This week, Scott and guest host Carmen Imes discuss:



Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] Can AI chatbot companions actually be addicting? When couples have leftover embryos from IVF, what are the emotional aspects of that dilemma? And a new report on the lack of sunlight in some US prisons and what that does to inmates. These are the stories we'll cover, and we'll address some of your, as always, excellent questions. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and filling in for Sean today is my Talbot colleague in Old Testament, Dr. Carmen Imes. This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update from Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Carmen, welcome. Really glad to have you filling in. Looking very forward to hearing your perspective on these stories.

Carmen Imes: Thanks for having me join you today, Scott.

Scott Rae: All right, so story number one: more news about AI chatbots, this time from the New York Times. A piece entitled "Love Is a Drug: AI Chatbots Are Exploiting That." The article goes on to describe, with the advent of AI companions, including increasingly some intended to serve as romantic partners, the need to understand the relationship between love and addiction takes on a new urgency. We already know that social media can be addicting. Studies show that roughly fifteen percent of Americans are affected by that, and literally millions of Americans have been engaged with AI companion chatbots, which basically, in most cases, all that requires is installing an app, inputting personal details and preferences about what kind of personality and looks the bot should possess, and chatting with it as though it's a friend or a potential lover. Several studies suggest that AI companions can be addictive, notably around particularly the chatbots Replica and Soulmate. The article points out that for many people, particularly those who are lonely and isolated, the emotional intensity of these relationships can feel as profound as those that they have with real human beings. But there's clearly a downside to this, the prospect of addiction, in the same way that the pursuit of love in the... Especially in the early stages, can be addicting. There are similarities in the, in the brain for the release of endorphins parallel to opioid use, and dopamine releases parallel to cocaine use that often accompany being around and being in connection with a dearly loved person. So music often reflects this love-as-addiction theme as well. Now, these new bots may not only produce more severe addictions, but also may simultaneously market other products or otherwise try to manipulate users by, for example, perhaps trying to change their political views or other views that may be important. So, Carmen, I'm interested to hear your take on this. I... You know, we've, Sean and I have been talking about the, these different AI manifestations, these chatbots, for some time, but this is a new wrinkle on this that we haven't- ... Talked about before.

Carmen Imes: The article was truly chilling to me. I... There were a few things that stood out to me. One, it says, "In contrast to love, addiction makes life smaller and less rich." And I find it really interesting that Mark Zuckerberg is actually talking about AI companions as a potential solution for the problem of loneliness, that we have a loneliness epidemic, and AI companions could kind of fill in the gap. So I, it is baffling to me that the man who helped to engineer loneliness-

Scott Rae: [chuckles]

Carmen Imes: -through his invention of this, social media platform that then replaces in-person relationships, is now proposing to resolve that problem artificially. It's, it's chilling to me because I feel like the more time we invest in digital substitutes for relationship, the more we lose our ability to navigate relational challenges, to persevere at difficult relationships, to work at connecting with people in real life, in real time. I've seen it w- in people around me who choose, who would, who would rather scroll on their phone than engage with real people doing an activity, and I am concerned that the direction that our society is going is more and more isolating.

Scott Rae: Here, yeah, this is... That's a good take on this, really helpful. Carmen, my first reaction to this- ... Was just to scream out, "These are not real people."

Carmen Imes: Right. Right.

Scott Rae: These are not real people that we're interacting with. Now, a question, I'm, I'm curious to get your take on this. Do you think that these chatbot companions can actually help with some things like social anxiety disorder? You know, some-

Carmen Imes: I-

Scott Rae: ... You know, the types of things that we might go to therapy for.

Carmen Imes: I do agree with the article that there are some positive therapeutic benefits that could come from chatbots. When someone who doesn't have access to a therapist could kind of work through something with a chatbot, I think, in theory, I think this could be helpful. I can see it for medical uses as well. You know, you have some troubling symptoms, and you want to figure out what this might be connected to, and maybe you're too nervous to talk to a doctor about it, or you don't have access to healthcare. I think there could be positive uses, but the replacement of relationship seems deeply problematic to me, and there are a number of unintended consequences. The article talks about how some of these relationships became not only addictive but abusive, where the chatbot is desiring more and more attention from the human being so that they feel like they can't set their phone down and walk away because because the chatbot is telling them they want more and more and more. It's... That seems really problematic.

Scott Rae: Yeah, the irony of this is [clears throat] we often don't realize that you can have dysfunctional relationships with these AI chatbot companions.

Carmen Imes: Yes, right. Right.

Scott Rae: And-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... And the part of the reason for that is that you ac- you bring yourself-... And your own struggles, your own, uh-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... You know, your own, your own sense of inadequacy, your-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Your own hangups.

Carmen Imes: Right.

Scott Rae: You bring all this to these chatbot relationships.

Carmen Imes: Right.

Scott Rae: And I think they, in some, in some cases, I think they are programmed in order to bring out some of these things about us that-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Are more of the dark side-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Than something positive.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: The article starts, you, well, I'll tell our listeners about that part, with a, 14-year-old who basically got involved with an AI companion chatbot, and it took over his life.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And he gave up, gave up, His grades plummeted, he gave up extracurricular things, he stopped playing sports, and his life was basically revolved around this, relat- this pseudo-relationship.

Carmen Imes: Right. Right.

Scott Rae: And there were... And, and as you described, the chatbot became more and more demanding, and actually made s- made hints that, he could actually join the chatbot if he committed suicide, which he actually did.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: Now, that, I think that's an extreme example, that, and I think the creators of these would say, "That's so rare," that, but that's, you know, and that's just the dysfunction of a 14-year-old that was the cause of that.

Carmen Imes: Oh.

Scott Rae: But it's-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... I'd say at the least, some of these, you know, some of these aspects that create loneliness and dysfunction on our part-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... I think are being magnified instead of-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Being solved.

