This Week's Topics:

This Week's Questions:

  • How to hold Empathy and Biblical Teaching when talking with LGBTQ Neighbors
  • Sunday Mornings and Youth Sports



Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] The Catholic Church chooses a new pope, and for the first time ever, it's an American. The Supreme Court hears a case about government funding for a Catholic charter school in Oklahoma. Is this a violation of the separation of church and state or a sign of things to come? There's a new successful argument against transgenderism that Christians need to be aware of, and a wild conversation about race on "The Piers Morgan Show" offers important lessons for Christians today. These are the stories we'll discuss, and we will also address some of your questions. I'm your host, Sean McDowell, and I'm joined by guest host today, Dr. Thaddeus Williams, for the third or maybe fourth time, filling in for the one and only Scott Rae. This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Thad, are you ready to rock and roll, man? There is some breaking news on the Pope-

Thaddeus Williams: [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: ... And I'm eager to know what you think. You ready to rock and roll, buddy?

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, let's do this, man. History was made at 6:07 p.m. On Thursday, May 7th, as white smoke poured from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel, indicating that the, Roman Catholic conclave has, in fact, decided on, a new, leader, a new vicar of, Roman Catholic Christendom. And drum roll, he is American.

Sean McDowell: Right.

Thaddeus Williams: For the first time in thousands, in long over a millennium, we have an American-

Sean McDowell: Ever.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, first one ever-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Thaddeus Williams: ... From, Chicago. So some of the comments I've said- I've read, have said, "Well, finally, we have a pope who understands the importance of the NFL," who's gonna be-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: ... Rooting for the Chicago Bears. Probably, probably a Bulls fan, we'll see. And finally, a pope who understands good pizza. That one's- ... A little more controversial because, I mean, Italy is the pizza hub of planet Earth. But yeah, my take, with Robert Prevost, he's been a missionary, [lips smack] down in Peru for, decades and decades and decades. Right now, the interwebs are exploding with hot takes.

Sean McDowell: [chuckles] That's right.

Thaddeus Williams: And, seems like some folks are saying, you know, in the spirit of Francis, he's just gonna be, the same old left-leaning, progressive, pontiff that we've seen for the last several years. I s- I see some encouraging indicators out there, particularly, his very, strong pro-life, outlook. He says this in one of his, speeches to Peruvian bishops in 2020. He says, "Our elderly are not to be discarded, but cherished as bearers of wisdom and faith, deserving the same love and protection as the youngest among us." So he's highlighting life issues on both ends. And Sean, you and I know that end-of-life issues, physician-assisted suicide, that is and has been a piping hot topic in Western culture-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Thaddeus Williams: ... For the better part of 20 years, and it seems like he's rock solid on that. He goes on in a homily to the suburbicarian diocese of Albano, just earlier this year in 2025. Robert Prevost, now Pope Leo XIII, says: [lips smack] "God's mercy calls us to protect every life, especially those society overlooks, the child yet to be born, and the elderly nearing their journey's end, because each bears Christ's face." So I see encouraging things on, the womb-to-tomb care for life, caring about abortion, caring about end-of-life issues. I also see, he has gone public in, opposing teaching gender ideology to children.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Thaddeus Williams: I think, that's an encouraging sign. He said, Let me just give you a direct quote here. He says, quote, "The g- the promotion of gender ideology is confusing because it seeks to create genders that don't exist." so this is, Pope Leo XIII now, his new moniker, taking a pretty bold stand on gender. He's also, in 2012, he was concerned that Western culture promotes, quote, "Sympathy for beliefs and practices that contradict the gospel."

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Thaddeus Williams: And what did he highlight in particular? The promotion of, quote, "Homosexual lifestyle and alternative families made up of same-sex partners and their adopted children." So in terms of a pope, [lips smack] who has moral clarity on, God's design for sexual flourishing, and moral clarity on, the right to life and precious image-bearers in the womb, and precious image-bearers towards the end of life, I wanna be, cautiously optimistic.

Sean McDowell: That's a good way to put it.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's a great way to put it.

Thaddeus Williams: What's your take?

Sean McDowell: Yeah, so just the smallest slight correction, it's, it's Leo XIV, not XIII-

Thaddeus Williams: XIV

Sean McDowell: ... Just to hold the emails back from folks. [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah. [chuckles] My bad, my bad.

Sean McDowell: These details matter. I guess Leo's the fifth or one of the most popular names that popes have taken throughout history, which is interesting. When I first pulled him up on Twitter, I actually didn't think it was him, because I had way more followers than he did.

Thaddeus Williams: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: I refreshed my browser a few times, and he now dwarfs me, which in some ways, I was like, "You know what? This is a way to grow social media that none of us thought about. Just become pope."

Thaddeus Williams: It's that simple.

Sean McDowell: "It's really that easy-

Thaddeus Williams: It's that simple

Sean McDowell: ... And your social media will grow."

Thaddeus Williams: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Of course, all kidding aside, he's 69 years old.... And, he has a BA in mathematics, and my wife has a degree in mathematics. That is one of the hardest undergrad degrees, so he's clearly [chuckles] smart and intelligent. They- he was elected in two days, which is fast and very quick, given historical precedence. He's a member of the Order of Saint Augustine, so he resembles Francis in his commitment to the poor and migrants, which is interesting. Now, he said this in his opening message, which is on the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica. He said, quote, "We have to seek together to be a missionary church, a church that builds bridges and dialogue." He called on people to show our charity to others and be in dialogue with love. On one level, I love that. You know, my YouTube channel, so much of what I do is, like, listening and building common ground and building dialogue with people.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So I love that he has that posture. I think the question right now is how firm will he be on some of the historic biblical teachings, especially tied to sexuality? I think that's the question that a lot of people have. So the New York Times says it's unclear, and by the way, I'm like, "Okay, it's day two, so of course, it's unclear," whether he will be as open to gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Catholics as Francis was. And of course, this is framed in a way the New York Times would frame it.

