdani is telling me he cares for the poor, and so I want to be anti-greed, and I want to be pro the poor because the Bible tells me to. Therefore, I'm gonna cast my vote, I'm gonna pull the lever for the socialist candidate. That's doing my Christian duty." And little do they realize, in doing that you need to look beyond the bumper sticker slogan to what really happens under socialist policies. So, so final thought: in 1973, in Chile, there was a presidential election, and Salvador Allende was running as a socialist, as a Christian. "I'm gonna help the poor. I'm gonna rise people out of abject poverty." He won with a large share of Christian support. A lot of the priests and a lot of the churches, even American evangelicals, threw a lot of their support down south his way. He wins, becomes president. True to his word, he collectivizes agriculture in the first year, begins instituting socialist policy. Inflation skyrockets 600% in the first 12 months, and instead of actually helping the poor, he just adds to their number. And so I pray for [chuckles] New Yorkers that Mamdani, [lips smack] that his policies don't have the same terrible effects. But as Christians, we need to think biblically about this kind of stuff.
Scott Rae: Yeah, those are real- I think, really helpful comments on this. I-... And I think part of the education, I think, is well taken. And I think part of it, too, is that, you know, millennials and Gen Z did not live through, quote, "the glory years of socialism" in the 20th century.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: When the es- the es- the last estimate I've heard is that the socialist regimes in the various parts of the world, from the Soviet Union to Cuba to China to Cambodia, to Chile, others, they resulted in roughly 100 million innocent lives being taken.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah. Yep.
Scott Rae: And what that, what that... I think it gives us a re- an important insight, is that utopian visions almost always end up with totalitarian means to accomplish them.
Thaddeus Williams: Exactly.
Scott Rae: And this is, this is why g- why government has to take the fall into account, and that this side of eternity, we will never have utopia.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And part of, part of what government and economics provides is a way to share the obligations of our life together. But we do it in democratic systems with consent and with voting and with, consumers' preferences.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And I lo- I love... You know, Margaret Thatcher, the former UK Prime Minister, had a wonderful insight about socialism. She said, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: And the reason for that is because economies in socialist systems don't generate wealth-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... They redistribute it, and eventually you do run out of other people's money to redistribute. The other part about socialism, I think, that troubles me is that it ignores what I would call Economics 101, and one of the basic premises of economics is that incentives matter- ... And the pursuit of self-interest is not inherently immoral. Paul's very clear in Philippians 2:4 to look out not only for your own interest, but also for the interests of others. And greed and self-interest are not, are not the same thing.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: In fact, the Bible's very clear about how the person who doesn't pursue their self-interest sufficient to take care of themselves and their dependents, how that person is regarded- ... By God. The Bible has really strong words for people who shirk those responsibilities. And the system, I think, it was really, it's really clear that it is not based on greed, but it is actually based on virtue, and virtue governing the pursuit of self-interest, presuming that there are moral restraints on that pursuit. And, and you are absolutely right. In fact, since 1970, the last figure I've heard is 1.7 billion people have been lifted out-
Thaddeus Williams: Wow
Scott Rae: ... Of $2 a day poverty by the global economy.
Thaddeus Williams: Wow.
Scott Rae: And in my view, it's immoral not to employ a system that we know works to get people out of poverty.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And especially to employ one that we know doesn't work- ... But only exacerbates poverty, I think is equally immoral.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, I think economists, real quick, Deirdre McCloskey has done a lot of, great work on this, and what McCloskey argues is against sort of this Marxist, slash socialist stereotype, that what makes free markets run is fundamentally greed. And as you're saying, there's an important distinction between greed and self-interest. But McCloskey actually documents that the overwhelming majority of transactions in a free market are done on behalf of other people.
Scott Rae: Yes.
Thaddeus Williams: You know-
Scott Rae: And, and are, and are premised on trust.
Thaddeus Williams: Yes. Yeah, and, McCloskey gives this thought experiment that I find helpful, that if I'm in a, socialist context, say Venezuela, and I'm greedy and I want more, the only way for me to get more is by taking it from someone else. So I have to have this set-sized pie, and play this zero-sum game. So if I want a bigger slice, my neighbor's gotta have a smaller slice. But if I'm... So my capacity to express greed can only be manifest through some form of coercion or exploitation.
Scott Rae: Correct.
