Godly Ambition

How can we unlock our talent, treasure, and time for the kingdom? Ruslan KD is a highly successful YouTuber, entrepreneur, and rapper. He has a new book out called "Godly Ambition." He and Sean discuss his journey to faith and how to develop a platform for Christ without falling into many dangerous traps of our social media age.

Ruslan KD, a hip-hop artist, content creator, and entrepreneur of Armenian descent, was a refugee from Azerbaijan when he moved to the United States as a child. He started a YouTube channel around 2015 that has grown into a popular platform for discussions on faith, lifestyle, and music. Known for his insights on Christ-centered living, culture, and personal development, he is also a speaker, author, and advocate for godly ambition.

Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] Ruslan is one of the most recognizable Christian influencers today. He's a popular YouTuber, rapper, and author of the new book, Godly Ambition.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: You gave me the opportunity to endorse this. I think it's fantastic. We're gonna look at your life, your assessment of the church today, and a warning you have for young Christians. This is long overdue, but thanks for coming on, man.

Ruslan KD: Man, thanks for having me. Yeah, I had you on about a year ago-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, a couple times

Ruslan KD: ... In this same conversation. Yeah, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Couple times you've been on. Well, I wanna start with your story.

Ruslan KD: Okay.

Sean McDowell: I know you were not born in the States, you were not a Christian growing up. Tell us about your family growing up.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, so I'm ethnically Armenian-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... But raised in a country called Azerbaijan, Baku-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... Which is just to the east of Armenia. And Armenia and the Turks have a long ongoing thing from the Armenian genocide, and so Turkey, Azerbaijan, often referred to as two nations-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... Two people, one state.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Ruslan KD: And there's been a lot of deep, ethnic cleansing in that region of Armenians. And so long story short, in the '80s, we had something called the Pogroms of Baku-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... Which was over, I think I wanna say the year 1988 to 1990, about half a million Armenians were ethnically cleansed from Azerbaijan. And me and my family came as refugees because of that, massive violence in the streets- ... Hundreds of folks killed. And it was very, you know, crazy for my family. My dad had to leave early. Me and my mom stayed behind, 'cause we... My mom's adopted by an Armenian family, but she's, uh-

Sean McDowell: Interesting

Ruslan KD: ... Ethnically Russian or Ukrainian. I'm not quite sure- ... On my 23andMe.

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: When I ran it said half Russian, Ukrainian.

Sean McDowell: Sure. [laughing]

Ruslan KD: And so because we were fair-skinned, we stayed behind longer to kinda- ... Settle the affairs. And yeah, came to the United States as a refugee, in '91. My mom was the only one-

Sean McDowell: So you were how old?

Ruslan KD: I was six.

Sean McDowell: Oh, wow.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, to San Diego-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Ruslan KD: ... Which is a very different San Diego-

Sean McDowell: Oh, yeah

Ruslan KD: ... Than it is now, you know-

Sean McDowell: That's true

Ruslan KD: ... In the City Heights area-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... Folks who are familiar with San Diego. And subsequently, after my mom and my dad split- ... Because of infidelity on both sides- ... And so, and I end up being exposed to God in the first context. We had no God in the Soviet Union, 'cause Azerbaijan was under the Soviet Union. So there's no faith, no God, and my first exposure to it is in the Armenian Orthodox Church- ... Which was very interesting, a part of the Oriental arm of the Orthodox Church, so think, Ethiopian-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... Armenian.

Sean McDowell: Uh-huh.

Ruslan KD: So I end up getting christened. I become an altar boy. I'm a part of the whole thing. I love being an altar boy, because you can't discard the ba- the blood of Christ, uh- ... With the communion wine, so they let the altar boys finish the communion wine.

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: This is, this is true. This can be verified.

Sean McDowell: I actually didn't know that. [laughing]

Ruslan KD: Yeah, so you think, you know, seven years old-

Sean McDowell: We have grape juice in the Baptist Church, man, so-

Ruslan KD: Yeah, yeah. We, we were doing the real thing. So seven years old, and then something, happened where there were- ... Some older altar boys who were, like, early teens, like 12, 13, 14. I was, like, seven or eight. They ended up sexually assaulting me. And that ended up, just completely doing a number on everything-

Sean McDowell: Oh, yeah

Ruslan KD: ... Regards to God, regards to faith, regards to how the church didn't handle it, didn't engage with it, and just kinda checked out. And I remember in fourth grade, I got my ear pierced, and I came to the church, and my ter hayr, my priest at the time, like, sat me down and confronted me about my earring. And like, quotes Leviticus to me, and I'm like, "Dude, like, [chuckles] what?" You know?

Sean McDowell: Even in fourth grade-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... It's like, something's-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Messed up.

Ruslan KD: And, and then my mom was bitter at the church, 'cause they remarried my dad, which they technically- ... Shouldn't have, because he, I- according to her, was never divorced from her. So she goes down this downward spiral of alcohol. She does not like the church. I don't like the church 'cause of what happened, and so I had to have been the youngest atheist on the face of the earth.

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: Fourth, fifth grade, I'm like, "There is no God."

Sean McDowell: Like, you would say that?

Ruslan KD: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Like, you just flat-out-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... No life after death-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... God doesn't exist.

Ruslan KD: Yep, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Was it a combination of, like, the indoctrination or the teaching about God, or just your experience of pain in the church, or all of the above?

Ruslan KD: You know, I think for me, it was the problem of evil. Like, like, why would God... Why would a good God allow this to happen to me? Why would a good God have my father leave? Why would a good God, you know, allow me to go through this sort of stuff with, you know, being exposed to sexuality at a very early age and, the sexual assault- ... And the way it wa- it was handled? Thth Those were the questions that I was kinda wrestling with initially, and then that sent me down just a crazy spiral of, you know, drugs, alcohol. I got... We were breaking into homes, so I got arrested at age 11 for breaking into a home.

Sean McDowell: 11 years old-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... You're arrested?

Ruslan KD: Yeah, I was, I was caught hanging out of a bathroom window of a condo around the corner, 'cause we were trying to bail out our own-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Ruslan KD: ... Our gang leader. Uh-

Sean McDowell: Wow!

Ruslan KD: Yeah, and so, you know, my mom's a single mom. She's, she's frustrated. You know, she's like, "Dude, like, you're, you're out of control." And I- my first, like, real exposure to the gospel was when I got arrested, I had to do some community service. I was so young, they were just kinda like, "Do 30 hours of community service-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles] Okay

Ruslan KD: ... And, like, we'll, we'll leave you alone." The, the older kids that got arrested with me, they, theirs was a bit more serious, like they had, like, a whole- they had a probation officer and this whole thing. I just had to do community service, and I ended up doing it at a church that was connected to some folks in my apartment complex- ... Black Baptist church. And that was the first time, in the mid-'90s, that I'm starting to hear about Jesus, you know? And they're telling me, "You know, God has a plan for you, God loves you." And I'm like, "No, you know, like, there is no God, and if there is a God, He definitely doesn't love me." And, and that was my mindset. And they had this sweetness to them, where they-... They exhibited grace and truth. There was, like, an acceptance of, like, "You're a messed up kid, and we love you right where you are-" "... But God has so much more than you." And then, you know, it turned into these weird, like, kind of prophetic moments, where it was like, "God's, God's gonna do great things with you someday. You're, you're gonna speak-"

Sean McDowell: Like, they would tell you that-

Ruslan KD: They would tell me this stuff

Sean McDowell: ... And speak that to you.

Ruslan KD: And, and anyone that knows, like, the idiosyncrasies of the Black Baptist Church, like, they're not they're not, like... They're not Pentecostals. They're not, they're not- ... You know, there's a prophetic word every week type. Like, their theology's a bit more conservative with regards to some of that stuff.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Ruslan KD: And so, yeah, that w- I would get these... Multiple people would give me these weird kind of words, and I was just like, "Oh, you guys don't get it." [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: And then as I'm getting off probation, I have to do community service, so I'm doing it at the Black Baptist Church. I'm around Charlie and Willie, who are taking me out, and they're kind of playing as these, like, pseudo father figures to me, 'cause my dad wasn't- ... Really around. And eighth grade, we end up relocating from the Normal Heights, City Heights area to Vista, which was like a suburban-ish, slower pace of life, and that was, like, my shot at, like, a... Okay, I knew that, like, I... Like, I wasn't a tough guy. Like, we weren't, like... We didn't have guns. We weren't, like, fighting, and, like, d- like, we were just breaking into st- breaking into houses, stealing from stores, smoking weed, that sort of stuff. Moved to Vista, and it was like a clean slate. It was like, "Okay, cool." Like, I knew that this was a fresh start.

Sean McDowell: You could have a clean slate in those days. It's a little harder today with-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Social media [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But you could start over.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's good.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, and so I was like, "Man, I'm gonna go all in on basketball. Like, I'm gonna be a professional basketball player."

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: All right.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, and then my mom's boyfriend sat me down and explained-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: ... A little something called genetics. [laughing] It was like, "Look-"

Sean McDowell: I've been given that talk a lot.

Ruslan KD: [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: I didn't listen. I still tried, but- [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: I tried. I tried my heart out, and then I ended up getting into basketball and music. 'Cause, you know, you're coming from, you know, impoverished areas. There's... You don't see a lot of opportunities to-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... To do anything, and so it was, like, sports and entertainment. And the end of my freshman year, I won this talent show at Bringle Terrace Park. And, and I, and this, and I meet this girl at the talent show, and she's... We start talking, we start dating, and the only way I could see her over the summer is if I went to church with her and her family on Sundays. And so I s- I just casually start going-

Sean McDowell: I love it

Ruslan KD: ... To a church, and I'm, you know, whatever, like, I'm, I'm here. But then, like, something just started to click slowly, the message of hope, the Gospel, the idea that Jesus loves me, just slowly started to click. Me and the girl break up, and now there's a Jehovah's Witness girl I'm dating.

