We hear an increasing number of stories — tragic ones — of recognizable Christian leaders abandoning their faith. What contributes to these accounts of de-conversion? Join Scott and Sean as they interview Dr. John Marriott-a specialist in the subject of de-conversion. He will talk about the factors involved in deconversion and what churches and Christian universities can do to prevent these tragic stories from happening.
About our Guest
Dr. John Marriott serves on the research staff at the Center for Christian Thought at Biola University, and adjunct professor in the department of philosophy.
Scott Rae: Welcome to Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. The podcast from Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. I'm your host, Scott Rae, Dean of Faculty and Professor of Christian Ethics.
Sean McDowell: And I'm your co-host Sean McDowell, Professor of Christian Apologetics.
Scott Rae: We're here today with our longtime good friend, Dr. John Marriott, who is a research director at the Center for Christian Thought here at Biola, and has been an adjunct faculty member in the philosophy departments, both at the undergrad and graduate level at Biola and at Talbot for some time. He is the author of a brand new book that comes out of his PhD dissertation, entitled The Anatomy of deconversion. So John welcome, we're so delighted to have you with us and are very pleased to see your book come out. So welcome.
John Marriott: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with both of you guys. I've learned a lot from you, especially you Scott over the years. Appreciate working with you and the doors that you've opened for me. And so if I can help you guys out on this podcast by being a guest, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me [inaudible].
Scott Rae: John, tell us first of all, what motivated you to write this? Because these are some high profiles stories, and your book is full of these stories of people, high profile leaders who have given up their faith. But it's also a depressing topic and I think it probably takes a special person to spend a good bit of his or her life for the last few years in this subject, and you've dug deeply into this. But why work on this and why write your book on this?
John Marriott: Yeah, that's a good question and it really comes out of an experience that I had, with somebody who had made a real impact in my life and ended up walking away from the faith. A number of years ago, I tell the story in the book of the British Triple jump, Olympic world record and world champion, Jonathan Edwards, who was a hero of mine, because he was a really committed, a believer.
He is like the modern day equivalent of Eric Little, who because of his Christian commitment had decided that he would miss an Olympics because he was... He didn't feel like he could compete on a Sunday. And then out of the blue, he started jumping just these massive distances and shattered the world record a number of times in one year. And the British press was more impressed with the lack of skeletons in his closet and his character, than they were with his amazing triple jumping.
And so, he had become kind of a hero of mine. I was competing at a division one athletic program. And I was really struggling. I wasn't performing up to the standards that I was a scholarship for. And one day I was at, we went to a meet at Florida state university and a friend of mine on the team came out and said, "Hey, you'll never guess who's in the wait room right now." And I said, "I don't know." And I wasn't really in the mood to, to guess. And he said, "Jonathan Edwards is in the wait room right now."
And at that moment, I felt like God had providentially arranged the events of the universe for me to meet the one guy, who if I could have talked to about issues of faith and struggling with performance, it would have been Jonathan Edwards. And so here he is just a few yards away. So I went in, waited till he was all done, introduced myself, tried to convince him that we had a lot of things in common and asked him if he wouldn't mind helping me out with some advice. And he said, "Well, how about I take you out for lunch and we can chat about it."
So we went out for lunch and he told me that when he was done with his track career, he wanted to attend Dallas Theological Seminary and do a systematic study of the nation of Israel. We picked up his wife from a Bible study and we went out for lunch, had a great conversation, talked a lot about faith. And I followed him for the next few years as he went on to win an Olympic gold medal. And it was a really great day for me, because I felt as though that the Lord had heard me in my frustration.
Well, you can imagine then a number of years after that, I decided I know that Jonathan Edwards has been retired and he's one of the most well-known Christians in all of the UK, because he's hosting a program that's the longest running program on television called Songs of Praise, which is broadcast every Sunday morning for folks who often are shut-ins and can't make it out to church. And after he retired, he became the host of that.
So I looked him up to see if I could find any videos of him online. And the headline that I came across was World Record, Triple Jumper Takes Leap Out of Faith.
Scott Rae: Oh.
Sean McDowell: Wow. Ouch.
John Marriott: And I felt as though that someone had punched me in the stomach and I could not reconcile how someone who was so committed to his faith and so genuine and so humble and so well-grounded theologically, could walk away from his faith and say things like, "It really doesn't seem like there's any good, rational reasons to believe in God. And I'm happier now than I've ever been."
