Why does God allow disabilities? What is the point of someone's disability? What is disability theology, and what are the implications of this for the church? In what sense will disabilities be healed when we meet the Lord? We’ll answer these questions and more with our guest, Dr Chris Ralston.

Guest Bio: D. Christopher Ralston (PhD Rice University) served on staff at Joni and Friends International Disability Center from 2013 to 2020 and is also a fellow of The Center for Bioethics & Human Dignity. He is co-editor of Philosophical Reflections on Disability (Springer, 2009, and The Development of Bioethics in the United States (Springer, 2012).

Articles mentioned in this episode:

  • (2022). “Disability and the Resurrection: An Introduction.” Introduction for symposium on Disability and the Resurrection. Published April 21, 2022 in Sapientia, an online publication of the Carl F. Henry Center for Theological Understanding at Trinity International University (Deerfield, IL). https://henrycenter.tiu.edu/2022/04/disability-and-the-resurrection-an-introduction/
  • (2022). “Shining through the Cracks.” Response essay for symposium on Disability and the Resurrection. Published April 21, 2022 in Sapientia, an online publication of the Carl F. Henry Center for Theological Understanding at Trinity International University (Deerfield, IL). https://henrycenter.tiu.edu/2022/04/shining-through-the-cracks/
  • (2019). “Disability, Calling, and Transformation: A Response to Hans. S. Reinders’ Disability, Providence, and Ethics.” Response essay for book symposium on Disability, Providence, and Ethics: Bridging Gaps, Transforming Lives (Baylor University Press, 2014). Published December 9, 2019 in Sapientia, an online publication of the Carl F. Henry Center for Theological Understanding at Trinity International University (Deerfield, IL). https://henrycenter.tiu.edu/2019/12/disability-calling-and-transformation/



Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] Why does God allow disabilities? What is disability theology, and what are the implications of this for the church? In what sense will disabilities be healed when we meet the Lord when He returns? We'll answer these questions and more with our guest, Dr. Chris Ralston. Chris is a Talbot philosophy grad. He's gone on to distinguish himself with several master degrees and a PhD. But we're looking forward to this. I'm your host, Scott Rae.

Sean McDowell: And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.

Scott Rae: This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Chris, welcome. Really glad to have you with us. I remember when you were a student here, and then you've gone on... You went on and got a PhD at Rice in bioethics, and have worked for Joni and Friends for a while. But one of the things, you have an article that in-- that tells your personal story, entitled, "Why Am I Disabled?" So tell us a bit of that story.

Chris Ralston: Sure. Sure. Well, first of all, it's, great to be here, so thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. So I came to faith in Christ, as a little boy, which was, really the most important decision of my life. And then I've been married for about seven and a half years, which is the second most important decision of my life, as well as probably the most brilliant decision I ever made. And-

Scott Rae: I've met your wife. I can attest to that.

Chris Ralston: Yes, exactly. So I definitely married up, let's just put it that way. So, so really, a big part of my story is that I'm alive today because of the choice, the decision that my mom made, to choose life for me because even though sh- even though she knew that I would be born with disabilities. In utero, while she was pregnant, I was exposed to rubella, or German measles, it's often called. And as a result of which, I was born with a congenital neuromuscular disorder, that left me with, some mobility issues. I use a crutch and a mealch- and a wheelchair for mobility. Mostly deaf in one ear, which can sometimes be convenient, when you don't want to hear things. [chuckles] I have a mild speech impediment, and also some chronic, health, chronic health issues and, pain, issues with chronic pain and that kind of thing. But one of the perks of that is I always get the best parking spots. [chuckles] So there's always a, there's always a silver lining to everything. God gave me a love for w- for word, for literature, for philosophy and theology, and so forth. So I've spent most of my young adult life, pursuing academic degrees, including the two from, Biola that you mentioned. And I've had just some great opportunities in life, such as doing this interview, working for Joni and Friends, [chuckles] serving as a fellow at the CBHD Academy, the Academy of Fellow at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, and working on some exciting publishing projects. So it's a really amazing opportunity that I've had in life, but I've also had, I've also experienced some of the more difficult challenges that can go along with being disabled, being isolated, being- ... Disregarded, belittled. Um- I was even told once that I was insurance liability.

Scott Rae: Oh, my goodness.

