The New Pornocracy and Why It Matters

Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] The book we are going to discuss today is one of the most disturbing and heartbreaking accounts I've read in a long time. Listen or watch before you have kids present. Why? Well, we're gonna talk about a book called Pornocracy, and what's unique about it is it's written from two UK writers from a secular perspective, a critique of pornography, arguing it's affected relationships, the brain, the law, and quite literally everyone and everything in society in some fashion. Scott, what's your general takeaway from reading this book before we get into some of the particulars?

Scott Rae: Well, Sean, honestly, I vacillated between being terrified and being nauseated. Those were my two takeaway reactions. And the-- what they're describing in this is not only the phenomenon of pornography, but the industry behind it.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Scott Rae: And the-- [chuckles] what a huge economic enterprise this is, and how it's influenced the law, how it's influenced the way our brains are wired, how it's influenced the way it affects our relationships, and how it's impacted, for the most part, hugely negatively the lives of the people who've been victimized by it. I mean, it is a, it is a incredibly disturbing look at what some people still think is harmless entertainment. And I-- Sean, you c- you can't, you just can't hold that view. That is just not a plausible view of pornography after reading this.

Sean McDowell: I think that's really well said, because for a long time it was conservatives. Maybe it was, Protestants, Catholics, Evangelicals-

Scott Rae: So-some would say Puritans.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, Puritans, from within a religious fold. But we've come full circle now, where you see in this book many, in particular two secular writers and thinkers making some of the same kind of critique that you and I and others have made. Now, what's not in this book is the hopeful, positive vision of sexuality-

Scott Rae: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Because God is totally absent. We'll come to that. But as far as the critique, it was chilling. There was a few times I almost put the book down and was like, "Do I even wanna read this?" And it's not salacious. The reason is they're like, "We're gonna give you a sense as best we can of the ubiquity of pornography, the effects of pornography, the kinds of pornography." And a couple times I stopped. I'm like, "Not only do I not wanna watch this, I don't even want in my mind-

Scott Rae: That's exactly

Sean McDowell: ... And my brain what's happening." But I felt obligated to, because I think many of us wanna pretend this issue's not there. If they're right, and I suspect they're right about a lot of what they say, we need to wake up.

Scott Rae: So, Sean, what do you think is the main thesis of the book? What's, what's the heart of this that the authors are really getting at?

Sean McDowell: So in 2006, there was a book written by a journalist by name of Pamela Paul, and she called it Pornified. So in 2006, we're roughly a decade into pornography being available on the internet. It's the start of social media. Obviously, there's no AI. And a decade- ... Or so into this, she's saying pornography has infiltrated our society. It's become pornified. Pornocracy is playing off the term ocracy, like democracy or aristocracy, is that it's not just a-affecting our culture, it's actually shaping and directing our culture by certain power players in the porn industry in a way we haven't seen in the past. So the-- they get-- they start off in the introduction by saying a pornocras- pornocracy, it's a noun. It's a society in which political power, culture, relationships, and identity are shaped or dominated by the purveyors of pornography. So the new angle here is kind of this law and the, and the power, that it's actually becoming not only normalized, but there's this kind of top-down political power at play, pushing this in the name of liberty and freedom in a way that they say is just wrecking our society. Now, i-in some ways, we'll, we'll, we'll come back to more of what that is, but let me read one thing that they say here. She says, like, two of them say, "Generations raised with smartphones have now viewed scenes of rape, choking, and incest before experiencing their first real-life kiss." I mean, just how does that affect the brain? How does that affect your expectations? And some of the lines they say, I'm like, "These are biblical critiques minus the biblical theology." She says, "Over nearly three decades, online porn has trained the mind to see women not as persons, but as costumes to be worn, roles to be assumed. This dehumanization cuts deep." Exactly. And so here's the way in the intro... I'll just kinda read to frame this hopefully well. They say, "This is the pornocracy. Ancient patriarchal scripts rebooted for the digital age. Spy cams, nudifying apps," which you and I have talked about in our cultural update.

Scott Rae: Just, just re- just recently.

Sean McDowell: "The theft of intimate images have transformed every woman's existence into sexual entertainment, reducing her to a commodity to be traded. Looming on the horizon is a future of relentless sexualized surveillance, where women and girls are shut out from public life altogether. If we continue to defend pornography as a matter of personal preference," and this is the autonomy that you and I have talked about, "the fate of women in the West may come out to resemble that of women living in theocracies."After all, our bodies are the same the world over, and the misogyny knows no borders. So not only is this a critique, it's kind of a, like a secular prophetic book about how these changes in technology will lead us when it comes to girls and women. Now, they're not saying pornography is only a male phenomenon.

Scott Rae: And it, and it's, and it's not a, it's not a distinctly feminist critique either.

Sean McDowell: That's ... Yeah, that's correct. That's an important point.

Scott Rae: Because, because ... Well, it is, because the authors, it's, it's a man and a woman who are co-authoring this.

