Biola University
How many Americans are engaging the Bible today? And in what ways? How does Bible reading affect giving to charity, life flourishing, and experience with loneliness? Sean and Scott discuss these questions, and more, by analyzing the latest report from the American Bible Society. While some of the findings are expected, quite a few are eye-opening and unexpected.
Read and download the report here.
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] What is the state of the Bible today, both in the church and the culture? What does the state of the Bible reveal about how artificial intelligence has affected people's reading of the Bible? And what is the connection between engagement with the Bible and someone flourishing in their life? Sean and I will discuss the most recent State of the Bible report put out by the American Bible Society, and all the implications it has for both individual, church, and community flourishing. I'm your host, Scott Rae.
Sean McDowell: I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.
Scott Rae: This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. So, Sean, what do... For our listeners who aren't familiar with this, what exactly is the State of the Bible report? How long has it been going on- ... And sort of what's, what's it about?
Sean McDowell: So the American Bible Society puts out an annual report about Bible engagement in America. Some of our viewers and listeners will remember last year, in 2024, we looked at the data and did our take and an update on it. What it's not is it's not about, like, doctrine alone. So if you're looking for how many people say they're Christians but don't believe in the Trinity, how many believe there's other ways to be saved besides Jesus?
Scott Rae: Right.
Sean McDowell: That's not this. This is more about Bible engagement. So how many people who read the Bible are actually stressed and anxious compared to those who don't? How many people who read the Bible are actually going to church? How many non-believers actually read the Bible? So what is Bible engagement and use in America today? That's what this study is about.
Scott Rae: Right, and how it, and how it correlates with other things that contribute to people being happy and flourishing-
Sean McDowell: Yeah, exactly
Scott Rae: ... In their lives.
Sean McDowell: Exactly.
Scott Rae: So maybe a little bit... Give us a little bit more about why it's so important to understand how the Bible's engaged, and maybe some of the different ways that the Bible's engaged in America today.
Sean McDowell: I think there's a lot of angles to this question. One thing we often still hear is that, like, Christianity is bigoted, and it's harmful to society, and evangelicals get a bad rap, some of it we've certainly brought on ourselves, and they're bad for the country and the world. This study's like, okay, let's actually look and see. Those who are Bible-engaged, and they define that a certain way, does that affect their experience of, say, being willing to forgive others? Does that mean they'll be less stressed and less anxious? Do they give more to people and are more charitable? So those are really interesting questions, number one, when I'm just speaking with non-believers who maybe have a certain view about what the Bible is. But it's also, as a Christian, I wanna know. I mean, this is the most influential book, even if you're not a Christian, that's ever been written. And we have people like Jordan Peterson saying things like, "It is the foundation of science and Western civilization." There's more and more atheists and skeptics saying, "Oh, wait a minute. We actually need a biblical kind of worldview. We need Jesus."
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: So we're seeing this resurgence and this turn back. So it helps us to actually say, all right, rather than just guessing anecdotally, how much is the Bible really shaping the lives of people in America, Christians and non-Christians? I think that's a helpful piece. But the other last thing is, and we'll get to this, is people who don't read the Bible. Is that 'cause they think the Bible's bigoted and outdated, or do they wish they read it more? The answer to that is really interesting, and we'll come to it.
Scott Rae: Yeah, we'll get to that in a few mi- in a minute. Now, we have got some pretty hard data-
Sean McDowell: Yep
Scott Rae: ... About how many, how many more people bought Bibles in 2024.
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: That's up over 20%.
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: But, you know, there's a lot of... A lot of the data is all, it's self-reported-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... About how pe- how frequently people read the Bible and what it does for them. It's, it's mostly self-reported.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Scott Rae: So w- how much stock do you put in this particular study, given that so much of it is dependent on self-reporting?
Sean McDowell: I would... The same stock I would put in any other individual study. Now, it's obvious, I mean, you look at this thing, they've spent a lot of money, researching this, and this is not just 10 people putting a poll on Twitter. They hire some leading research firms, and they produce a beautiful book. So there's, there's a lot of credibility, it sure seems-
Scott Rae: Oh, Barnea, Barna-
Sean McDowell: ... Behind this
Scott Rae: ... Barna has something to do with this, too.
Sean McDowell: Barna has something to do with it. Like, there's a lot of... It, it's a well-done study, but it's one study. And my... I don't know. I've never met anybody in my life who had researched more than my dad. He'd always be sitting at a table with stacks of articles and data and just devoured it, hours a day. And he'd always say, "Son, that's one study. You gotta compare it to others." So this was done... It, it talks about the state of the Bible in 2024, which I think reveals where we're at in 2025, 'cause a lot of studies are-
Scott Rae: Right
Sean McDowell: ... Forward-looking. But it was done in 2024, in January. Now, the latter part of 2024, for some reason, we saw a 22% jump in Bible sales. Now, will that be sustained? Why did that happen? I don't know.