Chris Ralston: So the point, the point is that, disability has both its upsides and its downsides. My story ultimately is not dramatic, but it is a story of God's grace and mercy. There's been challenges, but there's also been blessings. [chuckles] That's a little overview of my-

Scott Rae: Sure

Chris Ralston: ... Just my personal story.

Sean McDowell: Tell us, make the connection from your personal story to deciding you wanted to study this professionally and write and work for, say, Joni Eareckson Tada's ministry.

Chris Ralston: Sure, sure. So I would say probably as far back as maybe junior high, somewhere around that age, I began to learn a- learn about and become interested in things like, issues like abortion and euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide, and that really fueled, [clears throat] really a deep, commitment and conviction about the value of human life, of all human life, no matter how seemingly imperfect or weak, they might be, throughout all, and from at all stages of life. And so really, as a result of that led me then into pr- wanting to communicate those kinds of ideas in a way, in effect, in-- effectively, in a way that people can understand and relate to. So that really led me to Biola, where I, as an undergrad, I studied communications. [chuckles] Initially, I was thinking maybe I'd go into the film industry or something like that. God definitely had other plans, because along the way, I caught the f- the, sort of the philosophy bug, and when, then the MA philosophy program started there at Talbot. So I went ahead and, did that program, and that really, sort of stepped me on a trajectory, really that has then influenced a lot of the rest, the rest of my life. As, as you mentioned, Scott, I went on and got a couple master's degrees in philosophy and bioethics, and then ultimately ended up, doing a PhD in philosophy. [clears throat] And that led me into... And then even, and then after that, after I got done with the PhD, had this amazing opportunity to work at Joni and Friends, which is a, for people who may not be familiar with Joni and Friends, it's a, Christian nonprofit disability ministry that serves and works alongside people with disabilities, really throughout the world, both here in the United States and around the world. And of course, that got me, or really forced me to think more deeply about things like disability theology, disability ethics, these kinds of things. And so really, I've just had the opportunity to think about, to reflect on, to write about, issues related to disability theology and ethics. And I... And into that mix, I bring my own personal experience as a person with a disability. Obviously, these are not just abstract issues for me.

Scott Rae: Of course.

Chris Ralston: I know what it's like. I know what it's like to-... Feel like your body has betrayed you, or to feel like, you know, you don't have the strength to do what you need to do in life. So concrete or abstract bioethics and theology issues become very personal for me as a result of that experience. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: So Chris, that's really helpful. I appreciate that a lot. But tell us a little bit about how we should think theologically about disability.

Chris Ralston: Sure. So, [inhales] as, Joni Eareckson Tada, who I used to work for, but, she's often fond of saying, she's often fond of saying that, "Disability is a normal part of life in an abnormal world." And I think that's a helpful way of thinking about disability. A couple of important points that I like to emphasize, when thinking about the theology of disabilities. First thing I think is that disability is not an accident or a mistake from God's perspective. When we think about in terms of God's divine providence, we know from Scripture that God works all things according to His will to accomplish His purposes, as we're told in Romans eight twenty-eight. His good purpose for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose. So while disability may have, [sniffs]

Chris Ralston: a, for example, a physical component to it, you know, genetic disorders, you know, traumatic injury, these kinds of things, there's also another layer of explanation that we have to think about, and that is the le- the level of divine providence. [lips smack] so I think of, for example, in Exodus, four, [clears throat] verses ten to twelve, when, God calls Moses and He says, "Hey, go down to, go down to Egypt. Tell Pharaoh to let my people go, and I'm gonna have you lead my people out of slavery." And God-- And Moses says: "But I can't speak. I'm, I'm not eloquent. I don't know how to do this." Moses... Or God says back to Moses: "Who gave man his mouth?" "Was it-- Wasn't it me?" So there's, there's often a debate about whether God causes disability or simply permits it. But the bottom line, and Jo- this is one thing that Joni is oft- as well fond of saying, is that by the time it actually gets to us, God has signed off on it. [chuckles] So we can... So whether we think of Him as actively causing it or permitting it's not from God's perspective, a mistake or an accident. It's something that, from His perspective, He has said: "Yes, I will allow that. I will allow that and permit that into that person's life."