Thaddeus Williams: That's just not the case in free markets. If I'm greedy here, let's say I'm, I'm greedy to my core, I have to, in a free market, figure out a way to serve my neighbor, in a sense. I need to come up with a good or service that will actually [chuckles] benefit them in some way-
Scott Rae: That's correct
Thaddeus Williams: ... Otherwise, I'm not gonna-
Scott Rae: That's right
Thaddeus Williams: ... Get ahead. And so there's just a lot of this, like you said, Economics 101 stuff, that, you know, as Christians, we need to do better, at passing a lot of that stuff on to future generations. Eventually, most folks grow out of their socialist phase, but the sooner, the better. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yeah. Well, and what we found among our own kids is that they grew out of that when they got some of their first paychecks and saw how much-
Thaddeus Williams: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... Government was actually taking out of it. They said, "Dad, what the heck is going on here?"
Thaddeus Williams: Yep. There you go.
Scott Rae: So, all right, and then last thing before we answer some audience questions, and I think just for a brief mention, this week marks the 10th anniversary of the Obergefell decision that legalized same-sex marriage. And gay conservative Andrew Sullivan writes that the decision that made gay marriage mainstream, but the LGBTQ movement badly overreached, allowing the trans issue, especially with minors, to take over the movement, creating a backlash against the movement overall. And not coincidentally, last week, the US Supreme Court ruled that the state of Tennessee could prohibit gender-affirming treatments for minors. And our friend at the Ruth Institute, Jennifer Morse, argues, I think, very persuasively, that the trans emphasis is actually a logical outworking of the movement and reflects a view of the body that autonomy outweighs biology that is in stark contrast to a biblical view of the body. That... Give a, give us a 30-second comment on this 10th ann- 10th anniversary.
Thaddeus Williams: Part of our, I-... Earlier conversation about rainbow capitalism applies here. That, that something, I see happening is as people become aware of what is under- what's behind the rainbow, and who are some of the ideologues, who are some of the architects of, say, gender ideology? I think once people start to see the true colors, it-- w- for one thing, it has poked the mama bear in many homes. And, and here's what I mean. I did a piece recently, for World Magazine on who was Harvey Milk, 'cause Harvey Milk Day was celebrated in San Francisco, and Gavin Newsom mandated this as a holiday for Californians. And Harvey Milk, it's, it's not... It's public knowledge, was, a pedophile, as was Alfred Kinsey, who wrote the Kinsey Report that was essentially the Bible of the sexual revolution, as was, John Money, the father of gender reassignment surgery and, the whole concept of gender identity being fluid. And so you have, as more and more people educate themselves on where these ideas came from, you have particularly parents who are saying, "St- I don't want these creeps' ideology within 100 miles of my children." and so I think that's part of it, too. Part of the backlash, since Obergefell has been, okay, same-sex marriage, that's one question, but so quickly, hitched to that trailer was, all this trans stuff and the ideology that came with it. And as people see the effects it has on kids and things like that, I think, that goes a long way to explaining some of the backlash we see.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Hear, hear. Good, good word on that. Thanks. All right, you ready to take some questions?
Thaddeus Williams: Let's do it.
Scott Rae: Got some, got some good questions here. Here's the first one. It's referring back to our interview with David Bronson that was, that was posted a couple weeks ago. He's, he, The que- the listener says that, "Bonson said that preachers mostly talk about work with cautionary language as something Christians need to be careful of overvaluing. He was critical of that posture because he thinks the real problem is that people don't value work enough. But as a working professional, I often feel the tension between work becoming a heart idol and serving Jesus wholeheartedly. Do you think that work can be a heart idol for some? What recommendations can you share for those who do feel the temptation to overvalue their work?"