Thaddeus Williams: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Although he's not stated much recently, in 2012 address to bishops, again, this is still in the New York Times, he lamented that Western news media and popular culture fostered a, quote, "sympathy for beliefs and practices that are at odds with the gospel." He cited the, quote, "homosexual lifestyle and alternative families compromised of same-sex partners and their adopted children." So it sounds to me, based on what we know so far, that he has a commitment to a biblical sexual ethic and a value for life at the beginning and at the end. That's what it sounds like. Now, I'd actually tell people, it's just @DrPrevost. Go to his Twitter page. He has some really interesting tweets, and the jury still needs to come in. It seems like he's kind of a mix on social issues we don't always see, so he takes what would probably be considered a more left-leaning approach on migrants, on climate change, maybe a more right-leaning approach when it comes to sexuality. That remains to be played out, but it's often rare for somebody to have real compassion that I think we saw with Francis, without compromising biblical truth. Or people that stand for biblical truth often lack that, you know, compassion on the other side. It'll just be interesting to see how this plays out with him.

Thaddeus Williams: Sure.

Sean McDowell: My quick take is, of course, we have to have discernment as any human beings. Like, let's not rush to judgment based [chuckles] on one tweet from this guy. I mean, my goodness, let's have biblical discernment. Obviously, you and I are Protestants. Let's pray for him. We're called to pray for our-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Leaders, and even though I don't think he's the leader of the church, he clearly is the most recognizable, broadly speaking, Christian on the planet, and speaks for-

Thaddeus Williams: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... 1.4 billion Catholics.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We have a lot in common with Catholics on some of the issues we've mentioned and more, so let's be discerning. Let's just slow down a little bit, and let's pray for him. Any other takeaways before we move on?

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah. I was reading, a... I think a mutual friend, Andrew Walker, he's a solid evangelical culture commentator. He, he raises the question, you know, "Why should Protestants give a rip?" You know, we don't hold any, obedience to what happens at the Vatican. And he says it, better than I can. He says, "To be clear, our hope is not in Rome. Our hope is in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone. But in the providence of God, institutions still matter. Institutions still shape cultures, and as Protestant Christians, we must not only- we are not only members of churches, we are citizens, we're parents, employees, teachers, and neighbors. The cultural air we breathe is not confined to denominational boundaries. We're all downstream from the same cultural currents. So when the Catholic church fails to speak prophetically, the entire body of Christ suffers a diminished credibility. So yes, Protestants care and should care about who the next pope is, not because we're returning to Rome, but because the West, our shared civilization, desperately needs a moral compass with courage and clarity." And so to echo your point, we pray then, not for a pope who flatters the world, but for one who will stand against it in the name of truth, for the good of the shared moral witness, and for the good of the world. So yeah, just to leave our listeners out there, take a minute and pray, for Leo XIV, that he would indeed take a courageous and biblical stand on the moral quandaries of our age.

Sean McDowell: Amen. Well said. Why does the pope matter? Well, two things come to mind. Pope John Paul II theology of the body, I think, is profound- ... And it's deep, and something Protestants need to learn from. I'd also say countering communism came a lot of the efforts. [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So these issues matter for the collective good. You know, we didn't plan it this way, but this next story also intersects with this, very much so, and I sent it to you especially 'cause you've done a lot of writing on theology and law.

Thaddeus Williams: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And there's a huge case the Supreme Court is looking at right now, and this is an article from The New Yorker, and it's basically about the tension between, you know, the establishment of a religion and religious liberty.... And The New Yorker, which leans left, laments that it seems the conservative court is leaning more into establishing religion with this new case that probably we'll hear about in the next few weeks or so. Well, really, this case goes back to in 2017, Trinity Lutheran Church of Columbia, it had a preschool and daycare center, was excluded from funds for resurfacing [chuckles] their playground, and the church claimed it infringed on their religious liberty. Well, what came out of this is the court actually ruled seven to two that this kind of exclusion, from the public benefit was not actually biblical, that it was, it was ruling against religious liberty, so to speak. Sotomayor and Ginsburg just decried this as saying, "We're breaking down the walls between church-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... And state with a dangerous precedent." Three years later, in 2020, the court ruled that a Montana tax credit for private school tuition had to include religious schools. So here's another move in the direction towards, you know, government funds being allowed to be used for religious practice, so to speak. Well, this ruling that the, is gonna, you know, the Supreme Court's gonna weigh in on soon, is with a c- potential Catholic charter school called St. Isidor. And, partly tongue-in-cheek here is this article is so concerned with what they're going to teach. So, for example, they list-

Thaddeus Williams: [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: ... They're gonna talk about, this is gonna teach you to communicate with God through prayer, the reality of sin-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Creation, and a value of human life from beginning to end. This is the alarming part of this article. So-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, imagine a child learning that-

Sean McDowell: [laughing] I know

Thaddeus Williams: ... There's such a thing as sin. There's such a thing as evil. It's terrifying.

Sean McDowell: I know. That's, that's exactly... But it's interesting to hear from somebody with this perspective, how-

Thaddeus Williams: Sure

Sean McDowell: ... How they see it. Well, the Oklahoma Statewide Charter School Board approved this, but the Republican, not... He's going for Republican governor, but the Republican attorney general has shot this down, and the Supreme Court is seeing it. So really, it's gonna probably, they suggest it's gonna come down towards what chief justice votes on, and they ask a lot of questions here about it. But I'm really curious, is this going too far, or do you think public funds should be used for a charter school that is explicitly religious, in this case, Catholic?

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, great question. Let, let me, I think this show, has the moniker Think Biblically. Great moniker.