Sean McDowell: Wow.
John Marriott: And so I had to get to the bottom of how that could happen. And I discovered that he's just the tip of the iceberg. There are easily 10,000 narratives online, of people who have gone down the same road. And I wanted to know why that happens and what the process looked like.
Sean McDowell: John, when did that happen? When was that story?
John Marriott: That was 1995.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
John Marriott: He left the faith in I think around 2007, maybe. Yeah, 2007.
Sean McDowell: The reason I ask is, I get asked a ton by people. Why are we hearing so many deconversion stories today? And I wrestle with on one side, the reality that the nones N-O-N-E-S, have increased and there's a lack of religiosity with gen Z and younger generations. But we're hearing these increased stories. How much of it is that we're just hearing these stories and the narratives being told more? And there's a push today for everybody to share their story and a platform to do so, versus there really being more deconversion stories than there were in the past.
John Marriott: Yeah. That's a fair question. And it's really hard to know for sure. Because what we do have now, as we're all aware of, is we have this platform that allows a thousand atheist apologists to bloom and to share stories of their deconversion on social media and set up their own web pages. And where in the past, there was very little opportunity, for people to do that. And in atheist, really our small number of the population, but the internet allows them to congregate and to innocence evangelize.
And because of that, I do think that there are more folks who are outright rejecting the faith ,that perhaps at some point down the road, had they never experienced or been exposed to some of the counter ideas that they've encountered online, they may have just walked away from gradually anyway, where wouldn't have become significant in their life. And they may have become a none. But the research does seem to show at least over the last 10 to 15 years, that the number of people who once identified as a follower of Jesus, and of course that needs to be qualified, are leaving the faith.
So for example, as far back as 2009, the Pew Research Center on religion and public life, said that people are leaving Christianity or at least relieving religion, at five to six times with the historic rate has been.
Sean McDowell: Wow.
John Marriott: Pew Research has also said that, for every one person who becomes a Christian, four people are leaving Christianity. And the stat that is most recent, that I just came across from the Pinetops foundation, which perhaps you're familiar with, they put out ... They're a Christian organization who is concerned about evangelizing and the growth of the church. And they conducted a study where they did an aggregate of a number of the studies that have come out over the past several years.
And this has just come out recently, and this is what they have to say. The bottom line is, the next 30 years, will represent the largest missions opportunity in the history of America. It is the largest and fastest numerical shift in religious affiliation in the history of the country. Even in the most optimistic scenarios, Christian affiliation in the U.S. shrinks dramatically. And our base case of over 1 million youth, at least nominally in the church today, will choose to leave each year for the next three decades.
Sean McDowell: Gosh.
John Marriott: 35 million youth raised in families that call themselves Christians, will say that they are no Christians by 2050. We believe that our best case likely underestimates the problem. And while it's hard to find clear data, as far as we can tell, this is the single largest generational loss of souls in the history of people who were at least nominally raised in the Christian Church and no longer call themselves followers of Jesus.
Sean McDowell: Wow.
Scott Rae: Wow. Now I guess it's clear why you wrote the book.
Sean McDowell: Exactly.
Scott Rae: Hey, John, I'm sure there are a number of factors that go into somebody deconverting their intellectual issues, their emotional, psychological issues. What are the various factors that contribute to someone deconverting? And if you had to weigh them in terms of importance, what would be the top two or three on that list?
John Marriott: Yeah. The challenge with that question is, is that as we know, I mean, if you were to ask the question of why do people convert to Christianity? The answer would be really varied. And you might ask them, "Why did you convert?" And they might say, "Well, because I was convinced it's true." And then you might say, "But why are you convinced that it's true?" And then they might give you reasons. But we know that there are a lot of other layers that go on when someone commits to Christ, that are outside of our conscious awareness.
I think that happens a lot when it comes to why people leave the faith. The answer, if you were to ask those folks who have left, "Why did you leave?" Will always be the following. And that is that we just don't find that it's true anymore. We don't believe that it's true. And if you were to ask them why that's the case, they would give you two broad categories they would offer us explanations. And the first would be, that they would say that there are intellectual reasons that they can no longer believe in the truth of Christianity, or even in the existence of God.