Scott Rae: Right.
Sean McDowell: We just have to keep in mind this is one study, and there's other factors at play. And I'm curious, when they do the State of the Bible next year, will they pick up on that, and will things change? We'll revisit that here. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: That's right. I suspect this is gonna become an annual thing for us to do.
Sean McDowell: I enjoy it.
Scott Rae: In-
Sean McDowell: It's really interesting
Scott Rae: ... In the first quarter of every new year.
Sean McDowell: Let's do it.
Scott Rae: So let's, let's talk a little bit about how specifically people are engaging the Bible. Because there's three- he's got three categories-
Sean McDowell: Yep
Scott Rae: ... That they put out. What are those categories, and how... You know, and particularly the ones who are Bible-engaged, how are they engaging the Bible? How frequently? What does that look like?
Sean McDowell: So let me just highlight a few things that will help. They said, overall, people are interacting with the Bible a bit less than the previous year. So we've seen a little bit of a drop of Americans as a whole engaging the Bible.... Now, a few years ago, half of Americans were what they called Bible users, 50%. There was a drastic shift in our 2022 survey, which we talked about last year. Bible use tumbling by 10 points down to 40% in one year, from '21 to '22, 50% to 40%. And I remember reading that thinking, "Is this just a blip on the radar?" But they show here that that drop-off has continued, and it wasn't just a blip on the radar. Now, to my question earlier, what about those who don't read the Bible? They say more than half of American adults say they do wish they read the Bible more. Now, that tells me that people aren't reading the Bible, not 'cause they don't think it's valuable, not 'cause they don't have a positive view on it, because they're busy or they have other priorities. So they're not just hating on the Bible, they kinda wish they did. That's an opening for us.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Some other things that they say, they say they confirm a recent decline in Bible use, Scripture engagement, and church attendance. That's a fact. The percentage of in the category Bible disengaged is now at its highest point ever in the data that they've studied. So more people are in the category of not engaging the Bible than before. Now, a couple other interesting things I found is they said Black Americans leading again in Scripture engagement, which is just interesting. Why, and where does that come from, and what can we learn from Black Americans? Evangelicals are most likely to be Scripture-engaged. Zero surprise [chuckles] on that one.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: The South-
Scott Rae: That's, that's, I hope so.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, I hope so. You know, the South is the strongest, and Boomers are most likely to be Scripture-engaged. Okay. Now, with evangelicals being the most, just under half of evangelicals are Scripture-engaged, 46%. And part of being an evangelical is believing Jesus is God, you need to have a born-again experience, you should share your faith, and the Bible is authoritative. So that means a huge chunk of people are saying they're evangelicals and really aren't, or there's a lot of evangelicals just not living out what Scripture says. I mean, 46%. By the way, Bible-engaged is using the Bible at least [chuckles] four times a year, which is a really low bar to me. I couldn't... I actually thought they should have a higher bar than that.
Scott Rae: I thought... Originally, when I read that-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... I thought, "That's a misprint."
Sean McDowell: So did I!
Scott Rae: I thought it was-
Sean McDowell: I thought there's no way that's-
Scott Rae: ... Four, it's four times a week.
Sean McDowell: I, yeah, exactly. Now, they come back to the role of four times a week, but that just surprised me. This doesn't surprise me. Gen Z adults, 18 to 27, and they don't have younger, 'cause this study goes down to 18, so younger Gen Z-ers were still studying. They are the least Scripture-engaged. So if we talk about those who are Scripture-engaged by generation, from Boomers to X-ers to Millennials to Gen Z, it drops off every single generation. And this is where Barna study shows-
Scott Rae: That, that should tell us something, too.
Sean McDowell: It, it does tell us something, but Barna study shows that a biblical worldview drops off per generation. Could a big piece of that be that we're actually not reading the Bible? Now, one more thing is, here's the last thing I'll point out. There's a lot here, and I'm really scratching the surface. One in seven Americans rather consistently say the country would be better off, but four in nine say a Bible-less America would be worse. So far more... So let me... Maybe this would be more helpful. Half of Americans now agree that Bible reading is an important component of a child's character development. So what this means is-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... There's far more people that are willing to say, "Reading the Bible is good for America, it's important for a child's development," than those who say the opposite.
Scott Rae: And, and sounds like that those, that those that say, "It's good for me."
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Or at least who are living that out. Okay, so talk a little bit about the people who don't engage the Bible.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Scott Rae: For one, I think, how... What do you think accounts for that sort of consistent lowering of that percentage- ... Over the last few years? And then what I'm really curious about is how people who don't engage the Bible feel about their lack of engagement with it, and how-
Sean McDowell: Yeah, that-
Scott Rae: ... And the importance of reading the Bible, even though they're not doing it.
