The Most Misunderstood Chapter in Revelation

Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [gentle music] Revelation 20 has been called the most controversial chapter in the Bible. The lake of fire, the great white throne judgment, the millennium. All these are in one chapter, and how you think about them biblically and theologically have huge practical implications for your personal life and how you engage culture. Here to unpack these with me, back due to popular demand-

Alan Hultberg: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... From the short series we did, people were like, "Can you get me more of this guy?" Dr. Alan Hultberg, New Testament professor here at Talbot. So thanks for being willing to do more of a deep dive with me on the specific issue of the millennium in Revelation 20.

Alan Hultberg: Sure. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Sean McDowell: Oh, yeah, this is, this is a treat. This is fun. So let's jump right in. I wanna ask first, why is the topic of the millennium so hotly contested? Like, what's at stake with this theological issue?

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: Really the reign of Christ. What is the reign of Christ? What does that, look like? So we will, I'm sure, talk about the different views on the millennium, but on the one hand, one view has a heavenly reign of Christ. There is not an earthly geopolitical reign of Christ in one view. Another view has the church introducing the geopolitical reign of Christ. That is the- ... The hope of the church is to evangelize the world, submit all governments in the world, to the lordship of Christ. And a final view, has the reign of Christ literally on Earth. Jesus will return, establish, an earthly government and rule over the nations of the Earth. So one of the issues, it has to do with what's the role of the church in all of that? Is the church supposed to be taking over the world politically? The culture war falls into that. Is the church supposed to be, submitting the laws of this nation to the lordship of Christ? Or is that something we await in the future when Jesus returns? So it has implications for how we live out our lives as disciples.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so the cultural war in one sense, it Talk to me about how one's view of the millennium would play that out with a little more specificity.

Alan Hultberg: Sure. So let me just say, one of the positions on the millennium is called postmillennialism.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: It posits that the church will establish the millennium on Earth, which is, in their definition, the submission of the nations to the lordship of Christ, and that means geopolitically. That means, that means you know, the laws of nations will be,

Alan Hultberg: under the lordship of Christ. Often, even, under the Mosaic,

Alan Hultberg: ... Standards, yeah. And so if that's the role of the church, if the church is not merely to evangelize and win souls who then individually are in submission to Christ, but actually win nations and governments and legal codes into submission to Christ, then the culture war is something the church must be involved in. If in fact that is not the call of the church, then the culture war, takes on a different flavor. And so, yeah, other positions, amillennialism and premillennialism, would not see the culture war as a, as a mandate of the church, or as the, even the expectation of the church, the church, not only is called to do it but will eventually be successful in doing, so. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's remarkable to think about. This passage in Revelation 20 that we're gonna get to has profound implications how we interpret this, for how we interact with government, where we expect history headed-

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... What the reign of Christ looks like in the future.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: That plays itself out very practically, and so it's not just this distant, or I guess you could say with Revelation, future thing that's gonna happen. What we think about how it's gonna happen is going to affect the way we think about our lives, interact with culture in the present. Okay, so before we get to the millennium, there's a lot going on that I'd read earlier in Revelation chapter 20.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So maybe give us some context, as broad as you wanna go, that would help us kinda narrow down on the millennium itself.

Alan Hultberg: Sure. So Revelation 20, [laughs] oddly enough, follows Revelation

Sean McDowell: There you go

Alan Hultberg: ... Which is a depiction of the return of Christ, although that's debated as well.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Alan Hultberg: The question is, does Revelation 20 chronologically follow the return of Christ? And so, the events that occur in Revelation 20, and in particular, not all of Revelation 20, but the millennium, that part of Revelation 20. The events that occur are the beast and the false prophet, are thrown into the lake of fire, and then Satan is bound-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... And, thrown into the abyss, and it's all locked and everything so that he can't deceive the nations any longer for 1,000 years. So millennium means 1,000 years in, an Anglicized version of Latin.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: And then the, there's a resurrection of, the saints. It's depicted as a resurrection of the martyrs. And they live and reign with Christ for that thousand years. So there's a thousand-year reign of Christ.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: And then, at the end of that thousand years, Satan is released. He gathers, the

Alan Hultberg: camp of the saints against the government of Christ, and, is then ultimately defeated and thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are. And so the millennium, those events of chapter 20,

Alan Hultberg: are, is the period of time in which Christ reigns and Satan is bound. Following the release of Satan and his judgment being thrown in the lake of fire, we have a general resurrection.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: The great white throne judgment, as you, mentioned, and then, some going to the lake of fire and others, into the new heavens and the new Earth.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: And that begins then in chapter 21.

Sean McDowell: That's helpful. So it's in the middle. Like I said earlier, you've got the lake of fire, you've got the great white throne judgment, you've got the return of Christ. This is a very dramatic, climactic moment in world history-

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... In which the millennium is placed. Let's take these three views, in really no particular order, one by one.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And I'm gonna have you kind of explain them and offer some of the biblical evidence for it, and then I've got a couple follow-up questions. But let's start with amillennialism.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: What is that view, and what are some of the biblical passages people might cite to support that view?

