Topics this week:

    Listener Questions:

    • Further questions concerning the life of MLK jr.
    • How should someone approach talking with parents in the midst of deconstruction?
    • Is there continuity of life between now and the new heavens and new earth?



    Episode Transcript

    Scott Rae: [upbeat music] Embracing Christian faith becomes more popular in women's basketball. Richard Dawkins asks: Who is a Christian? And the UK Supreme Court issues a landmark ruling on gender, and France puts new laws into effect on sperm and egg donors being anonymous. These are the stories we'll cover today, and we'll take some of your, as always, excellent questions. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and sitting in for Sean, who's on the road today, is my Talbot colleague, Dr. Erik Thoennes. This is a Think Biblically weekly cultural update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Erik, welcome. Really glad to have you join us again this time.

    Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott. It's good to be back.

    Scott Rae: Now, on this Good Friday, some encouraging news from the world of women's basketball. This is a story you sent me about Christian faith becoming more popular and more outspoken in women's basketball, and this is according to the first pick in this week's WNBA draft, the MVP of the, of the Women's Final Four, national champion UConn's Paige Bueckers. She put it like this: she said, "I think people are more outward in their faith and more comfortable talking about it," and maintained that, "The more you see it popularized, the more comfortable everybody becomes with it. But I definitely think it's growing in terms of being outspoken about their faith." Now, Erik, we've talked about other sports figures, and their faith in the past. We've actually talked about athletes giving credit to God when they win, not to mention what that says about the players for the losing team. [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: But what struck you about this story in particular in women's basketball?

    Erik Thoennes: Well, I'm working really hard to be objective here-

    Scott Rae: I... [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: -because I'm from Connecticut, and the UConn women's basketball team just is legendary there. And Paige is one of possibly the best player they've ever had. They've won 12 national championship, and Geno Auriemma started with a program that was nothing, and he's been doing it for 40 years, and no one's even close to him in all the records he holds. He's been able to create a subculture on that team that is unique, I would say. I, and I'm not just throwing that word around. With NIL stuff and athletes getting paid a lot of money now and the transfer portal, players want to play for him so adamantly that they wanna go there knowing it's gonna be incredibly tough. So he's created a subculture, [lips smack] and through the years, just been dominant. But this year's team was something special. They always are, but Paige Bueckers was the National Player of the Year when she was a freshman, and they're saying she's the most efficient college basketball player of all time, men or women. And this: she's the first and only ever to shoot 50% from the field, 40% from three, and 90% from the line. So... And she's, she has assists and rebounds, so she is just an exceptional basketball player. But she's humble, and she loves her teammates, and she's incredibly unselfish. It's one of Geno's biggest problems he's had with her through the years, is he wants her to shoot more.

    Scott Rae: [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: But her teammates love her and love playing with her, and her Christian faith at the core of that has been incredibly significant. Here's a, here's a young lady who, since she was a, in elementary school, people saw was an exceptional player, and to keep your head about you with that kind of acclaim from your earliest days is incredibly hard. She comes from a broken family. Her family situation was not great, but through the years, she has had God at the core of things. And what she says over and over again, "I do it all by God's power for God's purposes." And she just said a couple of weeks ago, "This team wins because we love each other, and this team wins on the power of friendship." And one of the, one of the examples of that kind of character, that doesn't always lead to wins, but a lot of times it does, because when you love each other, you tend to work really well together. [chuckles] And I was actually thinking of Talbot-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... And being on the faculty here and part of what you've helped create here, Scott. I was, as I was thinking about this conversation, I was thinking about what it's like to be on our faculty and the fact that we really like and enjoy and love each other and are cheering each other on. It, it, the lack of competitiveness among our team here is amazing. But she has a freshman on her team who's a center, and she's from Egypt, and she's Muslim. And Ramadan fell during March Madness, which meant-

    Scott Rae: That's bad timing. [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: Yes, her teammate c- was fasting during all daylight hours during March Madness. And so Paige, every day, would get up and make her teammate breakfast before the sun came up.

    Scott Rae: Just before sunrise.

    Erik Thoennes: So her-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... Teammate would have a good meal. Now, you could say, well, she wants her 6'4" center to be, have energy, but it's because she loves her.

    Scott Rae: Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: She cares about her, and she wants her to be at her best. And so that sort of thing from the National Player of the Year, the number one draft pick, [lips smack] to get up and make her friend breakfast, I was thinking of Jesus, who, after His resurrection, sees His friends out fishing early in the morning, and He makes them breakfast.

    Scott Rae: That's a great point.

    Erik Thoennes: This beautiful, simple way of serving that's very Christ-like. We, we tend to think of these huge things that are like Jesus. Well, making your friends breakfast after they've been working all night fishing is a beautiful, simple act that I doubt Paige has even made that connection in the way she was serving [chuckles] her teammate. But I've just loved seeing the way Christian character translates into a subculture on a team that leads to exceptional performance. It's not always that way, and we can't expect it to be that way, but a lot of times, even corporations know if your employees love each other, if they care for each other, if they have each other's backs like we do at [chuckles] Talbot, then you're going to get what we would call success more on a superficial level. But the beauty is, that's not what's ultimately important to them.... And one last thing about this. One of the things about this year's team is they've had injuries. So Paige Bueckers is the National Player of the Year as a freshman. She blows out her knee the next year, has to miss the entire sophomore year. She hurts it again later on. Her best friend, Azzi Fudd, comes in as the number one recruit, and she blows her knee out as a freshman. And so they've gone through so many difficult things together that it's put things in perspective, like suffering does, that it's just led to a great story.

    Scott Rae: Well, and I think the team chemistry you talk about is the real thing, 'cause I heard a story not long ago how those, the three top players on their team had sort of adopted this girl who was suffering from a terminal illness-

    Erik Thoennes: Yes

    Scott Rae: ... And had just made her sort of part of the team. She'd travel with the team, and then I think when she passed away not, like a year ago-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... But the team still sort of plays for her and in her memory.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: Just, you know, you know, how many, how many teams do that?

    Erik Thoennes: That's a beautiful story. I was in tears reading that article on ESPN about this little girl that was a big fan, and the, and the players, again, her mom- this girl's mom said when the players came over, they weren't these celebrities. They were her daughter's friends.

    Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.

    Erik Thoennes: And the way they loved her and cared for her- ... And wore bracelets she made for them, it's just a beautiful story.