Sean McDowell: That's [laughs] exactly right, which is important, I think. And so bottom line, they say, "Perhaps the greatest victory in porn's relentless rise to power is how it has become normalized." And the word they use is respectable, which even goes beyond a norm. Shame has been inverted. Everywhere from schools to teachers, government guidance to fashionable dinner party conversations, those who criticize porn are sneered at as censorious, sex-negative or whore-phobic. And I say amen. It's about time conservative Christians-

Scott Rae: Well, I-

Sean McDowell: ... Are not the only ones saying this.

Scott Rae: And I, and I'm happy, I'm happy to wear those labels.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Because I think, I think they're, they're absolutely right about how pervasive it's become, and there's ... Sean, there's just, there's no way around this, and the free expression argument starts to, starts to just sound a little hollow when you see all of the implications that they describe here. So let's, let's be clear about this. How big an issue would you say this is today- ... As opposed to things like radical Islam, artificial intelligence, Christian nationalism, critical theory. You know, a lot of the stuff that we've talked about being big issues today, w- I mean, maybe this is our bad, but we generally, and when we cite a list of those issues, we've not included pornography in that. And I think that's an oversight on our part. And this book has definitely corrected that in my view. So where would you put it on the list?

Sean McDowell: So let me ... I'm gonna answer that, but let me just give a sense of how big it is. This, this book has some stats that I think frame it for us. So how big of an issue is this?

Scott Rae: I knew, I knew the stat nerd-

Sean McDowell: Now, you knew it

Scott Rae: ... Was gonna come out here at some point.

Sean McDowell: You knew it. You know me well by eight years and 500 episodes. [laughs]

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: So one study they cite, which they say is dated, that global revenues for porn is about 97 billion, more than the GDP of most nations on Earth, most nations on Earth, its GDP. So later in the book, they bring out and they say just how un- how normalized and even unremarkable looking at porn is. They say the porn industry's value is double that of Hollywood. It's double that. In 2020, the world's four largest pornography sites received nearly 11 billion visitors each month, greater than the number of visitors to Amazon, LinkedIn, Netflix, Zoom, and eBay combined. Now, the biggest site of them which they name, and I'm not going to name the porn site on this podcast, was named the third most, quote, "socially impactful tech brand of the 21st century." Those numbers in some ways tell the story in itself. Now, when we compare that to radical Islam and AI, like it's almost impossible to really rank them, but in terms of a belief system that more people are embracing, leading them away from Jesus, you can't think of something more than Islam because it's way more influential than Christian nationalism, than, any other competing narrative, progressive Christianity, fill in the blank. It's radical Islam. But when it comes to how big of an issue it is, it's hard for me to not place it in the top five and at least probably in the top three because I s- think it seeps into all these other issues that concern us. So larger questions about LGBTQ, clearly shaped in many ways by pornography. The divorce epidemic, shaped by pornography. Self-image and depression and loneliness, shaped by pornography. Social media, shaped by pornography. So it's not like-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... A set of beliefs like, again, Christian nationalism or radical Islam, but its underlying influence, I think it's within the top three.

Scott Rae: And I, and I-

Sean McDowell: Now agree, disagree.

Scott Rae: I, well, I'd add to that one notion that used to be controversial that I don't think is anymore, and that is violence against women- ... Has been shaped by pornography. Now, that used to be controversial, and the pornography companies will vehemently deny that porn contributes to that. But as we get into more of this, Sean, some of the stuff we ... I mean, we may have to be, we may have to use some euphemisms-

Sean McDowell: We will do our best

Scott Rae: ... To describe, to describe some of this.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Scott Rae: But I think it has radically changed the expectations- ... Particularly of people who have gr- sort of have grown up with some of, some of the newer types of porn that has become incredibly popular.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And Sean, it raises, it just raises the virtue question for me. And what does this say about us as a culture that we are justifying and we are so attracted to the, to these kinds of pornography that is ... And we'll get to, we'll get to some of the details on this-

Sean McDowell: We will, yeah

Scott Rae: ... In a minute. I would put it right at number two-

Sean McDowell: Okay. Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Behind radical Islam. I think that is-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Scott Rae: ... That is, I think, still theThe main threat, and particularly in radical Islam, maybe not so much in the West, but clearly in the developing world. You know, our folks who are on the mission field in, you know, the Middle East and especially in pr- in Africa, they will, they will tell us that, the two things that they worry about most in their churches- ... Are Islam and the prosperity gospel.

Sean McDowell: Oh, that's interesting.

Scott Rae: Those, those are the two most important issues that their people face regularly. Um-

Sean McDowell: And by the way, if I could qualify this, it's not just radical Islam. If there's a belief system that more people believe leading them away from Jesus, it's any kind of Islam that denies the Trinity and the, and the deity of Jesus. So for society, radical Islam in terms of a belief system that's leading more people away from Jesus, it's any version of Islam, I would say. But that's a separate conversation.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: You put it number two, which is high and huge.