Sean McDowell: So people have a lot of reasons why they don't read the Bible and why they do, and we'll... We can come back to a lot of those. I think the biggest reason is just time. But I always say, "You have time for what's important." We make time for what matters. So that is not an excuse, especially with podcasts people can use while they're driving, working out. That's really not an excuse. It really is, it's just not a priority enough for people who don't do it, for whatever reason we could talk about.
Scott Rae: Yeah. I could see where, you know, some people look at reading the Bible as, you know, sitting down in a chair-
Sean McDowell: Yes
Scott Rae: ... You know, opening up the Bible to 1 Chronicles, [laughing] you know, or a book they're completely unfamiliar with, and thinking, you know, "Why, why? What am I... I'm not getting anything out of this." You know? But there, yeah, as you pointed out, there are so many new avenues for people to ingest the Scriptures.
Sean McDowell: For sure.
Scott Rae: You know, there's... I mean, I mean, how many, how many, you know, phone-based apps-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Are available for just... And all they do-
Sean McDowell: Yep
Scott Rae: ... Is they just read the Scripture.
Sean McDowell: Podcasts, apps-
Scott Rae: And-
Sean McDowell: ... Online, you know, free stuff
Scott Rae: You know, there's devotional guides.
Sean McDowell: It's there.
Scott Rae: I've, I've started using one-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Just at the start of the new year that I hadn't used before. So it's a wonderful devotional guide that gives- It do- it doesn't go through the Bible sort of book by book, but it goes through section, you know, sections and blocks-
Sean McDowell: Good
Scott Rae: ... Over several weeks, and it's been really a rich resource.
Scott Rae: So but people who don't... I think this, the thing about the report that struck me is that people who don't engage the Bible really feel like it's important to do so.
Sean McDowell: ... That was one of the biggest surprising things to me.
Scott Rae: That's, that's huge.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And, and I think they reckon not just important culturally, but important for me- ... Personally to be doing. I think that's what the report revealed. That's really striking to me, because if, you know, if I... It's sort of like n- you know, I know that there are certain foods that are bad for me-
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... But I'm eating them anyway-
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... Because I just don't have some of the discipline I'd like. And, you know, I know that there are a lot of things I ought to be eating that are really good for me, and I wish everybody else did that so the healthcare costs would go down. But, you know, I'm not eat- I'm not eating green vegetables at every meal. Uh- ... I'm just not.
Sean McDowell: So the Bible's not junk food, it's, like, good food.
Scott Rae: That's-
Sean McDowell: I just don't have the discipline to do it. That's, that's the key takeaway.
Scott Rae: I think that's the main... I think that's... I think if most people were honest about it- ... That would be the reason why they don't-
Sean McDowell: And the-
Scott Rae: ... Why they don't engage with it regularly.
Sean McDowell: And the data shows that. Different from the new atheists just critique about the Bible, a lot of people still hold it in high esteem and at least wish they read it more, like they-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Wish they ate their broccoli and green beans. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yeah. Now, that's, that's not to say they don't wrestle with certain parts of it that-
Sean McDowell: Of course
Scott Rae: ... You know, that make-
Sean McDowell: Of course
Scott Rae: ... Sort of make them scratch their head.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Scott Rae: I mean, we, I think we all have, we all have those things that we've, you know, that we're gonna, when we meet the Lord, we're gonna ask Him about. So, how some of those things work, I think, are still sort of puzzling to me. But the overwhelmingly, I think the part that, the parts that are easy to understand far outweigh- ... The parts that are tricky and challenging.
Sean McDowell: I agree.
Scott Rae: So let's, one of, one of the things I'm so glad they-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... I'm so glad they talked about this part, is they have a chapter on how artificial intelligence impacts, the read- the reading of the Bible, on church, on spiritual growth. Oh, I mean, I'm just, I was so fascinated to read that. So spell out for our, for our viewers, what does, what does AI have to do with all of this, and how is it impacting this?