    Scott Rae: Now, we've also talked a bit about when people who have high visibility proclaim their faith. Sometimes what goes on in their life makes you wanna scratch your head a bit about their cl- their claims of faith. So, and I think s- I think it's probably fair to say that, some of them are involved in things that God doesn't want any part of.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: So how do we bal- I don't think that's the... Certainly not the case here.

    Erik Thoennes: No.

    Scott Rae: But in general, I think, you know, I'd, I'd wanna be careful that we don't, I guess, put too much onto the proclamation of faith, while at the same time realizing that we, you know, there are some things in their lives, like is true for all of us-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... At some one point or another, that make us scratch our head a bit.

    Erik Thoennes: Right. So no one's looking for perfection in any Christian who's proclaiming Christ, but at the very least, we're looking for repentance when it's needed. [chuckles] So, so i- you can say, "Well, I'm a Christian," but it doesn't translate into actually obeying Jesus. Well, then are you a Christian? Because Jesus said, "If you love me, you'll obey my commandments." And so we don't just make the Christian faith platitudes, and we don't just make it things that we use to get through our injury or things like that. That, that then becomes superstition and a rabbit's foot.

    Scott Rae: It's a bit, it's a bit utilitarian.

    Erik Thoennes: Yes, and Jesus condemns that. So, so we don't want a bifurcation, we don't want a separation of actually living these things out in the daily, and then claiming it in other ways. And, and we can all have that sort of hypocritical, instinct, but, you know, so we want integrity, but at the very least, do you recognize what the Bible says Christians are called to as true disciples, and are you seeking the, to live that out, albeit imperfectly, but still consistently and repenting when needed?

    Scott Rae: Yeah, I think that's, that's, I think, a helpful take on that, 'cause we're all, you know... We're all victims of the Fall. Coming to faith doesn't get us out from under the sun.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: You know, living this side of eternity, still being subject to the effects of the general entrance of sin.

    Erik Thoennes: And I do think in the case of well-known people and accomplished people, like we're talking about, a lot of times they've been getting a pass their whole lives on all sorts of things, academic expectations and requirements, and the people just look the other way because they're so good at something that other people are benefiting from, that sometimes they're just really poorly discipled, and no one's ever said to them, "You know, you really probably shouldn't be living with your girlfriend if you're gonna go around talking about Jesus." [chuckles] You know, and that's... I say that that way un- intentionally. Yeah, not probably, you shouldn't. And, and so a consistency in the Christian life is what we should call people to, but sometimes I can't even fault the person, because maybe they haven't had a godly mentor in their lives to even call these things out for them, because people give them a pass, and so you're not loving people if that's how you treat them.

    Scott Rae: Yeah, and I think in some cases, it's, it's, it's likely the case that they come to faith out of lots of brokenness, and so they're not, you know, they're not- they're just not starting at the same place.

    Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.

    Scott Rae: And especially if they, if they've not had somebody who can come alongside them as a mentor and actually show them how, you know, how you do this.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: Because it's not, it's not, you know... [chuckles] The kinds of things that the gospel demands are not really intuitive for people.

    Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Right. Counterintuitive.

    Scott Rae: They're actually quite counterintuitive.

    Erik Thoennes: Yes, yes.

    Scott Rae: Um-

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: All right. That's, that's great. That's just seem very encouraging stuff.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah, and last thing I would say is I think the local church, where that discipleship takes place, is the key to that... I was just reading about Casting Crowns, that really successful Christian band, and at the beginning of their career, they made a commitment to be home, and in church, and teaching Sunday school for little kids-

    Scott Rae: That's so good, yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... And just being grounded in that way so they didn't get full of themselves and disconnected from the church-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... And that kind of discipleship.

    Scott Rae: All right, here's story number two, also appropriate, I think, on this Good Friday. Richard Dawkins is asking some [chuckles] really interesting questions, and Erik, I admit, I don't read many people's Substacks very often, but Richard Dawkins has a lot of prof- [chuckles] really provocative and interesting things to say, and this week is no exception. 'Cause he's asking that question, "Who is a Christian?" And he posits that maybe he's one, too. Now, I think that was probably a tease as a, as the headline. But he's specifically addressing the claims of Christian faith of a Somali-born Dutch and US immigrant, Ayaan Hirsi Ali.... Who's been very publicly critical of her Muslim upbringing. She's written several books about the treatment of women in Islam, and about the impact of Muslim immigration into Eu- into Europe. She served in the Dutch parliament. She's now living in the United States, and claims to have had a genuine conversion to Christianity. Dawkins is pretty skeptical about that. He ca- in fact, he calls her a political Christian, which means that she supports Christianity because it's a better alternative for society than others, like Islam and secularism, and others. Now, Dawkins, I think, gets some things right. He understands the central claims of Christianity, although maybe not quite in the same way we would, but he says- he calls, he calls the real thing believing Christians, and calls himself a cultural Christian. And he admits that he's not the real thing.

    Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

    Scott Rae: But he, here's, here's what he says the real thing is: "Believing Christians believe that there's a supernatural creator at the base of the universe called God, a first-century Jew called Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus' mother was a virgin when she gave birth to him, that Jesus came alive again three days after he died, that we have an immortal soul that survives our bodily death, and that God listens to our prayers." And he fully admits he doesn't believe those. He has serious doubts that Ayaan Hirsi Ali believes those things. But, this is another one you sent to me. I'm curious, sort of, what got your attention on this one?

    Erik Thoennes: Well, I'm fascinated by what seems to be an increasing embracing of this idea of cultural Christianity. And I have a neighbor, he... I love the guy, and he's not a Christian. He w- he doesn't claim to be a Christian, but he loves Christians. And he'll come over to my house, and he'll say, "Hey, I'm so thankful for you guys."

    Scott Rae: That's great. [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: He'll say, "You know, you're holding this whole society together. If it weren't for you, everything would be spinning out of control, but keep up the good work, man." And he's, he's aware-

    Scott Rae: But I want no part of it.

    Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right. Well, he doesn't personally want it, but he's really thankful for the infrastructure-

    Scott Rae: Yes

    Erik Thoennes: ... We provide for society, morally and otherwise. And so it's just fascinating that you're able... Someone can recognize the really positive effects of the Christian faith, and think you can disconnect that from the tree, right? So, [chuckles] so you like-

    Scott Rae: Not, not for long

    Erik Thoennes: ... You like sitting on the limb, but-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... You don't realize the thing won't- the limb doesn't exist without the tree. And so I... But, but I'm really torn on this, 'cause I love the fact that people recognize the positive effects of Christianity, especially, I think, I think with Dawkins, he's seeing what's happening, say, with Islam becoming far more influential in some European countries, in the United States, and he prefers Christianity very adamantly. And I must say, I really appreciate guys like Dawkins, who I don't think are saying things p- just to be political or say the right thing or get clicks.