Alan Hultberg: Right. Yeah, so amillennialism, literally means no millennium. And

Alan Hultberg: amillennialists do believe in a millennium, but they don't believe in a millennium that follows the return of Christ to Earth. So their understanding of the millennium is Christ's present reign in heaven. So at the ascension, Acts chapter 1, Luke chapter 24, Jesus, sat down at the right hand of God and began his messianic reign. And so amillennialists would say, that is the millennium. And when, the church on Earth, which experiences, sometimes called, the church militant, it's on Earth experiencing a battle against satanic forces. When someone dies, they are then, resurrected to heaven, and there they live in the millennial kingdom of Christ, and that becomes the church triumphant.

Alan Hultberg: Generally, amillennialism, amillennialists and postmillennialists, which we'll talk about, will argue for some of the same,

Alan Hultberg: based on some of the same passages. So, in Revelation 16,

Alan Hultberg: the nations of the Earth are called to a war called, Harmageddon

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... We call it Armageddon.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: In, Revelation 19, the return of Christ and the the defeat of the beast and the nations that are allied with the beast, resisting the return of Christ is depicted. And then in Revelation 20, after Satan is released, he gathers the nations to the war. It uses, a definite article there. And, the argument is the war is the same as the war of Revelation 16, the war of Revelation 19, namely the Battle of Armageddon. And so the argument is Revelation 20 goes back in time,

Sean McDowell: Okay

Alan Hultberg: ... Before Revelation 19. So the return of Christ, the defeat of the beast, happens ... The end of the millennium in Revelation 20.

Alan Hultberg: The,

Alan Hultberg: in the past, this has changed because of pressure actually from-

Sean McDowell: Oh

Alan Hultberg: ... Premillennialists. In the past, amillennialists understood the, future hope of the saints to be an eternal life in heaven with Christ. And so it was a, you know, the sort of the beatific vision. I would, you would live in the presence of Christ and just enjoy the vision of God forever in this sort of spiritual existence. But it became clear that salvation encompasses not just the salvation of human souls, but of God's creation itself.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: And so, amillennialists began to recognize that the promise of the new heavens and the new Earth was an earthly promise- ... That, the saints would live and reign with Christ forever on Earth. And so, there used to be a major distinction between sort of the eschatological hope of amillennialists and that of premillennialists who would see an earthly reign of Christ.

Sean McDowell: We'll get there. [laughs]

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, we'll eventually get there. Now that's not quite so different. So there are premillennialists who will agree, Christ is reigning now in heaven. The messianic reign has begun. The question ... Is it, has it begun, has it happened in its fullness, or will it happen in greater clarity, after the return of Christ?

Sean McDowell: Okay, so, hopefully I understand this. The amillennial position is that the millennial period began when Christ returned, and we're in that period right now.

Alan Hultberg: No.

Sean McDowell: Okay, I missed it.

Alan Hultberg: Almost.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. When Christ ascended to heaven, after his death and resurrection-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Alan Hultberg: ... When he ascended to heaven- The millennium began.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: It will end when Christ returns.

Sean McDowell: I, so I said Christ return. I meant when Christ came, but it was the-

Alan Hultberg: In His first advent

Sean McDowell: ... So, yes.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I was like, "What did I miss?"

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But got it. But the ascension would indicate His reign. So millennium is clearly not meant to be taken literally.

Alan Hultberg: Correct.

Sean McDowell: It's just 1,000 years for some period of time, whatever that time may be.

Alan Hultberg: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Okay. So postmillennialism and premillennialism interpret that period as 1,000 years, though, as a whole? For the most part?

Alan Hultberg: I would say there are some who do, but most don't. Most still understand the 1,000 years to be a figure or to be a,

Sean McDowell: Oh, okay

Alan Hultberg: ... A non-literal,

Sean McDowell: Number-

Alan Hultberg: Non-literal number

Sean McDowell: ... But an actual literal reign.

Alan Hultberg: A literal event, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Event.

Alan Hultberg: That's correct.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, that's correct. But not literally 1,000 years. It just means a long time or something along those lines. Yeah, so postmillennialism-

Sean McDowell: Now hold

Alan Hultberg: Oh, yeah. I'm sorry

Sean McDowell: ... I wanna come to postmillennialism. So how does Satan fit into the millennial reign from an amillennial perspective?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, so the binding of Satan, they will usually point to the language He is bound so as not to deceive the nations any longer. And, for them, that means Satan will not be able to resist the advance of the Gospel. That, the nations will be able to turn to Christ.

Alan Hultberg: I have some reasons why I don't think that's the case, but

Sean McDowell: Sure. We'll circle back-

Alan Hultberg: But that's what they'll say

Sean McDowell: ... To some of those reasons.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So Satan is active as he was before, but not as active 'cause he can't prevent the Gospel-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... From advancing. Okay, got it. So presumably, on amillennial, Jesus will return, great white throne judgment, new heavens and new Earth, still future events-

Alan Hultberg: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... That are coming 'cause we're in that millennial reign right now.

Alan Hultberg: That's correct.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Got it. How, do you have a sense of how prominent amillennialism is today, or any key figures that maybe talk about that or?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, some, so key figures would be, it so yes, it's quite prominent. Probably, well, it's hard to quantify these things, but among scholars, it is at least as prominent as premillennialism and perhaps-

Sean McDowell: Oh

Alan Hultberg: ... More prominent, if I include all New Testament scholars and not just Evangelical scholars.

Sean McDowell: Fair.

Alan Hultberg: Greg Beale, for instance, who wrote an excellent commentary on the Book of Revelation, he's an amillennialist. Sam Storms is a pastor theologian- ... Who has, an excellent, defense of amillennialism. Those would be some prominent voices on that side.