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Thaddeus Williams: Let me try to do that with this question. Romans 1, Paul does not have this, sacred-secular distinction in his mind. He doesn't have a divide between the religious and the secular. He doesn't even think of worldviews in terms of theism versus atheism. Rather, for Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Romans 1, he makes it clear that we are all religious. He says, "It's not a question of to worship or not to worship. It's a question of, are you worshiping the Creator or are you worshiping the creation?" So everybody is on their knees- ... To someone or something. Just saying, you know, "I don't worship the God of the Bible," doesn't excuse you from your human nature that will inevitably, as John Calvin famously said, "The human heart is an idol factory." We're constantly cranking out objects of ultimate devotion. As G.K. Chesterton famously said- ... "You know, once you abolish God, the government becomes God." And that's really the story of the 20th century, was as the Western world was secularizing, you had States, the S being capitalized, and the State was supreme. And so in the Soviet Union, they were bowing... As they were, burning churches to the ground and bulldozing synagogues, they were bowing to Lord Stalin and Lord Khrushchev, and now Soviet communist Marxist ideology became the functional equivalent of the gospel. So again, taking a big step back from the legal particularities of this, I just wanna make the point that all education is religious. That, that the idea of a secular education is nonsense. That there's this myth of religious neutrality. And so to hunker down on that point a bit, what has been taught, as, you know, you pointed out in the article, these people might teach that there's such a thing as sin. You know, God forbid, little children learning, you know, what is the biggest threat to their soul and their well-being, that it actually exists. Well, if you remove the traditional definition of sin, it just gets replaced with, categories that maybe feel secular but are every bit as religious. And so now you need to repent of the original sin of your privilege- ... If you have, less melanin in your skin cells. There's an entire soteriology, a salvation system, baked into what has become, secular education. We need to be saved from privilege. We need to be saved from oppressed people groups. We need to be saved through liberation, through things like, critical theories, that can expose and speak truth to power and dismantle the systems of oppressi- that- this is a salvation system in a very real, profound sense, Sean. The fact that the gospel tells us-... How to be justified, how to get the not guilty sentence, how to achieve in Greek, catharsis, purification. Well, just, it's not just Christians who care about getting the not guilty sentence. It's the Hindu plunging into the Ganges, it's the Muslim facing Mecca five times a day to pray their salat, it's the Jew at the Wailing Wall, it's the atheist virtue signaling and hashtagging his solidarity with the right things online. We all crave justification, and so now in this supposedly non-religious public education, you have a whole system that is, "Well, because I'm hashtagging my solidarity with this cause, and because I'm standing against, the right-wingers, because I'm, I'm standing for the oppressed as defined by a critical theory, I'm a good person. I'm a good person. I'm on, quote, 'the right side of history.'" And so it comes with a fully orbed theology of how do you get justified? By dismantling and overthrowing entrenched systems of oppression. And final thought on that is in Christian theology, [lips smack] we have this idea of God's, sovereignty, His authority to define reality. And when you ditch God as the sovereign meaning maker over reality, we sign up to try to fill His shoes. So in this secular religion, to state it oxymoronically, in this secular religion, the individual, the child, is now taught, "You get to be the sovereign meaning maker. You get to define the meaning of your biology. You get to define the meaning of your own identity and the meaning of existence." And so that is now passing the divine mantle, the creator-sized task of defining reality, and cruelly heaping that creator-sized responsibility on the finite shoulders of children, who buckle under the impossible weight of this false religion telling them to define their own reality. So I know that's maybe not the precise legal answer you're looking for-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Thaddeus Williams: ... But a theological answer would say, there's no such thing as secular education, and so the legal ploy here is maybe we can silence Christianity having any voice, and now we get to enshrine our own secular faith and have that now have a monopoly in government-funded education, and I think that's a big problem.

Sean McDowell: [lips smack] This is a really good take. I did not expect you to go this direction, but you're absolutely right, that it's not like there's neutral secular education, and then Christian or some other education.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Frank Beckwith, who teaches at Baylor and really has studied law and philosophy, says, "Pro-choice is not a neutral position that leaves it up to the mother to decide. It takes a position that the unborn is not a valuable member of the human community and worth protecting."

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That is an ontological, ethical, arguably religious perspective.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, it's a dogma.

Sean McDowell: Same with marriage.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Marriage was not expanded when it became same-sex marriage. It was changed to a genderless institution, and that is-

Thaddeus Williams: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Specifically a secular view as opposed to what's traditionally been called a religious view.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So I agree with you. Now, just give me your quick take on this one. Obviously, you and I at some point would say the government should not be funding certain kinds of specific schools that are teaching things that we might take issue with. Do you think this goes too far with a charter school and funding, or do you think this is fine, and you don't take issue with this in principle?

Thaddeus Williams: [lips smack] Yeah, it, h- we can easily get in the legal weeds here in terms of what specifically is the funding being used for, explicitly religious aims. So in the, Trinity Lutheran case, when they were trying to get some tires for their playground and-

Sean McDowell: Right

Thaddeus Williams: ... To try to repave a playground, the court finding was that, you know, having an updated playground like all the other schools, and then singling this school out, that you aren't gonna get this benefit, the court finding was that is discrimination against religion. It's, it's government singling out-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's right

Thaddeus Williams: ... And excluding a religion. And, and so I think at the end of the day, it's gonna come down to, are the dollars going to, something that, is more explicitly religious? But even there, man, I gotta be honest, there's a back and forth in my head on this.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Thaddeus Williams: Because if all these dollars are going to, non-religiously affiliated schools, those schools are using the funds more often than not to indoctrinate young minds with the cult of self-worship, with expressive individualism- ... With critical race theory as a meta-narrative, a grand meaning-making story of all of reality. And so yeah, it's a tough one.