Scott Rae: Okay, let me-

Chris Ralston: Second thing that I think-

Scott Rae: Go ahead.

Chris Ralston: I'm sorry, go ahead.

Scott Rae: No, go ahead. You have a second thing.

Chris Ralston: I was... [chuckles] Yeah. I was gonna say also, I think another really important thing is to emphasize that [clears throat] while... The, the question that always come up- comes up: What is the, what's the place of sin and the Fall in thinking about disability? And to be sure, sin has something to do-- or sorry, disability has something to do with sin, no question about that. But it's important that we parse that out carefully. And I think the way we need to parse that out is, we live in a fallen, a fallen, broken world, where things like genetic disorders and traumatic brain injuries and all the rest, all these things can happen. That's the sense in which sin and the Fall are connected to disability. But, but on an individual level, [chuckles] we can't simply assume from the outset that the fact that someone has a disability necessarily means that they've somehow sinned, or their parents sinned, or anything like that. And that's, that's a big issue because it, both historically in Jesus's time, as well as even down to today, there're o- there's often an assumption in a lot of cultures and a lot of places that sin is the, is... Or disability is the marker or indicator of some kind of sin or a curse that has been placed on that person. But Jesus, in John nine three, clearly and explicitly breaks that connection. [chuckles] He says, when the disciples asked Jesus, "Hey, who sinned? This, this man or his parents?" Jesus said, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him." And then the final thing I think to understand about... Or the final two things, really, about disability that I think we need to understand theologically, is that rather than it being just sort of some, an unmitigated tragedy, disability is an opportunity for God to be glorified. [chuckles] and I think that's something we'll probably return to in future questions. But, but yeah, it's, it's an opportunity for God to be glorified, not just in spite of disability, but in and through it. And then ultimately, disability will be redeemed in the eternal state. For those who, those in heaven, for those who are in Christ, there will be no more pain. No more pain, no more suffering, no more sorrow, no more tears, and disability will be seen to have a purpose in God's, in God's plan. Obviously, all four of those points, we could probably spend the next two hours unpacking all of those, but those, I think, are four key point, theological points to understand about how we think about disability.

Scott Rae: Yeah, Chris, that's really helpful, especially the way you framed that around those four main theological principles. Let me make it maybe a little more pointed follow-up. Uh-

Chris Ralston: Sure.

Scott Rae: You, you ask, you ask the question in one of your articles that I read on this. You, you ask: What's the point of my disability? [lips smack] So gi-

Chris Ralston: Right

Scott Rae: ... Given that, at the least, given that, God allows disability to exist-

Scott Rae: ... How do you answer that question of what's, what's the point of my disability?

Chris Ralston: Sure. Sure. And I think the f- the-- I think my answer to that is twofold. I think one is there's an overarching point, and then there's a lot of other... And then there are n- a number of other points that may apply in some cases and not others. So here's what I'm getting at. I think ultimately, the point of disability, of God permitting it and allowing it, at the very least, is to bring glory to Him, to glorify God. So the question is: how do we glorify God, particularly in the context of disability? Well, here are some of the ways, and this is not ex- this is not necessarily exhaustive, but at least some of the ways that we glorify God is we glorify God through things like complete dependence upon Him. We glorify God when we love, unconditionally. We glorify God when we allow His strength and His power to shine in our weaknesses. And we refu-- we also glorify God when we refuse to bow down to our culture's ideals like ideals of health and beauty and productivity. Disability, among other things, call the... Is a, is a, is really a condemnation of the-- our culture's idolization of perfection, beauty, and health, and form, and function, and productivity, or at least can be. So these are just a few of the ways in which we glorify God. I think I mentioned unconditional love and acceptance. I think of my friends, Gary and Debbie, from church, from my... The church that we go to, and, they, recently lost their adult son, who about seventeen years ago was severely, brain injured, had a, had a severe traumatic brain injury- ... In a car a- in a car accident, and he was left with some really severe disabilities, that basically required twenty-four-hour care around the clock. They cared for him faithfully for seventeen years-

Scott Rae: Wow!