Sean McDowell: Do we tend to find certain denominations that are more amillennial than others?

Alan Hultberg: Yes. Yeah So most reformed denominations, whether that's Presbyterian, Christian Reformed

Alan Hultberg: denominations tend to be amillennial. Lutheran churches and Catholic churches often tend-

Sean McDowell: Oh

Alan Hultberg: ... And Catholic theology tends to be amillennial, although there's minority voices in those well, and in the, in Reformed churches as well. But yeah, those denominations, because amillennialism was the dominant Protestant approach to eschatology, well, even the dominant Christian approach to eschatology from about the time of Augustine until,

Alan Hultberg: about the time of the Protestant Reformation, but the Reformers themselves-

Sean McDowell: Oh

Alan Hultberg: ... Were amillennial.

Sean McDowell: So 1,000 years plus-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... At least.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And when you say dominant, like you did a review, Erik Thoennes, we're in here talking about the discussion we had on hell-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... And the view annihilationism is, like an extreme minority view.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So there's, that hell is some kind of eternal conscious torment is by far the dominant view.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: When you say dominant, is it akin to that level?

Alan Hultberg: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Really?

Alan Hultberg: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Whoa.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, so in the early church-

Sean McDowell: Interesting

Alan Hultberg: ... The evidence that we have from the church fathers, the Ante-Nicene Fathers, the the

Alan Hultberg: the leaders of the church whose writings we have, there are other leaders of the church, obviously, whose writings we don't have, but the leaders of the church whose writing we have, writings we have, who were, who were, ministering before the Council of Nicaea, which was 325-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... Before about the time the church began to be, the endorsed state religion of the Roman Empire. The church earlier than that, tended to be premillennial.

Alan Hultberg: And it was for sure the dominant voice among

Sean McDowell: Okay

Alan Hultberg: ... The church fathers. Now, there were minority voices at that time. There's, a good book that argues for the fact there were minority voices at that time.

Sean McDowell: Fair enough.

Alan Hultberg: But the dominant view was for sure premillennialism. Augustine at, by the, Augustine is generally credited with kicking off,

Sean McDowell: Oh

Alan Hultberg: ... Amillennialism.

Sean McDowell: So credited or criticized, however you look at [laughs] it.

Alan Hultberg: However you look at it, yeah

Sean McDowell: [laughs] Fair enough.

Alan Hultberg: And that then became the dominant view. Interestingly, when the church-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, became centralized as the state church. Premillennialism, this sort of eschatological hope of vindication at the end-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... Waned, you know? And there was... It was easier to live I'm not saying this is all the motivation or anything, but it was easier to live with an eschatology that was,

Alan Hultberg: less, apocalyptic as premillennialism tends to be.

Sean McDowell: Oh, that-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That makes sense. That's, I'm sure there's a huge interesting backstory here I'm tempted to go into, but I'll let it sit. So amillennialism, just as a reminder, is that the millennial, millennium is an actual event that we are in that was kicked off by the coming of Jesus, and the great white throne, return of Jesus, new heavens and new Earth are still future events, and Satan is bound in the sense that he's active but cannot prevent the growth and spread of the Gospel.

Alan Hultberg: That's right.

Sean McDowell: Is that a fair summary?

Alan Hultberg: Very good.

Sean McDowell: Awesome. All right. Let's move now to postmillennialism.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So what is it and what's the biblical evidence people cite?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, so postmillennialism will read the evidence of what's generally referred to as recapitulation, that Revelation 19 goes back in time before Revelation 20. That is, the millennial part of Revelation 19 goes back in time. Well, some postmillennialists would argue even all of Revelation

Sean McDowell: Whoa

Alan Hultberg: ... And even the new Jerusalem, et cetera, goes, is goes back in time, but,

Alan Hultberg: however, it keys on, passages like the gates of hell will not prevail against the the confession of Christ, that, the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that, starts off small but then grows into this massive, thing so that the birds of the air perch in its branches. It's like leaven that goes into a lump and then eventually leavens the whole lump. They understand that as saying the Church will eventually Christianize the world, that the kingdom of God will eventually, through the evangelistic and, political efforts of the Church, take over the world, and that once the Church has done that, then, Christ will reign from heaven through the Church over the nations of the world, literally.

Alan Hultberg: And for 1,000 years, or some long period of time.

Sean McDowell: Some real period of time.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, that's right.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: After which He will return and establish the new heavens and the new Earth. Yeah. And so, those are some of the passages. They point to the same sorts of phenomena in Revelation,

Alan Hultberg: 19, to to argue for recapitulation as well. There are some strong arguments for recapitulation.

Alan Hultberg: One, besides the the idea of the war,

Alan Hultberg: in Revelation 12,

Alan Hultberg: it's, talks about Satan being cast out of heaven.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: And, or the ancient dragon, the devil, being cast out of heaven, and he comes down to Earth having great wrath, and he is, he's able to prosecute a war against the saints that lasts for a short time. He knows his time is short. And in Revelation 19, when Satan is released-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... It said he is released for a short time. And so they would argue that's what leads to the Battle of Armageddon.

Sean McDowell: Interesting.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I could see that.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... T-tell me how Satan fits into postmillennialism.

Alan Hultberg: It, would be the same, sort of approach, that he is, he's not totally ineffective during the period of the Church. He is just, restrained from,

Alan Hultberg: stopping the advance of the Church.