Sean McDowell: Oh.

Ruslan KD: And so now... And I got Mormon friends, and this is right around 9/11, and this is, like-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Ruslan KD: ... I'm, you know, I have a very diverse palate in terms of beliefs. You know, we're, we're talking about aliens. We're talk-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: ... Like, ev- all of it.

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: And I remember dating this Jehovah's Witness girl, reading Reasoning from the Scriptures, trying to hear them out, and at that point, I was convinced, like, Jesus is the Son of God, but he's not God Almighty.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: He's not Yahweh. And so then I spent time trying to detangle that, and my sophomore year, the beginning of my sophomore year, I lied on my application. I said I was 16-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: ... When I was 15, [chuckles] and I ended up getting a job at Pizza Hut. Now, this is, this is how amazing how God works, is that working at Pizza Hut, my manager and our lead delivery driver, the one that had been there the longest, were both Christians.

Sean McDowell: Both of them.

Ruslan KD: And so we're in the back. You know, at Pizza Hut, you've got to prep the dough, prep pizzas. We're in the back. He's finishing his shift. We're just talking, and I'm... You know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a theist at this point. But I'm confused. I'm confused as all get out, but I'm still going to this, like, church, you know? But there's no one's explaining apologetics. No one's explaining any of this sort of stuff, just, like, a good, inspirational church on Sundays. And I'm, and I'm wrestling with this, and so I start talking to this dude, and, the manager's name is Barbara, and I'm telling them, like, "Hey," like, "yeah, I don't think Jesus is God. I think he's the Son of God," and he's like, "Hey, I'm gonna... I got you," and he brings me the New Evidence That Demands a Verdict-

Sean McDowell: Amazing

Ruslan KD: ... By your dad.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Ruslan KD: And as a sophomore in high school-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... I get this academic-sized- ... Textbook, and I ended up reading it, and- ... And that's kind of what, like, got my head on straight with regards to the theology side of things. Uh-

Sean McDowell: Amazing.

Ruslan KD: And then it was another year of, like, wrestling and getting out of that relationship, still being sexually mor- going back to the Christian girl, still being sexually immoral, wrestling through it, but I at least had, like... I understood with what I believed. And then after that, finally, the end of my junior year, like, I fully surrendered my life to Jesus and started a Bi- a Bible study, at that same church, called The Vessel, which was an open mic and Bible study. And so we had 100 young people coming every Thursday. It outgrew many of their ministries, and yeah, I really haven't looked back since. But kind of what I ran into is like, "Okay, cool. N- I believe in Jesus. I'm in church. I'm in a community group. I'm reading my Bible-"

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Ruslan KD: "... But I still have all these issues. Like, I'm still wrestling with sin. I'm still struggling with porn. I'm still doing these thing," and I, and I, and I would read, you know, Every Young Man's Battle, w- read it multiple... I r- I would read these books, but there was no like, "Okay, and now what?" Right? Like, I get the, I get the theology, I get the community-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... I get the Bible, but, like, what am I supposed to do day to day as a young man full of testosterone-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: ... With hopes and dreams- ... A lot of trauma?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: We weren't talking about therapy and counseling-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... Back then as much, right? How do I navigate this? And, and so that's kind of the overflow of that. The culmination of that is, like, where the book Godly Ambition ends up flowing out of. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We're gonna come to that book. I have, I have so many questions I wanna ask you about this.

Ruslan KD: Okay.

Sean McDowell: Camera won't pick it up, but my dad is here watching. They came this morning, wanted to meet you.

Ruslan KD: Super cool. I got him to sign my, uh-

Sean McDowell: Aw!

Ruslan KD: ... New Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

Sean McDowell: That, that's so special to hear-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That's a part of your story.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So he talks about reliability of the Bible, deity of Christ, resurrection, and that. It sounds like you kind of believed the Bible was true on some level.

Ruslan KD: Yes.

Sean McDowell: You had to be convinced Jesus is God. Were there, were there any certain passages or stories that made you go, "Jesus is God," or was it just reading the whole Bible through a new lens was like, "Wow, this guy is divine"?

Ruslan KD: ... Reading those sections in the, in the book about the deity, and then r- going back and just reading John is like, "Oh, yeah, th- I mean, this is so obvious now."

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: You know? And so yeah, I would, I would say that.

Sean McDowell: John's- I mean, the Book of John is incredible. The deity is all over it, from, "In the beginning was the Word-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... The Word was with God, the Word was God," John 5, John 8, John 10, John 20. Deity is everywhere. All right, so let's... I wanna shift to your channel. I kinda remember when you started on YouTube-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Right away I was like, "Oh, this guy is gonna make waves and make a difference." You could just see it. Over the past year, your channel's grown 226,000 subscribers. I'm curious why you think it's grown. Now, there's one level where you're ambitious- ... Hence your book. You're smart, you're strategic, but you're obviously scratching where people itch. So what is it about who you are that people are drawn to watch it and what you do?

Ruslan KD: I'd like to think that I have made an effort to care about what other people care about. My favorite parts of history class my sophomore year and my senior year, I had a class with a guy named, th-, Mr. Hildago. And I loved history because what Mr. Hildago would do is, almost every day we'd open with current events. We'd, we'd open with what's going on in the world today, the news.

Sean McDowell: Great.

Ruslan KD: And then he would tie that into stuff in history and connect it to stuff in history. And it was always the most, like, just captivating to me, like, "We're gonna talk about something relevant. We're gonna talk about something that, like, is happening right now." And I think that was just something I've always enjoyed. And then, like, when I started leading Bible studies, you have these folks that come in-- that are coming in, and they have all these anxieties and all these worries, and this happened, and that, and 9/11, da, you know, and all these cr- this craziness that's happening. And so we would open with whatever's happening and the concerns- ... And the fears and anxieties that people would have, and then segue into what Scripture has to say about it. And so I think YouTube was just an overflow of that because I just started listening to my audience. Initially, I was on YouTube, and I really didn't even wanna talk about my faith much, because I was a Christian hip-hop artist, and so I was like, "I'm gonna be on here to help Christian hip-hop artists make a living, and pursue their art." So a lot of it was marketing videos and life videos and that sort of stuff. But then, like, my audience, I was doing these weekly review streams of their music. People would send me their music, they would review, and I wasn't, like, the biggest Christian hip-hop artist, but I'd made a living providing for me and my wife and my son. You know, living in Southern California, that's, like-

Sean McDowell: Yeah. [laughs]

Ruslan KD: ... .1% of artists in general, as an independent artist.

Sean McDowell: For sure.

Ruslan KD: And I would just give people advice, and then they started asking me more que- they started asking me about this- ... This thing or that thing, and this scandal, and this, and it... And just trying to like, "Hey, like, how do I process this?" You know? And I re- I remember it was really around the time, I wanna say, of Ravi Zacharias, and people just had-

Sean McDowell: Oh, yeah

Ruslan KD: ... They were just so burdened by it, you know, and just started asking me- ... And I would, I would just, I would just give my opinion on stuff, you know? And, like, that, for whatever reason, resonate with- resonated with people. And then they asked me more, and the end of 2020, during the lockdowns, I was like, "You know what? Let, let me, let me lean into this a bit more." I was already probably active on YouTube for, like, a year and a half. I think I was at maybe 15,000 subscribers, and I was just doing podcast clips, just like this, me and my friends backstage at shows, podcast clips, and then I started doing live streaming. And then I said, "Well, let me combine what people actually want from me- ... And lean into the conversations." I think of the... I think there's a- I think it's in Philippians, where, you know, he says, "Consider others above yourself."

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: Like, "Consider other needs."

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Ruslan KD: And so it's like, if I have a degree of insight based on being in small groups, leading Bible studies for 15 years, let me lean into that expertise and the felt needs of what people are going through.

Sean McDowell: I love hearing that it traces back to a teacher, 'cause I taught high school before I came to Biola, 21 years.

Ruslan KD: Okay.

Sean McDowell: And I would do a lot of days where we'd just pick a news story.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And my angle was, how do we think biblically about this? And there's always some biblical angle- ... But you start with where people are at, a felt need and interest.

Ruslan KD: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Tie it into history, tie it in the Bible. I don't do that on my channel, but I can see the power and significance and importance of approaching things that way. I had no idea there was a backstory. That's, that's cool. So there's a lot of concerns about the Church, and you're addressing issues that are popping up. But if you had to make, like, of a broad sweep of the Evangelical church today, how do you assess it? Like, what are we missing? What do we need to do better in this cultural moment?