Chris Ralston: ... Until he recently passed away, about maybe two weeks ago, I think it was. I think of-- when I think of unconditional love and acceptance and affirming the dignity of all human life, no matter how seemingly weak or imperfect, they come to mind immediately. And so really, a shout-out to them, 'cause at some point, they'll be listening to this [chuckles] . But also, just a affirmation of, [clears throat] that is one way in which God glorifies Himself through disability, when we learn... Also, when we learn to depend upon God, things like that. Now, in some cases, disabilities can provide opportunity for growth and virtue, it can provide opportunity for service, and it can even provide opportunity to share the gospel. For Gary and Debbie, for example, it opened up opportunities for them. I wanna be careful with those last couple of things though, because I don't want to leave the impression that disability is just something instrumental- ... That it, that-- to say that the only thing that people with disabilities are good for-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Chris Ralston: ... Is to help others grow in virtue. [chuckles] But there certainly are some cases where that can happen. But I think above all, the point of disability, of why would God allow this? It has to do with His glory, with honoring, bringing glory and honoring to Him, because it's in His... As we know, for example, from one of my favorite passages of Second Corinthians twelve, nine and ten, we know that God's strength shows up in our weaknesses.

Scott Rae: Amen.

Chris Ralston: And that is where His gl- that is where His glory becomes most evident.

Scott Rae: So help us think about this a little bit further, biblically, if you will.

Chris Ralston: Sure.

Scott Rae: And by the way, that story was beautiful about your friends and just their faithfulness. What a testimony to the world-

Chris Ralston: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Of just the value of just human life and- ... Loving God and loving others. I mean, wow, that's-

Chris Ralston: Right

Scott Rae: ... That's awesome.

Chris Ralston: Yeah.

Scott Rae: Help, help us understand how resurrection and future resurrection helps us understand the point of disability today, and just how we think about disabilities.

Chris Ralston: Sure, sure. So a couple of thoughts on that. I think the first thing I would say, and again, and I mentioned this before, but that, [clears throat] one thing that's really important about understanding that in the resurrection, however we cash this out, Scripture doesn't obviously give us a lot of details about what the resurrected eternal state will look like. But what we do-- we do know enough from Scripture, though, to know that there will be no more pain, there will be no more sorrow. As Second Corinthians four:seventeen tells us, "Our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that will far outweigh them all." so our future glory will surpa- will surpass any challenges or suffering or disability that we in- experience in this life, which is not to sugarcoat or minimize-

Scott Rae: Sure

Chris Ralston: ... You know, the reality of what disability is in this life or can be in this life, but it is simply to say that our future glory will surpass that, and that is a glorious hope that we have from Scripture. [clears throat] So what we know from Scripture is... What we do know from Scripture is we have promises in multiple passages, throughout Scripture, that we will have a trans... That we will all have a transformed, glorified body and mind. And again, Scripture doesn't elaborate a whole lot on what that looks like and feels like and what that's gonna be like, but it-- that does give us real hope that disability will be transformed, and it will be redeemed.... The other thing that I think is, that I like to talk about is the fact that disability will forever be a part of the testimony, [inhales] that, for example, in my life, my disability will always be a part of the, my testimony of how God worked graciously in my life. And again, I return back to 2 Corinthians 12:9 and 10, which has kind of, [clears throat] which for me, has kinda become a theme verse in my life. But that's something I will always be able to point to and say: Look at how God worked in my life. For other people, they may have others-- other people will have other stories, but for me, that will be part of my story. And so I think what I would argue, and again, so much to unpack here, but I would argue that in a non-theistic universe, disability really doesn't have any point.

Scott Rae: Good point.

Chris Ralston: But in a theistic, in a theistic, in a specifically Christian universe, disability does have a point, and that is not the end of the story that God is writing. Instead, it's just the beginning.

Scott Rae: So Chris, let me, let me dig a little deeper on that.

Chris Ralston: Sure.

Scott Rae: In fact, I love with the way you put it in one of your articles. You say that: "Healing is coming, we just don't know the delivery date."

Chris Ralston: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: I think that's a, that's a great word. But here, maybe this is the question directly: Are you anticipating that in the resurrection, when you meet the Lord, that you will be healed of your disabilities?