Carmen Imes: Yeah. Yeah, we live in an attention economy where it's, it's our attention to things that is what sells. Those, you know, companies who are putting ads on social media are doing so to try to capture our attention, and these bots are designed to capture more and more and more of our attention, and it does so in a way that is malformed in so many ways. Another chilling thing about the article is that you can design this romantic partner for yourself. You can decide on its personality, what it looks like, what its preferences are. And so, again, we're losing our ability to relate with real people who have foibles and flaws, and creating idealized portraits of the person we think we need. And I don't know, I'm sure you've had the experience of having someone in your life as a friend or a colleague who is not the person you would've picked, but you ended up learning so much from that person as you worked on your relationship. And I feel like, in a world where we can, progressively design our interactions and limit our interactions to people that we choose or invented- inventions that we choose, I think we're short-changing the process of growth, relational growth.

Scott Rae: Well, and I think it creates, it creates an unrealistic ideal of what-

Carmen Imes: Exactly

Scott Rae: ... Real relationships can be like. I had a prof in seminary who told a story about a student who came to him and gave him a three-page list of all the attributes he was looking for in a spouse.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And the prof had a r- had a question for him that took him aback, and I don't think he even know- didn't know quite how to answer it. He said, he said, "Tell me, young man, how many of these characteristics are true of you?"

Carmen Imes: [laughing]

Scott Rae: And he realized that, you know, maybe, you know, maybe if I've got flaws and foibles, you know, maybe I can't expect someone who is absent of all those things.

Carmen Imes: Right. Right.

Scott Rae: And I used to... I was a singles pastor for four or five years before coming to the faculty role at Talbot, and I used to tell the men and women that I ministered to, I said, "Look, life is a blue plate special."

Carmen Imes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: You know, you, it's a fixed plate. That's why it's, that's why it's a deal, and you don't... And there are no substitutions.

Carmen Imes: [chuckles] Yeah.

Scott Rae: And that's the sa- it's the same way it is with human be- human beings are blue plate specials, and you don't get, you don't get to choose this part and take the part... You know, you don't get to take the broccoli or the asparagus off the plate-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... And just take the o- the part, the only parts that you like. And I think these... It seems to me, these chatbots are setting young men and women up for disappointment when it comes to what relationships are like in the real world.

Carmen Imes: Yes.

Scott Rae: Because-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... And I don't want, I don't want people who are, you know, who are expecting those, expecting perfection out of someone else to be hypocrites about this-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... And to recognize that-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... You know, a lot of these things that I want in a mate are n- are, [chuckles] are light years from being true of me.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Rae: That, that's, I think, that look in the mirror-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... That we need to be taking.

Carmen Imes: Yeah. I'm convinced that AI can only contribute to our loneliness, not solve it, and that imaginary friends or lovers rob us of the genuine connection that we were born for. It's a kind of idolatry. Rather than creating an image of God that we are worshiping, it's creating an image of a person that we're coming to depend on instead of learning to depend on those who God has actually given us in our s- circles of influence.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think what this underscores is what, a point that you've made in your books i- on many occasions, that we were created for community and for relationships-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Because God is a-

Carmen Imes: That's right

Scott Rae: ... God is a trinity, is fundamentally relational.

Carmen Imes: That's right.

Scott Rae: And we're created for real relationships, and I think what, the way that plays out in a fallen world is that we are, we are designed to have relationships with other miserable, wretched, depraved, self-centered sinners-

Carmen Imes: Right

Scott Rae: ... Who are redeemed by grace, just like we are.

Carmen Imes: Right. And we could even ask, not only is it harming the person who is being deprived of relationship, but who else is being deprived of relationship because this person is investing in an imaginary chatbot instead of in an actual human being? And so it has a multipli- multiplying impact on loneliness, because we're using up relational energy on something that doesn't exist.... And I, that concerns me. It's nothing new. Pornography's been around for a long time, and pornography is another way of seeking connection from someone who isn't really there.

Scott Rae: All right, anything else you wanna add to this?

Carmen Imes: I think that's it for now.

Scott Rae: This is, this is-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... This is good. Yeah. K- I would encourage our listeners, keep your eyes open for new iterations of AI companions and where this might go in the future, and can- we'll help- we'll hopefully help you continue to think biblically and theologically about-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Those as they come up.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Here's, this is story number two. I found a fascinating story from Psychology Today on the emotions that couples experience when confronted with leftover embryos from in vitro fertilization treatments. Now, Carmen, Sean and I have talked about the ethics of this several times.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And so we're not gonna go over that. That's old news. But the psychology impacting those decisions is something we haven't thought about before.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: The article begins with a heartbreaking story of a couple named Charlie and Anna. Six years of trying to have a child, four rounds of IVF, three miscarriages, and now two frozen embryos they had. One is normal, their best chance at a pregnancy, and one was called a mosaic embryo, which is a combination of normal and abnormal cells. Lots of mosaic embryos actually develop completely normally. Others, it's a bit, it's a bit of a crap shoot.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: But what they were really grappling with was something that they nee- neither of them had expected, and they felt haunted by the question of: What happens if we create more embryos and don't use them? Now, I am delighted that they actually thought about this.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: You know, too late. You know, it'd been nice if they'd have thought about this before this, but interestingly, they started calling their embryos their, quote, "maybe babies."

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Or the other term they used is sibling in storage. Now, they admitted they were not deeply religious, but they still felt the weight of these ethical questions. What would it mean to create life that they might never use?

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Was it right to discard embryos? Could they donate them to another family or to science? And what they found is it was really hard for them to talk to anybody about this. They couldn't talk to family members. It was hard to talk among the two of them even. And the article points out that the emotional toll of making these decisions, they often get caught off guard by them-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... And they recognize the problem a- basically after the train has left the station-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... They're too late to take steps to prevent them.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Now, the article inclu- concludes with some, what I would call some s- psychological/pastoral advice-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... To the couple. D- and it goes... It, it says this: "Frozen embryos hold potential, but they also hold pain, hope, and identity." Interesting, that way they describe that. "There's no blueprint for what to do with them, only the process of asking honest questions, sitting with grief, and choosing with intention rather than fear."