Ruslan KD: I think the Evangelical church, which often gets overlapped with conservative Christians, whether for good or for bad-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, [chuckles] agreed

Ruslan KD: ... Lacks vision for how we are to serve the marginalized- ... And the distraught, globally and locally. And when there's not a clear vision casted for it, the trickle-down effects aren't, aren't good, and so then it bleeds into politics, and it... And, and we can, we can-- not that we are, 'cause I think the data doesn't support this, but we can come off a bit distant, a bit callous, a bit hardened to hurting people and the craziness that the, that this is, this world. And I think if we casted a vision for how to serve people, how to love people, how to lead people, how to be the city on a hill, how to be the salt of the earth, how to be the light of the world, I think if we were more intentional to cast that vision, we would make more progress, I think, in a lot of regards. And so when we, when we haven't or we don't, not... And again, not that we don't do it's just-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Ruslan KD: ... The packaging of these things, then the world will hijack things like charity, and, you know, quote, unquote, "empathy," and all these things which really aren't biblical. Like, like, there's a perversion of how they go about some of these things, and I think, we j- we just haven't been clear, and we haven't casted that vision. And so then when that overlaps with... Which I am conservative. I've, I've grown way more conservative. I've felt very pushed to the right the last couple years. When that overlaps with politics, I think, um-... You know, you're talking about, like, the harshness of how capitalism can come off, the harshness of how, like, "Hey, we're, we're going- no, we are gonna legislate morality, and we don't care what you think about it," right? Like, that can come off very callous to people who are, who are blind and don't have ears to hear, eyes to see. So I think what we could do better, in my opinion- ... Is cast a vision for love, unity, charity, beauty, goodness, and hopefully be known more by the things we're for and not by the things we're against.

Sean McDowell: I'm not sure what I expect you to say, but I don't think I expect you to say that, and I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. I'm an apologist, so I'm always talking about how we defend the faith and advance the case. One thing Os Guinness has said is, "If we don't have credibility, it doesn't matter what we say and what we argue for." Well, if we're not doing the things you're talking about, nobody's gonna say, "I wanna be a part of that team, I wanna be a part of that club," because of the hypocrisy that's there. And the other thing that's amazing, it's, it's not like here's some new vision we need today. You're kinda saying, "Let's just go back to actually what Jesus did, [chuckles] what Paul did, what the Bible talks about." I mean, there's been all this discussion recently about diversity, and it's like, okay, diversity is built into the Christian worldview, the character of God, one God, three persons, marriage, heaven of every nation. And so in some ways, we don't really need a new vision. You're saying, "Let's lean into what Jesus really taught and live it out bottom up." Love that. At some point, I'd love to have a conversation what that could look like, to cast that vision, to live that out in the church. Let's come back to it. I got another question for you. There's been a lot of talk recently about kind of the God conversation shifting.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And I think one of the people that really kicked this off was Justin Brierley and his book-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: He kinda pieced some things together.

Ruslan KD: He called that early, man.

Sean McDowell: He called it early-

Ruslan KD: Yeah, shouts to Justin

Sean McDowell: ... And took criticism for it.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But we keep seeing these stories pop up, like Pew Research, some of the nuns at least has slowed down. The one in the UK recently about, I think it was, I had to count, a decade or two ago, like 4% of 16 to 20-year-old, 24-year-olds went to church. Now it's, like, 16%. We're seeing these conversions, like on Ayan Hirsi Ali. Do you sense... Do you agree with that, given where you're at? Are you sensing a new openness in spiritual things and God compared to the new atheists in the past?

Ruslan KD: I would say with Gen Z, yes. I'd say with Gen Z, yes, because data- one, the data shows it, right? I wanna say, is it 48% of Gen Z is Jesus curious or open to Jesus?

Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's right.

Ruslan KD: That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people. I would say with my generation, millennials, I think they have backdoored so many interesting things around worldview and ideology with Christianity, that, like, when they leave the church, they go the opposite extreme. They swing all the way to a very, in my opinion, disoriented, deconstructed, incoherent framework sometimes, not all the time. And but I think Gen Z has not been as corrupted by some of the cultural issues as the millennials have been. And again, I'm, I'm not trying to... People have struggled with the faith for as long as there's been Christianity, right?

Sean McDowell: They always will. [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: The, the... What is it? What is the phrase? The, the dark, the soul, the crisis of the soul.

Sean McDowell: Dark night of the soul.

Ruslan KD: The dark night of the soul-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... Right. But, but I think millennials g- really went through it 2016 to 2020.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Ruslan KD: And so now the Gen Z, they don't have that same baggage, and so they're just looking at Jesus and the claims of Jesus. And, yes, that does impact other things, and they seem to at least acknowledge that it's a more coherent and functional framework of the world. And that, and that brings me a lot of hope. So is there a massive revival happening and all these sorts of things? I don't know. I mean, I will say, like, when I'm, when I'm seeing Brandon Lake and Phil Wickham in stadiums, and I'm seeing Forrest Frank, you know, be in arenas with 12,000 people on weekdays, something seems to be shifting. You know, something seems to be shifting, and I think that folks have... You know, the, these generations, like the Gen Z, like, they're the most marketed to generation, and I think they're just tired of, like, repeatedly being told or indirectly told that, like, "Hey, like, you're just a highly evolved animal in heat, and, like, you just need to, you know, go at the whim of your most primal urges, and, like, that's what you're supposed to do." I think they go, "Ah, there's something deeper here. There's something more transcendent." "There's something more beautiful than just, like, let me just live my most primal instincts." And, and I, and I, and I like that, and they're willing to lean in and ask the hard questions. So I get that sense from Gen Z, yeah.

Sean McDowell: The Volume 3 Barna study on Gen Z, if I remember correctly, it's about half of Gen Z-ers haven't been to church in the past year.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Now, someone can interpret that as a lack of spiritual curiosity. I think they're curious, but they're not going to the traditional routes that just go to church that others have in the past.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I think they lack the bad experience with the Church in some ways- ... That previous generations did. Some of the deconstruction movement-

Ruslan KD: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... And some of the stuff you're talking about is reacting to bad experiences. I don't think they have that bad experience, but also the lack of knowledge in the Church.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And hence, you're right, I think that other study by Barna about spiritual openness is like, this is an open, curious generation. I'm not gonna call it revival- ... But I do sense an openness and an interest in my, in my experience as well.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: One of the things I love about you, Ruslan, is you're willing to talk with people who see the world differently than you do.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I do this a lot. Sometimes [chuckles] I take criticism for it, whether it's progressive Christians, atheists, agnostics, you name it, looking for common ground. Why do you prioritize those conversations?... And what's your goal when you bring on people, not just Christians who differ over whatever theological issue, people with a completely different worldview?

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Why do you prioritize that?

Ruslan KD: I think there's utility in hopefully highlighting how we can disagree with people. I don't always do it perfect. I-

Sean McDowell: Me neither, for the record.

Ruslan KD: I sometimes, you know, I sometimes crash out on people, unfortunately.

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: You know, the Alex O'Connor moment wasn't my best, uh-

Sean McDowell: I loved that interview.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I don't even remember... You don't have to- we don't have to revisit it, but I love that you had him on-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... After the Wes Huff thing.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And I remember you guys pushed back and disagreed-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... But you got huge kudos to me just for doing that.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, I think that, I think that would've been... I think that would've went better in person. I think we would've had a much better conversation in person.

Sean McDowell: I could, I could see that, yeah.

Ruslan KD: 'Cause he was irritated, and I was irritated w- that he was irritated.

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: Anyway, but yeah, I think there's utility in hopefully demonstrating how to have these conversations-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... Because people are having these conversations at Thanksgiving dinner. They're having these conversations- ... At Christmas dinner. They're, they're, they're, they're most people are around folks they disagree with, and so I think there's utility in that. I also think there's cautionary tales that we can learn from- ... The folks that have deconstructed and deconverted. And again, and I don't wanna hypergeneralize and say that all of it is invalid or anything like that, right?

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Ruslan KD: But I think there is utility. So, like, one of my... Honestly, one of my favorite people to talk to, and I, and I do consider this dude a friend, is, like, Tim from The New Evangelicals. Like, I really liked him. He's a good hang, and I think there's a lot to learn in terms of, like, what shifted and what caused him to go the progressive direction. I think, my friend, Heliocentric, right, the atheist, church, amazing... Just, just a good dude. We hang out, and I really love talking to him because, again, like, how does someone go from, like, on-fire Christian to, like, "I'm an atheist," and not, like, not just an atheist, like, they're, like, a materialist. I'm, I'm so intrigued by that, you know? Yet his posture is he's very church-friendly, you know. His... He, he likes Christians, right? So I think that there's value in just having those conversations and hopefully learning from them to maybe help people avoid some of the things that they experienced- ... To the best of our control, right? So that we don't, we don't have to go through another mass, like, deconstruction era like we saw happen in that 2018 to 2021- ... Window of time.

Sean McDowell: I agree with those two. And number one, in terms of modeling a conversation, what it looks like, agreeing, disagreeing, and be willing to learn from people who see the world differently.

Ruslan KD: Yep.

Sean McDowell: You and I have had this conversation off-air about who we platform- ... And who we don't platform. I have a certain system that I kind of work through.

Ruslan KD: Okay, you're gonna have to tell me that-

Sean McDowell: And, um-

Ruslan KD: ... 'cause I need some guidance. [laughing]

Sean McDowell: I... Well, I'm not saying I got it figured out. We could come back to that.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And, you know, I've made mistakes like everybody has, for and against, and I don't think there's any perfect way to do it. But I'd be curious, just when you think about... I mean, you've platformed some controversial people- ... Christians and non-Christians. What are at least some of the principles or thoughts that go through your mind when you're gonna platform someone?

Ruslan KD: I think I try to ask, like, "Is, is this a good-faith person? Like, are we gonna have a good-faith conversation, or are they going to assume the worst about my motives, assume the most, the worst about what I represent?" "Uh, or are they gonna be open to it and, at the very least, try and be charitable?" So I think that's, that's one of them.

Sean McDowell: That's fair.