Scott Rae: And I-- But before I read this, I wouldn't have.

Sean McDowell: Oh, wow. It really moved you.

Scott Rae: I would, I would have pro- I would have put it, you know, somewhat further down the list.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Scott Rae: But it's the, it's the new... So what's-- it's what's new in pornography that has gotten me to that point.

Sean McDowell: And you know what? I don't know the answer to this, but I wonder how many social ills, like take issues like poverty, so much driven by broken relationships. How much of those broken relationships driven by pornography? Sex trafficking, pornography. I don't know that anybody's really drawn this, but part of the point is that it has seeped into our society in so many ways we don't see, and hence is at least number three or number two-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... On issues of concern.

Scott Rae: And, and I th- yeah. And that's, I think that's precisely their point.

Sean McDowell: That's exactly what their point is.

Scott Rae: Precisely.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Scott Rae: So, the chapter I thought that was the most impactful for me was the chapter, I think it's two or three, entitled "Not Your Granddad's Porn."

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Scott Rae: So what has-- what do they describe as having changed from sort of the, you know, the Playboy magazines that you used to keep in your attic and, you know, the stuff that we used to call smut-

Sean McDowell: Right. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: ... Back, you know, 100 years ago-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... To what's, what's being purveyed on the internet and social media today?

Sean McDowell: Yeah, this chapter was jarring, and I almost, I almost-

Scott Rae: This, this was, this was a hard one to read for me

Sean McDowell: ... Yeah, I almost put it down. I was like, "I don't even want this in my mind," to be completely honest with you. But the big ar- argument they make is that the real triumph of the pornocracy is respectability. And they say, for example, this is an example they give. It's even assumed a role in politics. Democrat groups campaigning in the 2024 US election paid for advertisements on pornography sites and warned that their opponents would restrict users' access. Now, one thing they don't point out is they're not being political in this book, is in the 224 Republican convention, there was an OnlyFans creator who presented and spoke there. So this is not just one political party. Now, whether it's more in one political party than the other, I have no idea, but their point is just that it's seeping into so many different areas. Here's what they talk about, is they talk about how... [sighs] For example, they say, "How do we square the claim," and this is back to your point about virtue, is that we're told it's wrong to shame people for using pornography. It's a human right. And here's their question: How do we square these claims to the fact that the world's most popular pornography platforms continue to host countless rape videos, child sexual abuse material, and revenge porn? That's just a fact. Now, we can pick on the people who are putting this on platforms, but they're putting it on there because people are watching it and desiring it. And so they point out three areas where they think this is not your granddad's porn, and I'll do my best to frame this in a way that's respectable. Number one is sexual violence. So they talk about this 2023 Council for Equality of Women and Men, had rec- They reviewed millions of videos on the biggest international pornography websites and found 90% featured verbal, physical, and sexual violence towards women. 90%. I'm not gonna read the way that it describes them. It's so objectifying and dehumanizing and dealing with assault and sometimes torture commonly showing up. On another study of 150,000 videos in the UK, they found one in eight titles shown to first-time visitors of mainstream porn sites describe sexual activity that constitutes sexual violence. So another estimate, between 35% and 45% of scenes include at least one act of aggression. And by the way, women were the target 97% of the time. So it's also teaching certain roles of men and women and how to treat the opposite sex. So the first massive trend that's different, they say, from Playboy [chuckles] Magazine, is sexual violence. The second one, I did not see this coming, Scott, is in 2018, an article in Esquire Magazine found that incest was the world's fastest growing porn category. Now, that's-

Scott Rae: What?

Sean McDowell: What? Do the math. Seven years ago. I don't know if these are trends that come and go. I'm not tracking these trends. [chuckles] I really don't want to.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But they make the point that it's common-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And it's normalized, and what happens is we have this natural ick factor to kind of incest, and that's broken down. And they say watching-

Scott Rae: Decreasingly.

Sean McDowell: Decreasingly, exactly. Watching incest porn doesn't mean you secretly want to sleep with your sister. What makes it compelling is the extremity itself, the thrill of cos- crossing boundaries and violating taboos, which is the heart of what pornography does. And then the third one, which is no surprise, is the barely legal category of just thousands and thousands of videos titled barely legal, teen category-And the age in the US to be in a porn film is 18 years old, but all these sites have just code words that people can search for barely legal. That's the shift, three things we've seen in pornography they point that is just disturbing.

Scott Rae: Here's... I'd add a fourth to it.

Sean McDowell: Do it.

Scott Rae: And they, it's just one line.

Scott Rae: And as the filmed torture of human beings remains largely free from legal censure.