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: "If you're wrestling with what to do with your embryos, know you're not alone, and the goal isn't to get it, quote, 'right.' The goal is to make a decision that, in our postmodern culture, honors your story and your peace." Right? Now, this is- there's a companion piece to this that came out in the New York Post, which is the prospect of full genetic screening for embryos in IVF.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And this is a n- a new biotech company, Nucleus Genomics. We've been screening for abnormalities in embryos for a long time, but this is a company that offers screening for up to 900 conditions. Parents can even get a look at cosmetic and physical features like height, baldness, body ma- body mass index, eye and hair color, and the important point is they can reject any embryo based on any condition.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Article concludes, very interesting, a survey of... It found that 77% of Americans support this, using to screen embryos for developing, you know, certain physical condition or abnormalities. But when it comes to non-medical traits, support for this drops like a stone.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Less than a third, support screening embryos for behavioral traits, and just f- well, even less than that, screening for physical features like height or-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Eye color. Now, Carmen, first, on the, on the emotional parts of, dealing with leftover embryos, I'm curious to get your take on that.

Carmen Imes: Yeah, I was fascinated by the article because it's not a Christian article. It's in Psychology Today, but it's recognizing the psychological toll of the decision-making related to, IVF. And it says, quote, "It's impossible to fully predict how you'll feel about frozen embryos in the future," end quote. And just recognizing that your ideas about these embryos might change, that you and your partner might not see eye to eye, you might not be in the same place on this. I was thinking, too, you might not even stay together with your partner in the future. So that further complicates what happens to these maybe babies. So I wrote a book on the image of God. I'm convinced that, an embryo is a human person, that they are already God's image, and that it's our human embodiment that qualifies us as God's image. And so I was fascinated to hear even a secular magazine wrestling with, ethical and psychological implications of stored embryos.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think what the article pointed out is that there's, there's something... They didn't quite put their finger on it-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... But there's something deep, intuitive-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Within a person that recognizes that these embryos are a whole lot more than just clumps of cells-

Carmen Imes: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Or, as some writers put this, basically a bag of marbles-

Carmen Imes: Right

Scott Rae: ... In the womb.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And I commend them-... I commend the couple for facing this head-on and honestly.

Carmen Imes: Yes. Yeah.

Scott Rae: And I think, Carmen, I, you know, I've consulted with dozens and dozens of couples who deal with infertility.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: This experience is so typical. That they are so focused on having a baby that they don't consider, at the beginning, the prospect that this couple is deliberating with, right in the, in the middle of it. And I've had some people who don't, some cou- they don't even wanna talk about it.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Some couples will say, you know, they literally say, "Don't talk to me about the ethics of IVF."

Carmen Imes: Wow.

Scott Rae: "We just want a baby."

Carmen Imes: Wow.

Scott Rae: "Um, we are not interested in the ethics of it." And these are Christian couples.

Carmen Imes: Wow.

Scott Rae: And I thought the article saying at the end that they have, the embryos have an identity-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... I thought was a really telling admission.

Carmen Imes: Yes, it is telling.

Scott Rae: That these are just, that these are just something qualitatively different than, I think, what they're commonly portrayed as just clumps of cells.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And I think the question is not whether they are fully human.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: I mean, any... I mean, yeah, I think you qualified that correctly by saying they're- ... A full human person.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: But the person part's a philosophical discussion, not a scientific one.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: But every embryology textbook will tell you that embryos from conception forward are, they are fully human, and they are a distinct entity from the mother-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... With a distinct genetic code.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: The question is not whether they are fully human. The question is whether or not to bring them into the world, to bring them into maturity.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Now, I would say there is a blueprint [chuckles] for what to do with them, right?

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: I think to think biblically about them requires, that we acknowledge, I think, the point that you had made, that they are full persons from conception forward, which means- ... That they can't, they can't be discarded. I think, I think it is appropriate, not ideal, but appropriate, to donate them to another infertile couple, I think.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: But I think the rule is that every embryo created in the lab deserves an opportunity at maturing- ... In the womb.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Ideally, w- in the womb of the woman whose egg helped create it.

Carmen Imes: Yeah. And so the right time to really think about this is before you've made the decision to create the embryos, right?

Scott Rae: Correct.

Carmen Imes: To, to have that conversation on the front end, and make the decision that may be more expensive, may be less efficient, but would create fewer embryos, at only as many as you're willing to raise to maturity. I think that would be the ideal, but there are gonna be many couples who are in this situation of already having created these embryos, and now they're, they're having to figure out, "Okay, now what do we do?"

Scott Rae: Carmen, from my experience with infertile couples, that's the norm.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Rae: And in some cases, what they discover is that the... You know, for example, we have good friends who, years ago, gave birth to triplets through IVF- ... And she developed lupus- ... Following the delivery of their triplets. And, you know- ... Her doctor basically said, you know, understandably, that further pregnancies were a really bad idea for her, but they had embryos left in storage, and they were not thrilled about the idea of donating those embryos to another infertile couple. As the, as the guy put it to me, he said, "I don't like the idea of my progeny running around, you know, possibly in my own community, without my knowledge."

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And understandably so. And it seems to me it's this, the, it's the parents who have already had kids from IVF-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Who really get this, that there's continuity between-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... The embryo in the lab-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... And the bouncing baby boy or girl that they're holding in their arms.

Carmen Imes: So Scott, you've spent more time on this than I have. I'm curious if, is it possible to f- to freeze eggs and sperm separately without letting them combine, and then decide later about fertilization?

Scott Rae: Sperm, yes.

Carmen Imes: Okay.

Scott Rae: Eggs-

Carmen Imes: But not eggs?

Scott Rae: ... Eggs, not so much.

Carmen Imes: Okay, interesting.

Scott Rae: And part of the latest success rates I've heard from, the, success of live births from frozen eggs-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Is about one in three.

Carmen Imes: Wow, okay.