Chris Ralston: So the short answer is, yes, I do. Now, again, obviously, as I mentioned just a moment ago, there's a lot of details we don't know about what that looks like and feels like, and, you know, 'cause Scripture, yep, points to a glorious hope, but it doesn't fill out a lot of the details. But the short answer is, yes, I do believe that I will be fully healed. There are, [clears throat] obviously, there are different views about what it means to say that someone will be healed of their disability in the resurrection or in the eternal state. There's basically two main views that are out there. One is, or what might be called the traditional view, which is that disability will be completely removed, erased, eliminated, or reversed in the resurrection. The idea being there that disability is one, I guess, result of sin and the Fall, and therefore, if sin and the Fall are gonna be reversed in the eschaton, therefore, disability will be as well. [clears throat] so the idea there is, there will be no wheelchairs, no scooters, no nothing like that in heaven, [chuckles] right? There's another view, the more recent view, that argues [clears throat] that although disability will be redeemed and transformed, there's gonna... You know, there won't be pain or discomfort. Everybody agrees on that. Some would argue that persons who had disabilities in this life may still, in some sense, retain sort of a mark or a, some kind of mark of the disability that they had in this life. So, for example, f- maybe somebody with, who had Down syndrome in this life might still have some of those same distinctive facial features, in the eternal state or that kind of thing. So that-- so this view is driven in part by the view that many of the conditions that we currently, that we refer to as disability, might better be thought of as more like human variations, normal human variations. And it's a... But, but I think it's also especially driven by the desire to avoid the stigmatizing people with disabilities, as having just something, a problem that just needs to be fixed in the, in the eschaton. For my part, I, for myself, I tend to le-- I probably lean a little more toward the first view, you know, that disability will be fully reversed, eradicated, and so forth in the, in the es- in the eternal state. I don't believe that I'll be using crutches or a wheelchair [chuckles] to get around. In fact, I have this really fun fantasy of playing football with Gabriel and the saints. [laughing] And, you know, telling T- you know, telling Gabriel to go deep, and, uh-

Scott Rae: I love it

Chris Ralston: ... See what happens, see what happens with that. But I have, so I have real hope for that I'm gonna be able to jump and run and play and be free of pain. So in that sense, I do believe I'll be fully healed. I am open to the other view as well, in the sense that if we understand that to mean that there may, although may, there may still be something that you can look at and say, "Yeah, that person had a disability," nevertheless, there won't be pain or suffering or discrimination or oppression or any of those kind of things. So in the eternal state, I would argue we're gonna be complete in our joy and our fellowship with God and with one another. The disability that we experienced in this life, as I mentioned before, will be part of our testimony to God's gracious activity in our lives, and, but I-- and I do believe there will be both a continuity and a discontinuity between our life in, between this life and what our, what we're like in that, in the eternal state. Just as Jesus still bore the marks of his crucifixion, and yet his, h- and yet he had a glorified body, and, I think there's gonna be some kind of parallel there with for us in the eternal state.

Sean McDowell: That's really helpful to lay out those two views. I'm with you, that I lean more towards the first view, and the second view you kind of hinted at at the end, you know, Jesus maintained his wounds-... And I guess, you know, obviously, this is part of the debate, but the two obvious pushbacks to that would be, there's a difference between a wound and a disability.

Chris Ralston: Right.

Sean McDowell: And Jesus is clearly a unique case-

Chris Ralston: Right

Sean McDowell: ... That I'm always [chuckles] hesitant to say, "Well, that happened with Jesus,"-

Chris Ralston: [chuckles] Therefore-

Sean McDowell: ... "so that'll happen with me."

Chris Ralston: Right, exactly.

Sean McDowell: Are there other biblical passages that people point to, or is it more just kinda theologizing based on our understanding of God and His character?

Chris Ralston: There may be other passages that I'm not remem- thinking of at the moment. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: Sure. Sure.

Chris Ralston: But I think it's, in general, just, thinking through, you know, given what we know about God and the way He has created human beings, what might some of the implications of that be for the eternal state? And then also, I'd add that I think what drives, what drives that view, though, I think it's largely the concern that we not draw unwarranted conclusions about disability based on what we think... Based on simply thinking that disability is nothing but a problem to be fixed, [chuckles] in the eternal state.

Sean McDowell: So I have a-

Chris Ralston: I mean, so it has, so it has to do with how we think. I think what's really driving that is a concern for how do we think about disability, and then what are the implications of that for how we treat people with disabilities in the life of the church, and in the c- and in our communities, and in our culture?