Sean McDowell: [lips smack] That's totally fair. There's some questions that are raised in the article that are meant to kind of lean us away from the ruling, and they said, for example, "What happens when a charter school claims its religious belief allows it to educate only members of the faith?" My answer is, well, if it gets government funds, then it shouldn't be able to limit to only educate members of its faith as a charter school, so to speak.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Sean McDowell: And so I have no problem with that. So what if-

Thaddeus Williams: I would add real quickly... Sorry to cut you off-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Thaddeus Williams: ... But just a quick thought. Um-

Sean McDowell: You're not sorry, but go ahead. I understand. [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: I'm not, even a little bit. Not even a little bit. But as you know, I'm a big, Abraham Kuyper fan.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Thaddeus Williams: You know, the father of neo-Calvinism, a big hero of mine theologically, philosophically, in terms of cultural analysis. And Kuyper has this concept of sphere sovereignty, and sphere sovereignty is that, um-... Education should be an autonomous sphere, where the government isn't stepping in and saying what should and shouldn't be taught. Politics is its own sphere, science is a sphere, business is a sphere. And he argues that totalitarianism happens when the government, instead of keeping in bounds of its sphere, begins getting its fingers in all these other domains of a society.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Thaddeus Williams: And so I think a case could be made for, the minute the government starts funding, the Christian education sphere through, say, a charter school, I think there's problems there in terms of a violation of sphere sovereignty.

Sean McDowell: I think that's, that's fair. The last two questions you raised is then I'm curious your take on this new argument by our friend Katie Foust, is that she says, "What if a Sotomayor asks, a school wants to teach creationism, not evolution?" And then says, "Well, mainstream religions inevitably benefit at the expense of sects with fringier views." I think this is actually an opportunity, if it goes through, for broadly speaking, Christian charter schools to be excellent and better-

Thaddeus Williams: Sure

Sean McDowell: ... And show by the results, these are people of good education, people of good character. We use the funds well. Make a secular case, sociologically speaking, based on the data, that this is for the good of society. So it might be tempting to overreach for some Christians at time and say, "We've got funding. Let's just indoctrinate these kids." I wanna say, "No, let's be wise. Let's be careful." If you teach creationism or intelligent design, teach evolution. That's actually good education. That's what our Christian school teaches. They teach evolution, but then they show the other side, which is actually good education, [chuckles] point and counterpoint.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And so, and then with the concern-

Thaddeus Williams: But to be clear, Biola-- just to be clear, Biola does not teach, evolution.

Sean McDowell: Well, but it teaches people to understand it.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, absolutely.

Sean McDowell: They don't promote it. That's what I meant by we're gonna teach what it is, so you understand. We're not gonna set up a straw man, but here's the-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Case for ID, and here's the critique. That's just good-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Education on an issue so many people differ with.

Thaddeus Williams: Sure.

Sean McDowell: So th- it'll be... If this passes, it'll really be interesting to see if this is kind of a bellwether of other kinds of charter schools to come up.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But my big take to Christians is: let's be excellent. Let's think, you know, in terms of the wider culture, how will people look at this and say, "You know what? Our fears were not well-founded. This is a good for the community." I'm reminded of Jeremiah, where they're in exile, and it's like, "Let's just-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Build for the good of the community."

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, for the good of the city.

Sean McDowell: I hope that's behind this movement if it goes through.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So-

Thaddeus Williams: Final thought on that, too, just sort of piggybacking on what you just said, is I think there's something to, again, going back to sphere sovereignty, t- look, taking some cues from Hillsdale College. Hillsdale has a perspective that says, "We don't wanna be beholden to the government by accepting funds in any sense where they could determine our curriculum." and so there's, there's something to be said for the Church as the Church, funding itself in a way that doesn't put us in the pocket of any government- ... Or any government program. I think there's, there's a case to be made there.

Sean McDowell: Fair enough. Good stuff. Now, this next article you sent to me, a mutual friend of ours who's been on this podcast twice, Katie Foust, has a ministry called... Or an organization called Them Before Us. And in the-- I mean, this is the best compliment possible. She is a bulldog defending the rights of kids.

Thaddeus Williams: She is.

Sean McDowell: I would invite our audience to go back a few weeks ago and listen to [chuckles] her discussion/debate with Jordan Peterson. It was incredible.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I listened to it twice and shared it. Well, she wrote this piece in World Magazine, and, I'm glad you caught this because I've seen you write some publications for this as well, Thad, and it's called A Winning Cultural Argument. And she basically lays out, for about a decade, the argument, against... The argument trying to resist the advance of the LGBTQ movement in terms of gender issues and marriage, was religious liberty. But we lost that case, 'cause it seemed like Christians were just saying, "Well, we only care about our liberty and freedom, not the freedoms of the LGBTQ community." Well, 2015, a decade ago, Obergefell versus Hodges passes, and then the LGBTQ community pivots to trans rights. So it felt for a while, and she lays out things like Caitlyn Jenner and bathroom debates, et cetera, that this transgender movement was inevitable. It really felt that way intellectually and emotionally for a while. It felt unstoppable. But then there were detransitioners who spoke up. Riley Gaines spoke up about being forced to undress in a locker room with a male swimmer. Videos of female volleyball players and basketball players getting, it, physically harmed. The Loudoun County father arrested after being... Accusing the school board of hiding his daughter's assault by a trans-identifying boy in the girls' bathroom. A professor being penalized for refusing, at a public university, to use preferred pronouns. All of a sudden, things started to slow down, and what Foust argues is that the winning argument is not religious liberty, but the victimization of children. And she argues that both same-sex marriage, which intentionally denies kids a mother or a father, and gender-affirming care, which the evidence is consistently coming out, including a massive report this week, that if we have time, we'll get to. Specifically, this report is a new report from the Department of Health and Human Services, kind of like the Cass Report out of the UK.... Saying that gender-affirming care, there's not only no good positive evidence it helps, but there's good reason to believe it doesn't help. So she says, "Our best kind of argument and case moving forward is the care for kids." I'd love to know what you think about this.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, this is, this is a fascinating story. And I think it's important, in Katie's, defense here, not only is she building a brilliant case, but she's also not saying, "Boo, religious liberty!" [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: [chuckles] Fair enough.

Thaddeus Williams: She's still saying, you know, those arguments matter, they're important.

Sean McDowell: Right, right.