Ruslan KD: I think I ask, "Can a conversation be fruitful? Can a conversation be edifying?" 'Cause, 'cause sometimes you might run into someone, but there might not be a... It may not be fruitful for people. [lips smack] I think... I'm, I'm also curious, like, is this interesting? Is this person interesting? Is there something going on here that's interesting? And then lately, I've also just been really trying to reevaluate of like, is this j- is this a means to some sort of PR fixing? Is this a means 'cause they want access to my audience, and that, and that's as shallow as it goes, right? I'll have people on that are atheist, agnostic, that I actually consider friends, like, I talk to outside of all this YouTube stuff. But I think sometimes people are reaching out, and it's like, "Hey, like, we just we just wanna be on here because of this PR campaign we're doing." And that, I think, is, Yeah, I don't think that's helpful. And then I'll say... And then also, like, if I push on this p- if I push back on this person, are they willing to, like, take it, you know? And, and are they willing to be challenged, or are they gonna melt down and just completely collapse under any degree of pressure? 'Cause I think that the tension in those conversations, I think, is also helpful. You know, and so recently I had a conversation- ... With Sam Collier, who's a pastor that went through a pretty massive scandal- ... While being a pastor, got divorced, and it was pretty messy. And we had, like, a real conversation of like, "Oh, like, dude, are you disqualified?" You know, and I had to sit across from him and tell him, like-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Ruslan KD: ... "I wouldn't go to your church." "Like, I wouldn't sit under your leadership," ... You know? And not that I, not that I think, like, divorce in every single circumstance is always a disqualifier for ministry, but, in this context, like, you kind of went through it, and I, and I had to challenge him on that. But, like, even the appearance of like, "Hey, you're bringing on a pastor, ex-Hillsong guy, who went through a public divorce, really wild allegations, both parts on, you know, with the..." is that, is that interesting, and can that person take it? And Sam took it like a champ, you know? He, he leaned into the tension, and he-

Sean McDowell: Did he know going in you were gonna press him like that?

Ruslan KD: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we had-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's fair

Ruslan KD: ... We had a dinner, and I'm like-

Sean McDowell: That's fair

Ruslan KD: ... "Hey, like, I'm not..." And I'm, and I'm pulling up the scriptures, like, "Hey, man, like, [laughing] Titus, like, Timothy, like, I-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... Like, how do you, how do you rationalize this? Like, it seems like there's a standard"- "... And I'm not saying you, God can't use you. I think God uses women preachers, too. I think God or women pa- like, God uses all sorts of people." And so that was, like, a good conversation, and he, and he took it like a champ, and, you know, he was very gracious and, But, like, even that conversation is like, how can you talk to the... And it's like, why would we not want to talk to a person that went through this- ... Had the massive blowout, and how do we not, how can we not learn from something like this? You know?

Sean McDowell: Good stuff. I got one or two more for you before we jump into your book.

Ruslan KD: Yep.

Sean McDowell: ... What are the questions-- people ask me all the time, especially youth pastors, teachers, they're like: "What are the questions Gen Z and Gen Alpha are asking?" I've got my answer based on where I think the data points and just my experience.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: What, what questions do you sense tend to be biggest for, like, maybe college age and down or high school and down?

Ruslan KD: I think questions around sexuality.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: High percentage of Gen Z is identifying as a part of the LGTB... I call it, sorry, I call it-

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: -LGTB encoded, L- LGBQIU.

Sean McDowell: LGTB [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: And, you know, the tricky part about that is just like that Q, like, that Q kind of means whatever.

Sean McDowell: It does.

Ruslan KD: Like, it's just-

Sean McDowell: Questioning, queer.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, it's just like a junk drawer term.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: You know? And so I wonder how much of that is, like, these people are actually dealing with same-sex attraction in some way, shape, or form, versus like, "I don't know how I feel about..." Right? And um-

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Ruslan KD: So anyway, I think a high percentage of them are dealing with that.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Ruslan KD: They have questions about that. Why does the Bible forbid these sorts of relations? What does that practically look like? What about my friends? Okay, right, I think there's real questions that they're asking.

Sean McDowell: Agreed.

Ruslan KD: And then how does... Like, how does that practically look of like, "Hey, like, I'm gonna come to faith in Jesus, but, like, wait, I can't have sex with my girlfriend? Wait, I can't look at porn? Wait, I, like, you're telling me that, like, even masturbating is... What?" You know, I think those are real questions they have- ... Because we live in such a hyper-sexualized culture. And the interesting thing about Gen Z is when I looked at the number, though they're the highest percentage that identify as a part of that community, they're some of the least sexually active. So, like, the data is, like-

Sean McDowell: Physically sexually active.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, physically.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: It's, it's the weirdest thing.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: And so, I think they have a lot of questions about that. I think there's a lot of questions about politics, you know, if I'm honest, and- ... And that makes me uncomfortable. Because, again, as someone that, like, I'm kind of out- I've been, like, a centrist guy, sometimes center-left, sometimes center-right, and I've personally felt pushed in the right, you know? And there's, like, legitimate questions of like, "Hey, man, like, the guys you Evangelicals kind of all got behind, he's kind of a questionable dude, you know? And he has some- ... Serious things that have been said about him. There's some serious stuff that been, that's been impressed about. There's some stuff he's, he said and came out of his mouth." how do you reconcile that as a Christian? Like, I think that's a legit question, you know.

Sean McDowell: Fair. It's totally fair.

Ruslan KD: And so I think that's one. And I think that's the age-old, like, the conversation of hell is always going to come up, and how do we- ... Navigate that? "And you mean to tell me that people who've never heard about Jesus are going to hell by default?" Like, I think that's a conversation.

Sean McDowell: Hell and, hell and evil are kind of the-

Ruslan KD: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Flip side-

Ruslan KD: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Just suffering, problem in the world-

Ruslan KD: Yep, yep

Sean McDowell: ... God's judgment-

Ruslan KD: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Which you-- those are kind of timeless questions I think people-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Will always ask.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: No, that's fair. That's a great, that's a great response.

Ruslan KD: Yeah. I can keep going.

Sean McDowell: No.

Ruslan KD: There's... I think they got a lot of questions. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: Good. No, that's, that's awesome.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's really, that's really helpful.

Ruslan KD: Yep.

Sean McDowell: So you started kind of one of the impetus, impetuses, I don't even know if that's a word-

Ruslan KD: It's a word for this podcast

Sean McDowell: ... It is now.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: To start was kind of the Ravi Zacharias scandal.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: That one was heartbreaking- ... On so many levels, just devastating, especially as an apologist [chuckles] to me and so many friends and relationships at RZIM. Unfortunately, that wasn't the last one. They just keep coming- ... And it's discouraging, and it's devastating, and it's the kind of people I go, "Well, it'll never be that person," so I just don't even [chuckles] literally say that anymore.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Do you have a sense of why you think this is happening, what we can learn from it, how we can better respond, maybe a caution for leaders going into... 'Cause I don't think any of these people went into it saying they wanted to fall. So what's your sense of why this is happening, what we should learn from it, what we could do better?

Ruslan KD: Okay, so I'm gonna read this verse, and I think this is what the book's about, but I think this is the antidote to a lot of what we're seeing happening.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Ruslan KD: Okay, so First Thessalonians 4, Paul's writing the church in Thessalonica. They're going through a, persecution's breaking out, and they're kind of coasting. So they're, they're, they're, they're becoming apathetic, right? And so that, the, "a man who not work out not eat," that's from, I think, Second Thessalonians, right? So Paul tells them this in First Thessalonians 4:11: "And make it your ambition to lead a quiet life. You should mind your own business- ... Work with your own hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life- ... May win the respect of outsiders, and so that you will not be dependent on anyone." So I think there's so much here with what, like, what is a quiet life? 'Cause I think people think quiet life, and they mean... They think, "Be quiet." like, I don't think that's what a quiet life means. But I do think it means- ... Live in a way where you aren't the main character of your world. Live in a way where you're, you have some degree of normalcy, and you have- ... Some anchors in your life that can mitigate you being the superstar, you being the prodigy, you being the savant, you being the guru, right? And I think we've allowed some of this to creep in that, like, main character syndrome that people already kind of naturally have, but then, like, that in our circles has crept in. And so we have a celebrity culture, and there's a difference between, like, hey, you did something excellent, and therefore, God breathed on your platform, and now you're- you have an audience. Versus, like, you're famous for being famous [chuckles] , and then you carry-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... Yourself-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Ruslan KD: ... As someone that's famous. And so, like, the world's big on, like, you're famous for being famous, especially in the last 20 years, and some of that kind of creeps in. So, like, now we have folks that are celebrities, and I think the antidote to that is like, hey, we need to humble ourselves. We just... And, and humility is not the whole... You know, it's not about, it's not thinking less of yourself; it's thinking about yourself less, right? So quiet life, normalcy, rhythms, consistency in your day-to-day. Go outside. Touch grass. Be around community, right? And, like, if someone's in a position of power and leadership, but they don't... They're, they're always traveling. They're ne- they're, they're not at church on Sundays. They don't... They're, they're, they're, they're a star. They're a superstar. Like, I get- ... To be around celebrities, and the thing about celebrities is they got crazy sleeping patterns. They're, they're, they're, they don't stay in the same place for more than a couple days. They're always moving around. There's no rhythm to their days. And, like-... Y- I get it, like, you're kind of- you- a guy like Kanye, like, dude, you just need to wake up in the same place for a year and do the same thing- ... For a year. And, and go deal with your mental health. And so I think, like, when those dynamics creep into Christian circles, we start thinking we're immune. But it's like, nah, dude, like, you can't travel 250 days a year and think you're gonna have a thriving marriage and a, and a flourishing local community of believers that are gonna keep you accountable. Like, I d- I don't think that that's- ... How that works, and so, like, leading a quiet life, I think is huge, right? And, and people will say, like, "Hey, Ruslan," like, "but you're a public figure."