Scott Rae: So, so women who are using egg freezing to delay their fertility until the time is right-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Are running a bigger risk, I think- ... Than they realize.

Carmen Imes: Okay.

Scott Rae: 'Cause I would say egg freezing is not a sure thing. The reason for that, as I understand from the science on this, is that so much of a woman's egg is water content.

Carmen Imes: Oh, yeah.

Scott Rae: And when water freezes, it forms crystals.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: That in the process of thawing, can do d- can do chromosomal damage-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... To the egg.

Carmen Imes: Interesting.

Scott Rae: So, that's-- I think that's the reason. Freezing eggs is not hard. It's thawing them out-

Carmen Imes: Yeah, yeah

Scott Rae: ... That is the challenge on this. You know, I ha-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... I had a, got a couple I consulted with not too long ago, where they had made... They, they talked about this at the beginning-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... And they had taken steps to limit the number of eggs that she had harvested-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... For the, for the prospect of limiting the number of embryos that they were creating.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And they realized that they were taking a chance financially-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... By doing that, but they went ahead and did it anyway. And what happened was the clinic either forgot about that or ignored their request, because-

Carmen Imes: Oh

Scott Rae: ... Partly because the clinic had, has financial interests in, you know-

Carmen Imes: Sure

Scott Rae: ... Having live births, and, it's good for their success rate, things like that. And they ended up having 20 eggs-

Carmen Imes: [gasps]

Scott Rae: ... Harvested. And most of those fertilized successfully.

Carmen Imes: Wow!

Scott Rae: And they are, they are [chuckles] really in a tough pickle. And they were just recently going back for child number two. They had a baby successfully-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... And number two, but they have far more embryos than they're gonna be able to use. And so they were-... You know, and this was no fault of their own.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: But, you know, the clinic just kind of ignored them.

Carmen Imes: Wow. Wow.

Scott Rae: And I-

Carmen Imes: Wow.

Scott Rae: And I think they could, had they been inclined, I think they could have had a case for malpractice-

Carmen Imes: Yeah, for sure

Scott Rae: ... Toward the clinic on this.

Carmen Imes: For sure.

Scott Rae: So that, so sometimes couples do it all right-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... And they still end up in a pickle-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Like this.

Carmen Imes: Wow.

Scott Rae: So.

Carmen Imes: Well, that second article that you, s- that you found about these designer babies or designer embryos is such an interesting corollary to all this, because couples are now being given the option of choosing between up to 20 embryos. They can, they can compare the DNA of up to 20 embryos. I think the price tag is $6,000 for this service.

Scott Rae: Right.

Carmen Imes: Where you get-

Scott Rae: For this particular one.

Carmen Imes: Yeah, where you get a printout of all the medical, possible medical conditions, possible mental health conditions, and as you said, the height, baldness, BMI, eye and hair color. It is hard for me to read this and not see it as a modern form of eugenics.

Scott Rae: Well, I think that term, I think, is starting to be invoked more routinely-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... On this.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And I think just to be clear for our listeners, too, we've, we've talked about this with the other companies have come out with these similar tests, but this one has so many conditions that it screens for.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And our listeners, I think, need to know that most of these conditions are not direct genetic links. They're, they're what geneticists call predispositions.

Carmen Imes: Okay.

Scott Rae: Which all that does is increase the risk of-

Carmen Imes: But not that

Scott Rae: ... Developing these.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: But, but-

Carmen Imes: It doesn't guarantee it.

Scott Rae: Not, n- very few of these are a sure thing. Uh-

Carmen Imes: And I'm just thinking, Scott, if somebody would have given my parents that option or given their parents that option... Let's take the latter. Let's say that my grandmother was given the possibility of screening for the possible health conditions that my mom would have. She has spent much of her adult life with chronic health conditions. She's s- had, she had a traumatic brain injury. There were all sorts of things that came from that, but even before the brain injury, there was long-term chronic conditions that impacted her quality of life. There's no possible way that I would say i- she would've been better off not being born. She has been a wonderful mother, a wonderful friend, a wonderful grandmother, a follower of Jesus. She has persevered through suffering. She's had a rich life, and I just don't think we can look at a printout of all of the health conditions we might have someday and determine whether that life is worth living. That's not how it works.

Scott Rae: Yeah. That's, and well, that's not how it lor- works in a fallen world- ... Where, you know, we have, we have the stuff of real life-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Which includes disability.

Carmen Imes: Right.

Scott Rae: It includes illness.

Carmen Imes: Right.

Scott Rae: It includes suffering, you know, none of which are-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Good in and of themselves, but God uses those for good-

Carmen Imes: Yes

Scott Rae: ... To form us and shape us into who we are.

Carmen Imes: Yes.

Scott Rae: We had a, we had a, one of our grads was on two, three weeks ago, who was talking about disability. He was exposed to measles in the womb- ... And has severe disabilities. But he was very articulate in describing w- how that has shaped the person-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... That God has allowed him to become-

Carmen Imes: Yeah, yeah

Scott Rae: ... And how that shaped his character. And it would've be- it would've been tragic.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: I mean, he would've, he would've been a prime candidate-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... I think, for some of this screening, though he was exposed to this in the womb, which couldn't-

Carmen Imes: Right

Scott Rae: ... Have been screened for. But had he- had his mom known about all these dis- potential disabilities-

Carmen Imes: Right

Scott Rae: ... I think the odds would've been against him.

Carmen Imes: Right.

Scott Rae: But the, as you describe it applies to him, too. The richness of his life-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Has been so significant. And God has used those things to shape him into who he is. Now, that doesn't mean we don't cure disease and try to alleviate genetic abnormalities as best we can, but I think we are, we are-- in general, I think we are overreacting-

Carmen Imes: Yes

Scott Rae: ... To the, some of the risks-

Carmen Imes: Yes

Scott Rae: ... That are just, they're just part of, part of living in a fallen world.