Thaddeus Williams: It's not an either/or. She's just saying, you know, if we're looking at the writing on the wall, it seems like what's actually moving the needle in terms of public opinion has been, more truth coming to light about the effects on, transgender ideology, same-sex marriage on kids. And I think what's powerful about that is it has a way of sort of mobilizing the mama bears in society. [chuckles] You know? It, it- you're poking the bear. The minute their kids' wellbeing is at stake, you instantly mobilize an entire voting bloc who's willing to die for their children, and the- it taps into fathers' protective instinct. The minute... I know as a dad, if biological, boys want to, be in the same, spaces that are female only, like locker rooms, or restrooms, all of a sudden, my dad mode, my beast dad mode kicks in in full effect. And so I think, sh- that Katie Faust is making a pretty, brilliant point here. And, and I would add, there's another layer we could build on top of her argument that I have found personally really mobilizes parents. And, and let me just frame it as-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Thaddeus Williams: ... A personal encounter I had with one of my kids', schools. They did a Zoom with a consultant they were bringing in to do, a unit on sex education. And during the Q&A, I asked this consultant, I said, "You know, a lot of our kids right now are being bombarded with, views of gender that they might find confusing. How are you going to handle that?" And her response was as diplomatic as possible. She said, "You know, it's- we aren't gonna really get into the controversial stuff. We do have a unit on the gingerbread person." And for listeners who aren't aware what that is, it's this image of a gingerbread person with an arrow pointing to the genitals saying, "This is your sex," and then an arrow pointing to your heart saying, "This is how you feel. This is your gender identity." And, and

Sean McDowell: It's like play off the gingerbread man kind of idea.

Thaddeus Williams: Exactly, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Thaddeus Williams: The gingerbread person is a cute way, to have like a gingerbread man to explain these concepts for kids. And so she lays this out in this Zoom meeting, and I unmute, and I say, "Respectfully, that is not as innocuous as you make it sound. I happen to know where the concepts of your biological sex is different from your gender identity, the origin- who are the architects of this ideology?" And I went down the list. I said, "Alfred Kinsey was the one who coined the term non-binary. He himself was a pedophile and a pedophile- ... Rights activist." I said, "There's Harry Benjamin, who invented gender fluid. He was himself a pedophile and a pedophile rights activist." I went down John Money, one of the fathers of gender transition, and talked about his personal, pedophilia and his support for pedophilia. I just went down the list. "Here's, Michel Foucault, a pedophile rights activist, who coined a lot of these categories that are now being taught as gospel truth to our children." And so my question to this consultant was, "What are you going to do to ensure that the ideology of pedophiles does not come within 100 miles of our children as they're learning about what it means, what human sexuality means?" And it froze her in her tracks, and- ... My wife is very connected, to a lot of the parents there. Her phone blew up with other parents saying, you know, "Go, Thad!" [chuckles] And, and what I saw was how many parents out there, once they learn the facts, not just that, you know, quote unquote, "gender-affirming care" is destructive and hurtful on children, but also that the very people who came up with these ideologies were pedophiles, that's something that, parents, the light bulb turns on, and they realize, "We need to put our foot down and put an end to this yesterday."

Sean McDowell: That's a great point. Now, I know you're not saying we can dismiss their arguments because they were pedophiles. That would be-

Thaddeus Williams: In this case

Sean McDowell: ... A genetic fallacy.

Thaddeus Williams: That's exactly what I'm saying.

Sean McDowell: But you're-

Thaddeus Williams: It-

Sean McDowell: I mean, the arguments have to stand on their own merit, but it makes them profoundly suspicious and agenda-driven, and they have a motive to do this. And like Money did experiments based on those ideologies that caused incredible damage to the twins, one of which committed suicide. Or would you say-

Thaddeus Williams: Both of them

Sean McDowell: ... In this case-

Thaddeus Williams: Both of them did.

Sean McDowell: Because-

Thaddeus Williams: I would say-

Sean McDowell: Oh, both of them

Thaddeus Williams: ... In this case, that this is one of those cases where an ad hominem or a genetic fallacy is not a fallacy. Because the difference is, you know, let's say, [lips smack] Stephen Hawking, had an affair on his wife. Well, in the case of Stephen Hawking, that would be irrelevant to whether his space-time theorem of general relativity is correct.... Right? So, so to chalk up his personal moral blunder, and use that to dismiss his research would be fallacious. This is a completely different case, because these are the men who are now being taken as the authorities on human sexuality, and it's precisely in the realm of human sexuality where they were pedophiles and lived the kinds of lives that devastated children. So the fact that their content or their research, which has since been debunked as pseudo-research, is-

Sean McDowell: That's true

Thaddeus Williams: ... Being used to teach children, that's a completely different scenario.

Sean McDowell: That's fair, and I think the key point is that the research itself has been debunked.

Thaddeus Williams: Yes.

Sean McDowell: And yet they continue to be cited as authorities in this area-

Thaddeus Williams: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Amidst their background, and the debunked research is highly problematic. So that-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That's a fair point to bring up. I would say, you know, this research that came out, I wish we had time. It's a 400-page report.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Wish we had time to do a deep dive on it, but it seems like we're at an interesting point where the argument Faust is talking about and cultural momentum are starting to align, and I think she's ahead of where Christians should be.

Thaddeus Williams: Yep.

Sean McDowell: So this study points out that over the past decade, more and more adolescents have come out, you know, identifying as transgender or non-binary, and then direct quote, "Society has a special responsibility to safeguard the well-being of children." That's exactly right.

Thaddeus Williams: Exactly. Yep. Amen.

Sean McDowell: And she talks about... I'm sorry, not she. In the, in the report itself coming from the government, it talks about the kinds of interventions tied to gender-affirming care carry significant risks with them and harms: fertility, infertility, sterility, sexual dysfunction, impaired bone density accrual, adverse cognitive impacts, cardiovascular disease and metabolic disorders, psychiatric disorders, surgical complications, not to mention the emotional and relational regret we've heard in these stories. So I've said for a while, you know, the narrative has kind of been, if you don't go along with certain transgender ideologies, you're gonna harm kids, and you're hateful-

Thaddeus Williams: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... And it comes-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... At a cost to speak up. I've actually said for a while, not as clearly and boldly as Katie has, is actually the evidence doesn't point towards this. It points away from it.