Sean McDowell: Right.

Ruslan KD: And it's like-

Sean McDowell: That's the follow-up [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: ... Yeah, but, like, yes, and anyone that comes to my local city and sees me at church every Sunday, unless I'm preaching at a different church, sees me as accessible, sees me as around, sees me as present, my family's engaged. I'm very immersed in my local community, and I'm- ... And I'm submitted and accountable to people. Sometimes when you remove that, and you're now a beetle in your little circle of whatever, and it, and it's important work that these guys do, I think that's a recipe for disaster. I think when we get into, daily life, right? I think of 1 Peter, right, let your, "Live such good lives among the pagans that your daily life may win them over," right? So, like, that daily life, no, like, our lives are way better testimonies than how- ... Eloquent we are with our speech. And if we're not impacting our neighbor, like, I mean, like, our actual neighbors, and they don't, we don't know our neighbors, but we're out here running around, speaking at conferences and writing books, but our neighbors don't see our lives, like, that's a problem to me. You know? And so I think, like, your daily life may win the respect of outsiders. And then this is the last part, which is, like, so you now w- you will not be dependent on anyone. I think, like, in a desire to build something and outsource everything, sometimes people don't do anything anymore because they've outsourced it.

Sean McDowell: Oh, interesting.

Ruslan KD: They got an assistant, they got this person, they got... And it's like-

Sean McDowell: Interesting

Ruslan KD: ... What do you even do anymore besides just talk, right? And, and [chuckles] and people have, like-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Ruslan KD: ... You know, alleged, like, "Oh, Ruslan's a professional yapper," right?

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Ruslan KD: It's like, you have no idea how immersed I am into-

Sean McDowell: Oh

Ruslan KD: ... The tech, into the lighting, into the camera angles- ... Into the algorithm. Like, I'm a practitioner first as a YouTuber, and I, and I... And, and because there has to be something that you do where you're not just dependent on outsiders. This is speaking specifically financially dependent on outsiders, but, like, working with your own hands. Like, do you actually do anything- ... Besides just talk and pontificate, you know? And I think that would... If I had to break that down, I think it's those three things. It's like, no quiet life-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... No daily rhythms, too out and about, and there's no, there's no... You don't do anything anymore. You just kind of talk professionally.

Sean McDowell: That's really interesting. I could, I could pull on each one of those. I... Growing up with a dad who still just, you know, huge influence around the world, probably '80s and '90s, one of the most recognizable Christian figures. Everywhere we went- ... People would recognize him, and that was great. That was awesome, but I saw how hard he worked. I saw the cost- ... That when you have a platform, the criticism you take, and in some ways, it just stripped me of the illusion of thinking that is going to make you happy. That's what drives a lot of people. If people... You know, and you talk about in your book, you mention how people often recognize you in public.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And there's a part of you that wants recognition to feel worthwhile. That's such a human recognition. I heard James Gunn, obviously the movie creator of, like, Superman and Guardians of the Galaxy, was like, "I just made movies 'cause I wanted to be loved." Like, a powerful moment.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: But you also talk about challenges you mentioned earlier in this interview and in your book, growing up fatherless-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Which can create just such a deep desire, like, "I wanna be recognized and compensate for not having that love from a father." Growing up in poverty, some people think it's just a lack of financial things, but there can be a deep sense of shame that comes with that.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Success, ambition, material goods- ... Can cover up for that and say, "No, I'm not that guy anymore. I'm arrived. I'm successful." So in light of your own experience- ... What did, I wanna know how you mitigate that in your life- ... And what encouragement you would have or warning for those who also come from a sense of brokenness, so they don't be caught in just the negative things that come from worldly ambition.

Ruslan KD: I have a chapter on identity, and I-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... And I talk about how our identity can't just be what the world says we are, the outside in identity. And some, J. Warner Wallace kind of helped me coin some, he coined the language.

Sean McDowell: He's got a great talk on that.

Ruslan KD: He's, he's gave me some good language for it that I didn't put in the book, but I think it's just cleaner. So outside in identity, like what the world says you are, the validation of the world, results that you get. Inside out identity, which is like your subjective whims and feelings about who you are.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: There has to be something else. There has to be something transcendent, he calls a top-down identity, right? And so, like, I am not what I feel I am, and I am not what the world says I am. I'm not my... I'm not just my experiences. I'm actually who Jesus says I am. So if my identity is anchored in who Jesus says that I am, that means I'm not a saint... I'm not a sinner, I'm a saint, right? That I'm the, I'm the righteousness of God, that I am loved, I am welcomed, I am a friend, I am a disciple, I'm a follower. And so when I have a top-down identity, then the validation isn't needed from the world, and I don't need to mitigate my feelings of shame because Jesus deals with all of that. And, and not in a, not in just, like, an abstract sense, but, like, in a, in a tangible way- ... Of meditating on the Scripture, allowing the Scripture to change me, understanding that, hey, it's not just about chasing results, it's about chasing being faithful. Not being famous, but being faithful. And so if I'm committed to being faithful, the results will come. So the, so the warning is folks who just wanna be famous for the sake of being famous, there are worse things than not being successful. [chuckles] Which are being successful at the cost of your soul, right? Being successful at the cost of your faith, being successful at the cost of your marriage. And if folks are just pursuing platform and status and fame- ... As a means in and of itself-... It, man, it is so empty and fleeting-

Sean McDowell: It is

Ruslan KD: ... And shallow. And I love what I get to do, but-

Sean McDowell: I can tell

Ruslan KD: ... It's not, it's not the end-all, be-all. Like, it doesn't, it- like, being a dad is way cooler than being a YouTuber. Being a husband is way more fulfilling than speaking on stages. And that I think has to remain, like, the... My first ministry is my home. That's, at the end of the day, is what I'm... You know, hey, Bible verses during dinner, rose and thorn, traditions, trying to be immersed in that. And, like, if we're just pursuing platform and status, man, that- it usually will come at the, at the cost of that. And so that's kind of how I think about it- ... Is, like, man, it's, it's, it's, n- it's not at all it's cracked up to be, and it- and there's a weight and a, and a heaviness that comes with it. And, that's probably the way it should be. Like, you should feel like this is something that, you shouldn't, you shouldn't dabble with, and it, you... You know, I know folks that become famous really quick accidentally. [exhales] It's, it's, it's a weight that they carry. And I'm just, I'm grateful that, like, God didn't really breathe on what I was doing until I was 35, 36 years old- ... You know, in terms of, like, status, influence, access to money. That stuff didn't come until later. I'm, you know, 12 years married at that point, like I'm 17 years married now, and, I'm grateful. Like, I'm grateful- ... That it was a very slow rise. And even now, like, yeah, just there's just so much- there's other things that come with it that people don't factor in.

Sean McDowell: I totally agree with that, by the way. So your book, Godly Ambition, you sent me an early copy, endorsed it, loved it. Around the same time-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... The book The Cost of Ambition-

Ruslan KD: Uh-huh

Sean McDowell: ... Comes out. I'm sure you've seen this. Miroslav Volf, a friend of Biola, did a class with him, fantastic Yale theologian, probably one of the leading public theologians-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Of our day. I thought, how interesting. [laughing] You know, here's me-

Ruslan KD: Maybe me and him could get together and, uh-

Sean McDowell: That would-

Ruslan KD: ... Hash it out. [laughing]

Sean McDowell: That would be a great conversation. But really, it... You don't so much differ.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: What you're saying, as I understand it, like, ambition is something from God. Here's ways to use it wisely and steward the gifts.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: He's not saying ambition is bad.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: He's saying it's really when we have an ambition, and we strive to be superior to other people-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... As opposed to excellence. But you're coming at it in the sense of, here's how we use ambition.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: He's like, "I have seen it abused"- ... "time out."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So I don't think it's opposite, it's different concerns. And he's like... One of the things he said in his book, he's like, "We see ambition literally everywhere- ... If you just open your eyes up." He's like, "I'm walking through the airport, and that guy's walking faster than I am." "That guy has better shoes." [laughing] Like, we just... It's literally everywhere-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... In the church.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And so given our sinful natures, our own insecurities-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... And the amount of failures we've seen of people trying to be ambitious-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... And it affects them-

Ruslan KD: Uh-huh

Sean McDowell: ... Why not just live quiet lives-

Ruslan KD: Uh-huh

Sean McDowell: ... In the sense of not playing by the playbook of the world and saying, "I'm just gonna love my neighbor, be good at work, and not even step into this when it can cause so much damage"?

Ruslan KD: I, because I think Jesus is calling us to more. And I don't mean more materialism and more stuff. I don't think that's what it is. I think Jesus is calling us more with faithfulness, with stewardship, with management. I think Jesus is calling us more with impact. I think Jesus is calling w- calling us more to virtue. And if the pursuit is like, "I'm just gonna coast, I'm just gonna throw it in cruise control," or worse, "I'm gonna punt it. I'm gonna punt it, 'cause the world's going to hell in a handbasket, and I can't wait for Jesus to return next Thursday," w- how are we salt, and how are we light, and how are we ushering in God's ways- ... And God's, God's beauty on this side of eternity? And so I think there's a reorienting of ambition away from a worldly standpoint that I'm trying to do, right? So there's two different words for ambition in the Greek. One of them is the erithia ambition, the selfish, the clobbering, the probably what we would acknowledge as in our society and in our culture, right? Like, a, "I'm sizing people up. I'm gonna..." Right?