    Scott Rae: It's not really in his nature-

    Erik Thoennes: No

    Scott Rae: ... I don't think.

    Erik Thoennes: Well, a lot of these guys, that are opposed to the Christian faith, they're honest, whether it's a Bill Maher or Christopher Hitchens was somebody who-

    Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

    Erik Thoennes: ... He did not care about saying things that were gonna be offensive to people, Christians or otherwise. And so one of the best things I've ever heard from an apologetic standpoint was when a Unitarian minister interviewed Christopher Hitchens, and he called her out on not being a real Christian.

    Scott Rae: Huh.

    Erik Thoennes: And she was saying-

    Scott Rae: Interesting

    Erik Thoennes: ... "I'm a Christian. If you could just embrace my Christianity, you don't have to embrace that fundamentalism." And he basically broke out the Lewis Lord, Liar, Lunatic argument-

    Scott Rae: Yeah, yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... And said, "What do you believe? The only thing I can figure out you believe, ma'am, is that you don't believe in the Trinity. What do you believe in?" And he said, "Do you believe in the resurrection? Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? Do you believe he died on the cross for our sins?" And she was rejecting that-

    Scott Rae: [laughing]

    Erik Thoennes: ... And he said, "You're not a Christian."

    Scott Rae: [laughing]

    Erik Thoennes: He was just calling her out on this-

    Scott Rae: Oh, wow

    Erik Thoennes: ... Like a great Christian apologist would.

    Scott Rae: Yes. Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: Because he wants something to argue with, right? And he knows if you just fake it, he's not gonna be able to have a good argument with you. [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: Right.

    Erik Thoennes: And so I appreciate these categories he gives, but I think it's... I'm, I'm actually amazed he can be so naive or whatever it is, to realize that you can't sing Christmas carols. He says, "I like singing Christmas carols." He likes the moral effects in some ways, but he wants to be able to disconnect it from Christian doctrine, including our belief where human dignity comes from. I mean, he says that-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... It's immoral to not abort babies you know to have Down syndrome. So, so he likes some things about Christianity and Christian ethics, but completely rejects other ones.

    Scott Rae: Yeah, I think that's what, that's what Niebuz described as a cut flower civilization.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah, that's good.

    Scott Rae: It's k- cut off from, cut off from its roots. How, how much duration does that actually have?

    Erik Thoennes: Speaking of another guy who's completely opposed to Christianity, but pretty honest-

    Scott Rae: Yes

    Erik Thoennes: ... And logically consistent. [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: Yeah. Yeah, frighteningly so-

    Erik Thoennes: Yes [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: ... Actually. Yeah, you know, Erik, I heard Ayaan Hirsi Ali speak in Orange County about six weeks ago, and she gave a very powerful testimony of her faith. And I don't think she's quite in the same place that Dawkins- ... Is describing her as. Now, I d- I do think she's, she's very strong on the political overtones of Christianity, which is not really surprising with her being raised in a Muslim faith-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... Which is all, I mean, this is all-encompassing theocracy. And I think she's familiar with the idea that religious beliefs have social and some political implications, you know, rightly, in my view. Now, I'd say she sees probably more direct political implications than you and I might be comfortable with. But I would say that's a difference not in the genuineness of her faith, but in what genuine faith actually entails in the political arena. So I think she's really comfortable with the idea that Christianity is not just a, not just an individual thing, it's not just a privatized faith, but it does have implications for how we live out our lives in the broader world, and how, and how we structure those relationships, and how those, how those things come about.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: Which I think I think she's right about that. Now, it's a... She's probably-... She goes, she goes a little farther on some of these things than I'd be happy with. But I didn't have any reason to doubt the genuineness of her faith, 'cause that's, I mean, that's a, that is a confession of faith that's sort of, you know, right out of our theology classes.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah. I'm, I'm so impressed by what God's obviously doing in her life. She, she wasn't just out of a Muslim context, she was an atheist, an outspoken atheist-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ...

    Scott Rae: And understandably so-

    Erik Thoennes: Yes

    Scott Rae: ... Reacting to that.

    Erik Thoennes: Yes, and she comes out of an experience where she realizes the desperate need for politics influenced by righteous thinking. I mean, there should be laws against genital mutilation, which she experienced in her context, and so you can imagine how deeply these things go in her life, because this is not just theory for her.

    Scott Rae: Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: This is living life affected by a way of thinking religiously that affects politics and affects ethics in ways that are devastating.

    Scott Rae: Well, and I think in her, in her case, the law is the only answer-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... To it-

    Erik Thoennes: That's right

    Scott Rae: ... Because morality won't do it.

    Erik Thoennes: Right. It's like, it's, it's like Martin Luther King said, he said, "I, laws can't keep... Can't get you to love me, but they can keep you from lynching me."

    Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.

    Erik Thoennes: And so, [chuckles] so it's not theory, and so I appreciate that. I am concerned about this whole idea of cultural Christianity and, a political Christianity if it's not grounded in the Christian truth. Like, every year we fight, you know, to say Merry Christmas and to have creches in public places. I'm always so conflicted about that, because if you just reduce all of these Christian symbols to just cultural things, they lose their power and their effectiveness, and the Gospel isn't the Gospel anymore. It's just a nice thing we've always known since Charlie Brown's been talking about it.

    Scott Rae: [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: By the way, Charlie Brown gets to the Gospel.

    Scott Rae: Yes, he does.

    Erik Thoennes: [laughing] So that's not some cultural version. But, but I am encouraged... I remember hearing and learning from some of our philosophers about the importance of a plausibility structure that makes the Christian faith and the Christian Gospel make sense to people because there are these Christian ideas that people appreciate. And, and I want to-

    Scott Rae: Part, part of the air we breathe.

    Erik Thoennes: That's right. I want to appreciate that, and at the same time not lose the radical nature of Christian faith and Christian discipleship. I don't want to get some inculturated version of it that loses the transformative power of becoming new creatures in Christ by faith in Christ alone, those edges that Hitchens would be appalled by and Dawkins would be appalled by, but are nevertheless an essential part of our Christian faith.