Thaddeus Williams: Exactly. Yep.

Sean McDowell: We need to speak up for the sake of kids. Do it lovingly but forcefully, and then deal with the downstream consequences that come with that.

Thaddeus Williams: Amen.

Sean McDowell: So I think she's onto something, and we should pivot. Anything last on this one?

Thaddeus Williams: Nope. You nailed it.

Sean McDowell: All right, now, this story [chuckles] somewhat surprised me when you sent it to me, because the way it's framed, Thaddeus, is it sounds like somebody just had a video that went off the rails, and it's like clickbait trying to completely-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: ... Blow this thing up and get attention. That's kind of an underlying story here, but I suspect that you think something else is going on here that we should pay attention to. And just really quickly, Piers Morgan hosted this, what's called one of the craziest hours of TV, on his show, Piers Morgan Uncensored, and he brings together people-

Thaddeus Williams: [sighs]

Sean McDowell: ... With different opinions to kind of discuss and debate different issues, which in principle is really cool. He had a debate with, about Shiloh Hendrix raising money on GiveSendGo after a verbal altercation in a Minnesota park. Hendrix allegedly used racial slurs during the exchange and was filmed by someone shoving a camera in her face during the argument. People have rallied around her, and as of the publication, which now is probably more, she had raised basically $730,000 on that fundraising platform, which is crazy. So Morgan brings together Marc Lamont Hill, Lily Gaddis, Ricky Schlott, Myron Gaines, to kind of debate this, and there's an incident where somebody is baited into saying the N-word intentionally, and things just blow up.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Why did you select this story? [chuckles] And what do you think we can learn that's important about racial, just, you know, justice and interaction today, biblically speaking?

Thaddeus Williams: Sure. I mean, my deepest conviction here is that thinking biblically about race is the only way forward as a society.

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Thaddeus Williams: We, we've run the experiment and its iterations long enough to know that any, secular ideology that's attempting to, unite, people from different ethnicities will fall flat, and so I think this is a prime example of what we're left with when we aren't thinking biblically about ethnicity. And so I watched the episode. It's hard to watch. So the premise is, as you mentioned, Shiloh Hendrix, there's footage of her, screaming the N-word at an autistic Black child.

Sean McDowell: Geez.

Thaddeus Williams: And so that's the context and what created all the online rage. And so on Piers Morgan, where we were supposed to, you know, debate, they were supposed to go back and forth on, because apparently there's crowd, funding supporting both sides of this thing, and as you mentioned, Shiloh Hendrix has got over 700K of people supporting her-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles] Gosh

Thaddeus Williams: ... Which is mind-blowing. Well, one of the talking heads on Piers Morgan Uncensored, is Lily Gaddis, and she is unabashedly racist and acknowledges as much on the show. She says, "I use the N-word often-"... I, and I'll use it when it's appropriate." And Piers Morgan asks her, "Well, when is that ever appropriate?" And her response was, "Whenever I feel like it."

Sean McDowell: Wow.

Thaddeus Williams: And so I was expecting the whole panel to, sort of expose her rank, hypocrisy and prejudice here. Instead, one of the other, talking heads, Myron, I think Gaines was his name, if I'm not mistaken, he rose to her defense. And, and what struck me, you know, you have Marc Lamont Hill, who's trying to push back against this. What struck me was how,

Thaddeus Williams: unabashed, how strident, maybe that's the right word, how strident this racism was on a major outlet.

Sean McDowell: Oh, interesting.

Thaddeus Williams: And when you listen to the logic, it was very much, something that Jordan Peterson pointed out years ago that I think is insightful. He said, "The left has been playing the identity game," you know, us versus them, oppressor versus oppressed. Let's categorize everybody into their little tribal groups and pit everybody against each other in never-ending tribal warfare. And Peterson made the point that if that's being played from the left, you better believe folks on the right are gonna say, "Okay, you wanna play the identity game? We'll play it, and we'll win." And, and so he was warning about, what has since come to pass, a rise of a strident, identity-infatuated, white skin-obsessed form of supremacy that, is antithetical to the gospel. And I've seen it, man, Sean, the last week on, social media. I saw people that I would never in a million years imagine going there and being just blatantly in-your-face racist, q- favorably quoting Steven Wolfe, the author of, uh-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Thaddeus Williams: ... His Case for Christian Nationalism.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Thaddeus Williams: And the quote, he says, this is a direct quote. He says, "White evangelicals are the lone bulwark against the moral insanity of our age." And so I took to the interwebs, which I rarely do on social media be- but because I thought this was so just patently false and frankly heretical, that I took to debunking Wolfe. But I was shocked, maybe I shouldn't have been. Maybe a better way of saying it is my guts were twisting to see people rising to the defense of this kind of thing. And I think this is a prime moment in the culture for the Church to champion the gospel, the gospel of Galatians, that in Christ, there's neither Jew nor Greek, right? In Christ, there's neither male nor female. That our in Christ identity transcends all of these cultural divides and actually gives us a way, the only way in society for Christians, that culture is saying, "You need to be at each other's throats," to take their hands off each other's necks and unite their hands in praise- ... For the God who redeems every tongue, tribe, and nation and now gives us a new identity, an in Christ identity, where we see each other across the cultural tribes now as adopted by the same Father, so we're family. We're brothers and sisters, s- redeemed by the same Jesus and inhabited by the Holy Spirit. There's no other unifying force other than the gospel in the culture that can bring, people together that way.