Sean McDowell: Here's a quote that they included I thought was helpful. This is from, two different authors. I honestly can't pronounce their names. Said, "The question of the church leaders becomes not whether the church will embrace AI, but how the church will embrace AI." And I think that's right, but I think we're kind of in a cultural moment where we don't know what's okay and what's not okay, and there's a lot of unspoken assumptions about AI. I suspect that if... And I don't, I can't put a number on this, but I suspect if there are a lot of church workers and pastors who made it known to their congregation exactly how they're using AI, they might get a little pushback and questioning about this, and people that are not happy with it. So I, we had somebody I was working with, and they sent us a study guide for a book we were working on and didn't tell us it was put together by AI, and honestly, it really bothered me. I felt like I'm a guinea pig. Why don't you just tell me, and then I can look at it? So I think one thing we gotta takeaway is pastors need to be very clear about how they're using AI, in what way they're using it, at least with the staff and the leadership, so they're doing it with integrity. That's one takeaway. This stat I thought was interesting. There's a bunch in here people can read. They said, "I would look unfavorably at a pastor or priest using AI to develop sermons or homilies." It was basically one-third disagree, one-third uncertain, and one-third agree. In other words, people don't even know what that means. They're all over the map. Now, of course, the question is, how do you use it to produce a sermon? So there's a big difference between saying, [chuckles] you know, "ChatGPT, write a sermon for me on this." That's obviously out of bounds. But what if you're reading a passage and you just say... You plug in the passage and say, "ChatGPT, what do you think is the main point of this passage?" Well, it doesn't mean you trust ChatGPT, but that might be a helpful tool to figure out. What if you say, "ChatGPT, give me an outline of this passage. ChatGPT, help me with an application of this"? Okay, maybe as a tool to supplement, but for me, I wanna just dive into a text first, understand it, do my research, and then AI is a tool on top of that. That's more so how I wanna use it. But I'll tell you, with things like Logos Bible Software, built into their newest version, AI tools, it's incredible the time-saving devices that you can use and are available. Bottom line is, I think there's a lack of clarity, so here's, here's what they write. This- I'll just read this paragraph. They're talking about Gen Z-ers. "Why don't we see more support for AI among younger generations? They're actually less likely to support AI." So younger generations, less likely to support it in the church, and Bible-engaged, less likely to support AI, which surprised me, and I have a theory about that. And they said, "Authenticity appears to be highly valued in that group, and so the intrinsic artificiality of AI might be difficult for many to accept." Maybe. That, I mean, that could be a piece of it. I tend to think those who are Scripture-engaged probably have a more robust view of human nature and, being fallen human nature and are skeptical of these tools being used well and concerned it'll be manipulated. If I had to guess, that's why I would say Scripture-engaged are less enthusiastic about AI. Do you agree with that, or what was your take on that point?
Scott Rae: Well, I give you an example. I spoke on AI in the church about a year ago- ... When ChatGPT was just starting to make waves.
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: And I did an exercise in front of the church.... And I had my computer plugged into their screen, so it was, it came up on the screen, and I said... I s- I asked the pastor, I said, "Tell me what passage you're preaching on next week." And so I, and he told me, and it was, three or four verses from Philippians. And so I plugged into the prompt, said, "Give me a thousand-word sermon-
Sean McDowell: Oh, man
Scott Rae: ... Ba- on Philippian, Philippians, like, 1, like-
Sean McDowell: Sure
Scott Rae: ... Nine through 12." And in, like, 10 seconds-
Sean McDowell: It-
Scott Rae: ... It spits, it spits it out. And it, the, you see, you could see the people, the people in the pews, their eyes just sort of- [laughing] And then I said, "Let's do it again." And now I said, "Give me the, give me the same sermon, but in the voice of the pastor of the church." And it was markedly different. Same, some of the same main points, but you could see that it had tweaked it in order to better represent what it had gotten off of the pastor-
Sean McDowell: The internet, from his content.
Scott Rae: From, from, yeah. We, all, you know, all the sermons are posted on the web, and-
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And so I said-
Sean McDowell: Wow, man
Scott Rae: ... "At least, you know, let's be clear about what you're doing." And, and then I made, I made two points at the end. I said, "For one, you know, AI doesn't run the message through your own life experience." "It- that's not the filter that it uses." "And second, AI is not filled by the Holy Spirit." [laughing] "And you are. The, the person is." And so I think it's fine to use for, you know, prompt, you know, prompting, you know, priming the pump-
Sean McDowell: Sure
Scott Rae: ... For ideas, you know, things like that. But I don't want authors to turn into editors and pastors to turn into basically glorified plagiarists- ... In their preaching. So I'm- ... I think it's, you know, the effect on how people read the Scripture, I could see, you know, I could see perhaps using it to give me different interpretive options-
Sean McDowell: Sure
Scott Rae: ... For a challenging passage, you know, like, and just use that instead of, you know, looking at, you know, half a dozen commentaries. And I could see, I could see use- you know, give me some ideas for application. I could see use, just to prime the pump in that way.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, prime the pump is a good way to put it.
Scott Rae: But, I... But, you know, it's not surprising that people just don't know, just still don't know quite what to do with it.
Sean McDowell: I think the bottom line, people are not talking about it. There's not clarity. There's different assumptions. So minimally, one takeaway from this is, if you're a church, talk about this. Get on the same page. Maybe have a policy like we do in our classes, so there's at least clarity on what's okay and what's not. That's a good takeaway from this.
Scott Rae: Now, one of the... There were, there were a number of parts of the report that I didn't expect-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Scott Rae: ... That didn't strike me initially when I read the table of contents as having much to do with the reading of the Bible. So for example, the, there was a whole chapter on, you know, what's the connection between, where, you know, where people are in terms of going to church- ... With sort of coming out of COVID when so much church was online, remote, and, or in person. There's a whole chapter on that.