Scott Rae: Choking, slapping, you know, var-various forms of what we typically have called sadomasochism, you know, are now, are now routine. And the danger in this, Sean, is that what struck me in this is that people who view this from a young age start to expect that this is normal-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Scott Rae: ... In their, in their sexual relationships that they have. And the boys think it's, you know, everybody does this, and the girls think that this is what the boys want. And so we have, we have, we have what I would call, it's, it's created a category of willing victims, which we've, which I don't think we've had much before. You know, we typically say, you know, rape victims, it's non-consensual. Well, I mean, it may, it may be bordering on that here. And so it's, it's, you can see where it's a little easier to see the justification for that. If consent is our on- if autonomy and consent are our only moral values governing this, then there's n- there's nothing to stop this. And we need, what we need is, I think what we have here is a little dash of utilitarian thinking- ... Or a little dash of the consequences that are being produced by this. And I, Sean, I think most people, I think today are not, they're not aware of these consequence- They're not aware of how normalized this kind of extreme behavior has become. And that's the dan- that is just this incredible danger. And I think, you know, y- I mean, I'm, I'm glad that I'm not raising a teenage girl today. And I'd be terrified if I was raising one in the UK from what they're describing. And that, and that, you know, the US is not, is, I don't think, any different than what's taking place in the UK.

Sean McDowell: I think that's true, but I wish they had drawn out more the bankruptcy of a consent sexual ethic, which is what people have said as long as there's consent, then it's moral, and it's justified, and it's a matter of freedom. The point being, it leads to these most dehumanizing, degrading kind of scenes, and people that are watching this can't tell who's acting, can't tell if this is real.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Shapes their brain, shapes their expectations-

Scott Rae: Yeah, and we should be-

Sean McDowell: ... And leads to that

Scott Rae: ... I think we should be fair too, that there is a lot of this that is not consensual-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Scott Rae: ... Too. Some of this, what they call UGC, user-generated content- ... Is often done surreptitiously and posted, and that's, that's the revenge porn that you're talking about.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Scott Rae: Almost all of that is done non-consensually. And it challenges our cultural notion of freedom because this, of all things, is the k- is the epitome of the cultural notion of freedom to do whatever the heck you want, instead of the freedom to do what you ought. And freedom g- that's constrained by virtue. This is freedom constrained by virtually nothing. And not even the law is constraining this- ... In a lot of the world. So that I think, it just gives, it gives, it points out the lie, I think, in the worldview that undergirds the justification for this kind of pornography.

Sean McDowell: So either you justify it, as some people do, and porn companies increasingly say, "We're monitoring this. It's a matter of freedom." Or they say, "Oh yeah, there's a problem with this," but then that shows the emptiness of the secular ethic and invites, are there norms about how we should treat people? Is there a purpose for the human body? Is there a right and is there a wrong?

Scott Rae: Well-

Sean McDowell: Those are the only two choices you have.

Scott Rae: Well, those nor- those norms sort of seep out here.

Sean McDowell: They do.

Scott Rae: They don't, they don't-

Sean McDowell: Without justification-

Scott Rae: Yeah, they don't say it directly

Sean McDowell: ... Academic justification.

Scott Rae: But, you know, decrying sexual violence tells you something about their moral compass.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Scott Rae: And, you know, they, you know, and, you know, being a rape victim tells you s- you know, they're not in the business of justifying- ... Sexual assault. And I still, I find it hard to believe, you know, as our colleague Bill Craig put it, "S- anybody who tries to justify sexual assault needs a therapist-

Sean McDowell: Right

Scott Rae: ... Not an argument."

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Scott Rae: But I f- I still find, I'm having difficulty, Sean, swallowing the notion that the porn companies are actually justifying these violent scenes of rape, the, you know, choking of women in under the guise of sexual expression. You know, the way women, the way women are, they're, they're posted not just, not just the victim of sexual assault, but they're posted physical assault. They're po- they're posted on these things with black eyes and cuts on their faces.

Sean McDowell: And people are looking for those kind of images within-

Scott Rae: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Women. And so he do- they do ask the question, how does this happen? And they're like, "Not by accident. There was a plan here. It's driven by making money, but it's also controlled by men." The primary [chuckles] people-

Scott Rae: That's right

Sean McDowell: ... Who are running these porn companies-

Scott Rae: That's right

Sean McDowell: ... Are not women. It's men who get to see women treated the way they want to. They get money from it-And the women are really the victims of this

Scott Rae: But part of, part of the point they're making too is that women aren't the only victims.

Sean McDowell: That's correct. And-

Scott Rae: So I think it's fair to say that women are the main victims. Yeah. Although I might, I might say children are the main victims- ... With this, but they're certainly not the only ones. And one of the things I think was so helpful in this is pointing out how men-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Scott Rae: ... Are victimized, I think probably in many, in many ca- if not most cases, without their knowledge.

Sean McDowell: I agree with that. And I-

Scott Rae: So, so say a-

Sean McDowell: Oh, go ahead

Scott Rae: ... Say a little bit more about-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Who the, who the victims are here.