Sean McDowell: So are there... O-on this view, are there certain things we should anticipate and expect, like clear signs about when Jesus is going to come back on a postmal- postmillennial view?

Alan Hultberg: Yes, and in some cases, on an amillennial view.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: Again, there's, there are differences of opinion among postmillennialists and amillennialists. But in general, they would,

Alan Hultberg: admit that before Christ comes back, there is going to be a rebellion against, the reign of Christ- ... And that when He comes back, He will put down that rebellion. So often, they will still look for an Antichrist, figure, although- ... Frequently, their amillennialists would

Alan Hultberg: understand Antichrist to be more of a,

Alan Hultberg: figurative thing or,

Alan Hultberg: It, it's a view called idealism. It's, the Antichrist is a you know, like the spirit of Antichrist, and, he can manifest himself in various different ways in opposition to the reign of Christ. But generally, they, the, they would still be able to look for,

Alan Hultberg: a, an actual, a militant, opposition to the reign of Christ before- ... The return of Christ. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Who are some figures... So, A, how prominent is this today?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And who are maybe some of the key figures that argue for it?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. I, it's not as prominent as premillennialism or amillennialism.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: But I think it has been gaining in prominence. It used to be quite prominent,

Alan Hultberg: especially, after the age of the Enlightenment leading into the, early 20th century- ... When the church, when there was a very, hopeful, eschatology in the church and which generally, motivated the missions movement. We're gonna get out there and evangelize the entire world, and, things will get better and better and better. We're moving into the millennium. And World War I and World War II, put a, put the brakes on that optimism. And so now generally, postmillennialists would say, "Well, we're moving in the right direction, but it's incremental. It's up and down," you know, that sort of thing. And it says that the Church is not fulfilling its role as it should be fulfilling. We need to get out there and motivate the Church to evangelism and to, political activism and things like that. So it's gaining a little bit, but ... It lost a lot of traction in the 20th century. Yeah, but not, it's not as prominent as amillennialism or post- ... I mean, premillennialism. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I think there was-

Alan Hultberg: Oh, and I'm sorry, you asked me. Kenneth Gentry, for instance,

Sean McDowell: Okay

Alan Hultberg: ... He is a, very prominent postmillennialist and has written, done a lot to try to, try to, advocate in publications for postmillennialism.

Sean McDowell: I think there was a magazine called The Christian Century.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Like, the end of the 1800s leading into 1900s, and just the idea that the 20th century would be this great Christian explosion-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Movement, like you said, shattered by World War I and World War II, for so many different reasons. Okay, so we've talked about amillennialism, postmillennialism. Third, again, no particular order, would be premillennialism.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So what is it, and what's some of the key biblical passages offered in support?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. So both amillennialism and postmillennialism, the reason this is called postmillennialism, argue that Christ returns after the millennium, okay? So amillennialism-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... That happens, but the millennium is not an earthly reality. Postmillennialism, it is an earthly reality. Premillennialism says Christ returns before the millennium.

Sean McDowell: Okay, let me jump in really quickly. So amillennialism, we're in the millennial reign. Christ comes back afterwards.

Alan Hultberg: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Postmillennialism, we're not in the millennial reign yet, but Christ still will come back afterwards.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. We will be, we will eventually be in the millennium, and Christ will return after that millennium.

Sean McDowell: At the end of it.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Okay, we're moving towards it, hence society is moving-

Alan Hultberg: Getting better

Sean McDowell: ... The gospel is advancing.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Premillennialism, so the pre- is about when Christ comes back-

Alan Hultberg: That's exactly right

Sean McDowell: ... Before the millennium. So the confusing part is, and I'm sorry to cut you off, is if the pre- was we're pre- the millennial, postmillennial and premillennial both agree that the millennial state is not yet.

Alan Hultberg: That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. Some postmillennialists might argue that the millennium began in the 1st century and is slowly advancing, but often the, it's when the nations are submitted to Christ, that's when the millennium begins. And so, you can have differences of opinion on actually when it all began. And because, they don't, they're not committed to any particular length of time for the millennium, you know, if I thought it began in the 1st century- ... In, within the Church,

Alan Hultberg: then there's no big deal that it's taken 2,000 years and we haven't yet accomplished, what the Church needs to accomplish. That's not a problem for postmillennialists.

Sean McDowell: So if I'm correct, and I cut you off as you were explaining premillennialism. On amillennialism and postmillennialism, we would see cultural changes happen either before the millennium itself and the reign of Christ or the return of Christ. Premillennialism, Christ is going to come back, so if there are any signs, whatever they may be, and we could talk about that-

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... It wouldn't be of the millennium or the millennial reign, it would be of Christ coming back before any kind of millennial reign. Is that fair?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. Yeah, that's correct. So any of, any view could be looking for signs of the return of Christ. But the question is he returning after his reign or before his reign? And so premillennialism says he's returning before he reigns on Earth. Now,

Alan Hultberg: there are a number of biblical arguments for why that would be the least of which is Revelation 20 seems, as you read it straightforwardly, John just links these visions together with,

Alan Hultberg: a Greek phrase that's translated, "And I saw." And I saw this, and I saw that, and I saw that. And it, they clearly, the "And I saw" sequence in Revelation 19 is clearly chronological. Revelation 20 just links to 19 with the same kai egen. And then those events in Revelation 20 are clearly chronological. And so you have to argue that somehow John has gone back in time when he gets into Revelation 20. It doesn't naturally read that way. Some will argue, for instance, Greg Beale argues an angel coming down from heaven is a signal- ... That we've made a break in the chronology and things like that. I think it's a position that can't be sustained, but that's his argument.