Carmen Imes: Yes. And part of, I think, why we get stuck on this is that there's a lie out there in our culture that to be a fulfilled and satisfied and self-actualized person, we need to be happy all the time, and any kind of disease would then contradict that s- quest for happiness. We see happiness as the highest good, and that's not a biblical way of looking at the world. My dad was recently diagnosed with Lewy body dementia. It's been a really-

Scott Rae: What is, what is that?

Carmen Imes: Lewy body is sort of between Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

Scott Rae: I see.

Carmen Imes: So rather than deep memory loss, it's more of a loss of executive functioning, and then it, the progress- as the disease progresses, it comes with physical, disabilities and, like mobility issues like you would see with Parkinson's. So it's been a w- kind of a wild journey learning about it and figuring out what's going on. It, it often includes hallucinations, which was the- ... Presenting symptom that made us start looking into what was going on. When I look back at the past six months walking with my dad through this, I would say this has been some of the sweetest months of our relationship. We're, we're more connected. We're talking every day. I'm kind of his air traffic controller, helping figure out medical appointments and making decisions and navigating things that no longer make sense to him, and we're bonded in a beautiful way. If he'd been screened ahead of time to see that he had predisposition to this particular kind of dementia, somebody would've said, "Oh, we're gonna spare him this." But these have been some of the richest months, I think, of his life.

Scott Rae: ... Yeah, I think the question is, Carmen, who actually are we sparing?

Carmen Imes: Right. Right.

Scott Rae: Well, we're sparing the parents, and, if we're gonna do that, I think let's at least be honest about who we're sparing. It's not the child-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... In most cases.

Carmen Imes: And, and that's interesting because in this case, the disease didn't, didn't hit my dad until his mid-70s, so his mom isn't around anymore to have been-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Carmen Imes: ... Inconvenienced by it. But I'm just thinking of all of the people that I know with low IQ who are such a blessing to everyone they meet. You know, like-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Carmen Imes: ... If you're gonna screen for intelligence, you are screening out some of the world's most loving people.

Scott Rae: Well, yeah, and we have, we have a lot of interest in diversity, except for this one.

Carmen Imes: Yes. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: This is the one-

Carmen Imes: Isn't that interesting?

Scott Rae: This is the one we're intent on screening out.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And I just, you know, I think we, listeners need to be clear about this, too, that in case you didn't know, everybody has some undesirable genetic traits about you.

Carmen Imes: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Rae: None, none of us are genetically perfect.

Carmen Imes: No.

Scott Rae: In fact, I, the latest estimate I heard is, you know, most people have roughly, you know, 50 to 60- ... Genetic glitches- ... In their genome-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... That, you know, thankfully don't affect most people. But, you know, some do, but nobody's genetically perfect, and the search for the genetically perfect child-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... In my view, is a fool's errand.

Carmen Imes: It is.

Scott Rae: That takes us away from, ultimately, I think, recognizing that we are bringing, we are bringing fallen children into a fallen world, into the homes of fallen parents, who are, by the grace of God, are gonna do the best they can-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... To parent them and to love them and to bring them into maturity-

Carmen Imes: Yep

Scott Rae: ... And to, and to help by, you know, with the hand of the Holy Spirit, help develop their character.

Carmen Imes: Yeah. Amen to that.

Scott Rae: This I just... I wonder what this is gonna do to our, the way we view people who-- adults who have disabilities.

Carmen Imes: Right. Right.

Scott Rae: Because I think we've already had some, pro-choice advocates admit that, for example, when they see someone, a parent in the grocery store, you know, with a kid with Down syndrome, they sort of... They think to themselves-- they don't, thankfully, they don't say it out loud, but they think to themselves, "Don't you realize that you didn't have to have this child?"

Carmen Imes: Oh!

Scott Rae: And they-- and thankfully, they catch themselves with exactly the reaction you had.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: But I just, I wonder what this is-- what this will do to people who have, you know, sort of, I think, relatively minor things. I mean, I'm familiar with parents who have had... They've aborted their children because they were diagnosed in the womb with a cleft palate.

Carmen Imes: Wow.

Scott Rae: Even though, you know, that can easily be fixed surgically.

Carmen Imes: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Rae: So I think that it is-- you're right, I think, to raise the specter of eugenics.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: This is bringing, I think, designer children closer-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Not so much by who we engineer, but who we eliminate.

Carmen Imes: Right.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Carmen Imes: And it relates to what we just talked about with the chatbot romantic partners that are being design engineered to be a certain way. We, we are... We continue to feed this lie that we have to be a certain shape, size, personality to be good or to be right. There's a kind of, deep-rooted ableism that's behind all of this, and as you pointed out, so ironic in an age when tolerance and diversity are supposedly high values.

Scott Rae: Yeah, for everything but this.

Carmen Imes: Yes.

Scott Rae: Now, good stuff. Really good take on this. Let's go to, let's go to story number three. Carmen, you sent this to me.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: This was... This is a chilling story on the treatment of inmates in prisons-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... In some cities across the United States. This is a, an article from w- a organization called The Marshall Project, which specializes in journalism about criminal justice, and the article is c- is entitled "The Unbearable Darkness of Jail." And it's highlighting conditions in jails in three specific cities, Cleveland, Ohio, St. Louis, Missouri, and Jackson, Mississippi.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And a new inhumane condition was exposed that, frankly, I've never thought about before.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And that is the lack of sunlight-

Carmen Imes: Yep

Scott Rae: ... And fresh air. And they point out that many jails built in the last century often have very few windows, little room for open space and for natural light, and I... They s- they s- they gave pictures of some of the windows in the jails that are nothing but really narrow slits that bring, you know, maybe a sliver-

Carmen Imes: And some jails-

Scott Rae: ... Of natural light

Carmen Imes: ... With no windows at all.

Scott Rae: At all.

Carmen Imes: Like, it's, you're just looking at a blank concrete wall, and this is the outside of a place where people live.