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Ruslan KD: Like, superiority complex. The Scripture absolutely forbids that. That's when we see selfish ambition, it's usually referring to that. But the ambition that 1 Thessalonians talks about, the ambition that Paul writes about, where he says, "I make it my ambition to preach the gospel where others haven't. I make it my ambition to please God," right? So, so it's interesting, that's a different word. I'm gonna butcher the Greek. It's philio, philiomonte, I think, and when I was talking to Wes Huff, he broke down the etymology of it and said that-

Sean McDowell: I'm sure he did, [laughing]

Ruslan KD: ... There's a, the philio is like a, like Philadelphia, like the brotherly-

Sean McDowell: The love, yeah

Ruslan KD: ... The, like, it's, it's an ambition out of-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... The love for people-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... Out of an aspiration to serve people. And we see that exhibited in Luke, where, at the Last Supper, Jesus washes their feet. He says, "One of you guys are gonna betray me." He's about to go to the cross, and what do they do? They start arguing about who's going to be the greatest. Who's gonna be the greatest, who's gonna be... And it's like, dude, first of all, like, I mean, come on, like, just completely misreading the room-

Sean McDowell: Totally

Ruslan KD: ... Right? [laughing]

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: And this isn't the first time they've had this argument. They've had this argument multiple times-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Ruslan KD: ... About who's gonna be the greatest. They're still expecting a political Messiah. Right? And in Luke 22, Jesus does something really interesting. He doesn't rebuke their desire for greatness. He doesn't, which he could have done. He rebuked Peter, right? But he doesn't rebuke their desire for greatness. He had no problem rebuking people. He doesn't reject it. He doesn't say, "You dumb people, you're doing... What are you doing?" Right? He redefines what greatness is, and then he redirects it towards serving people. "He who wants to be great ought to be the biggest servant of them all," right? "I came with you- I came to you as one who's willing to serve." And when I see that, I go, "Okay, that's it," like the pathway, the, like, the pathway to greatness and the pathway towards godly ambition is service-... It's stewardship- -and it's sanctification. Like, it's walking through those things in a way that's, that encompasses the beauty and the goodness of what we're supposed to do here on this side of eternity.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: And so why not just coast? It is because we have some work to do here, right? And that's controversial, 'cause w- us Protestants, we're like, "Oh-

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: ... Don't talk about works! I don't wanna hear about... Where's work salvation?"

Sean McDowell: Well, the Protestant work ethic, let's go, man.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, a Pr- hello, Protestant work ethic, right?

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: And so yeah, I th- I think that's why.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: Like, I think, I think we have some work to do here now, and that is a good thing, and that the, we don't, we don't work for grace, we work from grace. And there's also people that... There's also... Okay, this is gonna get more practical and controversial. People love to quote 1 Timothy 6, right, "For the love of money is the root of all evil," right?

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: They skip 1 Timothy 5, which the Apostle Paul is writing, and he's telling them, "He who does not provide for the needs of his family- ... Specifically his immediate family, is worse- ... Than a non-believer and has denied the faith." That's one of the most horrifying s- passages in Scripture.

Sean McDowell: That's pretty scary, [laughing] actually.

Ruslan KD: If you, if you, if you're a young man, and it's like, "Hey, man, you c- you can't provide for your fa-" And w- so and what was that in context, though? That wasn't just in context of like, "Hey, like, me and my wife both work, and we ship our kids off to public school," and right?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: Like, no, that's about widows. So he's talking about taking care of the widows in the church- ... Who the, who can't remarry. And if they have family, like, you need to take care of your old folks. Like, you need to care for the folks around you and not ship them off to homes like we are so prone to do, right? Multi-generational living. And so if we are, if we're not extracting that... And then it says specifically your immediate family, right? So if there's no godly ambition, explain to me how we take care of our extended family and our immediate family. Explain to me how, in a time where the wealth disparity is just increasing, the housing market is crazy, it's very difficult for people-

Sean McDowell: It is.

Ruslan KD: How... And I'm not saying everyone is gonna be successful and name it, claim it, blab it, grab it. But if we're not helping and equipping young men to say- ... "Hey, I gotta, I- like, I'm a provider, and I'm gonna figure this thing out, and I'm gonna put my head down," if we're not equipping people to do that, it- they're gonna- ... Have a rude awakening when they're 28, 29, 30, and they have a kid. And, and their wives, which by the way, the vast majority of women prefer to stay home. Not Christian women, not conservative women. Women with kids prefer to stay home, at least for a season. This is Forbes Magazine. This is, multiple studies done on this, secular studies. What do you- what is gonna happen to these folks when they're 30 and they didn't develop any useful skills?

Sean McDowell: Oh, I hear ya.

Ruslan KD: And they didn't get educated-

Sean McDowell: I hear ya.

Ruslan KD: ... And they're, and they're not an asset, they're a liability to their employer? Like, so that's what I mean. Like, so it's like, I think, respectfully, I think some of this "don't be ambitious" comes from a very privileged standpoint. I think some of this, like, "You need to learn to Sabbath better"- ... Easy for you to say, Mr. 45-year-old multimillionaire. Uh-huh. Yeah, so I al- I get irritated when people are like- ... "I've, I've made it, but, like, we lose down here. I have a $10, $15 million net worth. We lose down here," you know? And it's like, dude, that's not what young men need to hear. Like, young men, young men need to be told that, like, because Jesus loves them and just transformed them, that they can become the type of person- ... That can impact society, culture, and lead a family well.

Sean McDowell: And I think this generation, especially of boys and young men, are eager for that message. "You can make a difference. You have worth."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: "Go for it."

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And I think that's partly why your channel resonates, and I think why your book will. By the way, Volf is not saying don't be ambitious.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: He's very ambitious. He's just saying there's warnings that come along with it.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And you talk about those in your book, too.

Ruslan KD: Let me, let me just, 'cause you, 'cause you're right on.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: But let me just poke on something real quick.

Sean McDowell: Do it.

Ruslan KD: The... What inspired this book, and I'll tell you who this is offline, and c- people can piece it together. Several years ago, I saw a viral video clip on Facebook that was titled All Ambition is Evil.

Sean McDowell: Wow!

Ruslan KD: The person is reading the text that says, "Selfish ambition." He keeps skipping the word selfish- ... Goes on to call ambition demonic, while ironically standing on a well-lit stage in a beautifully assembled-

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: ... Outfit, with amazing camera angles and a social media team-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Ruslan KD: ... That clipped this together to make it, to, knowing this would go viral.

Sean McDowell: To make it...

Ruslan KD: How dare you?

Sean McDowell: That's ridiculous.

Ruslan KD: Like, how dare you tell that to people while exhibiting ambition? Like, the irony of something like that. So I'm not speaking about your friend, but I do think that there are people that have called ambition demon- the world calls it god, and the world says, "Go after it," and then the church goes, "It's demonic, and it's satanic, and it's evil." And it's like, man, that, there's a better way forward. There's a third option that's better.

Sean McDowell: Totally fair. That's not his point. Here's an example of one thing that he draws out-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Is that he says, his concern with ungodly ambition-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Not godly ambition-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Is that it can c- it can naturally build, in a sense, where we see people as pegs to our achievement and possession and success, rather than image-bearers. And I see this. Sometimes the way people treat me, I'm like, "Oh, I see the- ... Angle that's going on here," because maybe I have a platform or whatever I do. I'm sure you see that with you as well. And honestly, I catch myself sometimes, I'm like, "Man, am I treating that person differently because I can get something from them, rather than somebody, made in the image of God, I can't get anything from?" And my parents often told me, you know, their dating advice was, like, "Watch how somebody treats somebody- ... Who you can get nothing from. That tells you their character."

Ruslan KD: That's good.

Sean McDowell: And so partly what he's saying is this sense of striving-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Can lead us to dehumanize people and use them, rather than value them. So what safeguards can we put in place when it's like, "I wanna succeed-

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: ... I wanna make a difference, I wanna have godly ambition"-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... But I don't wanna use people-

Ruslan KD: That's good.

Sean McDowell: I wanna love people.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, I think, one, there's- I have a chapter in there on prayer, 'cause I think prayer is-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Ruslan KD: ... Is essential to all of this, right? A consistent rhythm of prayer, and not just prayer for your own dreams and goals. Like, I start prayer off with praise, and then- ... I pray for other people before I ever pray for myself. So I'm constantly thinking about other people. I think in a healthy local church community where you are positioning yourself to serve and not just contribute... Excuse me, serve and not just consume, but contribute, that forces you to walk through the process of, like, "I'm not the center of the universe," kill the main character syndrome. Let me consume myself with serving other people. So I think that that's a way to do it. And then ultimately, like, when I'm meeting people, I'm genuinely asking myself, "How can I help this person? How can I serve this person? What do, what do they actually want? What are they after," right? "And, and what can I do to be a blessing to them," right? And sometimes it's like, "Nothing. I got nothing for you." Other times, it's like, "What do you want? Oh, you know, you wanna come on my podcast? Okay, you might come on my podcast, and it may not- it's not gonna do what you think it's gonna do."

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: Right?

Sean McDowell: That's true.

Ruslan KD: Right? It's like-

Sean McDowell: Oh, no, this podcast will do what you think it will-

Ruslan KD: Yeah, [laughing]

Sean McDowell: ... Just for the record.

Ruslan KD: No, but I mean-

Sean McDowell: Prepare yourself. [laughing]

Ruslan KD: I mean, I mean, think of, think of how often... I'm sure this happens to you, is, like, people are like, "Hey, like, if I could just end up on your thing-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Ruslan KD: ... Then my thing will po-" And it's like, that's not how any of this works.

Sean McDowell: It doesn't work that way.