And that would be problems with the Bible, contradictions between the Bible and science, the morality of the Bible, or maybe God in parts of the Bible, or that there are just no good arguments or no evidence for the existence of God. And of course, they would be persuaded that you shouldn't believe something, unless you have good evidence for it. So that would be the first category. The other would be, people who have left because they have been emotionally hurt. Whether that's by people in the church who they felt have been judgmental, or hypocritical, or they've had bad experiences with church leadership, or they have had what they think is a bad experience with God.
And when that happens, and God doesn't live up to our expectations, which actually I think is probably the greater problem here. There's a sense of betrayal. And we really expect God to come through for us. And there's this deep reciprocity principle that I think that we all operate by, that says, if you live for God and you're serving God, then there should be positive things that come out of that. And how come I've lived for God my whole life. And now all these terrible things are happening to me? He's letting me down, He's kind of betrayed me and maybe He's not even there.
Sean McDowell: It doesn't surprise me to read your book and hear so much emotional hurt that's going on between it. I find the same thing with progressive Christians, that oftentimes the pain is driving it. And you're right, that it's a combination of the two together. And sometimes knowing exactly what's motivating it, is easier said than done. One of the thing's that I thought was fascinating about your book, and I could see your philosophical training coming through here, is you have this model of the process of deconversion. Like a step-by-step model. Could you walk us through what some of those steps are?
John Marriott: Yeah. I'd be happy to. The first step, is usually going to be that someone identifies as a Christian is where they're going to start out. But from there, there usually is some kind of catalyst that causes them to begin to question. And I would say that a large percentage of people who have the ... For the catalyst for people is, is really going to be some kind of an emotional hurt, as you just mentioned. Because if you're happy in your community, if you feel loved, if you feel accepted, it's easy to say, "I'm not really sure exactly how to cash out the Trinity. And I'm not sure how I reconcile the problem of evil and the loving God."
But those can be pushed to the back of your mind and you're willing to live in the tension of that. As long as your social needs are being met, you feel loved, and you're in a community that is beneficial for you. But as soon as that shift takes place, it opens the door to then saying, I've actually wondered about this stuff. And I got a lot of questions that I've just suppressed." And the catalyst is always going to be one of those two things. It's going to be, I'm presented with new information, that I can't reconcile intellectually with what I already believe, or I've really been hurt. And being hurt, it's caused me to question whether or not this is something that I want to continue in.
So that would be the first issue. I think that there is a catalyst that takes place. And then after the process has begun, the second stage would be something along the lines of seeking truth, right? So they say, "I've come up with this incoherence. I need to find coherence in my worldview. How do I reconcile this new information, with what I believed all along about Christianity?" And if that's not possible, after the search continues, and there is an inability to bring in these contradictory states of affairs or facts or beliefs that a person wants to hold, then for the most part, you will move from being a believer, perhaps to suspending your faith, becoming somewhat agnostic.
And then after that, given enough time, it's possible that you will move then to the stage of becoming someone who says I'm an atheist, or I'm not a Christian, at least I've rejected that. And then there would be the stage where you would maybe come out and say, "Hey, I don't believe this anymore. And I want my community to know, and I'm going to disengage from that. And I'm going to renounce what I believe." So variations of that, seem to be the pattern.
Scott Rae: John, when they come to the end of that process, maybe before they actually come out and go public. But, when they've just basically decided that I no longer consider Christian faith plausible, are there things that people who deconvert tend to miss about their life of faith? Or is it basically the sense of relief and I'm out of here and they kind of they're moving ahead and don't look back? Which is it?
John Marriott: It's a little of both. A lot of folks would say that the impact of losing their faith has been significantly negative. Because you can imagine, not only has your identity shifted now, everything you had once I called yourself and identified as, that's changed. So there's a sense where you may not know exactly who you are. Your community has changed, because no matter how much you still want to hang around with your old Christian friends, who may be the might be the extent of your community, that doesn't last for very long if you've renounced the worldview that's at the center of their life.