Sean McDowell: Which is a wonderful motivation, to be sure that we're not [chuckles] just saying, "Well, this is the result of the fall," and not treating somebody with the full dignity and value they have, despite any disability. We don't always do that well, so I love that that drives it. I'm wondering, I haven't read any of this literature at all, so you can tell me if this is just crazy. But I do hear, kind of in discussions about critical theory, I hear people defining themselves by their disability, like it's essential to who they are, and it's kind of bigoted and mistaken for somebody to try to change their core identity. And some of that is driven by kind of a rejection of a norm, so to speak. Does that have anything to do with these conversations, or am I just off base in bringing that into the theological discourse about disability?

Chris Ralston: [clears throat] well, I think that there is... I think that is present in some of, some of the conversations. Certainly, that's, that's, certainly that is in the background- ... Of these conversations. However, there is quite a range in the literature- ... And the theol- the theologians, that I've read and interacted with, tend to be very serious about taking seriously the realities of disability, and also as well as the realities of human nature. You know, that there is a norm to human nature. I think the concern is more, as I said, that we not draw unwarranted conclusions. [chuckles] you know, the... So the concern really is to be careful about how we think about disability, both in this life and the next, so that we're not missing out on it, these things like our important obligations toward people with disabilities, to integrate a, people with disability into the life of the church, to seek not only inclusion, but also belonging, those kinds of things. And that, and that some of the negative ways that people with disabilities have been treated have been often driven by some of these, ideas about disability that it's merely a problem or sort of a parenthesis, [chuckles] if you will, in God's... That it doesn't really, that there's no place. I think the concern is to push back against the idea that there's no place for disability in God's overall plan of redemption, and- ... And, you know, that He, that He's working, if that makes sense, so.

Sean McDowell: It does, yeah.

Chris Ralston: So yeah, so it's-

Sean McDowell: What a painful thing for somebody to feel like they don't have a place- [chuckles]

Chris Ralston: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... In God's redemption.

Chris Ralston: Yeah, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Just to hear you say that, like pains me.

Scott Rae: Yeah, that's really helpful.

Chris Ralston: Right. Yeah. And the reality is, historically, it's often been the case that people with disability have sort of been written off. Especially, this is especially the case where there's been intellectual and cognitive disability in the mix. That's been very common. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: Chris, one of, one of the ways I think you-

Chris Ralston: [clears throat]

Scott Rae: ... You combat that danger pretty well is that you suggest in some of your, some of the stuff you've written, that disability can actually be viewed as a calling. Can you, can you explain a little bit more what you mean by that? 'Cause that I don't think is, [clears throat] you know, sort of fits into some of the traditional ways that we understand the notion of calling.

Chris Ralston: Right. Yeah, and it can be very counterintuitive. And first of all, before I get into that, just to give credit where credit is due, is due, a couple ideas that I'm gonna mention, I draw from a philosopher by the name of Rick Langer, who's written an excellent article on this issue.

Sean McDowell: We know that guy around here.

Scott Rae: Yeah, we've had- [chuckles]

Chris Ralston: Yeah. Ex- he's, you know, he's, he- you might, you might have seen him around. [chuckles] Yeah. So yeah, he is at Biola. So yeah, Rick Langer has written a wonderful article on this issue that he actually published with, when I worked with Johnny and Brent, he, published this paper as part of a curriculum that we developed. So just giving credit where credit is due. A couple things that Rick mentioned, and that is that, if we think about the nature of callings now, before we get to the issue of disability, let's think about what are callings? What are they? And he points out that callings come to us unbidden. That is to say, that God calls us, we respond to His callings. And that, as you mentioned, Scott, is really contrary to our contemporary understandings of calling, that's something that we find or that we seek after, that we, that we're, we're the ones who initiate. But really, more often, biblically speaking, calling are things that come to people, whether they want it or not. [chuckles] ... Whether they're looking for it or not, [chuckles] in many cases. Secondly, callings can be, can be difficult, and they can be inconvenient, right? I mean, they can, they can often be experienced as impositions. If you think about the life of the prophets in the Old Testament, they had callings on them, but they weren't necessarily very pleasant callings. [chuckles] but in every case, whatever the nature of the calling, whether it be... However it's experienced, the third important thing is that, you've heard the- we've all heard the expression where, "Where God calls, God provides."

