What parts of the world are the most challenging for believers today? How has the relative comfort of American Christianity impacted spiritual growth, compared to communities experiencing persecution? What habits could American Christian adopt to more regularly remember and support our persecuted brothers and sisters around the world? We'll answer these questions and more with our guest, Brian Orme, CEO of Global Christian Relief.

Brian Orme is CEO of Global Christian Relief, a non-profit organization dedicated to serving the persecuted church around the world. He founded ChurchLeaders.com, served as Senior Editor at Outreach magazine, and spent over a decade in pastoral ministry—equipping churches for both local and global impact.



Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] What's the global landscape of persecution when it comes to the Christian Church today around the world, and why should that matter to American Christians? Biblically, what role does persecution or suffering play in shaping authentic Christian faith? And what habits, what- how can believers more, become more actively engaged in supporting the persecuted church beyond just prayer? Spec- what specific habits might we develop in order to regularly remember and support persecuted believers? These are some of the questions we'll address today. There's a whole lot more that we'll be talking about, too. Our special guest today is Brian Orme, the CEO of Global Christian Relief, a wonderful organization that serves the persecuted church around the world. I'm your host, Scott Rae.

Sean McDowell: I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.

Scott Rae: This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Brian, so happy to have you with us. I love the work that you all are doing, and just great stuff. And you've, you know, you've been sort of the field person in a lot of ways for Global Christian Relief now for some time, so we'll hear a little bit more about that. But first, if you would just summarize what you think is the... What's the global sort of condition of persecution today as it relates to the church?

Brian Orme: Yeah, Scott and Sean, thanks again so much for having me. Thrilled to be in this conversation with both of you, and I just, Like, as we look at the landscape for Christian persecution, I think what's really interesting is that it is growing and intensifying globally, and really has been escalating for the last 10 years or so for, from a number of factors. But I d- also feel like there's a lack of awareness around that. So, like, in many regions, e- including, like, India, and you see nationalism rising, there's still aftershocks of the Arab Spring, you know, the rise of extremism across Sub-Saharan Africa. You could even think through, like, China's digital dictatorship or the resurgence of the Taliban. All across the world, Christians are still under threat, and it's increasing, it's spreading, and yet I think the everyday believer, like, including myself for a long time, is just, was just not aware of that.

Scott Rae: So tell us, w- give us in a sentence or two, why should this matter to American Christians?

Brian Orme: It is, and this, I'm convicted of this, Scott, like, it is critical for the Church to care for itself. I think it's, it's one of the markers of genuine faith, is to see our suffering brothers and sisters and to support them, care for them, pray for them. So I think it's, it's intrinsically woven into our DNA as believers, and so it's critical for us in the American Church to have our eyes open, you know, to this issue and to step into it with our persecuted family.

Scott Rae: Now, you've spent a lot of time on the field, in some really interesting places. So give us one story from your work in the field with persecuted believers that's reshaped how you view this.

Brian Orme: Yeah, and to be honest to it has really reshaped my personal faith. So it's a longer story, but I've gone through a season where I was in ministry, wrestled with doubts, and God really used the testimonies of the persecuted Church to quicken, inspire, and enrich my faith. And so it's kind of like a- it's almost like a selfish desire, like, I want other believers to experience that and to be empowered by it. But one story that really sticks out, and it's over the last couple of years in Nigeria, around the Middle Belt, and working with believers who have lost everything and have been pushed out to IDP camps. And these believers were attacked. Many of them were abducted, women were forced into to marriages with extremists, lost loved ones. It's, it's devastating, unthinkable to see what happened, but sitting with someone like Suzanne, who her father was killed... And her story, it's, it's a tough story. Like, she basically was held at gunpoint by these extremists, and they were forcing her and telling her they, that she needed to deny her faith, to convert to Islam, or they were going to kill her, and she kept refusing to do it. And they eventually shot her, left her there for dead.

Scott Rae: Gosh.