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, the fact that work can be turned into an idol is clear from the fact that work is a good thing, and an idol is when we take any good thing and make it the ultimate thing, in which case it becomes a destructive thing. I'm borrowing some of Tim Keller's great work on idolatry here. Work is good. Work, You've done a lot of work on work over the years and shown that, it's not the results of the fall, that in the new heavens and the new Earth, work will actually be a component of that. Um-
Scott Rae: Yeah. Sorry to break that to our listeners. [chuckles]
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah. [chuckles] Well, it's different if you have a job that you love, like I do, getting to teach at Biola-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Thaddeus Williams: ... Then, man, I'd do that forever. But there's something sacred about work, and like, I mean, replace work in the question with sex. Can sex become an idol? Can it be destructive? Of course. God thought up sex. It's a good thing. When we turn that good thing into an ultimate thing, it becomes a destructive thing. And so, you know, I think John Calvin had it right here, that we have these idol factory hearts, that God blesses us with something, and very quickly, we now put our core identity in that thing and look to it more than to Christ to make our lives meaningful. And so I would just say, a good sort of, litmus test or barometer that we could apply to ourselves is if you didn't have that thing, let's say you lost your job, would you, A, be bummed out, hurt, sad, and grief? Or, B, would you be existentially devastated because your whole identity was wrapped up in that thing? You know, and I think that's a health- helpful litmus test because Tim Keller used to talk about how he loves his wife, Kathy. She's a good thing. He loves her profoundly, and if he had lost her, then he would be deep... In a deep state of grief, but he would still be fundamentally Tim Keller, and his core identity in Christ wouldn't magically be undermined or disappear. And so I think for the listeners out there, not just work, let's broaden it out, any good thing you enjoy in your life, is that more central to who you are? Does your identity and your sense of joy and contentment and gratitude rest more on that thing than in Christ? And if you put first things first, confess that idol, then what I've found ha- with my own idolatrous heart, is God will often later give back that thing as the good thing it was meant to be, rather than, the false idol we turned it into.
Scott Rae: Yeah, that's a, that's a great word on that, Thad. I'll just add a couple comments on this. It's true that we are hardwired for work. It's part of our spiritual DNA, but we are also hardwired for Sabbath- ... And for rest.
Thaddeus Williams: That's good.
Scott Rae: And I think the part of the purpose of the Sabbath is to remind us that there's more to life than our work-
Thaddeus Williams: That's good. Yeah
Scott Rae: ... And ultimately. So, and my advice to this person would be, make sure, make sure you have a regular weekly time where you take an entire day off from work.
Thaddeus Williams: I love it.
Scott Rae: And you don't, you don't check work email. You, you go dark. Um-... And you celebrate a Sabbath as a time of rest and refreshment.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, it's almost like you're having us think biblically about this, Scott.
Scott Rae: What a cons- what a concept, huh? [chuckles]
Thaddeus Williams: Imagine that. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: All right, here's a second one. "State of Oregon strongly affirms LGBTQ lifestyles, and I want to avoid any unnecessary backlash from s- from using someone's real pronouns, their birth pronouns. I want to be a light to those in our community, while also being submissive to governing authorities. To that end, could it be permissible for Christians to use, quote, 'they' pronouns as an alternative to someone's preferred pronouns? If a, quote, trans man wanted to be called he or him, would they or them be an appropriate alternative? Since saying they is already widely used in the culture to protect someone's anonymity, would this be an acceptable option for a Christian in the trans discussion? If not, what would be an appropriate alternative, especially if using someone's first name is not an option?"
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, it's an interesting question, 'cause I'm not sure what cases using a name would be out of bounds. So, so earlier in our conversation about socialism and free markets, I referenced Deirdre McCloskey. McCloskey is trans. I-- at no point in those comments did I have to use any pronouns. I just said McCloskey. So, so I j- I just... A lot of this feels like much ado about nothing. If I have a student in my class, and I start referring to, let's say the student's name is Bob, and I say, "He just made a good point," or, "He was late to class," if I start using pronouns in his presence, that's kinda disrespectful.
Scott Rae: It's a little bit, it's a little bit insulting.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, it's, it's- ... Impersonal. And so I just scratch my head and think, "W- where is there a case that I would need to use they or he or any pronoun for that matter?" So that's just on a very, surface level-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Thaddeus Williams: ... Where does this actually become a problem? But, but a deeper point here is that,
Thaddeus Williams: In many ways, culture is downstream from law, and so since Obergefell and with the rise, the, of LGBTQ and, [lips smack] gender ideology making its way through... You know, we talked about the business world, the markets, the education systems, and all this. A lot of this is, many Christians prefer the path of least resistance, which is, "I'm just- I'm gonna go with the flow. What's the big deal if I just use this, or that pronoun?" And I know on the show here, we've had many lively conversations. Listeners can go check out, Sean McDowell's great conversation with Tim Muehlhoff on this question. But I'm of the persuasion that we need to resist, any ideology, any law that would have us, That's a form of bullying. And a helpful way that I wrap my head around this is, I believe, Scott, my core identity, and as one of my professors back in the day, you helped solidify this core identity, as in Christ is who I am. I am an adopted child of God. I am redeemed by the blood of Jesus. I'm inhabited by the Holy Spirit. Now, if I meet a Muslim friend or I meet an atheist friend, and I say, "Okay, this is my truth that I believe is more than my truth, I actually think it's objectively true, but I'm going to ask you to refer to me from here on out as Thaddeus Williams, adopted child of the one true God," they would be right to say, "All due respect, I don't share your worldview presuppositions, and so you can't really bully or force me to start-- to have your words that only make sense on your paradigm come out of my mouth on threat of being labeled a bigot or canceled." And, and so I think as Christians, being able to have just that baseline courage to say, "Hey, I've got nothing but love for you. I respect you, but I'm not gonna, play along with saying things, particularly because I know where the ideologies came from behind pronouns, and I find those ideologues reprehensible in their ideas. I'm just not gonna play along. But I'll tell you what, I'll give you a whole lot of love and respect along the way."