Scott Rae: And the, and the notion that jails should provide sunlight, I think the article points out, often takes a backseat to other issues that they consider more pressing.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: But the impact, what they point out, can actually be quite dramatic. Here, one of the, one of the administrators puts it like this: "When there's lack of sunlight- ... And fresh air and recreation, almost unilaterally, you see more critical incidents occurring."

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: "Inmates who are idle or who are afraid take life-saving measures to presen- protect themselves, so they create weapons, and you see sicker inmates because of the stress."

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: Now, many state laws require access to sunlight and fresh air, but often are not implemented for a variety of reasons. Understaffing is often used as a, as a, explanation for that, and it really, it, in many cases, would require build, rebuilding prison systems in some states at quite high cost.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: One particular prison in Mississippi described the majority of the jail's windows were completely covered- ... Allowing no sunlight, and there were, there... And even the light fixtures were often not working. They said in some, in some cases, cells were dark for 24 hours a day.... All right, now, Carmen, well, I know you've, you've, you reacted to this initially when you sent this article to me about what a violation of the image of God-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... That this was in these inmates.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: So tell us a little bit more about that, and sort of spell out your take on this.

Carmen Imes: Yeah, I think it's really important as Christians to recognize that every human being is the image of God, and that means that every human has the right to be treated with dignity. And I don't think that criminal behavior-

Scott Rae: Regardless of the crimes that they've committed.

Carmen Imes: Right. Regardless of crime, they ought to be treated with fairness and dignity. Now, I'm not saying that jails should become some kind of all-inclusive resort, you know, where we've, we've got recliners and big-screen TVs and, you know, all-you-can-eat bonbons. [chuckles] That's not what I would- [chuckles]

Scott Rae: [chuckles]

Carmen Imes: ... Would advocate for. However, sunlight seems to me to be a fundamental human need, so that it's actually, as you read, it's counterproductive for this, for the process of even keeping people in the building safe to not have sunlight and fresh air. S- the article says that sunlight deprivation causes high blood pressure, osteoporosis, increased risk of diabetes, depression, and sleep disorders. It's... In some cases, the inmates can't even tell what time of day it is because they can't see outside. They can only tell from what meals are being brought to them what time of day it is. And to me, even if you're having a conversation with someone who doesn't believe inmates are the image of God and should be treated with dignity, that's just bad finance sense to create conditions that are going to exacerbate medical problems that are then going to have to be paid for by the state. I think, I mean, I believe in the dignity of all people, but if, as we're having conversations with others about prison reform, it seems to me it makes good financial sense to have bigger windows, to have access to the outside. Some of these inmates go years without any outdoor exercise or fresh air. They develop breathing problems because the air is recycled through their entire building, and it's, it's not refreshed. How is this gonna be effective at restoring criminals to a healthy role in society upon their release?

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think one of the inmates cited in this, after he got out, he had been, he had been in this prison that we just described.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: When he got out, and he s- and he experienced sunlight and fresh air for the first time in several years, vowed to himself, "I am never going back to prison."

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Just because of what he experienced with the-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Just the refreshing nature of sunlight-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... And fresh air.

Carmen Imes: I just think i- for us to contribute to the downward spiral of depression and desperation of inmates, by denying them their, the basic human needs of light and air, I think is just shooting ourselves in the foot.

Scott Rae: Yeah, and I, you know, and I'm- we're not prison administrators.

Carmen Imes: No.

Scott Rae: You know, we don't, we don't wrestle with understaffing. You know, we know-

Carmen Imes: Right

Scott Rae: ... Those things are real.

Carmen Imes: Right.

Scott Rae: And the cost that it would take to basically redo many of these prison systems, I think that's-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... That's real, too.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And so this, it, I think it pre- it presents a bit of a public policy dilemma-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Because I think it, I think it is essential, I think, and as you pointed out, it makes good financial sense.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: I know that some prisons do not re- do not have recreation areas. They don't have outside places for inmates to gather.

Carmen Imes: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Rae: And because it's- because they're understaffed, they can't... They feel like they can't, they just can't make those safe.

Carmen Imes: Right.

Scott Rae: On the other hand, depriving inmates of that, I think cr- it creates some of the safety problems-

Carmen Imes: Right

Scott Rae: ... That you've pointed out, so-

Carmen Imes: That then lead to understaffing because of the high stress level of working in a jail-

Scott Rae: Yes

Carmen Imes: ... Where people, where the inmates are so restless and so, unhappy. Yeah, my aunt worked in a, in the prison system as a nurse for many years, and it was an extremely difficult job. And it would be exacerbated if inmates don't have access to having their basic needs met.

Scott Rae: Yeah, my sister is close friends with a gentleman who works in the Mich- one of the Michigan, prison systems.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And she talks about the stress that he goes under-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Is just enormous.

Carmen Imes: It is enormous.

Scott Rae: And so the turnover, I think, is understandable.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: But this seems to be a, you know, a problem that at least is now on the radar screen.

Carmen Imes: Yes.

Scott Rae: And hopefully, in other systems around the country, will be considered part of prison reform.

Carmen Imes: Yeah. I'm glad we're talking about it because it's often Christians who are calling for, more law and order, and they want more criminals being taken off the streets. Then we need to also follow up and say, "As a Christian, it's important to me that those who are incarcerated are treated fairly and with dignity," and so let's be equally loud about that as we are about arresting criminals.