    Scott Rae: Well, and it is... You know, those ideas, too, were incredibly countercultural in the first century.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: Things like human dignity, the notion of freedom, the notion of consent-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... You know, for sexual behavior. That's just for starters. Those have become part of the air we breathe today, and rightly so. But I think it show- it shows the strength of those ideas, and I think there's, there's a place, I think, for recognizing the place of God's common grace among, on us as a culture, that we've been able to enjoy the spillover of those ideas, you know, while people have increasingly, I think, abandoned some of the biblical and theological foundations for that.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: But I understand the feeling conflicted about that m- I think, makes sense, because I would love for, you know, for Dawkins to, you know, go a little bit further. And I think some of the folks that we entertain debates with, who are- who see the Gospel for what it is, it's not that they don't understand it's that they're just- they're not willing to welcome it into their lives. And I think it's... I mean, Christian faith will always be countercultural in different ways, but I think sometimes we under- we understate how incredibly counterintuitive and countercultural it was in the first century when the early church made such inroads into culture simply by being consistent with the way they lived out their faith.

    Erik Thoennes: And I th- I think it would be helpful if we, as Christians, helped folks see how Christian fundamental beliefs they have are, but that they have a disconnect between even their worldview. I have someone very close to me in my life who's a committed Darwinist, a committed evolutionist, someone who thinks the Christian faith is appalling- ... But has Christian ethics driving so much of the way he runs his business, lives his life. And I say all the time to him, [chuckles] "You're such a hypocrite."

    Scott Rae: [laughing]

    Erik Thoennes: Right? "You, you claim to be living by survival of the fittest, but you're helping weak and poor people all the time."

    Scott Rae: Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: "You're diluting the gene pool here with all of these weak people you're helping out all the time. [chuckles] And come on, be consistent. You live like a Christian, but you say you're not. And so, [chuckles] so where are you getting that? Where does it come from?" Is a good question I think we need to ask. Well, why shouldn't I be racist? Why shouldn't I look down on people? Why shouldn't I weed out-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... The weak in our society?

    Scott Rae: I mean, after all, if the universe, like Dawkins described it, is nothing but blind, pitiless indifference- [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: You know-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... Then what good is... Where, where does dignity come from?

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah. And what good is having debates and writing books and-

    Scott Rae: Exactly

    Erik Thoennes: ... Getting his ideas out there all the time?

    Scott Rae: Yeah, yeah. All right. We'll, we'll include the links to these stories for our listeners, too, 'cause these are just these are fascinating stories. Now, here's... This number three, again, comes from the UK, and this was on Wednesday. The UK Supreme Court ruled unanimously that a woman is defined by her biological sex under their Equalities law. The court sided with a group called For Women Scotland, publicly, supported, I think, both with their reputation and financially by the Harry Potter author, J.K. Rowling, was a big supporter of this. They brought a case against the Scottish government, arguing that same- that sex-based protections should only apply to people who are... To women who are born female.... The Supreme Court was asked to decide on the proper interpretation of their 2010 Equality Act, this is how long this discussion's been going on, which applies across Britain. The central question the court picked up was how the words "woman" and "sex" are defined in the legislation. The Chief Judge of the court put it this way: "The unanimous decision of this court is that the terms 'woman' and 'sex' in the Equality Act of 2010 refer to a biological woman and biological sex." He said the ruling should not be seen as a triumph of one side over the other, and stressed that the law still gives protection against discrimination to transgender people. Now, we've, we've talked at length about the Cass Report and how European countries are moving away from, this hysteria on gender-affirming treatments, particularly for minors, which seems to make good sense to us and goes with the data, not against it. But I'm interested in your take, on how- on this UK Supreme Court ruling.

    Erik Thoennes: When you read the ruling, and when you read the stories about it, you s- I started off saying, "Well, this is great. Yay for biology," and how wonderful that we're realizing the insanity of cases like a man who is in prison for rape, claiming to be a woman, and being put in prison with women.

    Scott Rae: Yeah. [chuckles] Which a- which actually, Richard Dawkins referred to as-

    Erik Thoennes: Yes

    Scott Rae: ... Insanity. Used just those terms.

    Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Right. Or, or men who identify as women being able to be in a women's shelter who've been abused by men.

    Scott Rae: Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: Those sorts of cases are making people realize, "Well, I want to affirm your experience, but not to the point where I'm endangering other people and not protecting people the way the law is intended to protect people." But then, as I read on, they wanted to assure people who identify as transgender to not lose heart because they're going to build in all the protections that they would need. And I'm certainly all for treating everyone with dignity and no one receiving, ill treatment in any way. But to say we have particular protections that apply to women, but then try to, at the same time, garble everything, so you try to include still men who identify as women, and then they have these... All these terms that are starting to about your s- your certification of your gender. And, [lips smack] and I just think the language issue is bewildering these days. And I think we, as Christians, need to be very clear on what we believe and not lose the language battle in this. One of the terms, your gender assigned at birth-

    Scott Rae: Right

    Erik Thoennes: ... That I'm hearing-

    Scott Rae: Right

    Erik Thoennes: ... Christians more and more using. And then, well, if-

    Scott Rae: We, we think that's the right term.

    Erik Thoennes: That's right. Well, that's what we're, we're being taught to say, so your gender assigned at birth, as if-

    Scott Rae: By whom?

    Erik Thoennes: ... It's not fixed. Yeah, yeah, who assigns the gender? And we can't really know what it is until you have an experience where you decide that for yourself, what- whenever that is. But then if you have it assigned at birth, well, then it makes perfect sense to reassign it at some point. And so these- the language that's increasingly being used, I think, is something we need to be very aware of and not fall into the confusion of this. I think we may have said this in a r- in a previous podcast, but people are very confused, but that doesn't mean the Bible's confusing.

    Scott Rae: Correct.

    Erik Thoennes: It's very clear, and it's a glorious thing that God's made us men and women, and all of these efforts to obliterate those distinctions aren't just political, social, legal issues. These are profoundly theological issues because this is the way God intends to be glorified and imaged. And if w- if we start to blunt all of these wonderful God-created distinctions, even in the language we use, it's dishonoring to God and what He's created.