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: I didn't see that as particularly related to the reading of the Bible, though the Scripture-engaged folks, I think, were more inclined to see the importance of church in person, in the flesh, in community. But tell us a little bit about, you know, how the impact of, where people are in terms of the Bible affects how they view going to church.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, this is interesting. They, they write this. They said, "Many assume that online church viewing would temporarily supplant in-person attendance, but once COVID threat dissipated, people would return to the live services. According to our newest data, that seems to be true." That's a good trend. In-person attendance is bouncing back. So if you go to 2021 through 2024, the numbers of in-person, primarily in person, was 38, 56, 67, now 75%. It's on an upward trajectory, which I think is positive, which means people are studying and reading the Bible in person, so to speak. Now, this one made me really happy, Scott. It said, "Gen X," which is my generation, "is the generation most likely to attend in person." Way to go, Gen X. We got beat up for a long time. Now, they do point out, they're like, maybe Millennials have kids, and that's harder, so there's fair pieces that are taking place there. They said, "Online attenders," which is people who use... They go in person, but when they can't, will watch online, so it's kind of a blend of the two, "including those who attend church online and in person about equally, are more likely to read the Bible on their own." I see that, I'm like, "Okay, that's, that's interesting." So somebody's attendance, you know, shapes how much they engage the Bible. Fine. I don't know why, but it does. This was an interesting question, and I wanna know what you think about this one. They wrote, this is on page 38. They said, "Our data suggests that some churches are discontinuing their online options." So now that 75% of people are back coming to church as a whole, should we discontinue online options and focus incarnationally on those in our local community? What's your take?
Scott Rae: Well, let me, let me give an, just give an example first.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Scott Rae: And then I'll, I'll give... And this will, this will reveal my take. When, the po- I think the first place I spoke in a church during, it was during pretty serious COVID restrictions.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Scott Rae: It was all remote, although I w- and I was in the building.... So I spoke from in the building. It was live-streamed, and there may have been, I don't know, maybe 10 people in the building- ... At the time, tech folks, and there was a worship team that led worship remotely. And I was the only one sitting in a seat in the building, and that worship service, the first time I'd been in public worship- ... In a local church in months and months. I remember feeling this incredible wave of just joy- ... And refreshment- ... In being in person- ... Worshiping, even though I was the only, [chuckles] the only person in the seats. And I thought, I, yeah, this is, this is so, this is so right- ... For me. Now, I'm not... You know, some people, you know, they flourish in, you know, in watching online and, you know, not having to, you know, get dressed and all that stuff, and, you know, and I get that. But there was something that was so refreshing just about being back-
Sean McDowell: Amen
Scott Rae: ... Being in person, even though I [chuckles] was the only person in the seats. So I wouldn't have a problem if a church wanted to discontinue online services, but I'd wanna make sure that they have at least some of the worship and the preaching still available online. Right now, I attend a church where the preaching is not the main event. And that's, that's different than a lot of other evangelical churches, but I attend an Anglican church where communion- ... Is the main event. Everything else leads up to that. And there's, you know, doing communion, the Eucharist, online is really challenging to do- [laughs]
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
Scott Rae: ... To ma- to make it really meaningful.
Sean McDowell: Needless to say, yeah.
Scott Rae: That's a, that's a tough thing to do. So I think there's some, maybe some traditions that can more easily dispense with online delivery than others. So, but I would want... I'd wanna make sure that people have access to at least some of the Bible teaching- ... Maybe some of the worship, that they could enjoy. If they're just not able to make it on a particular Sunday, they can go back during the week and, you know, and look it up and take advantage of that.
Sean McDowell: So that's interesting. Now, it's different than saying, "We want online for our community when they're sick or they're traveling to hear or see a sermon or the communion, et cetera," versus, "We are trying to reach other people through our online sermon." Those are different things. I would say, if you're a local church, your first responsibility, your focus, and your resources is to reach those in your community. So if you can have a further reach without compromising this, go for it and do it. We are called to reach the nations, but our priority is to the local church. They point out in a, on a-
Scott Rae: I think, I think that's okay, as long as the church makes it clear that there is something about being embodied in a body-
Sean McDowell: Right
Scott Rae: ... In a body of believers in person, that's just a diff- it's a different experience than being online.