Scott Rae: Good word on that. I don't have much to add to that.
Thaddeus Williams: Okay.
Scott Rae: So that's-
Thaddeus Williams: Fair enough
Scott Rae: ... That's pretty good stuff. I try to, I try to use their first name if it's, if that's an option. And the la... I think using their last name sometimes is also appropriate.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But, I mean, I... Good stuff on that. Let's go to the third one here.
Thaddeus Williams: Sure.
Scott Rae: This is from a listener who says: "Thank you for your extended episode on cohabitation. I have a question on how to best address this issue with Christians close to me who get engaged and then immediately do a courthouse wedding to live together, but also plan a ceremony with family and friends a few months down the road. I guess technically, they aren't cohabiting because they're married, but it just feels a little weird that we're celebrating two people coming together in marriage, but they've already been married and living together for a while. It also makes marriage seem more focused on the couple,
Scott Rae: Deprioritizing the communal aspect of the wedding or the marriage. Do you have any advice on how best to think through and address this?" Thad, my comment on this is I don't, I don't have a big problem with somebody having a, having a bigger party-
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... After a courthouse wedding.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Since they are legally married, and in my view, they can renew their vows at the bigger party.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And in general, I think it's, it's, it's never inappropriate to renew your vows from time to time.
Thaddeus Williams: Yep.
Scott Rae: Even publicly, to do that on, you know, on milestone anniversaries, to do, to do that publicly. So I don't, I don't see what the issue is here. I think basically they wanna have... They wanna-... They wanna get married, I commend them for getting married before moving in together. And if they wanna have a bigger party later on down the road, I think that's, that's entirely appropriate, too.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, I'm right there with you, Scott. I say, you know, we wanna be careful not to add some 11th commandment, "Thou shalt not-
Scott Rae: Exactly
Thaddeus Williams: -get married in a courthouse before the big family party."
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Thaddeus Williams: I j- I just don't see anything, if we're trying to think biblically about this, anything that would make that out of bounds. And so we wanna be very careful to add to God's requirements. I actually commend this couple that they, didn't cohabit. I mean, that, [chuckles] that-
Scott Rae: Yeah, I agree
Thaddeus Williams: ... That's such a massive cultural problem right now, and the data on this is clear, that cohabitation before marriage, does not tend to go well for folks in terms of-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Thaddeus Williams: ... The success, the lifelong success of their covenant. So the fact that they, went and made it legal and, made it official before the big family party, I say instead of, yeah, throwing some 11th commandment at them, to just celebrate, that God bringing two folks together.
Scott Rae: That's right. Very good. Hey, this is great stuff today, Thad. So grateful for you sitting in for Sean, providing lots of good insight, helping our listeners think biblically and theologically about some of these tough issues that we've had to address today.
Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, lots of fun.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Hey, and I wanna re- I wanna remind our listeners that, as we did last year, Sean and I will be taking the month of July off from the Weekly Cultural Update. This break will enable us to stay fresh for upcoming episodes. However, we will have a bonus episode posted each Friday in July in lieu of our Weekly Cultural Update, which will resume... We'll resume the Cultural Update on August the 8th. We sincerely hope you enjoy all of these bonus episodes that are coming on Fridays in July. In the meantime, this has been an episode of the Think Biblically Weekly Cultural Update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online. [upbeat music] Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. To submit comments, ask questions, make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover, or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app and share it with a friend. And join us on Tuesday for our conversation with Talbot colleague and philosophy Dr. Tim Pickavance on engaging controversial issues without getting too emotional. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