Ruslan KD: You know?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: And so I'm... But I'm always trying to consider, like, what do people want, and can I help, you know? And, and the 99.9% of people that I meet, man, they just, they just want some affirmation, encouragement. They might have a question or two. They need some prayer. I was leaving-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Ruslan KD: ... The Apple Store yesterday. A guy walks up to me, tears in his eyes. "Hey, man, like, I'm going through a breakup. Your content has blessed me." you know, and he, and he's- he can't even-

Sean McDowell: Praise the Lord, man

Ruslan KD: ... Can't even speak. And, like, in that moment, he just needs... He just needed prayer. He needed prayer, he needed encouragement. I invited him to our free live event that we're doing during the book launch at my church. "What church are you in? Who are you connected to? How's it going? How do you like working here?" And so I think letting, like, really serving people, I think, is a great way to anchor. And that, and that requires- ... Us to ask questions. 'Cause sometimes people don't know how to ask questions. It's like, you just, again, main character syndrome. But stopping and slowing down and asking questions. So those are, I think, a few of the safeguards that, like, hey, it- ... Anchor your life in prayer, plug into a local church, and serve. Don't just be a contri- a consumer, be a contributor. And then I think, like, when you meet people, figure out what do they need and what do they want, and can you help them do the thing? We can't help everybody. We're not gonna change everybody's lives, but we can do little things that can radically move someone's day. Like, someone's day can be impacted, 'cause they had an interaction with you know?

Sean McDowell: You know, teaching high school for me for years, I'd like to think, helped built some of this in, because I was a youth pastor before, and I showed up in high school teaching Bible, and I thought, "These kids are gonna love me. I'm young, I'm dynamic." And it's like, "We don't care who you are."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: "We don't give a rip about that stuff. Is your class interesting and relevant?" I had a kid go, "What do I have to do to get a C-minus in your class?"

Ruslan KD: [laughing]

Sean McDowell: Which is like-

Ruslan KD: Wrong question. [laughing]

Sean McDowell: I know, but, like... And then he came back later and wa- you know, we had a great conversation.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But it's just... I wanna emphasize for people watching, that just doing things in life where people don't know or care who you are- ... You're just reminded. So you're not just talking about issues-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... But doing it.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Like, when I was teaching in high school, it was really interesting. I'd show up, and I'd do a retreat at a place. But then when I'm at a Christian school, and I'd see people show up and give a retreat, and then hear the students process it, I was like, "Oh- ... This is very different." "I'm getting kind of an inside scoop here." So one of my big encouragements to people who wanna be influencers, you know, whatever that means, and why, is like: Why do you wanna do it?

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: How are we gonna use your platform? And are you just doing things outside of this, where people don't know or care who you are?

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Hopefully, that's gonna build in some accountability that's there.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So a question [chuckles] I also want to ask you, people ask me this all the time, and I've got my answer for it, but how do you get so much done, Ruslan? Like, what's your secret, man? [laughing] You're pumping out, I don't know, four videos a week. You're working out. You're doing all this stuff. I'm like, "Dude, how is he so..." I don't even know the word to use, but, like, just so efficient and knocking out so much stuff?

Ruslan KD: I would like to think that it's the systems that we build in our day-to-day lives, in our day-to-day rhythms. My... I attempt to break my weeks and my days down into non-negotiables. And so weekly non-negotiable is, like, "Hey, I'm, I'm going to go to church," non-negotiable. Man, the Catholics and the Orthodox sometimes get it right, where isn't it like a... It's, like, a serious sin if you miss church without good reason.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: What is the, what is the word, right? I can't think of the word. But yeah, non-negotiable, like- ... Church is non-negotiable. I get to be in a group of young men, not young men, we're not young anymore, men our age.

Sean McDowell: Y- how old are you?

Ruslan KD: I'm 40 now.

Sean McDowell: You're a young man. [laughing]

Ruslan KD: Yeah. [laughing]

Sean McDowell: I'm 49. I'm turning 50-

Ruslan KD: Wow, you-

Sean McDowell: ... In 2026, man

Ruslan KD: I was just talking to Alan Parr, and he told me he's turning 50.

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: Man, you guys look great for 50. So, like, access to community, I think helps a ton, and so those non-negotiables. So daily non-ne- I just break my day down in daily non-negotiables, right? So James Clear has a quote. He says, "You don't rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems." If you don't have... If you could have all the goals in the world, you can... I wanna- but if you don't have those daily systems- ... Then it all falls apart. And so for me, I spend less time trying to have goals. Like, I don't have 1 million subscribers by this month, or I wanna make this m- I don't have those sorts of goals. I say, "Hey, I'm gonna do the inputs consistently enough that would get me in the ballpark of set goals," but God has to ultimately breathe on those things. God has to make those things happen.

Sean McDowell: Amen to that.

Ruslan KD: Right, like, I can't-... Control if this book becomes a bestseller, right? But I can do the inputs. I c- I can say, "Man, what are, what are the felt needs of the people I'm speaking to on a regular basis, and how can I write something that can compress time for them?" Something that it took me 15 years to discover, maybe they can do in two years. And if I do that, and I do the inputs, and I, and I, and I, and I do it well, God can breathe on it. He may not breathe on it, right? I can't control all those variables, so I just consume myself with the daily non-negotiables: health, fitness, outside, touch grass, family time, a weekly rhythm of, like, making sure me and my wife have good conversations, we check in-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: We're processing stuff together, right?

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: And I think if we build those non-negotiables, the out- the outcomes will come. I think most people consume too much with the outcomes, or they're doing the wrong non-negotiables. They don't know the inputs to get the outputs, right? And so it's like, if you get the right inputs... So let's just take an example with fitness, right? You and I both know that, hey, man, little micro habits, tracking your food, working out-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Ruslan KD: ... 10,000, 10,000 steps a day-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Ruslan KD: ... Properly training, right?

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Ruslan KD: You do those things long enough, stay in a calorie deficit, you eat the right amount of protein, your body will transform, and I think we underestimate that that is applicable to other areas of life, right? So incremental investments lead to monumental advancements. Little, small investments every single day. You don't gotta be in the gym for three hours a day. 30 minutes a day, efficiently, right amount of protein, six months from now, a year from now, you look like another human. Why do you think that developing that skill that you know you need to make up so you can be more efficient at your craft, why do you think that's any different, right? Why do you think finances and getting out of debt is any different? It's incremental investments, daily little investments, they lead to monumental advancements, and so that's all in our systems. When we were $100,000 in debt, struggling, living paycheck to paycheck, before YouTube, before I made any real money as a Christian musician, me and my wife listened to Dave Ramsey every single day-

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: ... Religiously. We really-

Sean McDowell: Love it

Ruslan KD: ... Drank that Ramsey Kool-Aid.

Sean McDowell: Love it. [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: We did a budget all the time. We put money in a cash envelope system, so we didn't overspend, and we worked our faces off so that when we... We knew, hey, when we have kids, I want my wife to stay at home. When we have kids, we don't wanna be living paycheck to paycheck, and within 18 months, we were debt-free, right? And this is in 2011, right? This isn't, you know, la- like, this stuff is possible. But again, like, our ambitions are zapped, either by the world making ambition God or the church saying it's demonic, and it's bad, and it's evil. But, but we need these, especially if you're coming from poverty. Like, especially if you're coming from- ... Single-parent household, trauma, serious issues that you need to work out-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Ruslan KD: ... If you, if you don't develop those systems, man, it's, it's gonna be hard.

Sean McDowell: Systems is huge. One, one of my, I'd call him my heroes, mentors, friends, William Lane Craig, has just had incredible impact, and his philosophy is like, "I'm just gonna be faithful and disciplined today."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: He's got systems: work out, study the Bible, pray, and just chips away at stuff and is disciplined at that, and over time, you have an impact. So that makes sense. Right, so your book is called Godly Ambition. What about somebody who goes, "Ruslan, godly ambition? I can't even get out of bed." "Like, you're telling me to have godly ambition. I don't even have ambition."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So especially today, there's a lot of people, we're hearing about depression, and anxiety, and mental illness.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: There's books on, like, [chuckles] how to get out of bed. What would you say to somebody if they're still watching this, going, "These guys are talking about trying to change the world, and I c- I mean, I can't even find a job and get out of bed in the morning"?

Ruslan KD: Yeah, I'm gonna be vulnerable, and I'll, I'll, I'll look into the camera and just say, like, I don't know what it's like to deal with chronic anxiety. I don't know what it's like to deal with chronic, crippling depression. I don't wanna speak into something that I don't know. It'd be like you asking me on, like, "Give people advice on how to raise teenagers." It's like, "I don't, I don't have no teenagers. I got nothing for you." [laughing]

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: You know? However, I think sometimes it's latching on to that little bit of hope and saying, "What is the next thing you can do right now?" Maybe it is literally just getting out of bed. Maybe you can get out of bed, but you just need to go on a walk. If you're in Southern California, we get to talk- take walks in the summertime, right? [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Ruslan KD: If you're in other parts of the world, maybe not.