Sean McDowell: So I'm glad, I'm glad you transitioned to this because we're so affected by autonomy and freedoms to do what I want, there can be a temptation from Christians to say, "Well, if somebody wants to be a porn star, they should have the right to do it. They made a choice." And I'd say-

Scott Rae: Sex work

Sean McDowell: ... Yeah, exactly. That's [laughs] that's a fair way to put it. Known as a porn star is the language that's used for it. So yeah, somebody h- we have culpability for our choices, but we don't see behind the curtain at how much people are damaged by this. So in the book, on page 12, it says, "In 2022, a group of 20 ex-porn performers launched a campaign urging the industry to raise the minimum age of participants from 18 to 21. In an open letter, the women," so this is all women, "listed a catalog of abusive practices inflicted by agents, producers, and directors, including being made to enact sadistic pedophile fantasies, being rushed into signing consent forms, and being coerced into high-pressure situations to do sex acts we've clearly said we will not do." That's a huge piece of it here. Now, what really saddens me about this, Scott, is they said here, they said, "Even before setting foot on a set, women in porn, and indeed the sex industry as a whole, are far more likely to have experienced sexual abuse than the wider population." Now, they... I'm not a psychologist, so I don't wanna speak out of my expertise here, but they just kinda suggest here, 'cause part of it is like, why on earth, if somebody was sexually abused, would they go into an area like porn? Like, you'd think they'd run the opposite direction. And they say, "A handful of testimonies from survivors suggest that for some, viewing abuse is a way to make sense of what's happened to them." So they quote somebody saying, a person who was abused from age seven, "I turned to porn to normalize what was happening to me. Every time I'd go on the internet, I'd search for porn rape scenes to try and convince myself that what was happening to me was okay. It reinforced in my mind that women were there to be used for sex, and at the end, they always seemed to be like it anyways." So this girl from age seven, just horribly abused in the worst way imaginable, doesn't know how to make sense of it, and porn at least gave her a sense of, "Oh, I'm not alone. This is normal." And it's people like this who were drawn into the porn industry. So yes, they make a choice, but they're absolutely victims as well, and these porn producers are using them for money and for pleasure in the way that they describe in this book.

Scott Rae: Let me-

Sean McDowell: And I think it's just disgusting

Scott Rae: ... Before you leave that, it's a, it's a vicious cycle because take a step back. Where did, where do child sexual abusers, you know, what's their exposure to pornography that m- that leads them-

Sean McDowell: There you go. There you go

Scott Rae: ... To abuse children?

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Scott Rae: I mean, overwhelmingly, there's that, there's that association. Now, granted, causation and correlation are not the same thing.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Scott Rae: But this produce... It produces that cycle that is a, that's a really hard one to break. Because, you know, I mean, people who treat serial sexual abusers,

Scott Rae: they comment all the time about how difficult it is for them to break that temptation. That's, that's a-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Scott Rae: ... That's a particularly difficult one- ... To break. That's, that's an addiction that is awfully tough to shake. Um-

Sean McDowell: I think that's right

Scott Rae: ... And which is why, you know, in the past, it motivated rather radical solutions, which I don't think either of us would support. But I think they rec- they recognized from early on how difficult it is to break out of that.

Sean McDowell: And I think the reason why is the very next chapter is on the brain's role. When I, when I speak on the effects of pornography, I talk how it affects our minds and the script that we have about love and sex and treating people, but also physically affects our brain and rewires our brains.

Scott Rae: Right. Yeah, exactly.

Sean McDowell: So they're talking about how when we... And this story's been told a little bit. We've talked about this. Other books have written on this. But they say, "When we partake in substances or activity we enjoy, our brain secretes an intoxicating cocktails of hormones and chemical neurotransmitters that trigger a range of pleasurable sensations, from satisfaction to bliss. And when they're released," because it's a good feeling, "we start creating pathways in the brain, and then go back to those to feel well." It's natural to want to feel good. So they describe here, they say, "Research- researchers have found the exact same kind of pathological learning in porn users as in drug addicts and in alcoholics." It's the same brain mechanisms, same brain pathways that are involved here. What they write, though, which is interesting, I hadn't thought about this, "Most worrying of all, and what makes it so much more pernicious than drugs or alcohol, pornography use is perceived by the consumer," it's perceived, "as a behavior with no punishment, only reward." So when someone's drinking, they're like, "Well, if I have two, three, four more drinks, I'm gonna have a hangover." In your mind, you don't think you're gonna have a hangover. You're just gonna be fine the next day. So some of the inhibition that might keep somebody from abusing that is gone. And then they describe how when it comes to, like-... Addictions with food, your body can only have so much sugar and before you get physically sick. Internet pornography, which is processed by the brain as a high-value sexual reward, is unconstrained by any limits. It's a never-ending procession of dishes. Now, with that, they ask a question. Go ahead.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And then-

Scott Rae: Well, which like any other addiction, takes more and more of it to get the same neurological effect.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so yes, and let me say no.