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.

Chris Ralston: So God, whatever God calls us to, He provides us with the way to fulfill that calling. He provides, He calls us with what is needed to live out that calling. [chuckles] And so now moving... So now, when we get to the issue of disability, we can start to think, it- that gives us a framework to start to think about disabilities as sort of the site or the locus of God's gracious activity in our lives. And [clears throat] as I've, as I've mentioned, [clears throat] excuse me, as I've mentioned several times,

Chris Ralston: a way... That disability has now become a way in which God can bring glory to Himself in and through us. So we're all called to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, as the, familiar phrase from the Westminster Shorter Catechism, right? So, so I would argue and suggest that life with disability can be one way in which we do that, one way in which we glorify God. So again, just to reiterate-

Scott Rae: Yeah, that's helpful

Chris Ralston: ... As I've mentioned several times, the point is not to sugarcoat the realities of living with a disability. But the point rather, that living with a disability and fulfilling God's calling on our lives are not c- are not necessarily contradictory. They can, in fact, be one and the same thing.

Scott Rae: Chris, one... That's really helpful. Yeah. One, one final question for you.

Chris Ralston: Sure.

Scott Rae: You mentioned, I think a really helpful analogy, where you mentioned the Japanese practice of fixing broken ceramics to be, to be very helpful in thinking about-

Chris Ralston: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Disability.

Chris Ralston: Yes.

Scott Rae: Spell out what you mean by that analogy.

Chris Ralston: So in the Japanese practice of Kintsugi, So this is the practice is called Kintsugi, and in that practice, what happens is that broken pieces of ceramic are essentially, glued back together or put back together by using a gold filling. And so what happens is the restored product, the restored piece of ceramic, ends up reflecting both the characteristics of the original and the artistry of the, of the Kintsugi master, the one who did the art of the putting the pieces back together. So what I love about that analogy is that similarly, when God graciously works in and through our lives, and in, and in particular through the lives of people with disabilities, His power, His strength, His glory, and His majesty shine through the, what might seem like cracks in our lives, right? The seemingly broken pieces that He has put together. So His handiwork shows up in the cracks of our lives, and what ends up happening is that He receives the glory. So when I first read about that, about the Japanese practice of Kintsugi, it just, it occurred to me that that was a really apt analogy or metaphor for what God does in the lives of people with disability, as well as all of us, obviously, who are being... Who have been redeemed or are being redeemed, by Christ. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: Yeah. Thank you, Chris. That's really-

Chris Ralston: You're welcome.

Scott Rae: That's sort of, that's sort of a drop-the-mic moment to-

Chris Ralston: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: ... To end on. We wanna think a little bit more, too, as... And we'll, Sean, we've a- we've talked about addressing this further in more detail-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... At another time on some of the implications this has for our life in the church together.

Chris Ralston: Yeah.

Scott Rae: But Chris, all of this-

Chris Ralston: All of these are huge topics. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: This is really helpful.

Chris Ralston: Thank you.

Scott Rae: So appreciate, so appreciate you sharing your story, your vulnerability, and say-

Chris Ralston: You're prayer.

Scott Rae: Just sharing a lot about how God's worked, in your, in your life to show His grace and to further sanctify you. So this has been super helpful, and we will put a link to a couple of your publications that-

Chris Ralston: Okay

Scott Rae: ... I think the ones that you did from the Henry Center at Trinity.

Chris Ralston: Uh-huh. Sure.

Scott Rae: We'll, we'll, we'll put a link to those so our listeners can have a little more access to some of your work.

Chris Ralston: Appreciate that.

Scott Rae: So-

Chris Ralston: Thank you

Scott Rae: ... Much appreciated. Great to have you with us. Great to, great to re-

Chris Ralston: Thank you so much

Scott Rae: ... Great, great to reconnect with you.

Chris Ralston: Thank you so much. It was great to be with you.

Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast, Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online in spiritual formation, marriage and family therapy, apologetics, philosophy, Old Testament, New Testament, pastoral ministry, theology. Sean, I don't think I'm missing any.

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: That's most of them. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation with our friend, Dr. Chris Ralston, give us a rating on your podcast app, and please share it with a friend. And join us Friday for our weekly cultural update. Thanks so much for listening, and in the meantime, remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]