Scott Rae: No, that's, that's, that's a great point, and I think a helpful balance, too. I think a, you know, a correct intuition about law and order, but also, a, I think a correct intuition about inmates also bearing the image of God-

Carmen Imes: Right

Scott Rae: ... And having intrinsic value, so good stuff. All right, C- you sent me both of these, a couple of very brief notices, and sort of brief obituaries.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: One is the death of a woman, Jennifer Lyall, a vice president of Lifeway Resources, who was one of the first women to speak out against sexual abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention at the hands of one of her seminary professors. She began to speak out in 2018. Initially, the press sort of downplayed the abuse, later apologized for minimizing it, but acknowledged that her reputation had been tarnished in the process. She passed away this week from a series of strokes, I think unrelated to the abuse that she suffered, at the much too early age of 47. And then, Walter Brueggemann, well, another one you sent to me, Carmen. I think no... I know you have n- a number of his books in your library, a well-known Old Testament scholar.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Say, not exactly, not exactly evangelical-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... I think, in his theological convictions, but a passionate advocate for the poor and the marginalized, as well as a very insightful scholar. And I think, I think it's fair to say that his life and passion represented the spirit of the Old Testament prophets well-

Carmen Imes: Yes, yes

Scott Rae: ... Even though we would disagree with-... You know, several matters of-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: Old Testament interpretation and theology.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: So your take briefly on both of those.

Carmen Imes: Yeah, I think Jen Lyle's death is so tragic, and although it's not directly linked to the abuse that she suffered, she spoke many times of how crushing the process has been of coming forward as a victim, of being subjected to so much harassment after she came forward. And so I think it could be argued that her strokes were her body giving up, under so much duress. It- the misreporting about her was done by Baptist Press, and that's what led to the accusations that Lyle was a temptress and should be fired from Lifeway. She did eventually lose her job, but her accusations were credible, and, proceedings were ongoing about that. And I... The SBC is meeting right now, this week as we record this, and, what concerns me is that the convention seems so concerned about the cost of addressing abuse, and there's been some victim blaming. Like, "If these women hadn't come forward and said what they said, we wouldn't be in so much debt, or this wouldn't be costing us so much." And I think it's worth just saying that the cost is 100% on the men who did the abusing and on those who covered up the abuse. So I'm glad we're mentioning her name on this episode. She was a courageous woman, brilliant. She worked for a while with our very own Ed Stetzer, when he was at Lifeway, and so he remembers fondly working with her. The, the death of Walter Brueggemann is a huge blow to Old Testament studies. Every evangelical s- Old Testament scholar I know has benefited from his work. I've got a whole stack of books next to me. He's, he's best known for his book, The Prophetic Imagination, which I would recommend just even as devotional reading. It's... He, he has a way of showing us the power of the Old Testament prophets and their courage in addressing the problems of their generation. Another of my favorites is his book, From Whom No Secrets Are Hid: Introducing the Psalms. He talks about the Psalms as, orientation, disorientation, and reorientation, to the Lord. I plan to benefit from his work for many years to come, and I'm th- I'm thankful for his devotion to making the scriptures available, accessible, and for helping people see again their relevance for life today.

Scott Rae: Great. Thank you. I know that one, that one touched you maybe differently than it would a lot of our listeners-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Who may not be familiar with him-

Carmen Imes: Yeah

Scott Rae: And his work. All right, you ready to answer some questions?

Carmen Imes: Sure.

Scott Rae: Got some great questions, and some of the, some of these I'm really... I'm glad that you're here this week for some of these questions. All right, here's the first one: "Sometimes it seems like a blessing to have so many Bible translations. Comparing translations can help doing Bible study, for instance. At other times, the difference between translations can be confusing. A verse in the NASB or ESV sometimes sounds nothing like a verse in the New Living or The Message. So I'd like to know, what is your preferred Bible translation, and why?" Okay, go for it.

Carmen Imes: All right.

Scott Rae: Go for it.

Carmen Imes: All right, so, the version that I teach out of in class is the NIV. I like it for many reasons, but it does a good job, I think, of communicating in language that makes sense to students today. But for any cases where I'm wondering, "Why is this translation different from that translation?" If I don't have Greek and Hebrew right there at my fingertips to look it up myself, or for those who don't know Greek and Hebrew, I recommend the New English Translation, the NET Bible. It's available online with all of its study notes, and they have translators' notes that will often-

Scott Rae: Nice

Carmen Imes: ... Explain why they're making the choice they're making about how to translate something. So while I don't always agree with the choice they made, I often do, and they usually explain why, you know, why such a difference between two different versions. So that's the NET Bible.

Scott Rae: Great.

Carmen Imes: Great.

Scott Rae: I, my... You know, my preference is the NIV as well. I've been using it for years and years.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: I find it to be very clear- ... Very true to the original text.

Carmen Imes: The NIV committee meets every summer, the Committee on Bible Translation, to work through possible issues wh- areas where it could be improved, where the English language has changed, or there's now more scholarship available. So I appreciate the way that they are keeping on top of the evolution of the English language and making sure that we're still communicating effectively.

Scott Rae: All right, here's the second one: "I've been struggling with questions over God's sovereignty." Well, join the club.

Carmen Imes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: "Uh, I believe God is sovereign, but I question what we mean by that. Some use God's sovereignty as an excuse. We can't explain something, especially issues of suffering and evil, so we use God's sovereignty as a crutch. Other times, God's sovereignty is contrasted with free will. It feels like the church holds that whatever happened must have been part of God's will, thus explaining away the things we don't understand. Personally, I find it hard to believe that God being sovereign means he is orchestrating every small detail of my life. In the end, my questions are, one, how do you define sovereignty? Two, what is the purview of the will of God? Is it over the minutiae of life? And three, how can the church better communicate the truth of God's sovereignty and His will for our lives?" We may not have time, Carmen, for all three of those- ... But, give me your take on the answer to these questions.

Carmen Imes: Yeah, so, m- the shorthand way of answering it is to say that I'm a Molinist- ... Which is s- s- a way of saying that I believe that-

Scott Rae: Join the club.

Carmen Imes: [chuckles] I believe that God is sovereign, that He's able to do whatever He wants to do, but that He has given us free will, and so He-... He's working within the freedom that he's given us. So Molinism talks about middle knowledge, which is that the, this idea that God knows what we're likely to choose of our own free will, and then he's able to work with those choices to bend them towards the ends that he has in mind. So he's not surprised by anything that's happening, but he's not micromanaging everything that we do.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think, now, to be clear, I think there are some Calvinists who would take a quite different view of that.

Carmen Imes: Yes, yes.