    Scott Rae: It will be very interesting, I think, to see what kinds... What these protections actually look like when they, when they are rolled out. 'cause I'm, I'm, I'm with you. I'm all in favor of not discriminating against people, treating them with dignity and respect. But it'll be interesting to see if the definition of discrimination has to do with who, which team, which team they compete on-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... Or which locker room they're allowed to go in. You know, if that, if that's, you know, if restricting some of that is a, is considered discrimination, then I think you might have a point about some of these protections blunting the impact of the decision as a whole.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: And I think the idea of sex assigned at birth, I think, assumes that the parents are the ones who will assign the sex, and only in cases where it's- where there's, where there's ambiguity at birth, might it be challenging. But I think you raise a good point, that if sex is something that is assigned, then it can be reassigned-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... At some later point. That's why I think the decision actually, defines the biological woman and biological sex-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... As something that's innate, and not something... I mean, it's, it's assigned by God, but that's as, that's as far- I think that's as far as the court was willing to go.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: So I think that's maybe a heads-up for our listeners to just watch this carefully, to see what's the, what's the rollout gonna look like when these protections start to be implemented. And I think if it, if it's, you know, if we're, if we're ensuring that people are treated with dignity and respect, and not discriminated against in terms of housing, or jobs, or education, you know, things like that, then I think, more power to them.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: But depending on how that discrimination is defined-... You know, we could, you may end up, you know, you may end up being more prophetic than you know.

    Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Yeah, and even that word, discrimination, it's almost entirely negatively used and perceived these days. There was a time when someone with discriminating tastes was-

    Scott Rae: Yes

    Erik Thoennes: ... Admired. [chuckles] You can tell the difference between good food and bad food- [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: Yes

    Erik Thoennes: ... And good music and bad music. But, but now discrimination is almost entirely negative. So the ability to discriminate between what's good and life-giving and what's untrue and destructive, needs to be included in something that's very important for us.

    Scott Rae: Yeah, sometimes we forget that our spouses were actually very discriminating-

    Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: ... You know, in choosing us.

    Erik Thoennes: Maybe Donna, yeah. [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: Maybe she wasn't discriminating enough with me. [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: I don't think she's looking back.

    Erik Thoennes: No, she's not.

    Scott Rae: So-

    Erik Thoennes: She's a good woman.

    Scott Rae: I would, I would say at this point, I th- I would absol- I say this absolutely is a victory of one side over another here.

    Erik Thoennes: Yes.

    Scott Rae: And I think if Eur- and I think Europe I think is a bit ahead of the US in this area, where Europe seems, is backing away from some of these gender-affirming treatments. The US seems to be doubling down.

    Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

    Scott Rae: And that's a, that's a... I find a disturbing trend. Biblically, of course, God created them male and female. Gender dysphoria is a result of the general entrance of sin, something to deal with, but, you know, it's, it's not something to be celebrated.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: It's not, it's not your true nature coming out, and we're celebrating you becoming the, who you genuinely are.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: It's a result of the general entrance of sin. It was not the way God intended things to be. I'm actually a little surprised, given the pervasiveness and universality of sin, that we don't see more of these cases-

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah

    Scott Rae: ... Than we actually do.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah. I just came out of class where we were talking about the humanity of Christ, and the first point I made was Jesus had a human birth, and Jesus had a human body. And again, we're not just learning about God when we look at Jesus, we're learning about ourselves, and the fact that the eternal divine Son took on a body is a radical affirmation of embodied existence for humans, not just in creation, but now in the incarnation, we see that even elevated. And so once again, we are in a position to be champions of the body, and including our sexuality that goes with that and our embodied expression of that. And so, you know, we are in a position in our society, maybe like never before, where we are to be advocates of and champions of embodied human existence and all that goes with that, as the ones who recognize that's how God intended it, and how it will be for all eternity, and the resurrected and glorified state we'll be in-

    Scott Rae: Yes

    Erik Thoennes: ... With bodies.

    Scott Rae: Yeah. Yeah, as my pastor puts it, you know, we're not souls on a stick.

    Erik Thoennes: Right. [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: Our soul matters.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: But the, you know, the way the Bible talks about that is our soul and our body are intertwined together, and we will, we will have resurrection bodies for eternity. Now, I think we'll, we'll have a time before the Lord's return-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... Where we'll exist in a disembodied state. But that's not, that's-- will not be the norm for eternity.

    Erik Thoennes: And it's not the ideal, and that's why the resurrection is so important in Jesus' ministry and for us as well. That's why Nancy Pearcey's book, Love Thy Body-

    Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

    Erik Thoennes: ... And Rebecca McLaughlin's latest book are so helpful because it talks about issues like the transgender issue, but also the abortion issue, as so demeaning and disregarding of the human body as this unessential thing that we can just manipulate however we'd like.

    Scott Rae: All right, one more story?

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: I think we got another one coming from Europe. This is where the French legislature actually put into effect a law that had been passed a couple of years ago, but actually started enforcing it, that denies anonymity to sperm and egg donors. This is from the publication Euro Weekly. What this means is that every donor-conceived person born in 2022 or later, will be able to find out information about their biological parents once they turn 18. If requested, they'll be given their parent's name, age, appearance, health status, profession, family situation, and any other available information. [chuckles] That's a lot, that's a lot of stuff. The change was applauded by donor-conceived children and their advocates. One of these advocates, an organization dedicated to achieving... To advocating for donor-conceived persons, said it was long overdue, said, "It's a victory we fought for. Knowing where you came from, understanding your medical background is not a luxury, it's a right." Okay? Now, Erik, this has been tried in other parts of the world, and what happened, sort of predictably, is that once anonymity was removed, the supply of available sperm and egg donors plummeted off the cliff. And there's a good reason for that, if you think about it, because, you know, most sperm donors donate when they're college students or young adults. They, they do not donate with the intention of 20 years later, having somebody come, [knocking] knock on, knock on their door and say, "Hey, I'm your kid. I wanna have a relationship with you." When they've likely married, gone on with their lives, have kids of their own, have a family of their own, that they don't want disrupted by this. So I'm, I'm curious. This is really interesting stuff. There's a lot-- I think the Scripture has a lot to say about this. What's your, what's your thoughts on this?

    Erik Thoennes: Well, I f- I was fascinated by the term they were using that was driving this move, and it-- they said there's been too much of an adult or parent-oriented approach to this, rather than focusing on what's best for the child, who very likely could be really helped by knowing a medical background, by knowing if there are any, uh-

    Scott Rae: Essential

    Erik Thoennes: ... Essential biological realities that could be helpful to them, even in approaching, you know, medical problems. But, but it was an interesting way to put it, that-... That far too often, what was going to be best for the parents, not necessarily for the child, is what's been driving the anonymity that they've allowed all this time. But the other thing that I found heartening was they're disposing of all the sperm. There are no eggs left, apparently, but there is sperm left, [chuckles] but they're gonna g- dispose of all the sperm that was, given dur- in an anonymous understanding.

    Scott Rae: Yeah, but by the way, the r- the reason for that is because eggs are almost impossible to-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... To thaw out once they've been frozen. Sperm, not so much; embryos, not so much.