Alan Hultberg: So Revelation 20 just normally reads, straightforwardly reads as chronologically following- ... Revelation 19. But there are other strong indications as well. So in Revelation, at the beginning before the millennium, before Satan is bound and cast into the abyss, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: Satan is thrown into the lake of fire after the millennium, and it says, where the beast and the false prophet are in Revelation 20. So that suggests a chronology, and, in what has to be argued is, well, it just means they were just thrown in a couple minutes before or something like that, not a thousand years before. But it doesn't read that way.

Alan Hultberg: The, to me, one of the strongest arguments... Well, you know, we're talking about he will not deceive the nations any longer. Well, everything from chapter 12 to chapter 20 is about Satan deceiving the nations so as to worship the beast. And so when it says, "He will not deceive the nations any longer," it suggests, I mean, like the stuff he was doing before Revelation 20. But to me the strongest argument that Revelation 20 is intended to follow the return of Christ is that the primary subtext of the Book of Revelation is the Book of Daniel.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: And in Daniel's eschatology, which is, built up over several chapters,

Alan Hultberg: in chapter seven, there are four beasts that come out of the sea, the last being, this indescribable monster, with 10 horns and an Antichrist-like figure comes out of this. John develops that beast, in Revelation 13.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: It's very clearly built on the beasts of Daniel 7. That beast is, burned with fire- ... When the Son of Man approaches the Ancient of Days and receives the kingdom. The other beasts, interestingly, we're told they weren't killed at that time. They were given an extension of life, so that there are some nations or some even opponents of the people of God who continue into the reign of Christ. And yet this final persecuting, Antichrist-like figure and his, political machine, that fourth beast, is destroyed, is burned with fire. And then the saints, receive the kingdom with the Son of Man. Now, that's chronological in

Alan Hultberg: in Daniel. In Daniel 12, it says, Daniel 12:1, "Then some of those who sleep in the dust will awake."

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: "These to eternal life, other- the others to eternal contempt."

Alan Hultberg: John posits a dual resurrection, a resurrection of the saints prior to the reign of Christ-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... And a resurrection of others that get thrown into the lake of fire after the return of Christ. And so, in the Book of Revelation, John is just following the chronological sequence of Daniel's eschatology. And so when he gets to Revelation 19 and 20, the Son of Man returns, he defeats the beast. Beast is thrown into the fire. He's burned with fire. There's a resurrection. They reign with Christ for a thousand years, after which there's, a second resurrection and the eternal state. And so, I don't see any reason to see that John has somehow changed around that general flow from Daniel. So, yeah, to me that's one of the strongest reasons that Revelation 20 follows Revelation 19.

Sean McDowell: That's great. Well, one of my questions was gonna be which view do you hold and why. You've tipped your hat pretty strongly-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Towards premillennial, which is totally fine, but let's sum this back up for people. So premillennial is Jesus coming back, and then there'll be the millennial reign. Might be a thousand years, or that might be a stand-in for a lengthy period of time. What is that millennial reign going to be like-

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And how does it contrast with an amillennial or postmillennial view?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Alan Hultberg: So there are two ways of understanding, the premillennial reign of Christ. One has been called classical premillennialism. It's the premillennialism that the early church, that we can discern from the church fathers.

Alan Hultberg: And it's it's,

Alan Hultberg: it doesn't involve God fulfilling his promises to the nation of Israel literally or, to the nation of Israel as his covenant people. It's, those promises are fulfilled in the Church and the, so it's sort of a more churchified version of the kingdom promises in the Old Testament. Another kind of premillennialism, generally referred to as dispensational premillennialism, although it doesn't have to be, you don't have to be a dispensationalist to hold this view. It says God made promises to Israel in the Old Testament in which he would gather them back into their land, reconcile them to himself,

Alan Hultberg: defeat their enemies- ... Make them the Imperial nation. The Messiah would come to be their shepherd. He would rule over the nations from Jerusalem. And at that time, God would, reconcile humanity and nature that, you know, you get Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, the child playing on the adder's den-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... And the lion lying down with the lamb. And the nations would be reconciled with one another. They would beat their

Alan Hultberg: swords into plowshares, and they won't learn war any longer. And you know, the glory of God would extend over all the earth.

Alan Hultberg: Both types of premillennialism see that sort of, redemption of social and ecological, as well as spiritual,

Alan Hultberg: problems, things that had been lost in the fall of Adam. Those have, those are being, renewed during the millennium. The dispensational sorts says, and it's literally an imperial reign of Christ from Jerusalem, with Israel as his, ... As his nation, ruling over the nations of the earth. Amillennialism and postmillennialism, to the extent that they, see, an actual earthly new heavens and a new earth, a physical culmination of the eternal state, they would say all that stuff is in the eternal state. It's not in the millennium.

Sean McDowell: Oh, okay.

Alan Hultberg: And so, yeah, the millennium,

Alan Hultberg: in both postmillennialism and premillennialism, the millennium is sort of a stepping stone to the eternal state. In [laughs] sorry. I've got too many words-

Sean McDowell: Oh, man

Alan Hultberg: ... That I'm trying to bounce around here.