Brian Orme: And, and it was a short time after that, she was getting carried by others from the village to, so that they could bury her, and she felt some kind of pain in her leg from a thorn, and she woke up, but she had lost her eyesight. So she was alive. They rushed her to the hospital. Today, she's lost, you know, sight in both her eyes. But when you sit with Suzanne, as I have a couple of times in Nigeria now, and listen to her faith and hear her explain how she's kind of come- how she's come full circle to forgive those who killed her father and attempted to kill her- ... And how she still has the joy of the Lord, still has... I mean, the tension, the trauma, it's not erased. It's still there, it's present, but yet her faith has kind of pushed forward to fill that void, to drive her forward and to allow her to keep having joy and to keep having a life that's focused on Christ. And it, to me, like, hearing those types of stories, it just, it's life-changing. It's, it's- it reminds me that this faith is a faith worth living for, but also a faith worth dying for at the same time.

Sean McDowell: Are there some significant persecution stories that many in the American Church or other parts of the West just don't hear about, yet need to?

Brian Orme: Yeah, when I think about stories that I, that I would love to see- ... Resonate with the American Church here, I think a lot of it deals with those who've left Islam to follow Jesus. And it's a really challenging step to take, and I've had the honor to meet with persecuted believers or the believers who've left Islam in places like Egypt and Pakistan, and met with them in secret places to hear their stories, and it's really... It's, it's amazing, many times how they come to faith, because it's sometimes through dreams and visions, that God will s- use that kind of to initiate their interest in seeking, and then He'll confirm that as they meet someone later who explains that, and they give their life to Christ. But they know when they give their life to Christ-... It typically means they're gonna be cut off from everyone in their family, everyone in their community, and they're gonna be pushed out, ostracized, sometimes beaten, sometimes threatened, but they're gonna lose so much. And, and talking to these believers, and I had the privilege again of talking to a number of them, in a secret place in Egypt, and listening to their stories of being baptized in a secret place, and what that meant to them, and how they found their life meaning through Christ, and were willing to give it all up, is incredibly powerful. And I do-- from the different experts and the field partners we talk with, the Muslim background believe in church is one of the fastest growing churches around the world, and yet, you know, most people, you don't read it in the news, of course, we don't hear about it because it is so far underground, and it's, it's secretive, and it's difficult and challenging. But in many parts, too, like in places like Pakistan, believers that leave Islam, they're kind of left homeless, because if they go to the Christian church in Pakistan, there's too many blasphemy laws, and that church would be in incredible danger to welcome them in. And they obviously can't go back to the Muslim world, and so they're kind of stuck in between, and have to have this very small circle of friends to go through, and it's, it's really difficult and challenging, yet God still shows up.

Sean McDowell: In some ways, you might answer my question at the latter part of that, but I've, I've probably interviewed four or five former radical Muslims from Saudi Arabia, from Egypt- ... From Iran, and seeing something supernatural, typically a dream or a vision, and what it costs them is the thread that is almost always there. But I've, I've tried to figure out, are these isolated instances, or is there a larger trend taking place we're not hearing about? And it sounds like you're saying these are far more significant than we may even know.

Brian Orme: They are. Like, I-- from the conversations that we have across the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa, I mean, it's, it's a growing phenomenon- ... Of Chris- of, you know, those who are in Islam, seeing dreams and visions, c- giving their lives to Christ. And there's actually some organizations that are starting to build networks around these believers to help support them- ... And train them and guide them, because they are also the best ones to go back into their dangerous context to disciple other Muslim background believers as well, too. But it's definitely a trend. I mean, similar to the trend we see in India, where God is using healing in a really strong way. It's like, you'll-- if you go to India, which, you might have, like, you meet with believers there, and you hear so many stories of those who have had an illness in their family, nothing worked. They, you know, finally kind of resorted to say, "Let's throw our hands up and talk to the Christians," or they go to a church, they're invited to a church. There's healing, and they just radically give their lives to Christ right then, and then they're stuck in this Hindu or, in a traditional, you know, religious belief community that doesn't accept it whatsoever.

Scott Rae: [lips smack] Yeah. Brian, we've had a handful of students who've come to faith out of Hinduism, and they've been in our philosophy program, and, you know, getting to know them, we, when we talk to them, they can't go home. Um- ... Several of them said, "I, if I, if I'm around, if I'm around my community that I grew up in, I'll probably be killed." and we just-

Brian Orme: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... You know, w- it's just so hard for, I think for us to imagine, people g- actually giving up everything- ... In order, in order to follow Jesus. So that, it sort of raises the, it raises the question: What does the phenomena of the persecuted church teach us about the cost of discipleship?