Sean McDowell: You know, it's really interesting that in some ways, we had this overreach on what you might say, this secular left, that, like, white people are racist by definition just because of their skin color, and if you question this, it's because of your white fragility.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We're almost swinging back the other direction now, where people are, like, going into white power and just saying, "Well, I can use the N-word," in a way that's like, okay, time out.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: This is damaging and hurtful and not loving to people. It's like we swing between these. I'll just give a quick plug. I've told people this, that I think the two best books on biblical justice and critical theory are your book, Confronting Injustice Without Compromising Truth, and Critical Dilemma by Sawyer and Shenvi. Those two are must-read, so I'm just gonna give you a little plug for that one-

Thaddeus Williams: [chuckles] Oh, gosh

Sean McDowell: ... For filling in today.

Thaddeus Williams: You've got me blushing over here. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: But let me ask you just, like, really quickly bullet points. You said earlier, thinking biblically about race. A couple points come to my mind. Number one, we're all made in God's image-

Thaddeus Williams: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Regardless of race, socioeconomic status, in the womb, not in the womb, Black, white, married, single. Human beings have equal value and dignity. Second, there's a lot in the Bible that talks about the wrongness of favoritism-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, partiality

Sean McDowell: ... And discrimination.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Criticized regularly, and so to favor somebody because of something secondary, like skin color, is profoundly unbiblical.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I'd also throw in there the idea that our, ontologically, we can be [chuckles] divided into our race is not a biblical idea. We are male and female. There's different ethnicities, but even the idea of race itself is suspect, biblically speaking.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And I think biblically, we see diversity at the beginning. God makes all nations and ethnicities, male and female. We see it in the present in the Church, and we see it in the future in Revelation in Heaven.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So real diversity is built into the biblical-... Ethic, and we're called to love our neighbors. Would you add or tweak anything with that, just kinda quick way of thinking about race biblically?

Thaddeus Williams: Well, well, I had a student years ago, at a certain institution, who was actually, and eventually admitted to me when he began my class, he was a neo-Nazi. He was a white supremacist. And I got to watch this student over, four years at Biola University turn into a, like, a different human. Like, where he was marked by rage, and suspicion, and self-righteousness, and all the anti-fruit of the Spirit, by the time he graduated, he was marked by love, and peace, and patience, and kindness. And so I was never 100% sure that he was a neo-Nazi until I asked him after he graduated. I sent, you know, the hardest email [chuckles] of my career.

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: "Hey," we'll call him Bob, "Bob, by any chance, did you happen to be, oh, I don't know, a Nazi? And by any chance, did the grace of God set you free from that in your time at Biola?" And thank God, you know, with th- with trembling finger, I hit Send. Thank God, that same day he responded and said, "That's exactly my story."

Sean McDowell: Wow!

Thaddeus Williams: And I said, "Well, tell me, what was it that brought you out of this white supremacy?" And it was exactly what you just said, the doctrine of the Imago Dei. Everybody bears the image of God, regardless of the melanin in your skin cells. Interestingly, he highlighted the reality of sin, that Paul argues in Romans, that whether you're Jew or Gentile, you're fallen, and so everybody needs a savior. And so I can't point to my race or ethnic identity as making me superior if all have fallen short of the glory of God. And then he said the third thing was really seeing the every tongue, tribe, nation, scope of Jesus' redemptive work, and what that's gonna look like in the new heavens and new earth.

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Thaddeus Williams: Where, as you said, we will have a gendered eternity. Um- ... Dudes this side of the new heavens and earth will remain dudes [chuckles] on the, on the other side of the heavens and the earth, and vice versa. And in Revelation 7, it talks about how even the cultures of the world, the ethnicities, will bring their treasures, their cultural treasures will last into God's eternity.

Sean McDowell: That's a great take, very helpful and very practical. Power of God's grace, remind us, can set anybody free.

Thaddeus Williams: Amen.

Sean McDowell: You know, the only other thing I'd add really quickly is the Bible talks about mourning with those who mourn. And there's a lot of people who've experienced racial injustice, and just being present, and listening, and understanding in itself, can go a long ways and is biblical. All right, let's take some questions. We've got a few good ones here. We'll see which ones we can get through. But this individual says, "I've been thinking how to approach LGBT people with the Gospel. I'm conflicted between my empathy for them and the confidence that I have about the Bible's teaching on same-sex relationships. Obviously, Christ calls us to have empathy and love for everyone, especially for the lost. I'm concerned about remaining confident in my beliefs while directly facing someone who might ask whether I agree with their lifestyle." Bottom line is, have we struggled with this, and how would we reconcile that tension? I've got some thoughts, but give me your quick take.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, sure. I, again, going back to Romans 1,

Thaddeus Williams: Paul, in the context, talking about how everybody worships, you know, we're either worshiping the Creator or the creation. It's in that context of creation worship that Paul brings up, homosexuality. Almost as if, this is a first expression of that fatal exchange of worshiping the creation instead of the Creator. And so I see, questions of sexual ethics underneath... Sort of the issue underneath the issue is the worship question. And so I've found it's very helpful-- These are hard conversations to have, but I've found it's very helpful to be able to get at the issue underneath the issue. And so, quick 30-second story. I had a gay friend years ago, who knew that I'm in ministry, and I do theology for a living. And she asked me, "You know, I'm out of the closet and proud. What do you think of my lifestyle?" And I could see, Sean, as she asked the question, she was, like, bracing for impact, like, "Oh, no, here it comes. He's gonna take out a big leather-bound King James Bible-

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: ... And beat me over the head with it." And, so I explained to her, we'll call her Jane. I said, "Jane, what breaks my heart is I see you go from, lesbian relationship to relationship, and the way you describe these women in your life, it's not as a, as a girlfriend. It's like you're like a psalmist describing Yahweh. 'This person is my everything. You know, this person will save me. They're, they're, they're altogether good and lovely, and at their hand is pleasure forevermore.' and so I think you think you're in a relationship, when in fact you're in a religion." "And what breaks my heart about that is now you're taking these infinite appetites for validation, to be fully seen, fully known, fully loved, these infinite relational drives that can only be satisfied in a relationship with an infinite God through Jesus, and you're tr- you're transmitting that onto the shoulders of a finite, fallen being. So now when your girlfriend breaks up with you aren't bummed, you are existentially devastated because your functional deity, your god, has failed you." And so I think the issue underneath the issue being worship-... I find in a lot of these conversations, it's helpful when trust is built, and they know that you love them and care about them, asking them something like, "You know, how is that working out for you? And do you think you're settling," sort of the C.S. Lewis point, that infinite joy is offered to us, but like a little kid making mud pies in a slum, 'cause we can't fathom a cruise, a holiday at sea, we settle. "Do you think you're settling for finite relationships, when really what you're looking for can only be found in Jesus?"