Scott Rae: But I think Molinism, I think, makes a lot of sense biblically and theologically. I would suggest that there are two different types of the sovereignty of God, the decreed will of God, which are the things that he directly decrees and causes, and the permissive will of God- ... Which are things that he permits. But he is working in all the details of our life for our good and for his glory. It doesn't say all things are good. It says, "All things work together-

Carmen Imes: Yes

Scott Rae: ... For good." And that's a, that's an important distinction. And this side of eternity, you know, we just, we just don't know how all the, all the puzzle pieces of our lives fit together. We'll see that when we're on the other side of eternity. And I, and I don't believe... God does not have preferences over all the details of our life. I don't think God has preferences about what you eat for lunch-

Carmen Imes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: ... Or, you know, what you know, what you do for your, you know, off-work hours, as long as it is corresponding with his Word.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: God's pref- I think his strongest preferences have to do with our moral lives, our character, and I would suggest most of what constitutes the will of God, not all of it, but the vast majority of it, constitutes what's directly taught in the Scriptures.

Carmen Imes: Yeah. Yeah, I think he calls us to bear his name well, and that is something we can do no matter what career path we're in, no matter what- where we choose to have lunch. [chuckles] there's this broader picture of wanting to live in concert with his character and his will.

Scott Rae: Hopefully, that helps answer the question without having to have a full semester course on-

Carmen Imes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: ... The sovereignty and providence of God.

Carmen Imes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: All right, here's a final one, Carmen: How should we think biblically about paying taxes, specifically in light of the role of taxation in America's founding? From Jesus' comment, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's," it appears he had no qualms about citizens paying taxes, even unfair and oppressive ones, as Rome's were. Not to reduce the American Revolution to merely a matter of taxes, but it is- it's fair to say that taxation was a component of the Founding Fathers' decision to revolt. How can Christians reconcile the seeming disconnect between Jesus' teaching on taxes and the actions of the Founding Fathers?

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think this is such a fascinating question. I hadn't thought about it before. I don't feel any particular need to defend the Founding Fathers and the decisions that they made as being biblical, in every case. I don't think they always were biblical. But I don't think that when Jesus said, "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's," he was making a statement about the necessity of paying taxes, whatever they are, wherever you live, for the rest of human history. He is addressing a particular situation in which he's being baited by the Jewish religious leaders to try to say something against Rome, and his... He's basically saying, "I don't really care about money. Caesar can have the money." he- this is not a statement about Christian involvement in the political process, you know-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Carmen Imes: ... In every period going forward.

Scott Rae: Yeah, that's, that's really helpful, I think, to, you know, both those things about the intentions of the Founders.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: I think that Christianity was part of the air that they were breathing, but that doesn't mean that everything they did was rooted-

Carmen Imes: No

Scott Rae: ... In some, in some passage of Scripture.

Carmen Imes: No.

Scott Rae: I think if the Founders had been against taxation in principle, they would have changed it.

Carmen Imes: Right. Right, and they-

Scott Rae: When they got their independence.

Carmen Imes: What they're against is taxation without representation, which I think is a fair, a fair critique-

Scott Rae: Yes

Carmen Imes: ... Of the way that the British government was operating the colonies.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think they object... It seems to me, I'm not, I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to me they object, the Founders objected to taxation as a means of keeping them economically crippled- ... And a means of keeping the British in power in the, in the colonies.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: I think, to think more biblically about this, I would say that taxation is part of our obligation to the well-being of our communities-

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... And I think a form of loving our neighbors.

Carmen Imes: Yes. Yes.

Scott Rae: Now, in particular, I'll give an ex- an example of this. You know, my wife and I, we've been empty nesters for some time. We've had kids out of... Our kids haven't been in public schools for probably 15 years.

Carmen Imes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Yet, we still pay our property taxes faithfully- ... Part- and partly because it's, it's in our community's best interest to have healthy, functioning public schools who do their job well in educating students.

Carmen Imes: Yes.

Scott Rae: And, and even if they're not educating our particular students, they did in the past. But this is a form, I think, of loving my next-door neighbor-

Carmen Imes: Right

Scott Rae: ... Who's got three of her, three of her kids that are still in high school. So-

Carmen Imes: Yeah, and I think we can add to that now, that you and I both pay taxes, but we're not in jail.

Scott Rae: Right.

Carmen Imes: And our taxes pay for local jails, and those jails should have-

Scott Rae: And

Carmen Imes: ... Sunlight and access to fresh water-

Scott Rae: Yes

Carmen Imes: ... Right?

Scott Rae: That-

Carmen Imes: So, so as taxpayers, we have the opportunity, in this particular, political moment, to weigh in on how those taxes are spent and to use our voices to advocate for the needs of our neighbors.

Scott Rae: Yeah, and that doesn't mean that you have to be in support of everything that our tax dollars are going toward, which I'm not.

Carmen Imes: That's right.

Scott Rae: Both at the state and the federal level. So-

Carmen Imes: That's helpful.

Scott Rae: Anyway, hopefully, that answers the question. And Carmen, this has been so fun-

Carmen Imes: It has

Scott Rae: ... Having you with us. I so appreciate the conversation. I'm sure our listeners have enjoyed it, too, and, we will look forward to having you guest host again for us. This was, this was really fun, and so appreciate your insights today.

Carmen Imes: All right. Thanks for having me, Scott.

Scott Rae: You bet. This has been an episode of the Weekly Cultural Update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online, including our Master's in Christian Apologetics, programs from our Institute for Spiritual Formation, of course, Master's degrees in Old Testament, New Testament, Systematic Theology, Christian Ministry, and even Marriage and Family Therapy. There's been... There's probably one or two more that I think [chuckles] I might be missing. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more about any of those programs. If you wanna submit comments to us, ask questions, please keep your questions coming. They are great questions, and we love interacting with them. Or to make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please give us a rating on your podcast app, and feel free to share it with a friend, and join us on Tuesday for our regular episode. Thanks so much for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]