Brian Orme: Yeah, I think it's, it's pretty bold, and like you were saying, to sit with someone and hear their story, and t- and to see that they've left everything behind. I mean, it's, it's, again, a powerful reminder of, like, the origin of our faith and the treasure of our faith, which is Jesus. And I think that when you see that in such a visceral context, it reminds us, that, "Oh, my goodness, this is, this is why we believe," that it's not because we want to have, I mean, everything work out in our lives. Obviously, God cares about the details, but many times, especially when you talk to believers in these other really difficult and challenging countries to follow Jesus, it's, they're giving up so much. They're giving up so much freedom, so much independence, and they're inviting persecution, and yet they're still doing it because Jesus is the treasure. And, and I think there's a sense of, like, I really do believe that God is going to use the persecuted church in some way as a factor to drive revival here in the US. So I think those types of stories, connecting us as a global body, but seeing that resilience, and we're getting reminded of the treasure of our faith, is something that will, again, drive us to a greater faith as well.

Sean McDowell: Given the relative comfort of American [chuckles] Christianity, how would you compare and contrast communities that have experienced persecution with maybe just kind of the American Church as a whole?

Brian Orme: Yeah, it's, it's always an interesting one, Sean, just 'cause it's, it's-- there's a sense of, like, our goal and my, and my, you know, passion is not to make people feel-

Sean McDowell: Of course [laughing]

Brian Orme: ... Guilty or shame, even when we invite them into this story of, like, connecting to Christians who are suffering for their faith. It's, it's really to try to point to the hope. But there is stark differences. I mean, they're, they're, they're there completely, and I think there's, there's a couple caveats. One is, you know, the, those who are persecuted aren't perfect either. So there's still struggles in, you know, what, underground churches, there's still tension, you know, there's still pride and conflicts that they have to deal with. So I just want to say from the onset, like, those who are being persecuted for their faith, and we shouldn't... You know, Jesus is still the hero of the story. We're still imperfect. But I would say that as you look and sit with these communities, like meeting with, Bible smugglers on the Iraqi-Iran border and having a worship service with this underground church, and seeing their lives and what each one of them have given, there's just this resilience of, like, "We are all in because our lives are at stake." And there's a different mentality that comes with that, a belonging, of conviction, of courage. Again, it doesn't pull out the sin. There's still things that show up, but there's a sense of, like, we-... We are committed to this together. And I think sometimes, again, in the American church, we don't have those same types of threats or conditions, so everything can feel optional, [clears throat] and we can obviously fall more into that consumer mindset of what works for me, rather than this is a life or death decision to be a part of this community, and so we're all in. And if we can pull some more of that in, that we're willing to do that, I think, again, like, that's the kind of, again, the early DNA of the church, of like, "We are in this together. This is worth dying for." How would, how would our communities be shaped if that was our perspective?

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think you, It sounds like at the core of this is this sort of fundamental belief that they're following Jesus because this is true.

Brian Orme: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And this is the thing that best comports with reality. And whether that truth is gained through, you know, reading a Bible that somebody smuggled into your country, or through a dream, or a vision, or a healing, it sounds like that's really powerful at the, at the core of that. Would that be a fair statement?

Brian Orme: Yeah, I think that's totally fair. Totally fair.

Scott Rae: Now, let me pursue this a little further about sort of the impact on American Christians. So what... I take it there are a handful of pretty fairly common misconceptions that you hear fairly regularly from American Christians about the persecuted church. And I, and I wonder how these misconceptions actually can get in the way of ge- a genuine sense of empathy and taking action, and prayer and giving, you know, what we would do in service of the persecuted church.

Brian Orme: Yeah, there are a number of misconceptions. I mean, the first one is that it's, it's not happening as large or as widespread as it actually is. So I think the first thing is that people think it's an isolated issue, or it's happening in just a few spots, or I mean, it kind of, you know, went through the Middle East with ISIS, but now it's relatively okay. And I think there's a sense of like it's, it's minimized, many times. That's, and that's probably the biggest misconception. The second one is, [lips smack] I mean, again, there's, you know, not to politicize things, is a larger discussion, but there's been so much focus on helping those here inside the US, that sometimes it-- there's like an either/or, like we either need to help here and, or, I mean, and let them take care of themselves, or, you know what I mean, or it's like somebody will say, "Oh, it's all outside, it's international work." But I think it's just a, it's a false dichotomy. We can help everywhere there's, there's needed... Everywhere there is, needs, we can step into that. And that doesn't mean because we're helping the persecuted church, that we're neglecting things here as well, too. So our drive is always to say, "Hey, we should be doing those things as Christians that are regularly caring about our communities, our neighborhoods, all those things." But this is also a unique opportunity for us to walk through and be obedient to these passages and scripture, that God calls us to look on those who are suffering in the family of God with great compassion and action. And, and again, it's the genuine marker of our faith, is to care for the body of Christ. It's how the world sees the light. And so I think this is a unique way for us to do it, not just in a small context, but in a global perspective, to deeply care.