Sean McDowell: You're doing great. You're doing great.

Alan Hultberg: In amillennialism, it is, it's almost absolutely distinct from the eternal state. Amillennialism is just the millennium is where you go while you await the eternal state or something along those lines. A place of, a time of bliss. You're in heaven, you're in the presence of Christ, but

Alan Hultberg: it's not, it has no earthly or, how should I say, redemptive value on Earth physically or socially or any, in any other way.

Sean McDowell: So premillennialism, Satan is bound in what sense?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. In an absolute sense. And so they would look at the statement there. He's, he is, he is seized, he's bound with chains, he's thrown into the abyss. The cover is locked on top of him, for 1,000 years. I that doesn't sound like he's limited in his scope

Sean McDowell: Agreed

Alan Hultberg: ... Opposition or something like that. It sounds like he's entirely out of commission. Yeah. And I would argue, sorry

Sean McDowell: No, jump in

Alan Hultberg: ... Jump on there, [laughs] jump on you, Sean. I would argue

Alan Hultberg: the point of a premillennial reign of Christ, that it, Christ reigning on Earth after his return-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... Is partly performs a theodicy. It justifies God's condemnation of humanity because even without Satan

Alan Hultberg: somehow undermining humanity, sin is in humanity's heart. And at the end when Satan is released, people can live in perfect conditions under the literal reign of Christ, and yet turn against him at the first chance they get when Satan is released. So it's a way of saying your sin is not caused by your environment. Your sin is not, you know, something-

Sean McDowell: It's 15

Alan Hultberg: ... External to you, it's something internal to you, and God is justified in condemning you.

Sean McDowell: So when Christ is reigning, Satan is bound during this millennium state. One of the things our colleague Clint Arnold has talked about is that sin comes from the world. That's transformed in the millennium. Comes from the devil. He's bound. But third, it comes from the flesh.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: But even in the millennial state, our flesh has not been totally transformed-

Alan Hultberg: Correct

Sean McDowell: ... So there can be and might be some sin and brokenness in that state.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. It's only those who have,

Alan Hultberg: risen to glorification, at the beginning of the millennium who have no sin, right? All other human beings in the millennium, in this premillennial view, still have sin, still have the flesh. And, yeah, and so they can be swayed to rebel against the reign of Christ. And you get, you know, you get a picture of that, right? In Psalm 2, "He rules over the nations with a rod of iron." They you know, let's break his fetters, you know, let's rebel, let's take counsel together and rebel against the Lord and against his Christ. Therefore, you better do obeisance to the Son, or lest he destroy you in his anger, et cetera. It's not Jesus reigning over... You know, it's not an amillennial view, right? It's not Jesus reigning in heaven over his purified, perfected saints. It's Jesus reigning over recalcitrant [laughs] nations who don't want him to be reigning over him, over them. But- who are forced to. He's gonna rule them with a rod of iron, and eventually will try to rebel against that.

Sean McDowell: So it's not a sinless state.

Alan Hultberg: Correct.

Sean McDowell: That is not the point.

Alan Hultberg: That's right.

Sean McDowell: And if I heard you correctly, there will be some people who had died before, resurrected and glorified in the millennial state, and some people who had not been resurrected and glorified. It'll be a mixture of both.

Alan Hultberg: That would be the premillennial understanding. Yeah, that's correct.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: So often-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Alan Hultberg: ... Amillennialists and postmillennialists will scoff at a premillennial understanding 'cause they're like, "What a weird situation. You got glorified-

Sean McDowell: And it is weird [laughs]

Alan Hultberg: It is weird. Yeah. But, you know, that's not the only weird thing that we ever come across in scripture, but, yeah. But, we would have to say, yeah, it says they're gonna be resurrected and and yet there will also be people who are not resurrected- ... Who rebel against Christ. So, yeah.

Sean McDowell: That is fascinating. You said it's not the only weird thing in the Bible. It's certainly not the only weird thing in Revelation.

Alan Hultberg: No, [laughs] that's true.

Sean McDowell: Everybody's gonna have to own some weirdness. It just depends on what level of weirdness and how it plays out.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So let's circle back to Israel just for a minute. So amillennialism and postmillennialism as a whole don't have a future role for the nation of Israel before any kind of eternal state, when we're glorified, new heavens and new earth. Maybe there. Premillennialism would say that there's a future role for the nation of Israel in the millennial state. Is that right?

Alan Hultberg: Yes. Yeah. And in particular, dispensational premillennialism. So in that flavor of dispensation, I mean, of, premillennialism, it says, look, God made promises, kingdom promises to Israel, not promises fulfilled in David and Solomon, but eschatological kingdom promises of the sort that I laid out.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Alan Hultberg: God will not be true to his word if he doesn't fulfill those promises. Now, Revelation 20 doesn't mention Israel, doesn't mention, even, like, what life on earth is like during that time. In fact, it goes over it pretty quickly. But we have to ask ourselves, when will God fulfill those kingdom promises? Now, premillennialists would say during the millennium. ... The,

Alan Hultberg: postmillennialists and amillennialists would say, well, God will... He's not gonna fulfill those promises to Israel,

Alan Hultberg: because first of all, Israel lost the the privilege of having those promises fulfilled. He will fulfill those promises to his redeemed people. Now, sometimes this gets into ecclesiology [laughs] as well, how, what, how is the church related to Israel? But he'll fulfill those promises, but he's not gonna, you know, those promises in the Old Testament to Israel, those are very specific, very, localized. No, he's gonna do, you know, he promised them a Volkswagen, but he's gonna give them a Mercedes Benz.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Alan Hultberg: ... He's, they're gonna have the whole earth, and it's not Israel, it's all the nations who have bowed the knee to him. And so they see them fulfilled in the new heavens and the new earth, and they're not fulfilled literally because, goodness gracious- ... It's, he's giving them something even better.