    Erik Thoennes: Huh.

    Scott Rae: But that's the reason-

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah

    Scott Rae: ... 'cause eggs, you know, they-

    Erik Thoennes: Don't last as long.

    Scott Rae: They just-

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah

    Scott Rae: ... Well, and they're, i- you know, freezing them is one thing, but thawing them out is, you know, probably eight times out of 10, unsuccessful.

    Erik Thoennes: Wow.

    Scott Rae: So.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah, and I was also heartened to hear that they were initially gonna discard the embryos they have currently, but they've held off on that. There was a pushback from that. That was good to hear, too.

    Scott Rae: Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll see where that goes-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... In the longer haul.

    Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.

    Scott Rae: Um-

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah, but yeah, I thought it was very interesting, and it will certainly lower the supply. There's no doubt about it. [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: No doubt about that.

    Erik Thoennes: And, and it'll change the whole mentality about it. And I think, I think it's a good thing to humanize this whole thing that can so easily become so just purely scientific, that this is a profound thing God's created that shouldn't be continually disconnected from any relationship and any humanity in it, and just reduce it to mere scientific laboratory sorts of things. And so I thought it was a good thing when I read about it, and I did like this idea of giving kids who are the product of artificial insemination a, an ability to find out a little bit more about who they are biologically. You know, as a dad of adopted kids, I wouldn't want people to put too much importance on that, in that, [lips smack] that, yeah, those are significant things in who you are, but they're not defining things in the most important ways. And so they can be helpful. They could lead to some sort of meaningful relationship with someone who contributed [chuckles] part of your existence to you, maybe just to raise a little money when you're in college, like you're saying.

    Scott Rae: Actually, not for sperm donors-

    Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: ... Not very much.

    Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right. Exactly.

    Scott Rae: Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: Egg donors, that's a little different story-

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah

    Scott Rae: ... 'cause the process is significantly-

    Erik Thoennes: Yes

    Scott Rae: ... More involved.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: You know, I would encourage our listeners, there's a, there's a site that is, whose purpose is to help donor kid- donor-conceived kids connect with their bio parents. It's called the Donor Sibling Registry. If you, if you just Google that, the site will come up immediately, and there are thousands of kids in this registry. And-

    Erik Thoennes: Wow

    Scott Rae: ... You know, the probably the, some of them have connected, but there's, there are thousands of them who have not connected with a bio parent and probably never will. And what that suggests, I think, is that there's, you know, there's some- there's something that they feel like is missing 'cause they don't have any kind of knowledge of or connection with- ... Or relationship with- ... The person who gave them so much of who they are biologically.

    Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

    Scott Rae: And I think what this suggests, and, you know, and understandably, many donors don't wanna be tracked down. I totally get that. But what this suggests is that the biblical notion of continuity between procreation and parenting, now there's something to that, I think, something powerful about that.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: Now, that's not to say that, if parents are unfit, of course, that's different, and adoption is different than that. 'cause I would, I would want, wanna insist that adoption is not procreation, it's a rescue. So it's, it's fundamentally something- ... Different-

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah

    Scott Rae: ... Than procreation.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah, that's true.

    Scott Rae: And I think it's... I've heard- I've actually heard some people suggest that sperm donation is almost analogous to the biblical tradition of levirate marriage, which you see in the Book of Ruth.

    Erik Thoennes: Wow.

    Scott Rae: And it's this just a, just tradition, for our listeners unfamiliar with that, where if a woman was widowed, childless, the closest next of kin to her deceased husband was responsible for marrying her and raising up a child to carry on the lineage of her deceased husband.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: And, and the person who, that person who actually fathered the child, you know, the inheritance rights all were from the deceased husband, and so he sort of, he sort of acted like a sperm donor in that way, but the big difference is, it's called levirate marriage for a reason.

    Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Right.

    Scott Rae: And because in order to engage in procreative activity, you had to be married, and you had to... So he had- he actually had to marry the person, which is what we see happening in the, with Boaz and Ruth. They actually got formally married before they engaged in any kind of procreation. So it's not, it's not quite the same, but it does have, maybe it does have a few things in common with that. Now, I think the Bible has a lot to say. We- this is not the time to go... We, this is a long conversation, but the Bible, I think, has a lot to say about third parties entering into the matrix of marriage for procreative purposes. And I think it's fair to say, just in summary, that the Scripture is pretty skeptical about sperm, egg, and womb donors becoming, entering into the marital context f- in order to procreate a child. So I would say, what I tell couples, Erik, if they're wrestling with infertility and they need a sperm or egg donor because of a biological issue with one party or the other, to actually do something different.... To do a d- to consider adoption, but to consider what I, what I would call embryo adoption, which you get, you get a lot of the same things that you would get in normal... You know, you get pregnancy and childbirth-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... You get the connection from conception forward, and so on. Not to, not to downplay traditional adoption, of course, but it's another alternative that not many couples that I talk to have even considered.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah. I was thinking of Onan in Genesis 38, who spilled his seed on the ground instead of fulfilling his levirate marriage responsibilities.

    Scott Rae: Correct. 'Cause it w- yeah, because it was a heavy responsibility.

    Erik Thoennes: Right. Yes.

    Scott Rae: And it had, it had major financial implications, too, because you were b- you were supporting the wife and the child, who was sort of your own-

    Erik Thoennes: Right

    Scott Rae: ... But not really.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: You know, for, at, you know, at least until they became an adult.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Wow! I w- I was also thinking of the implications of the connection between sex and procreation that has been so disconnected since the advent of the pill, really.

    Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.

    Erik Thoennes: I mean, the prevalence of birth control and the way it's used now has so, in the minds of many, separated sex and procreation as well. So it's, it's, it's got that connection, too. So many things we've been talking about today get down to God's original intent. What is God's intent for this, and are we being faithful with that divinely orchestrated purpose or not? [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: Yeah, and if you, if you operate, contrary to that can come back to bite you in the rear end.

    Erik Thoennes: That's right, and not just before God, but in practical daily living-

    Scott Rae: That's correct

    Erik Thoennes: ... As well.

    Scott Rae: Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: Or on a basketball team. [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: Among other things.

    Erik Thoennes: Right. [chuckles]

    Scott Rae: All right. Hey, you ready to answer some questions?