Sean McDowell: They emphasize that. Yeah, and I mean-
Scott Rae: I think that's important to-
Sean McDowell: That, that's my point
Scott Rae: ... To bring out
Sean McDowell: 'cause you prioritize in person, but for when you just can't be there... I go, I listen to my home church [chuckles] sermons when I can't go. That's for me. Now, with that said, I preach quarterly. I'm on the preaching team this year in my home church, and I asked my pastor, I said, "I'm gonna preach first to our congregation, but I'm gonna frame the message in a way that I can put it online- ... And reach more people." He's like, "Great, go for it." So that's a way, if you have the resources and the ability to reach more people, go for it, but make sure the local-
Scott Rae: Right
Sean McDowell: ... Church is not, you know, under-prioritized. And so they point out on page 103, they said, "Many people who watch church online, find a haven who don't yet fully trust the church. It can be an on-ramp to a local church." So there's endless-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Sermons, endless podcasts people can listen to, but there's also something about, like, a local church of someone who goes, "Oh, I'm in my community in Indiana or New Hampshire or Southern California. This pastor's preaching to people like me. I wanna hear it before I go." That is a valuable reason to have it online, that I would encourage, like you said, pastors to keep doing.
Scott Rae: Yeah, that's right. They... It's almost as though, "I wanna, I wanna go to church, but I don't wanna have to interact with those people." [laughs]
Sean McDowell: [laughs] And ag- and it could be-
Scott Rae: And I-
Sean McDowell: ... I get it.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Some of it can be church hurt.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Some of it can be just different reasons.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: As step one, great.
Scott Rae: They just, you know, they wanna stay anonymous.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Scott Rae: You know, they don't wanna, they don't wanna s- they don't wanna... You have to turn in a card that you're a new person or anything like that.
Sean McDowell: Or they're an introvert, and they're just-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... As long as it's step A, and you're working to get people there in person, prioritizing it-
Scott Rae: Good balance
Sean McDowell: ... We're both good with it. Yeah.
Scott Rae: Here's... I think, Sean, this is the part that I, that I actually got the most out of.
Sean McDowell: 100% agree.
Scott Rae: And that is, this is the part about, human flourishing.
Sean McDowell: I agree.
Scott Rae: And the Bible engagement, what does that have to do with our ability to flourish as individuals the way God intended us to be?
Sean McDowell: I agree 100%. If people are still with us, watching, listening, in some ways, we should have-
Scott Rae: I hope so
Sean McDowell: ... Started with this.
Scott Rae: Yeah, exactly, but-
Sean McDowell: This is really a big takeaway here. So by the way, when they talk about human flourishing, they s- this was, their index-
Scott Rae: Yeah, who's measuring it?
Sean McDowell: ... Was developed by-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Researchers from Harvard University, the Human Flourishing Index, and it covers five specific areas of life that we won't go into. Now, they do point out that Americans dropped one decimal point in their overall human flourishing score in 2024. I don't even know if that's significant or what that really means, but they're, they're using a legitimate metric here.... And this part is incredible to me, Scott. They said a few things. They said, "The more often people interact with the Bible, the higher their human flourishing scores." Greater interaction-
Scott Rae: On the Harvard scale.
Sean McDowell: On the Harvard scale, greater human flourishing scores. Now, of course, right away, people are asking the question, "Well, maybe it's the kind of people who would flourish, who would interact with the Bible," and I think we're gonna see reason why it's actually reading the Bible itself that encourages this flourishing. Now, they talk about Bible-promoting agencies have mentioned the power of four. So I've interviewed my friends at Logos Bible Software. I use their stuff all the time, and for years they've said there's something about engaging the Bible four times a week. Not three times, four times weekly shifts and causes, like, a significant- ... Uptick in your human flourishing. And I've heard that, and I believe them. They're like, "Our data actually supports that." I don't know why, I could only guess, but there's something about human flourishing, not four times a year, but four times a week encourages that. So they ask the question, "What is it about regular Bible use that impacts human flourishing?" And one is meaning and purpose. You're not an accident. The Bible... You're part of a story. You're made in God's image. There's a meaning for your suffering. There's a meaning for your life. That's one. Second, they have what's called hope agency, and they just describe it as the sense a person has when they're moving forward on a path that leads in a good direction. I have a sense of optimism and hope that my life is moving in that direction. Those who read the Bible more have a greater hope agency. They said, that was the second one. I think there's three or four. The third one is they said, "Those who agree strongly that they can forgive others are two full points higher on the overall flourishing score." That's significant.
Scott Rae: Interesting, 'cause they don't hold grudges.
Sean McDowell: Yeah. Now you're taking these-
Scott Rae: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... One by one. It's like the Bible has meaning, the Bible talks about hope, the Bible says to forgive one another. You know, these are biblical ideas. Fourth, it says, "Scripture-engaged people report much less stress than others." They said it's not even close, more than 30% lower than the other groups. And then they bring in that it's not just reading the Bible, but it's practicing Christians report three-quarters less stress than others if you practice your faith. Now, they point- ... Out some other things in here, like Gen Z-ers have the highest level of stress of any group, which is interesting. They also report the lowest levels of hope agency. But if you go back to the human flourishing, Gen Z adults who are scripture-engaged, once again, have much, lower levels of stress and anxiety than those who don't, so even with this generation. So, I mean, I could go on and on. It says, "When these young adults are scripture-engaged, they flourish as much as their elders, and even more with Gen Z." So I just... I mean, here's their conclusion: "People tend to flourish in life when they're regularly and meaningfully interacting with the Bible." The data to back this up I think is really significant.