Family relationships can be strained, especially marriages. I get emails occasionally from people who tel me about their spouse has now shifted. And they say, I'm no longer a Christian and they are. And often it ends up in divorce. So there are a lot of negative impacts in deconverting on a personal level. But what you might be really surprised at, and this is what really surprised me and caused me to say, this is where I think that I need to start thinking about in the future. Is almost everyone that I've spoken to, or that the testimonies that I've read, have said this, they've said, "It has been difficult, it has been hard, but it has been worth it for the freedom that I've experienced, because I am happier now and more liberated now than I ever was as a Christian. And I wouldn't want to go back."
Scott Rae: For freedom from what specifically?
John Marriott: Well, for that, you'd have to look at the context from which a lot of people who once identified as Christians and have left, what kind of Christianity did they come out of? And often, you will find what I would use the term aspects of fundamentalism. Where it was primarily a Christian faith that was driven by lots of rule keeping, lots of separation from the world, a critical and negative attitude towards other people.
They would feel now as though they are more morally, they have advanced morally because they are more tolerant, they are more accepting of others, they don't have to try and see other people as those they need to evangelize and save because they're going to hell. But they look at them as more of a part of the collective humanity that we're all a part of. And it would be those kinds of things that they would say I've left that behind. And I'm now free from the ... As one person put it, I'm free from the weight that had been tied around my ankle for so many years. I can be who I am.
Sean McDowell: You just kind of hinted at this a little bit, but the relational consequences for deconverts can be great with friends, with the church. But one thing that jumped out to me, is you talked about how moms tend to suffer more than dads. Can you explain that a little bit?
John Marriott: It seems as though in the people that I've interacted with and listening to their stories, that for some of them, the relationship that they had with their father, may not have been what they had with their moms. That the majority of people who move in this direction, just statistically speaking, are young males. And it may be that they have a connection with their mom. And because of that, and maybe a more nurturing, endearing relationship that they have with their mother, than they do maybe with their father.
But I also can't help but wonder if there is a bit of an attachment issue where, if we don't bond and attach really well with our authoritative figures specifically our parents, when we're young and we ended up developing either an anxious attachment, or a weak attachment, then it's harder for us perhaps to bond with God. And so it may be the case that when it comes to fathers, the fathers don't take it as hard because they're not as emotionally maybe invested with their children, that have left the faith. And because of that, that might be some sort of causal factor in perhaps why they've left the faith.
Scott Rae: John, it would seem to me some of the things that people would lose as a result of deconverting, would be any kind of transcended faith would provide for someone. A sense of meaning, an assurance about the afterlife, objective morality, things like that. I mean, how do folks who deconvert, cope with things like losing transcendent meaning, losing anything about the afterlife and losing really a grounded, moral sense?
John Marriott: That reminds me of when I began our discussion today, talking about Jonathan Edwards. I had read a comment that he had made where he said, "Yes, it has been pointed out to me, that I no longer have any ultimate meaning for life. And that is a loss. However, it's not worth believing something that's untrue, in order just to deceive yourself that you have a sense of meaning." And for people who believe that they have come to see the truth here, and that the truth is that God doesn't exist, I think that many of them would respond similar to a Jonathan Edwards has to say, is that, "Yes, we have lost some things, but it's better to be in the truth and lose those, than to be deceived and to think that those things are available to us."
Sean McDowell: John, in the book, you talk a lot about people who leave the Christian faith and become atheists and agnostics. One question I have is, how many of them hold on to their faith for a while and become maybe some kind of progressive Christian for a while? And that would be things like, taking an affirming view on LGBTQ relationships, maybe embraces some kind of annihilationist view and rejecting hell and some kind of universalism. Maybe saying the Bible special in some sense, but has errors. In other words, a way of still holding onto this Christian faith in some sense, by getting rid of some of the doctrines that tend to be troubling to people who deconvert. How much was that a part of the research that you heard?
John Marriott: It wasn't, it wasn't much that I did. I didn't actually come across a lot of people who had left the faith because they started down the progressive road. But, this is a big concern that I do have. Because as you know, Bart Campolo, son of Tony Campolo, who's now the humanist chaplain at USC last I heard, makes the claim that once you start what he calls sort of liberalizing your beliefs and heading in that direction, many of the examples that you just gave, you will end up eventually getting rid of your faith.
Because in some ways it's an entire piece and when you start to pull a lot of those out, it's hard to end up with anything that really looks like Christianity, or anything that's actually worth holding on to anymore. And I think when I did my research and I was investigating these things, the people who I had met and who I encountered, were people who had left their faith years before. Some of them 10 years before, some of them 15 years before.