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

    Scott Rae: We got, we got great questions this week, too, and this is... Some of these are, I think, are, you'll be, particularly helpful in saying some of these. The first one of these is, was one we were revisiting from a week ago, 'cause there was a question about the legacy of Martin Luther King, that when Tim Muehlhoff and I interviewed Chris Brooks, and we posted that a couple weeks ago, this listener wrote in, and I sent, or I sent the question on to Chris and gave him a chance to respond, and this week he responded. So we're gonna go back and read what Chris had to say. He had a v- I think, a very helpful response. Here's the question, just to refresh our listeners: "I'm a Black female Christian, and while listening to the legacy of Martin Luther King episode, I could not help but wonder why Tim and Scott were either unaware or unwilling to address the increasing evidence that points to MLK's heterodox theology, hedonistic lifestyle, and communistic ideology. My question is, why isn't there any scrutiny of all the evidence that points to these things in MLK's life?" And so I sent that to Chris, and here's his response: "First, I want to thank you for your thoughtful question and for taking time to listen to our conversation on the legacy of Dr. King. Second, it's important to note that more can be said about the life of Dr. King than be cov- than can be covered in our brief podcast. Volumes have been written on his life, both in praise of the good he accomplished on behalf of the many, and in critique of the mistakes he made as a sinful and fallen man. We must never forget that all of our heroes of the faith, including the biblical figures that Scripture commends to us, were flawed and desperately in need of the grace and redemption that is found in Christ alone." Very appropriate, I think, on this Easter weekend. "Concerning Dr. King's ethical failings, I did offer a disclaimer that much like King David of Israel in the Scriptures, he had moral struggles with sin patterns that we should reject. The sins of Dr. King should not be minimized or trivialized away. However, I would argue that much like King David, Dr. King's moral failings do not eliminate or cancel the incredible good that God accomplished through him by his grace." Emphasis, I think, on that phrase, "by his grace." "Each of us has a story of imperfections, sins, mistakes, and failures. This is part of our testimony and a reminder that everyone needs a Savior. There's only one who stands as a testament of moral perfection, and that's Jesus. The rest of our heroes of the faith should be commended to the extent that their actions and lives reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God." Anything you want to add to that?

    Erik Thoennes: Well, I so appreciate Chris's response. I may have missed it, but it doesn't sound like, though, when I read it, he addressed the heterodox theology question she raises-

    Scott Rae: Not so much

    Erik Thoennes: ... As well.

    Scott Rae: Not so much.

    Erik Thoennes: I think that's equally important to think about. And again, it's interesting how this really connects to our first conversation today about athletes who people will turn a blind eye to some glaring faults because they do so much positive-

    Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

    Erik Thoennes: ... And represent Christianity in some good ways, and we want to be affiliated with that. I wouldn't want to do that either in some pretty faulty theology or faulty living, and I completely appreciate the fact that none of us is perfect, and we all need desperately grace. And at the same time, I do think one of the differences between David and Martin Luther King is we have Psalm 51, that David clearly realizes and repents, not just publicly-

    Scott Rae: True

    Erik Thoennes: ... But throughout the millennia, we've got his repentance-

    Scott Rae: Yes

    Erik Thoennes: ... That he owns it, and he's not trying to shirk it at all. And he says, "Before you, only you, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight." So I wish we had something like that for Martin Luther King, where we could say, "Well, he came to terms with it." I do think another point, maybe especially with the heterodox theological commitments, one of the tragedies of American history in race relations is solid evangelical schools weren't open to Black people-... As early as liberal ones were. And so leaders like Martin Luther King ended up getting education in the places they were able to-

    Scott Rae: Correct

    Erik Thoennes: ... That weren't teaching them solid theology, and I just, I grieve over that. And so I think how different a lot could be in American church history, in race relations and otherwise, if more conservative evangelical schools were more open earlier to Black leaders to come and learn solid theology there. So I think considering people in the context that they developed their ideas... [lips smack] Some of my great heroes of the faith, like Jonathan Edwards, owned slaves. So what do you do-

    Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

    Erik Thoennes: ... With a glaring problem like that? Well, I need to appreciate them in their context and not judge them based on the way we see things more clearly now than they would've at the time. And, and so again, we all need a whole lot of grace. We need to understand people in their context, and at the same time, not sort of shrug our shoulders. I was in a seminar in my PhD program, and there was an African man in there, and we were talking about Karl Barth, and we were just appreciating the depth of thinking in his theology and how influential. And my prof, just in passing, mentioned that Barth had a mistress-

    Scott Rae: Oh, [chuckles]

    Erik Thoennes: ... For a long time.

    Scott Rae: Oh.

    Erik Thoennes: And this African brother, he said: "Then why do we listen to a thing he says? Why are we even talking about him?" And, and it was-

    Scott Rae: Interesting

    Erik Thoennes: ... It was fascinating-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... To see his perspective, where we were in this intellectual environment and sort of considering these ideas, but for him, that sort of lack of integrity was a deal breaker. And so we could talk about whether we should watch The Cosby Show.

    Scott Rae: Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: Is it still funny?

    Scott Rae: Yeah.

    Erik Thoennes: [laughing] If someone's glaring problems devalue-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... Something beautiful they've made, or funny they've made, or interesting they've made, or helpful, how do we view that now? And so the reason I think I will make a big deal out of Martin Luther King's influence is because we are on exactly the same page with Christian anthropology-

    Scott Rae: Yes

    Erik Thoennes: ... Which leads to the only real way of combating racism I'm aware of. And so his teaching on the value of human beings based in being created by God in His image, we couldn't be more on the same page with that. And so we share the same ethics because we share the same theological anthropology that leads to those ethics, and that's why I think it's important to continue to keep his legacy alive.

    Scott Rae: Thanks. That's, that's really helpful, I think a good, a good addition. And I hope, I hope this satisfies our listener, 'cause we've, we've, we've tried hard to take what she's... What this person said seriously, and respond to it. So here's a second one. This is, this is also a follow-up for a question back a few months ago. "Thank you for your answer to my question back in December about kids whose parents might be deconstructing. I have a follow-up question. Obviously, if someone believes in a false Jesus, they don't have saving faith, but where do we draw that line? If someone held to a biblical view f- of Jesus for most of their lives, has a true faith and relationship with him, then is pulled into a more progressive direction, where does salvation factor in? I worry about my parents, and I question how I should speak to them as their daughter. They don't handle disagreement well. If they hold beliefs that we disagree on, but I'm sure there's salvation, then I can have peace with that and let the disagreements go. But if this is a concern for salvation, that's a different story." Okay, what do you think about that, where they ought to draw the line?

    Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Well, I think it's important to make a distinction between what we need to believe to be saved objectively and doctrinally, and our ability to know who understands those essentials and who doesn't. And, and so I want to be very clear that we need to have a biblical understanding of the person of Christ, the saving work of Christ. We have to have enough of an understanding of God to understand John 3:16. So you can say, "Well, all you need is John 3:16." Well, I also need to fill the words up, like God, with definition-

    Scott Rae: Right

    Erik Thoennes: ... And who His only Son is, and what that means, and what it means that He gave Himself. So, so it's one thing to say, "Let's keep it really simple and just mere Christianity," but as soon as you say that, you need to start filling those words up with meaning and definition sufficiently so that I don't just think of the words Jesus Christ to mean anything. And so you have- need to have enough of an understanding of the person and work of Christ and the essential elements of the Gospel to be saved. Now, having said that, I think there are people who are part of cults who get the Gospel in spite of it. I think there are card-carrying Southern Baptists who affirm all sorts of things about Jesus who aren't gonna be in heaven. [chuckles] So, so I think the subjective apprehension of something is something we need to seek to discern so we can communicate clearly, and at the same time, not think we actually know deep down what someone believes more than anything. I talk to my students about the Trinity, and I talk about tacit understanding, that we can have an understanding that we can't even articulate very well, but it's there nonetheless, that leads to a saving faith, even if we're very unclear on it. Even adjective order, you know, you would never say blue big bus, because at some point, you just learn that it's big blue bus. We, we know an [chuckles] adjective order without ever explicitly l- remembering learning it or anything, but we keep those adjectives in order, in a very particular order. And so we can have an understanding of things without it even being explicitly conscious. And so I think distinguishing between solid doctrine that leads to salvation and the subjective apprehension of it that only God ultimately knows is an important distinction.

    Scott Rae: So you would encourage this particular listener to trust in God's justice?... When it comes to her parents?

    Erik Thoennes: Well, I would want to ask her parents lots of questions about what they actually believe, and if that belief is sufficient for salvation according to the Bible. And if not, have good conversations and well-spirited-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... Arguments about it, and because truth matters, and truth is a matter of life and death, and Heaven and Hell. And at the same time, God can be working in the lives of people, in their hearts, in ways that they have a very hard time even articulating it. I don't want to be satisfied with that, but I also don't want to assume I know more than I actually do.

    Scott Rae: True, true. That's really helpful. I trust that's helpful for this particular listener, too.

    Erik Thoennes: I hope so.

    Scott Rae: 'Cause my heart goes out to this person.

    Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

    Scott Rae: That's a, that's a tough one, 'cause usually we talk about kids deconstructing. This is different when the kid is observing the parents deconstructing.

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Well, I just saw in the UK, Gen Z is becoming more religious than Millennials now. There's a shift in the other direction, so I think we may see more of this sort of thing.

    Scott Rae: Keep our eyes open for that.

    Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

    Scott Rae: Here's a third. This is where I'm glad, I'm glad we have a professional theologian with us on this. "In Revelation 21 and 22, we read, 'Then I saw a new Heaven and a new Earth, for the first Heaven and new Earth, and first Earth had passed away. I saw the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God.' The author, John, goes to ex- goes on to explain how the new Heavens and new Earth will have no pain, no death, no darkness, and no curse. In short, our future life will be very different from what it's like now. If we add what Paul says about rether- resurrection life, the difference between now and the future increases even further. I find that hard to comprehend. Could you, could you share your perspective on the continuities and discontinuities of this world and the next, given the contrast we see in the Bible?" Now, recognize that he's asking us to do this in about 90 seconds.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: [chuckles] So this is, this is... You, you, I'm sure, spend several class sessions on this.

    Erik Thoennes: Yes.

    Scott Rae: Uh-

    Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think generally speaking, Christians don't see sufficient continuity between our life here on Earth and the new Heavens and the new Earth, what's to come. We use terms like "die and go to Heaven," where we leave the world behind, and I even grew up singing, "This world's not my home. I'm just passing through."

    Scott Rae: Right.

    Erik Thoennes: And so to restore this idea biblically, that God is not starting from scratch after scrapping everything He's made. He's actually redeeming and restoring what's been tragically lost in the Fall. And so I think for most Christians, we need to appreciate a greater continuity than we tend to.

    Scott Rae: Right.

    Erik Thoennes: We think of this angelic, floating on clouds, playing harps, which I actually have no interest in, [laughs] rather than work being part of the-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... Eternal Heavenly existence in the new Heavens and the new Earth, and feasting, and enjoying life, and learning and growing. I don't think we'll ever be omni-anything. I think you and I are gonna sit down and have conversations that have similarities-

    Scott Rae: Yeah

    Erik Thoennes: ... To this one. The-

    Scott Rae: I'll look forward to that.

    Erik Thoennes: Yes. And now, at the same time, there's gonna be such an awesome removal of tears, and cancer cells, and death, and sin, that it is going to be so wonderful. Like the Bible says, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard what God has prepared for those who love Him." And so it'll be so gloriously different, relief from the world. I remember I was walking on the beach with a friend one time, and there was this gorgeous sunset, and I said, "Look at that!" And he said, "Yeah, not bad for a fallen world." 'Cause he was just saying- ... Everything is going to be free of the curse. And, and so there will be glorious differences, but I think typically far more continuity than we tend to realize.

    Scott Rae: Yeah, I... Just one thought I have on this, that, Paul's very clear in Romans 8 that the whole Earth is groaning for its redemption, which suggests that God will redeem what's currently existing, not that He's gonna throw it away and start over again.

    Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.

    Scott Rae: Because He didn't throw any of us away and start over again, either-

    Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Right

    Scott Rae: ... In virtue of our own redemption.

    Erik Thoennes: Right.

    Scott Rae: So I hope that's helpful for this particular listener. Erik, thanks so much for being with us. It's always great to have you here.

    Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott.

    Scott Rae: You're so insightful, such good takes all the way around, so-

    Erik Thoennes: Thank you

    Scott Rae: ... Greatly appreciated. This has been the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. We have all sorts of programs that if you want to find out more, we have programs in apologetics, spiritual formation, Old and New Testament, systematic theology, pastoral ministry, marriage and family therapy, and undergrad programs in Bible theology and apologetics. You can visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please give us a rating on your podcast app, and feel free to share it with a friend. So and if you want to submit comments, or ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover, or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. [upbeat music] Join us on Tuesday for Sean and my conversation about the 2025 report on the State of the Bible, produced by the American Bible Society. Thanks so much for listening. Happy Easter, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]