Scott Rae: Is so- is some of this just too pain- too painful- ... For American Christians to face, and it's just easier to block it out and, you know, rationalize it away, as opposed to genuinely coming to grips with how our brothers and sisters are being treated in other parts of the world?

Brian Orme: I think it is. And I think it's, it's one of those things where we all know, like, suffering, we want to look away from it, even from our own lives or nearby. We don't want to see that because it reminds us that we could experience something like that we could have loss like that. And, and again, even just the fact that some of the stories are, they're devastating stories to read, there's no doubt about it. But I think the surprise element of that, and maybe even some truth to the scripture of saying, "It's better to go to a house of mourning," like you-- it shows you about the brevity of life, reminds you of the commitment, I mean, that we have in Christ, but there's also this great hope and joy within that I think that's the most surprising element, is people think: I don't want to engage those who are persecuted. I don't want to hear about these things. I just want to feel bad. And there's a sense of like... Well, you might feel bad about the context, 'cause it's rough. There's no doubt, and there's no way around that. But the surprising element is, when you sit and have tea, and listen, and pray, and worship, and read the stories of these believers, like, the overwhelming, characteristic that you find within them is joy. And, and I've laughed more with, you know, meeting with persecuted families who've gone through so much, than I have with just American families here. There's just a lot of joy connected to persevering and being persecuted for the name of Jesus, too. So I think that's the surprising element, for sure.

Sean McDowell: Now, now why is that? If I can lean into that a little bit. Why would there be more joy? Like, you would expect more resilience. You'd expect-

Brian Orme: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Maybe, you know, some of the other factors you talked about, but why more joy?

Brian Orme: Yeah, I... And I've thought about this a lot, too, and I think a big part of it is, like, there is a, an intrinsic joy when you suffer for Christ. It's kind of like, I use the analogy of sometimes, like, the show Survivor, you know what I mean? Like, people go on that show, and in a small way, they're suffering together, and so there's this connection that they have because they're all suffering in the same way. And I think the same thing, what Paul talks about, like, I mean, joining in the sufferings of Christ, is like there is a beauty to that that's really mysterious and complex, but it's, it's there, and it comes out. And so I think there's a sense of, like, all the other cares, and stresses, and anxieties kind of get washed away in comparison to standing and knowing that you've stood strong for the name of Jesus. And so, again, it's, it's incredible and hard to explain. You know- ... I'm sure there's a lot of theological complexities that go into it, but I would just say the bottom line is that, you know, those who suffer for Jesus, there's a sense of like there is, there's a joy that's hard to describe, that comes out of that.

Scott Rae: Yeah, Sean, I have to admit that, you know, I don't... I have a lot of empathy for p-... People who I think are genuinely being persecuted, and their life's on the line. As opposed to people in the West who feel like they are under assault. Um- And I just, I just, I find, I find it hard 'cause I, you know, I'm familiar with a lot of these stories of people who are, you know, who are risking their lives every day to follow Christ faithfully. And I used to have, I used to have more trouble myself, having empathy for people who are in basically comfortable places where Christianity is still the sort of the normative religious experience for people, feeling like they are, they are being persecuted for their faith, sort of in a way that's analogous to what's happening in other parts of the world. Brian, I suspect you see a lot of that, too. How do, how do you deal with that? Because, I mean, I would... I mean, I don't doubt that there are people who are, you know, who are being challenged for their faith in here in the West, but I just, I tend not to have a lot of sympathy for them.