Scott Rae: Now, we've always known that reading the Bible regularly was good for you. We just haven't had the data to tell us exactly how that works, and I think... You know, I wanna be careful that we don't, you know, that we, that we look at the people who are getting the cart before the horse, where they say that if, you know, the people who are more inclined to flourish in general are the ones who are reading the Bible. I think that's backward. What the data shows is that the, it's reading the Bible itself that makes you, not entirely, but ma- it contributes to making you a person who flourishes in your life. Now, I think there probably are some people who, you know, they just... You know, they're just these emotionally healthy pr- people-
Sean McDowell: Sure
Scott Rae: ... Who happen, who also happen-
Sean McDowell: Sure
Scott Rae: ... To read the Bible. So that, there's probably some of that there.
Sean McDowell: Well, there- ... If I can, there is some selection effect, but when the Bible says, "Forgive one another's," "Your life has meaning," "There's hope in Christ," [chuckles] "Cast all your anxieties upon me"-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... It's teaching the very things that lead to human flourishing. And what they mean by practicing Christians by-
Scott Rae: And that, and flourishing, not according to how a church defines it.
Sean McDowell: According to the Harvard... And they make a distinction here between casuals and nominal Christians and nuns. It's actually the practicing Christians.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: They have the best scores in every [chuckles] individual component of human flourishing, as well as the metrics related to hope and stress. That means going to church, saying faith is important, saying they follow Jesus. So I think it's... I think the data's pretty strong and clear.
Scott Rae: Now, there are a co- a couple other areas that have to do with flourishing and some of the effects of reading the Bible regularly, and maybe we'll, we'll close with these two. You know, how does the Bible influence loneliness? There's a whole chapter on that- ... In the report. But it has a lot to say about- ... So how does, how does, how does reading the Scripture, presumably in isolation, affect how people combat loneliness? And that-
Sean McDowell: There's been a lot of talk about loneliness lately.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Like Britain is talking about a commissioner of loneliness. Surgeon General has talked about how-
Scott Rae: Hopefully, hopefully that's not an introvert. [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: Yeah, exactly. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: Fair enough. The Surgeon General talked about the-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... You know, I forget the numbers. Like, being lonely is equivalent to smoking a certain number of cigarettes per day, just on your health and lifespan. So they point out a few things, like women report more loneliness than men. Gen Z scores highest in the loneliness, like you said earlier, self-reporting. Those who are married are about half as likely to report a high level of loneliness as those who are not. Like, these are-... Some things we might expect. But then they say, "Active Christians combat loneliness in two ways. First, when they engage scripture, they interact with a God who loves them, with an everlasting God."
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: "Part of the message of the Bible is you're not alone. God sees you. The Holy Spirit is with you. But second, it leads to meaningful connection with others." Why? Because it talks about the importance and really [chuckles] the command of going to church. So the conversation we had earlier about going to church, it's really the Bible that encourages that fellowship, and, of course, when there's fellowship, you're less likely to report being alone. So they... You know, scripture-engaged people are half as likely to report high loneliness as the Bible disengaged, 22% versus 11%. It says, "It's no surprise, then, that people who read about love and humility and forgiveness, and live out these principles in their lives, would build strong friendships and report fewer feelings of loneliness."
Scott Rae: Yeah, now, that's an important thing to, I think, to emphasize, because it's not- There's... You know, just reading the Bible is not a magic bullet on this. It's reading the Bible and living it out- ... That the combination of those is what contributes to combating loneliness-
Sean McDowell: That's right
Scott Rae: ... And flor- and contributes to flourishing, things like that. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want our viewers to be misled, that simply... Although, the, you know, the task of reading the Bible just in isolation is valuable in and of itself. But we say that's a necessary but not sufficient condition for somebody's flourishing. But it's, it- the emphasis, which is a biblical emphasis on not... You know, on living it out. As my mentor used to say, "The, the Bible was not written to increase your information- ... But to transform your life." so one other area that-
Sean McDowell: Can, can-
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Let me say something.
Scott Rae: Yeah, go ahead.
Sean McDowell: I think you would still find... I don't believe the study talks about this. People who read the Bible and don't practice it, I would bet my house, and maybe this is too aggressive, that you would still see an uptick in their reporting not feeling lonely because of the message and ideas in the Bible. When you live it out, then you see the highest uptick-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... Is what I would guess. Now, I do have to point something in this. I don't know what to do with this data, Scott, but it said, "On all different worldviews, atheists struggle least with loneliness and agnostics the most." Now, I don't know why, and they put a couple guesses in here what it could be. They're like, you know, ath- anyways, sometimes... That's why you need multiple studies-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... And you need a lot of things to weigh in here, but sometimes there's data we gotta recognize and go, "Okay, this is, this is interesting. What exactly do we do with this?"