I think that what we're potentially seeing now, is the idea of progressive Christianity being like a halfway house, that for some may keep them in something that resembles the Christian faith, depending on how progressive they want to become. And a halfway house that's for people who are on their way out of the faith. And one of the projects that I have in the back of my mind that I would like to work on, is a book entitled something like a Faithful Deconstruction.
Sean McDowell: Interesting.
John Marriott: As you know, deconstruction is the watchword amongst young evangelicals, where they want to pull apart their faith and say, "I've been handed this entire package and it's been called Christianity, but I'm not sure that the entire thing is Christianity. So let me pull apart all of the pieces and see which ones I think are viable and ones that line up with what I think. And then I'll rebuild my faith." And I think that everyone needs to do that at some point. In the past, we didn't call it deconstruction. We just said something like we're always reforming.
But what I'm concerned about now, is when I hear people talk about this deconstruction. They're not just taking off the shingles of the roof on the house of faith. In some cases, they will go right down to the studs and then even start demolishing the foundation and rebuilding on something that's not explicitly Christian. And I think that that's going to be an increasing problem in years to come for faith retention.
Sean McDowell: John, I hope you will write that book. I've had conversations with progressive Christians. I've had a few with Bard Camppolo interestingly enough. And I think there's a need for that resource, and it's only going to grow. So I'd encourage to do it. Bart, by the way, he's actually left working at USC. And he's back in Cincinnati doing his humanist ministry there, but he was actually the person that motivated that question. So you're spot on to what I was thinking.
John Marriott: Yeah. Well, listen, if you ever want to co-author a book and I'm open for a coauthor.
Sean McDowell: I love it. Thanks.
Scott Rae: Hey, John, toward the end of the book, you have some pretty encouraging stories of people who come full circle and come back to their faith. What happens when people do that? What's the process like for that?
John Marriott: Usually what happens is, if it's an emotional reason why they left, often they will find that the community that they left and the community that they went to, have all of the same problems. My good friend, who at one time was working on her dissertation at a university research level one university, and was a Christian at one point in her life, had helped start a couple churches, was involved in the praise and worship band and was a youth leader for five or six years. She played all of those roles.
Eventually lost her faith. She was really hurt by the church that she was a part of. And she went on to go from there, in order to make money, to make over 200 adult films.
Sean McDowell: Gosh.
Scott Rae: Wow.
John Marriott: She wrote an article called, The True Family, The Church of God, or The Community of Porn. And talked about how the porn community was far more accepting and far more loving. And the atheist community is far better than the Christian community. Until she had been in the secular community as a fairly well-known personality long enough, and realized that the people there that she thought were so welcoming and loving, were worse off than the community of Christians that she actually left.
And her move back to God, came through a tragic experience that happened with her daughter, who had flat-lined because she had overdosed on heroin. And this woman who was a nationally known speaker for the secular student Alliance, got down on her knees and cried out to God to save her, but God saved her daughter. And she has now come back to the faith and publicly identifies on social media as a follower of Jesus again.
So, the road back for some people, is going to be emotional and through crisis. For others, if it's a theological or a doctrinal or an intellectual issue, often the return will be to a Christian faith that perhaps looks a little bit different, than the one that they left. For example, one guy in the book I talked about, came from a background that was shallow in theology and high on experience.
And he thought as he kind of came to age, that there was nothing here. It was so shallow and, and, and vapid and left the faith. And then eventually came across reformed theology. And found the intellectual side of Christianity. That there was something really there to believe in. And he came back to faith, but it didn't look like the faith that he left.
And I think that there is certainly room for that. The question is how much room? And what kind of faith are you coming back to? Because as we said earlier, versions of what we would call, for lack of a better term, progressive Christianity, in my opinion, are depending on how you define it, start to look like something other than perhaps a legitimate version of Christianity to return to.
Sean McDowell: John, a final question for you. That's really the final kind of section of your book, where you talk about practical takeaways for the church. And I was reading those just going in my mind, Amen. Amen. Because it matches my experience. And so much of the research that I've done and just conversations I've had with people who have deconverted. Give us maybe two or three of the big points that you unpack of practical things we could do better, to try to minimize the bleeding of people out of the church and the faith.