Scott Rae: Go for it.

Sean McDowell: Maybe we differ on this. Let me circle back to that. Hold that thought for a second. What they write here, they're asking a question. They say, do... Does looking at porn reflect desires, or does it create and shape new desires? And they argue, and I think correctly, that what draws people to pornography, like in a drug, if you have a drug and you want the same high, you need a harder drug or greater quantity. But when it comes to pornography, it's variety. That's what drives it. I need something different. I need a new experience. So somebody starts being driven to look at different things that give them the same shock, high-

Scott Rae: Stuff, yeah, stuff on the extremes.

Sean McDowell: St- it moves increasingly up the scale of more and more extreme, which is all available one click away. They say compulsive users are not only to seek greater quantity, but an ever-increasing variety of content, and this in turn shapes the brain. So they're not concerned about this in the book, and you and I would view this differently, but they say one relatively benign example is for straight people to start consuming homosexual pornography. So if you're a man and you're looking at group sex, all of a sudden there's a homosexual element that's present in it, and it starts to shape the brain and the mind of what's acceptable. Somebody gets pleasure from it, and it can literally shape the script of somebody's brain. So they say here, they say, which is more concerning, what's called child sexual abuse material, could watching that turn people into pedophiles? Now, they're not saying it's causative, but they're saying there's a strong link and connection. And they say, what should trouble us is they actually argue that this happens at times. What should trouble us even more is that some of these men who are looking at pedophilic pornography had said they had no interest in sexually with children before looking at porn. That seems to be as clear-cut an example that not all, but at least some, and they say bottom line, it doesn't just serve our sexual tastes, it shapes them. It shapes them, and that's because there's physical things taking place in the brain-

Scott Rae: In the brain

Sean McDowell: ... With reward pathways. So when this happens, you can't go back to just somebody in human flesh who doesn't look like they do in a porn film who's normal, and you destroy your ability to just respond to a human being in the present.

Scott Rae: Well, that's a good... It's a good transition, I think, to how this affects relationships. And this, in my view, is the really damaging part of this because it is, it is rewiring our brains so that we are, we are becoming less capable of appreciating and enjoying sexual relationships with a real person. And it's a, it's a little bit hypocritical, I think, not a little, a lot hypocritical of men because, you know, most men who watch this stuff, they don't look like the porn stars.

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: And, you know, and so to expect, you know, to expect that the women they're with look like the women that they see when they're not that way- ... Stri- at the least would be gross hypocrisy. And but I think the i- the idea that this affects relationships, particularly among adolescents, that's the part, Sean, that really got my attention.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's concerning.

Scott Rae: Because, because if they grow up watching this stuff on the extreme, which, you know, that stuff wasn't available until, you know, j- you know, maybe just in the last 10 years.

Sean McDowell: At least easily accessible and available.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Scott Rae: That's true.

Sean McDowell: I agree.

Scott Rae: You know, the... If that... When that becomes normalized, then, you know, like we've said- ... The boy, the boys expect it, and the girls know that the boys want that, and so it's part of pleasing the boy. And that all of a sudden has become normalized among adolescents.

Sean McDowell: Exactly.

Scott Rae: And, you know, there's, there's a lot, Sean, you know, all the stuff that happens in adolescence, you know, that shapes the trajectory of w- of where life goes-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Scott Rae: ... In some pretty influential ways.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Scott Rae: And I just... It's just so tragic to me to see increasingly adolescents being handicapped out of the gate- ... From being able to enjoy, you know, what you and I would consider really good sexual relationships within marriage.

Sean McDowell: Handicapped is the right word. Disadvantaged from the get-go-

Scott Rae: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Because of this. And, you know, one of the things they point out is they say most kids, if they're searching for it's just out of curiosity, but you misspell a word, you're thrown onto a porn site. There are people trying to hook kids actively early on. You know, interestingly, early act about how... You asked about how men are victims, and on page 37 they say, "The truth is men are porn's victims too. Takes away their ability to enjoy fulfilling, respectful relationships and programs them to react to what they see on screenRather than to value and find mutual pleasure with their partners. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Scott Rae: I have that underlined too.

Sean McDowell: I mean, you have that same one underlined.

Scott Rae: I do.

Sean McDowell: I mean, it's just... So they say, on the next page, they say, "For men in heterosexual relationships, personal pornography use has been linked with increased relational conflict, diminished female sexual desire, poor male positive communication, and less overall satisfaction." Men's consump- solo consumption of porn negatively impacts their female's partners, and guess what? Even if their partners don't know. That's the key.

Scott Rae: That's-

Sean McDowell: So what happens is somebody will come out of this, and then it'll be made known, and then their partners will say, "Okay, now it actually makes sense. Now I can connect some dots." And they, you know, they have some studies in here. I don't wanna just believe studies that favor my view, but studies about divorce increasing, because of that-

Scott Rae: Link with infidelity

Sean McDowell: ... Link with... Yeah. Like, I think those, the, i-it's hard to show cause, but it's also hard to deny that that is a huge role-

Scott Rae: It, it, yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Driving infidelity.