Sean McDowell: Even greater.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Alan Hultberg: And so, I would just say, well, I don't see anything suggesting that in the Old Testament, and there's nothing, in my opinion, that demands that in the New Testament either.

Sean McDowell: So our view-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Of the millennium, we've mentioned two doctrines that this strongly influences, our view of Israel and God's continuing promises to Israel. You mentioned, one about, oh, our view of, like, government and engagement with culture, how we think about things becoming more Christian or not necessarily so.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Are there any other doctrines that are at play with how we view the millennium, or are the two main ones that really kind of flow from how we think about that time period?

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. I would say those are the main ones. One of the arguments against premillennialism,

Alan Hultberg: is that it doesn't seem to have a

Alan Hultberg: it it seems to be regressive, ... The opinion of an amillennialist or a postmillennialist. That is, God has given us these spiritual,

Alan Hultberg: gifts, not spiritual [laughs] gifts, like the gifts of tongues, but he's given us all these spiritual benefits. Why would we want to have all these earthly benefits instead, all these physical benefits? It moves us backwards. It's- ... Now I'm kind of

Sean McDowell: Course

Alan Hultberg: ... It's regressive. It moves us backwards. Why not just come, have the great white throne, and have the eternal state? What purpose, what possible purpose could the millennium fulfill in the sense of premillennialism? And so I argued that it might have a, have a theodicy purpose. It might justify God in condemnation. Nobody can stand before God and said, and say, "It was because the devil made me do it. It's because, you know, my environment made me do it." No, it's, it, you lived in the middle of an, a perfect environment and you still sinned against God. So I say, okay, it could have a theological purpose.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Alan Hultberg: It's, I I would say Can God really go back on His promises to Israel? What does that say about the truthfulness, of God? It calls, I think it calls God's character into question to say that He made promises that He's not going to fulfill.

Alan Hultberg: Now again, people can argue, "Well, He will fulfill them in a very different way than the promise-"

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Alan Hultberg: ... Or something like that. Well, and it's kinda like, all right, is fulfilling a promise in a very different way really fulfilling a promise? I'm not exactly sure, but so it call, the character of God into question.

Sean McDowell: And this is neighboring.

Alan Hultberg: Which is, by the way, what Paul, that's Paul's- ... Argument in Romans 9 through 11. God's character is called into question, if He doesn't fulfill His promises to Israel, and Paul argues through that. "Well, maybe He's doing this, maybe He's doing that." Ultimately he says, "No, God's gonna fulfill His promises to Israel."

Sean McDowell: So it's God's character in terms of fulfilling promises to Israel. And you mean like Abraham, 12, 15, 17, 18 in terms of the-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah, and, the

Alan Hultberg: redemption of Israel-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... Their reconciliation to God- ... Their, the Messiah coming and reigning from Jerusalem over the nations, the the, refreshing of the land, all that kinda thing. Yeah, it, those are, those are pro- promises to national Israel. They're not just, like, sort of spiritual promises to spiritual people who love God or something like that. In fact, in particular, you know,

Alan Hultberg: God says, "This is how the nations will know that I'm Yahweh, when I fulfill these promises to this nation-" ... "that I had formerly cast off, but I'm gonna reconcile her back to myself again." So it, to me it calls into character the the question of God. Has something to do with redemption. Is redemption merely spiritual? So in amillennialism, especially in the older sort of amillennialism, redemption was entirely spiritual. It was all about

Alan Hultberg: souls being saved. But in the fall, not only was man's relationship to God destroyed or injured or broken, but man's relationship to nature was broken as well, where they didn't have to,

Alan Hultberg: ... Work for their food. Now they have to work for their food. And man's relationship with one another was broken as well, where the man and the wife were naked and unashamed. Now they're ashamed to be naked before one another. So we have social relationships-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... Ecological relationships, spiritual relationships all broken in the fall. Is redemption merely the fixing-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Alan Hultberg: ... Of that spiritual relationship, or is it also social, and bro- more broadly geopolitical relationships, and ecological relationships? And premillennialism at least argues it's all three of those things, which is more satisfying. Now, the others will say, "Yeah, they're also, that's also the new heavens and the new earth," or ... Something along those lines. So it's-

Sean McDowell: That makes sense.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: You know, I teach the class here in our apologetics program on why God allows evil, and we talk about theodicy.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I had never made the connection that you made about how the millennium, the millennial reign, could be a kind of theodicy that people who are reigned by the Messiah, Satan is bound, still will rebel against him, whether it's in the millennial reign or when Satan comes back-

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Is to show in a sense the depravity of mankind.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I've never quite thought about it like that. That's a very interesting connection. To ask, this one is probably speculative, but do you have any thoughts on why, if the millennium is such a consequential doctrine, it kinda just appears so small in Revelation-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... And there's little pockets of hints that are not inconsequential, but it feels like, and I know this is just a feeling and a sense of something that so much pivots biblically and theologically-

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... We'd get more on it not dropped in the most confusing book in the Bible, which is Revelation, second maybe only to Daniel.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. No, I would say, I would say first

Sean McDowell: Daniel [laughs]

Alan Hultberg: ... Well, even to Daniel. But, no, so yeah, John is, he's not working out a theology or you know. He is, encouraging Christians who are under either persecution or at least severe opposition from their, pagan environment, and also both pagans and Jews.