Scott Rae: I'd say any of our viewers who have an idea on that-
Sean McDowell: Yeah, tell us!
Scott Rae: ... Write in and let us know.
Sean McDowell: I would love to know.
Scott Rae: It'd be very interesting.
Sean McDowell: I'm really curious what that, what that might be.
Scott Rae: Hey, one more area.
Sean McDowell: Yep.
Scott Rae: And that is... It, This one is not, was not a huge surprise. But, Bible engagement leads to a greater emphasis on charity- ... And giving. Okay, that, I'm not super surprised by that, but there, but it sounds like there's a little more to that than meets the eye initially.
Sean McDowell: I'm so glad you brought this up. This is probably the second most significant thing to me. Now, in some ways, it didn't surprise me. I've heard for years that people who are more politically conservative and more theologically conservative give more time and money to the poor and charity. The focus in here wasn't just how you answer, but whether you are scripture-engaged or not. So it's related to activity, the way you described it, not just cerebral beliefs. And they said, "Scripture-engaged people are more likely to donate to charity, and they give more." Now, they explain different reasons why that might be the case, but for many, it goes beyond the obligation. They find in scripture a passionate spirit of giving. So there's a command of giving, and it's taught about the goodness of giving, but this, on page 182, we should throw this chart up there, but it says, "Giving by faith participation." Non-Christians, I think this is annually, if I'm reading it correctly. Non-Christian is about $1,400, nominal, 1,500, casual Christian, 2,700, practicing Christian, $5,800.
Scott Rae: Yeah, more than-
Sean McDowell: That's huge
Scott Rae: ... More than double.
Sean McDowell: Now, some outside might critique and say, "Well, you're giving to the church, and we differ over those causes." Okay, we can, we can have that conversation, but nonetheless, they're sacrificing more-
Scott Rae: That's right
Sean McDowell: ... And giving more because reading the Bible, when you take it to heart, like you said, leads towards behavior that should, and in this case does, help our neighbors. So that stat was-
Scott Rae: Yeah, well-
Sean McDowell: ... Kind of awesome [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... Particularly since the Bible has a whole lot to say about money, possessions, giving, and generosity. You know, maybe... That may be the most, the most frequently addressed topic- ... In all the scriptures. Now, w- just one final thing. How can... If our listeners are inclined to read through all the data, how do they get ahold of this?
Sean McDowell: I think you just search online, and we can put a link, State of the Bible USA 2024.
Scott Rae: Okay.
Sean McDowell: And you can download it, I think, for free. We got a copy that was sent from our office, [chuckles] so I assume it's free. If there's a cost for it's worth it. If you're a data person like me, and what we talked about here was helpful, this gives the background. They talk about a lot of issues we didn't go into. And so for church staff, it might be helpful to just kind of work through this and say, "How are we encouraging Bible engagement, and what of this information can we get out to help our congregation?" I think it'd be really helpful in that way. And I wanna thank the American Bible Society-
Scott Rae: Hear, hear
Sean McDowell: ... Because they're doing good work. This is a big sacrifice-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... To put this together. I'm assuming this is helpful to them, but they keep pumping out these reports.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: We'll keep talking about it and encouraging people to pick it up.
Scott Rae: Yeah, now, I'm not a data nerd, but I'm glad you are. [laughs] And, uh-
Sean McDowell: I am a data nerd. [laughs]
Scott Rae: [chuckles] But it's... I think this is really helpful for our listeners. I hope, I hope, I hope it has been helpful to you. And we recommend that churches use this, in ways to help engage- ... Their members more in, more, to help more of them become scripture-engaged on a regular basis. And we we would define that [chuckles] as more than four times a year.
Sean McDowell: Oh, man.
Scott Rae: We're, we're, we're shooting for the four times a week mark-
Sean McDowell: Exactly
Scott Rae: ... On that. So we hope this has been helpful. If, if you're one of those that wants to wade through the data, we really encourage you to get this, the State of the Bible from the American Bible Society. Sean, this has been super helpful. I'm grateful that you did a, did a deep dive into this.
Sean McDowell: I enjoy it.
Scott Rae: 'cause I, you... This is one of the ways in which you and I are just wired differently.
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
Scott Rae: So I'm ve- I'm very thankful for that. [upbeat music]
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: So if you have, if you have a question or a comment, not only about this but about in general, please feel free to email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. And we wanna be sure you join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. And in the meantime, think biblically about everything. Thanks for joining us. [upbeat music]