Scott Rae: It's, it's a factor. I'm not, I'm not sure it's, I'm not sure it's the causative one, but it, but I think to deny that

Sean McDowell: It's a contributing factor

Scott Rae: ... To deny that it's a factor, I think, is putting your head in the sand.

Sean McDowell: And here's an interesting point, Scott. It's almost embarrassing that I didn't make this connection before because I've read and studied and talked on this, but they talk about, you know, your question was how is it ruining relationships? And they say porn is killing young men's sexual performance. And so Swiss researchers found that 30% of males 18 to 24 suffer from some degree of impotence, 30%. In 2014, researchers at the University of Cambridge found 60% of men who use pornography, roughly 25 age, average age, experienced erectile dysfunction with sexual partners, but not with porn itself. So the problem, the way she frames it, I'm just gonna read it. I don't know any other way to frame this. They say, "The fact these lads l-leapt to attention when viewing sexual imagery, but not in the presence of real-life lover-lovers, shows there's nothing wrong with their penises. The problem lies in the mind, and the problem lies in the brain." And I think that's exactly right. The problem is not that they don't have a libido that can be active. The problem is it's been so shaped by images online that it doesn't translate to a real partner. That distinction, I think, is really important to bring out.

Scott Rae: Here's, here's how they summarize this. I suspect you underlined this too.

Sean McDowell: Okay. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: Porn users are losing the ability to be in the moment-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Scott Rae: ... To be in intimate touch with their partner.

Sean McDowell: I did underline that.

Scott Rae: And-

Sean McDowell: That's exactly right

Scott Rae: ... And here's, they have unwittingly surrendered one of the most important attributes of a relationship, and one might well say of being human. So it's no surprise that partners suffer from their increasingly inhumane behavior.

Sean McDowell: I think that's right.

Scott Rae: You know, I'm glad I'm not raising daughters today.

Sean McDowell: Oh, man.

Scott Rae: Because, you know, I'm not exactly sure how to, how to safeguard them from some of this stuff. Uh-

Sean McDowell: Well, let me, let's come back to some-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Thoughts for parents.

Scott Rae: We'll, we'll, we'll get-

Sean McDowell: One, one of the questions that it's kinda surprised me for secular thinkers to bring up, although when it comes to issues like critical theory and transgender ideology, there are a number of secular theories-

Scott Rae: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Secular critics pushing back on this. There are certain strange bedfellows. But this, I underline, I thought was just fascinating on page 100. Th-they said, the very top of page 100, "The underside of almost every trans coming out story is a pornified conception of what it is to be a woman. What is referred to as trans is a hypersexualized fantasy. It lures some males to identify as women and terrify some females into identifying as male or non-binary." So they're not saying all of transgender individuals or gender dysphoria is motivated by this, but it's a huge piece of this, and it's contributed to it sexualized views of what it means to be a woman. And they refer to what they call heterosexual and bisexual autogynophilic men who are attracted to the fantasy of themselves as women. Well, in the past, somebody who had that could go talk with a counselor, share with somebody in their life. Now there's this whole world of people saying, "That's normal, and here's porn you can look at." And it contributes, they say, to increased gender confusion. I think that's right, which goes back to our opening point, that you take a range of issues, and beneath it, there's a huge percentage of influence by pornography. So let me read this one. They say, "The consensus within the therapeutic profession is to destigmatize and lift the shame from what were once categorized as perversions. With pornographic fuel and no social barriers, it is unsurprising this one niche behavior has become mainstream." And they talk about how much things like, she said right here, "At present, there are nearly a million members of the trans porn subreddit, a discussion board." And that kind of pornography, if you struggle with that, you can find it, but it normalizes it and shapes you and shapes other people that are just looking for variety, and I think, I think they're right about that.

Scott Rae: Yeah. Now, Sean, we've al- we've also-- we've talked a lot about this already, so maybe just a comment or two about how they view this. But how are AISex robots, things like that, you know, m-m-moving the pornographic ball forward.