Sean McDowell: That's a great answer. I understand this person's tension between truth and between empathy. We gotta realize it's the truth that sets this person free. We wanna be empathetic-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... We wanna be kind, we wanna be heard and show that love to people, but I think it is loving to speak truth. Again, our mutual friend, Beckett Cook, who's been on this program, was deep in Hollywood, and he was gay, and saw people studying the Bible at, like, a coffee shop in LA, and he asked them-

Thaddeus Williams: They were actually Biola students. [chuckles] They were Biola students-

Sean McDowell: They were Biola students

Thaddeus Williams: ... He told me.

Sean McDowell: Even better!

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Makes this story better.

Thaddeus Williams: Even better. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: And he asked them what the Bible says about homosexuality, and they just gave an honest, straightforward response. That's what he wanted to hear. So I've heard people like Timothy Keller soften it in a way that I respect, where he'll say things like, "Look, Christian ethic is that everybody is made in God's image and has value." It's also Christian ethic to love your neighbor.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: The idea of loving people who see the world differently, the Good Samaritan in Luke, this is a biblical idea. We've gotta ask the question, what it means to love, and since I'm a follower of Jesus, and I believe He is the designer and knows what's best for us, I've gotta stick with how He defines sexuality and give a truthful response.

Thaddeus Williams: Amen.

Sean McDowell: So that's my quick take on it. Hey, we got one more question. Give me your quick take on youth sports, how you navigate [chuckles] that one. [laughs]

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, that's a tricky one. I think the listener was asking specifically about Sunday morning.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's right.

Thaddeus Williams: 'Cause nowadays, it really is, you know, "Do I go to the soccer championship, the volleyball championship, or do we go worship Jesus?" So, you know, I have four kids, and all of them have played sports at different times. Right now, three of them are in sports. We got volleyball and soccer happening-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Thaddeus Williams: ... And flag football and all the things. And so, we try to draw a hard line that just says, you know, worshiping Jesus is infinitely more important than making the playoffs or rising up the competitive ladder. That's my short take [chuckles] is, um- ... Church should be, sacred. I'm not always 100% consistent with that, but I think that's the underlying biblical principle. Your take?

Sean McDowell: Well, I really struggle with this, 'cause my love was basketball growing up, and I just wanna support my kids' loves, and yet I wanna raise them in the faith. And I think we have the general principle that you would say. Sometimes we'll try to go to church Saturday night. Our church-

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... You and I actually go to the same church [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Has added a Saturday night service, which makes it earlier. You know, my wife said something to me recently. She said, "You know, if I wound the clock back with our kids in youth sports..." And I have-- my daughter's playing volleyball at Biola in the fall, and my son is playing basketball, so they both love-

Thaddeus Williams: Oh, wow. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: ... And play at a high level. And she said to me, she's like: "You know, if I rewound the clock, I think I might have had a harder line, where we just never play on Sundays." And honestly, we're still working that out. I don't know exactly what that looks like. I'm not gonna pretend I have it all perfectly figured out here, but I think oftentimes, what gives is church [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: Right

Sean McDowell: ... And rather what should be sports.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And so with our third, we are taking a harder look at that than we had in the past.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But Saturday night services really help [chuckles] when that is an option.

Thaddeus Williams: Yeah, that's a good solution.

Sean McDowell: For sure.

Thaddeus Williams: I will just throw out quickly-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Thaddeus Williams: ... You mentioned your son playing. Is he playing, Is he a Biola Eagle, playing for our basketball team?

Sean McDowell: He will be a junior this year coming up.

Thaddeus Williams: Oh, wow.

Sean McDowell: Just finished his sophomore year. Yeah, he got a little time this year. It was really fun to see him weave into the lineup a little bit, and he's-- he was up at 7:00 this morning working out-

Thaddeus Williams: Wow

Sean McDowell: ... Wanting to get a little more time next year, if he can.

Thaddeus Williams: So I will say, having been a Biola alum there in the same years as you were at Biola-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Thaddeus Williams: ... Living in the same hall, in Horton Hall-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Thaddeus Williams: ... Going to Talbot through the same MA Phil program, I'm one of the few who got to see, Dr. Sean McDowell on the court.

Sean McDowell: Oh, gosh. [chuckles]

Thaddeus Williams: And I will just say, for the record, he was the Christian John Stockton. He was, he was the Nash of evangelical basketball, so.

Sean McDowell: Oh, my goodness.

Thaddeus Williams: I was there in the class of 1972 to see you in action.

Sean McDowell: '72? I wasn't even born yet-

Thaddeus Williams: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Just for the record, but that's fun. For those of you who are like, "Who's Nash and Stockton?" Go pull up some clips on YouTube. I was a long ways from those guys but certainly patterned myself after them as best I could.

Thaddeus Williams: [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: Thad, thanks for filling in, man. You are on the top of our list. This is always fun. Great takes.

Thaddeus Williams: Thank you, my friend.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, absolutely.

Thaddeus Williams: Had a great time.

Sean McDowell: This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University, where both Dr. Williams and I teach. We have master's programs in theology, Bible, apologetics, spiritual formation, Old Testament, New Testament, marriage and family, leadership, so much more. To submit comments or ask questions, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. And please take a moment to give us an honest rating on your podcast app. Of course, we want a five-star, but any honest rating helps people look and see and assess the podcast and helps get the word out. Thanks so much for listening, and we will see you Tuesday when our regular episode airs. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]