Alan Hultberg: And so it's offering hope to those people that they will be vindicated, that Jesus, that the Jesus that they have confessed is

Alan Hultberg: the, nation-dominating Messiah who will return and vindicate them. So it's not trying to, like, flesh out everything to say about eschatology. It's trying to, it's giving a hope to those people. Now,

Alan Hultberg: I agree that the ultimate hope is the new heavens and the new earth, where sin, is no longer present, where, we live and reign with Christ forever,

Alan Hultberg: you know, where, the the- Tabernacle of God is among men. We are in the presence of God. That's our ultimate, our ultimate hope. And so John is not so concerned about sort of this intermediate step, of the kingdom prior to that. So yeah, that's all I would say.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's fair.

Alan Hultberg: But what we can't do is just say, "Because it's not there-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Alan Hultberg: "... Let's just throw the Old Testament out altogether."

Sean McDowell: Totally.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: I I agree with that. So it seems like the take-home encouragement is amillennial, postmillennial, premillennial. There's a great white throne judgment. There's a lake of fire. Yes, there's the millennial reign. We differ over when and how it characterizes itself, but Jesus is coming back.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And part of the heart of Revelation is to trust God through suffering and persecution. Is that really the takeaway even if people differ over these particulars which we've talked about do matter?

Alan Hultberg: Yes. Yeah, I would say that's the main takeaway from Revelation.

Alan Hultberg: And if you can't, you know, you get lost in the weeds, on these different views and it's not doesn't seem that significant to you, then hang on to that. That is the blessed hope of the Church, is the return of Christ.

Alan Hultberg: However-

Sean McDowell: Good

Alan Hultberg: ... I would also say you do need to come to a conclusion about the mission of the Church. Is ... To take over the world, literally- ... Or not? Is it, is it to evangelize and await the return of Christ to set things right? Or is it to create the millennium itself? And that's a major distinction. It changes how you engage,

Alan Hultberg: social questions in in this world, and how much hope you place in, you know, if we elect the next president- ... Is, are we taking a step closer to the millennium- ... Or not, you know? Or do you say, "Whoever that president is, he's not gonna fix everything. Jesus is gonna fix everything."

Sean McDowell: That's a great distinction. So for somebody who says, "I do wanna land the plane on this one," would you recommend a book that either presents the different views fairly, I think there's probably a four or five or maybe it's three views-

Alan Hultberg: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... On the millennium, or one that lays out the case for premillennialism, probably either beginning or an intermediate level for somebody who's like, "I'm ready to take those next steps and think about it."

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. I always recommend reading three views, four views books. Zondervan has great Counterpoints series.

Sean McDowell: It's a wonderful series, yeah.

Alan Hultberg: Yeah. The difficulty with those is some,

Alan Hultberg: proponents are better at arguing their views-

Sean McDowell: Right

Alan Hultberg: ... Than others, you know? I'm not always impressed with-

Sean McDowell: That's fair

Alan Hultberg: ... Each of the proponents.

Alan Hultberg: The, if you wanted to read a book,

Alan Hultberg: just arguing for the millennium, there's a book by, oh, I can't remember his first name, Michael Vlach, V-L-A-C-H, on premillennialism where he kind of, you know, spends a book length arguing

Alan Hultberg: engaging different views, but arguing for premillennialism. But yeah, I it's always worthwhile to read a scholar, advocating for their view. Look up the scriptures.

Alan Hultberg: Ask yourself, always ask yourself,

Alan Hultberg: are they, are they engaging all the evidence?

Sean McDowell: Scan.

Alan Hultberg: Is this the best reading of that evidence, you know? But, you have to do some thinking. I mean, you know, read those books, but don't just- ... Go, "I really liked that-

Sean McDowell: Of course, of course

Alan Hultberg: ... Position," you know? You, you've gotta actually engage the arguments.

Sean McDowell: Or they could enroll in Talbot School of Theology, take your Revelation and Daniel class-

Alan Hultberg: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... And then you would assign it, and they, which I took, and was immensely helpful. The book is called Premillennialism: Why There Must Be a Future Earthly Kingdom of Jesus by Michael Vlach, V-L-A-C-H.

Alan Hultberg: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: He's got another book on dispensationalism, and it's also been translated into Italian, interestingly enough. Well, thank you for the time. Thanks for taking the, just breaking this down the way you did. Very clear and very compelling, and, this was fun. Folks, if you're listening and you're like, "Wow, this theological deep dive is helpful," do two things or more. And let me know what other theological issues on this channel would be helpful to bring in some experts from Talbot to kind of break down. And second, think about joining us at Talbot School of Theology. We are now the third largest non-denominational seminary, I don't know if it's in the world, I think maybe in the US. I should probably get my stats right. But we're growing, and we're increasing our faculty, increasing our reach. It's a great time to be here. We'd love to equip you theologically, so join us, and thanks again.

Alan Hultberg: Yep, thank you. [outro music]