Sean McDowell: This is a really interesting question, and, I wrote down a couple notes on this I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna miss. But they introduced this idea of a new idea of sexual trauma. Sexual trauma. Now, I had an interaction some time ago with a young person who said-- made a statement about how they had been assaulted online and were recovering from it. My first thought was like, assaulted online? Like, what is going on? Is this an excuse? Like, I just didn't understand what that means. Just click away. As I read this, I was like, "Oh my goodness, I really didn't understand what this meant." And so they give some examples here. They say t- "New technologies like artificial intelligence, deepfakes, and robotics are like the early web's nudity and extremity of today's tube sites," like YouTube, "reshaping people's experience." So they give... So one kind of trauma is the kind of trauma of seeing your face put onto th-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Artificial intelligence as if it's you, and other people watching that even though it's not you. That's traumatic for an individual. That hasn't happened to me, and I pray the Lord it doesn't, but I can only imagine seeing that, how jarring that would be. They give another example of a, Where's the story in here about a girl? H-Here it is. "One day,

Sean McDowell: in 2021, a girl named Nina donned a virtual reality headset and stepped into the metaverse. Within 60 seconds, she became the victim of virtual gang rape. Three or four male avatars with male voices pawed at her virtual persona, simulated sex with her, and took pictures as she tried to get away. She heard their voices ringing in their headphones, 'Don't pretend you don't love it,'" and some other things I'm not even gonna read here. I thought, oh my goodness, there's a whole level of-

Scott Rae: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Trauma online, especially for a generation that's more online, they're comfortable online. We've basically introduced, through artificial intelligence, an entirely new means of traumatizing and harming people and having new victims, which is just ridiculous. Last thing I'll say about this. I was trying to think about, like, maybe porn 1.0 was when there was magazines and videos and hotel rooms. Porn 2.0 was maybe when it's available on the internet. Porn 3.0 might be the introduction of, like, social media. Porn 4.0 is, like, virtual reality and artificial intelligence, because now they have what it's called, like, gonzo porn, that it's done-

Scott Rae: Right

Sean McDowell: ... In a way that it's like you are a part of this and participating in it, not just viewing it. You're a part of it. So it says, "You won't just watch, but you become the actor itself." And with artificial intelligence, we talked about this a couple weeks ago online, about how you can just plug in and create porn now through sites with your own ideas. So now people-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Aren't only actors. Now people are creating. That's a whole new level-

Scott Rae: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Of brokenness. I don't even know what that's gonna mean for the future.

Scott Rae: It do- d- it doesn't take studios in the San Fernando Valley-

Sean McDowell: It doesn't

Scott Rae: ... To produce this, you know? And that's why this user-generated content is, I think, a major step, you know, step toward more extreme stuff, and s- a step toward non-consensual stuff.

Sean McDowell: And it also creates a kind of addiction to artificially intelligent-created porn, [chuckles] which is blurring reality and fiction.

Scott Rae: All right. We, we got time for one more question here.

Sean McDowell: All right.

Scott Rae: What do we do about this?

Sean McDowell: I would say a few things. They, So two things. One is they give an example here of people calling out a certain porn website, and a lady who's an activist drawing attention to the number of videos that were loaded that were not carefully vetted- ... That had, like, child sex abuse and pedophilia.

Scott Rae: Wow.

Sean McDowell: And in turn, certain credit card companies stopped working with them. I think there's an increased role for shame. Shame on these people. I'd love any of them, if you call me, I'll talk to you. I want you to look me in the eyes and say the porn you create on these sites, you'd be okay with your daughter and your wife and your granddaughter being a part of it.

Scott Rae: Yeah. W-with-

Sean McDowell: Look me in the eyes-

Scott Rae: Right

Sean McDowell: ... And tell me that. If not, shame on you, because everybody who's on this site is somebody's daughter. Everybody who's on this site-

Scott Rae: That's right

Sean McDowell: ... Is somebody's grandson. So I think there's a role for shame, and this book made me a little bit more bold. I'm just gonna call it out. Shame on them. Second, talk to your kids early and build relationships with them. Talk to them, talk to them, talk to them. The number one way kids are learning about porn... I'm sorry, learning about sex-

Scott Rae: Is, that's right

Sean McDowell: ... Is through porn. Talk to your kids early.

Scott Rae: Hear, hear. Sean, this is, I d- I don't know, I don't know if I can recommend the book to everybody.

Sean McDowell: I agree.

Scott Rae: It's, it's not for everybody. It's not for the faint of heart on this. It was, it has been quite an education for you and me. But I admit, it was, it was a really tough read. And I'm still not quite recovered from it. And this-

Sean McDowell: I agree. And I kinda hope I don't have to read another book like this, but I feel like our viewers and listeners-

Scott Rae: Well, I think we have an, I think we have an obligation to do that.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Scott Rae: But this is... I just say, you know, I don't mind taking one for the team, but th- reading this w- this was taking a fastball to the ribs for the team. So for our viewers and listeners, I hope you found this helpful. I hope you haven't found it offensive or off-putting. We've just tried to represent reality here. But you need to know w-what the depth of the industry is and how it's impacting adolescents, young people, how it's impacting the way our brains get rewired. This is all stuff that I think most people who are, you know, who are casual viewers of porn, I'm not sure they've thought about. So we hope this has been helpful for you. This was a ha- this was a hard episode to do.

Sean McDowell: I agree.

Scott Rae: So anyway, I think that's e- that's enough on this one.

Sean McDowell: Enough said.

Scott Rae: All right. We'll see you next time. [outro music]