John Marriott: Yeah. Thanks. I think that's a really important question. I would say that there's two different ways that I think that we need to go about doing this. And one I'm going to call avoiding, the other will be averting. I think we want to avoid setting up folks for a crisis of faith. And I think we want to try and avert folks from reaching the end of that journey, right? So there might be people who are heading down that road, and there are some things that maybe we can do to help avert that.
When I think of avoiding, I think of inoculating young people with information that they need to hear from Christian sources, that they will inevitably encounter on the internet from non-Christian hostile sources. When you and I were coming up and we were young in our teens and interested in apologetics, there were apologetic ministries, there were apologetic radio programs, Christian publishing houses, you name it, it was easy to access.
But there was never any counter apologetic ministry out there, except for maybe a couple atheist publishing houses like Promethease. But now the internet has made that a very level playing field. Your dad has spoken I think, quite eloquently about the impact that the internet has. And things that no one ever would encounter unless they were in seminary and getting exposed to the composition of the Bible and the process of canonicity and textual transmission. Now are being presented in a way, in a format, that is really unhelpful and can cause a tremendous amount of doubt, and damage to a young person's faith.
So what I think we need to do, is we need to start addressing some of the issues that if they were to come across them from another source, could cause them problems. And I think the most important one is, is what exactly is the Bible? What does inspiration mean? What does an errancy mean? It doesn't mean that if there is two different accounts of the same event, that it's necessarily an error. And so I think we need to take the lead and expose young people to some of these, because they're going to get exposed to them anyway. So that would be the first thing as far as avoiding goes.
The second thing as far as avoiding goes, is that we need to make sure that the faith that we're passing on, is a faith that is not a bloated, fragile inflexible house of cards. Now, I really respect and I really believe that as a follower of Jesus, that He's the Lord in, that His word is true and that we submit to it. And that means if we come across something in His word that we believe is true, then we are obligated to follow it.
But sometimes that message that gets passed on is, well, you need to follow what the Bible has to say if you're really a follower of Jesus and want to be a genuine Christian. And here I'm going to tell you and give you what the Bible has to say. And instead of giving them the core essentials of what it means to be a Christian, we sometimes pass on a bloated interpretation, or spin, or take of what that is.
And I had a good friend last night, who Facebooked me and said, "Hey, I saw your new book come out. I just want you to know I was one of those people who almost walked away from the faith.
Sean McDowell: Wow.
John Marriott: ... Because I was somebody who was told this is Christianity. And if you don't believe at all, then you don't believe any of it."
Sean McDowell: Gosh.
Scott Rae: Ouch.
John Marriott: And if you pull out one card from a house of cards, the whole thing collapses. And they said, "I felt like I had to believe in." You list off all of the things that well legitimate, theological positions for a person to hold, are perhaps not legitimate to force on someone else in order to be a follower of Jesus. So I think we want to go deep on core issues. And I think that we want to be careful that we're not burdening folks with things that they don't have to hold onto in order to be a Christian. So that would be how I think that we can avoid ... A couple of the ways we can avoid setting up people for a crisis of faith.
Scott Rae: John, this has been a super helpful discussion. I hope our listeners have found this to be an arresting one too. Maybe to get your attention about things that you hadn't thought much about before. Particularly your advice about preparing the next generation of students and young adults with the kinds of things that they're going to encounter on the internet. I think is such a helpful bit of advice to get out in front of those things and anticipate those.
And for our listeners, if you're not familiar with the book, we highly recommend to you, John. Dr. John Marriott, The Anatomy of Deconversion. It's so helpful, it's so insightful. And John, it's been rich to have you on this with us. We so appreciate the hard work that you've done, the deep research that you've done into this and our prayers go out for the book that it gets a super wide reading. And that people in the church, particularly people in leadership in the church take these things seriously, so that we can avoid and avert. And as Sean put it to sort of stop the bleeding from the church and from the faith. So John, I'm so delighted to have you with us. Thanks so much for being with us.
John Marriott: My pleasure. Thank you very much.
Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast, Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. Think Biblically podcast is brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Offering programs in Southern California and online, including our masters in Christian apologetics, which is now offered fully online. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app and share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening and remember, think biblically about everything.