Sean McDowell: Or-

Ruslan KD: Maybe it's going on a walk.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Ruslan KD: Maybe it's, maybe it's, "Hey, I'm gonna pull up a tutorial and learn one thing today," right? So I think it's latching on to that next step, and in that may mean, "Hey, I might need to go see a therapist. Hey, I might need to go deal with this in a way where you might need to take medication for a season." But I would say, what is that one thing you can do? And that one little thing, can lead into another thing, and another thing, and another thing, and then before you know it, the needle moves. But I would, I would be here faking the funk, Sean, if I was like... I've dealt with crippling anxiety where I couldn't get out of bed for months. That, [exhales] that's heavy, and that's something different, and that's something that I think,

Ruslan KD: I think can really debilitate people. And so I would say seek help, seek treatment. I think we need to stop making that a taboo in Christian circles. There are people that need treatment, need therapy, may need medication. I would say... And, and maybe that's the first step, and then from there, it's what can you tangibly do? Is it just going outside and going on a walk? Is it pulling up a tutorial and trying to learn something new? W- baby steps, baby steps, and, um-

Sean McDowell: That's great.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, I don't, I don't... I, ain't got much on this. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: That's fair. No, that's totally fair. I'm not an expert on some of the crippling depression.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: You know, one thing I just would throw in there is, it's true for anybody, like, give ourselves some grace.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Like, just that's the root of the Christian faith. We all need grace in different ways. Sometimes people need grace 'cause it's like, "I just worked too hard- ... And I strove too much."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: The opposite side- ... You just need some grace- [chuckles]

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Because your identity's not rooted in success. It can be on both sides.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Whatever it is-... You know, the other thing I really learned is having a father who's, has been incredibly ambitious in his life.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I still don't know how he spoke at 1,200 universities, 160 books. I mean, just incredible. And for me to survive in terms of what I do is I gave up comparison games a long time ago.

Ruslan KD: That's good.

Sean McDowell: I've no interest in being the next Josh McDowell, whatever. Like, that's a losing game.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I just... I ask myself: What's- what gifts has God given me? What opportunity has He given me, and how do I faithfully keep moving forward and doing better? And that's actually one of the things Volf talks about, is like, "Don't compare yourself to anybody else."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: "Just compare yourself to where you were with the hope that you're moving forward."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And that's some of what you're saying, is just, like, do one thing today and move forward. And so I would definitely say for people who wanna be- who are ambitious and wanna accomplish things, like, don't compare yourself to others. I don't compare myself to you. I don't compare myself to William Lane Craig.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Like, let's celebrate the differences of what people are accomplishing for the Kingdom. I've, I have two more questions for you, and then we'll wrap up. But from the moment I met you, and it feels like it's only been about three years-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Is right away, I remember seeing your channel. I'm like, "I don't know who this guy is. I don't know anything about him," didn't know your music, my bad. Right away, one of the things just struck me as like, "Wow, he's a collaborator."

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: "I wonder if this is genuine," just 'cause I didn't know you.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I mean, the more I probe in, I'm like, "Wow, this guy really is celebrating other people's success." We're at ETS, and you're, like, bringing all the YouTubers together- ... Having a meal, talking, collaborating, "How do we help each other out?" Where does that heart come from? And how can we be better collaborators that celebrate the success of others- ... Rather than be threatened by it- ... Or compare ourselves to them?

Ruslan KD: Collaboration does a couple things for me. One, it eliminates that selfish, competitive spirit where I have to clobber, that selfish ambition.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: So if I'm collaborating, I don't see any of my colleagues as competition. I don't s- I just don't see the world that way. Like, I don't see it in a zero-sum game of like, "If people watch your channel, they'll be less likely to watch my channel." I think there's- ... Enough people out there and enough people that everyone can be successful on these platforms. Now, somebody will say, "Well, that's not how math works," right? [chuckles] Like, I serve a supernatural God of multiplication, you know?

Sean McDowell: It's not a fixed pie.

Ruslan KD: Yes.

Sean McDowell: People are listening to more content-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... In different ways.

Ruslan KD: Yes, yes.

Sean McDowell: You're right.

Ruslan KD: Exactly. So one, I think it anchors me to say, "Let me kill that, like, unhealthy competition- ... That I, that I naturally had as a rapper," that, like, which is... It's very competitive, it's very self-centered. "Let me kill that." I think another thing that it does for me, and is that, I'm not trying to build a cult of personality. I have zero desire to build a cult following, right?

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: Because it... That's not healthy either, and that's the, that's the name of the game in, as an entertainer, is like niche down, cult of personality. You're the guy. You're the niche, right? And so, and then also when I collaborate, it takes the pressure off of me to be the expert because I'm not an expert. I'm... You're the expert in your field. Let me-

Sean McDowell: That makes me nervous, but keep going. [laughing]

Ruslan KD: No, I mean, you're, you're educated. You have your doctorate.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Ruslan KD: You're a professor. I could point to actual experts.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, fair enough.

Ruslan KD: And then that takes the pressure off of me to be this guy that I'm not.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: I don't know anything about manu- I know what Wes Huff tells me, okay?

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Ruslan KD: I don't know anything about manuscripts, right? So I'm gonna point to Wes. I'm gonna say, "Hey, this is really good," you know?

Sean McDowell: That's awesome.

Ruslan KD: "Check him out." Like, so I think when we collaborate, then we can actually lean in and celebrate other people's expertise.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: And this is... I mean, this is a practical hack for people trying to get on social media. Stop trying to be the source of everything and be the expert at 23 years old on TikTok. [chuckles] Highlight some other voices of some other experts, and that takes the pressure off of you to not pretend to be this person that you're not. And so I've, I've just- the more I've gotten into it, I'm like, "Man, I can't do what Mike Winger does." The dude is like... The dude talks like ChatGPT before ChatGPT existed, like 11-hour video on women in ministry.

Sean McDowell: Oh, bro. [laughing]

Ruslan KD: I've never even seen a video that long on YouTube, right? This is crazy. Let me point to him and celebrate him-

Sean McDowell: I agree

Ruslan KD: ... Because he's just wired different. He's like a savant in the way his brain works-

Sean McDowell: He is, yeah

Ruslan KD: ... And he can go deep in hundreds and probably thousands of hours of research on videos. Let me, let me celebrate other people.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: So I think there's, there's very practical things in that, and I think I was so jaded with the Christian rap world, where I came out... Right now, it's much better.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Ruslan KD: But I came out of a very cutthroat com- and this is weird to say about Christian rap, but I came out of this very, like, competitive, ego-driven era, that, like, when I got into this, everyone was just nice and friendly and willing and not, like, holding back compliments, you know? And, and I'm like, "Yeah, like, let me point to other people." I think it serves so many practical things, and I, and I genuinely love our space. Like, there's nothing like our space.

Sean McDowell: Me too, yeah.

Ruslan KD: It's really awesome, and everyone is very kind, and most folks are 100 times better than they are on camera in terms of just how generous they are.

Sean McDowell: I agree.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's my experience.

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: You know, I just think to remember at a camp called Camp of the Woods probably 20 years ago.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: My dad, Frank Turek, and myself were speaking, and when it was done, my dad said, he goes, "My books are in the back, but if you buy one book," he goes, "Buy Frank Turek's book. That's the most important one."

Ruslan KD: Oh.

Sean McDowell: I don't remember what Frank talked on.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I don't even remember what my dad talked on. But that had an impression on me, and I'm not saying I do this perfectly-

Ruslan KD: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... But, like, some of the just competition and criticizing people just, it wears me down.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And there's a time and place to correct. People give me correction, I'm like, "You're right. [chuckles] Learn from that one. Keep going." But, like, cheering people on and collaborating, the enemy is too great to spend too much time not doing that. All right, last question: I'm curious, what are you leaning into on your channel right now, like, moving forward? Like, for me, I-... I'm really convinced that things like near-death experiences, supernatural encounters-

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: -are real, and I don't think a lot of people are doing it carefully and well.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And I think apologetics, afterlife apologetics, is something I'd love to see way more apologists lean into.

Ruslan KD: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: That's one thing I'm focusing on, but tell me one or two things moving forward that you're gonna be focusing on.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, and by the way, we reacted to one of your, near-death experience videos last week, which was great.

Sean McDowell: Oh, nice!

Ruslan KD: Yeah, it was really good.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Ruslan KD: That, that whole conversation was so fascinating. Yeah, I think we're trying to figure out how to integrate some of the chapters from the book into the content, so that way there's a more, there's a more robust experience we're creating for people. So as we're... As the book is coming out, I'm speaking more, I'm preaching at churches, we have the Bless God Summit. We're trying to really integrate some of that into the content and go a little deeper in the practical sense of sanctification, right?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Ruslan KD: Meaning that, like, it's really easy to just, like, boom, hit them with the Gospel. Okay, yes, hit them with the Go- w- every video to me should go back to the Gospel in some way, shape, or form. But I think it's like, hit them with the Gospel, and then, like, what are we saved to? And I'm trying to really integrate that into the conversations. And I think also just being more intentional with good podcasting. Like, I think we're gonna have- ... Really good conversations like this, that are... That I'm spending time, well-researched, going through people's books and trying to drive up, and trying to figure out how to package that in a way that's interesting and intriguing to the audience. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I love it. Well, you're on Instagram. You're on X, right?

Ruslan KD: Yeah, barely. [laughing]

Sean McDowell: You're barely... I was like, "Right,"

Ruslan KD: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I don't remember seeing a ton on there now and then. Your YouTube channel is great. Some of my team, they're like, "We listen to everything he throws out there." The book, Godly Ambition, thanks for giving me the chance, to endorse it.

Ruslan KD: Yeah, thank you for endorsing it.

Sean McDowell: I think it's excellent. Oh, I would highly recommend it. I guess I can say this being maybe a decade older than you, but just really appreciate you, proud of you. Just want to encourage you to keep doing what you're doing. I know you're honoring the Lord and making a difference.

Ruslan KD: Hey, thank you for having me. This was a, this was a surreal moment in many ways- -right? Getting to meet your dad, getting to have this conversation, you endorsing the book. It's been, it's been really humbling, to say the least.

Sean McDowell: Well, Lord willing, this is just the beginning of many more.

Ruslan KD: Amen. [upbeat music]