Brian Orme: Yeah, it's, it's-- that's a rough one, Scott. I think the approach is, obviously, God cares about all the details of our lives, for sure. But I think when we-- when... And I have the same kind of feeling, is there are definitely people who are standing up for their faith and many of them who are, you know, receiving pushback or insults or don't get a job, you mean, and things like that are... That's present. You know what I mean? So there's no doubt, but it's not at the same scale, and there's not the same things that are at stake, as we see in places like the underground church in Afghanistan. And it's-- and I think sometimes, again, like you said, like it's hard to unpack that, you know what I mean? 'Cause our experiences feel, you know what I mean, they're heavy to us at the time, too. But I do think that's why the opportunity to share of these stories can help us put some of those things in perspective, where it's like, "Oh, yeah, I can, I can have more courage to handle this in my life here, because of the stories and connection I'm reading." Or I can put things in a better context globally and what God is doing in the church, and so it changes the perspective that I have here. So I have found out that it's not helpful, like, for me to debate those things, 'cause oftentimes people that do that might even have, like, a different kind of agenda to what they're talking through and what they see. But my goal is always to point to what God is doing in the global church and the need that we have for one another to connect, and even that John 17 prayer, that we can be one as He is one. Like, that's what I'm passionate about, is connecting those stories to strengthen the Church and the Kingdom, even across borders, across countries.

Sean McDowell: You've started to kind of do this in some sense, but maybe just practically speaking, how can American believers, and those just even outside of America, in safe places that have freedoms and don't experience persecution for their faith, become more actively engaged in supporting, persecuted Christians, including prayer, but even beyond prayer?

Brian Orme: Yeah, no, I think that's-- it's a great question, Sean, and I think part of it is like the first step is like, you know, the goal in engaging, you mean, the suffering church around the world is again, not to, not because we need something to, how do I say this? Like, to feel better about our faith. You know what I mean? It's really about connecting to the Kingdom of God in a, in a really meaningful way. And, and a couple of things that I usually tell people to start out with is, one, is to read the news, the world news, through the lens of the global church. And so-

Sean McDowell: That's a great idea.

Brian Orme: When you're reading things and you're thinking through what's going on around the world, is to read that through, how does this impact- ... Believers in Egypt? How does this impact, you know, believers in Pakistan or Afghanistan? And to let that drive you to be curious, to learn more, and to dig into, and to pray. But I also would say, like, it's stepping into those stories on a regular basis, and there's, you know, we're one outlet of a number of different ministries who support the persecuted. And we often say this, that there probably needs to be thousands more because the issue is so big. And our concern is less about which organization you connect with, but there-- say, connect with ones, you know, go to their website, follow them on social media, stay connected to what's happening around the world, so you can be aware of urgent needs, so you can connect to long-form stories, and just put yourself in that stream to engage those stories. And I do believe even just that, can really change and empower your faith. And then I do think, again, like, giving. Like, there's a sense that, to support, to pray and to support, that our giving really puts action behind our compassion. And so, again, find-- you know, i- again, this is not a plea to give to us, of course. Like, I think it's just a matter of, like, in general, we know that giving... We're called to be givers, and one way that we can support our suffering brothers and sisters is by giving them and allowing them to move further in their freedom or to get the resources they need to survive. And I picture it this way, too, Sean, it's kind of like in our local church setting, it's pretty natural if someone who you're close to in a small group or in your church that has a need, that you would respond to it. And I would just say, like, be willing and ready on the global scale to look at your family the same way and pray through your giving. You know what I mean? So it doesn't have to-- it shouldn't be guilt-driven, transactional. It should be prayerfully processed to go, "God, where are you asking me to help the suffering church? Where can you use the funds that I want to give right now and just be a, be a conduit for that?" so I would say, again, pray, give, read, and be intelligent about it. And, and the last thing I'll say this is pray that God would give you a specific region or country or people- ... To place on your heart to learn more about, and become an expert in that area and be prayerful in that, and share those stories with others.

Scott Rae: Yeah, Brian, let me take that just a step further and give you a chance to, blow your own horn for a Global Christian Relief. [chuckles] What, what are some- what are-... What are one or two things that you all provide specifically to help people stay in touch, with the persecuted church?

Brian Orme: Yeah, the main way that we do it is definitely through our social media platforms and our email. And you can go directly to our site, gcrelief.org, and you'll get a pop-up to sign up for our regular emails. And we, our passion with that is to try to provide really strong value to connect you with the stories of the persecuted. And again, we do a lot of video work, a lot of acquisition, as you said, like I'm in the field quite a bit. So one of the honors that I have is to sit with these believers and really get to know them, sometimes over multiple trips over years, and to see what God is doing, see the impact of small gifts over time for a Christian family who's been persecuted is really powerful. But we have videos, you mean, again, across YouTube and across our social. But I would just say, first thing is sign up for our newsletter, engage the site, you know, follow us on social media, and try to engage. Engage on a regular basis, whether that's weekly for some, you know what I mean, every couple of weeks, whatever it might be for your schedule, but make it part of your regular rhythm of your faith walk.

Sean McDowell: What are some of the different ways that organizations help the persecuted church? Is it working with governments? Is it financial aid? Is it safe houses and getting people out? Is it education? Is it guards that [chuckles] stand there to defend them? Like, what are the different layers of when groups go in to help that they do?

Brian Orme: Yeah, no, that's, it's-- there is a lot, and I would just say that it's... I could give a couple examples, but it really, like with our organization, we are field-driven, so we're working with local church leaders and pastors in specific persecuted contexts to find out what the church needs the most. And sometimes it's Bibles. In underground churches, they don't have access, and so getting Bibles in their languages. Sometimes it's audio Bibles in their languages because it's a culture where God is moving, and there's mainly illiterate people that are involved. It could be training and pastors, like there's a huge need that we're connecting with our partners in India because God is moving so fast in the rural regions, and people are coming to faith, and yet there's no strong leaders. And so sometimes the believer who's been there for the longest, you're, you've been there for three weeks, now you're the pastor, and [chuckles] getting them the right-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Brian Orme: ... Training and theological background is really critical as well, too. And then, again, in places like Nigeria, it is education for those Christians who've been displaced, and their children. It's trauma counseling for people who've gone through the unimaginable, so they can come out the other end and still see the glory of God in their lives. So it's, it's many different things. And again, sometimes it's emergency relief, which, happens, you know what I mean, in India and Pakistan, if there's an attack, or recently in Syria, that we can partner with the church to get the needs, and sometimes it is just, as a matter of a food kit to help a family that's displaced because of persecution to survive for a couple of months until things can settle down, and possibly they can return to their homeland, or they have to go to a next step and find an IDP or a refugee camp.

Scott Rae: Brian, that's, that's really helpful. Let, let me, let me make a plea to our listeners on this. That as soon as you, as soon as this episode is over, would you take a moment and just pray for one part of the world that experiences persecution? Brian's described several of these, the Middle East, North Korea, China, Sub-Sahara Africa. But just take a minute and pray for one part of the world where the church is under assault. And I think that way, if we, if we get, if we get all our listeners of this particular episode to do that, I think that might have a powerful impact. So, Brian, thank you so much for being with us. This is... I admit, some of this is really hard to hear. Uh- ... But there's some very encouraging stories in here, too, and we're very grateful for your leadership of group, of Global Christian Relief and for the o- for the other groups that you described who serve the persecuted church around the world. It's a, it's a fabulous ministry that you are involved in, and I know it's a hard one, but we so appreciate your commitment to it, your diligence with it, and the, you know, the staff at Global Christian Relief and other organizations like you all that have s- that have taken God's calling on their life with utter seriousness to serve the persecuted church around the world.

Brian Orme: I just-- it's an honor, Scott and Sean. Thanks so much for having me. I love the conversation around this. I love your heart for ministry and have been a, yeah, just a fan of your podcast, too. Appreciate how relevant and current and not afraid to dig into the issues that both of you guys are. So yeah, thankful for the opportunity.

Scott Rae: Well, I appreciate that, Brian, very much, and all the best to you and Global Christian Relief in the months to come.

Brian Orme: Great. God bless. Thanks, Scott. Thanks, Sean.

Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online, including master's programs in apologetics, philosophy, science and religion, spiritual formation, Old and New Testament, systematic theology, marriage and family therapy, and probably one or two that I'm forgetting, Sean.

Sean McDowell: You got it.

Scott Rae: In addition to bachelor's degrees, that we have in Bible theology and apologetics. So if you, if you want to form-- more information on that, visit biola.edu/talbot, you know, to learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation with our friend Brian Orme, give us a rating on the podcast app and share it with a friend, and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. Thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]