The Devil Reads Nietzsche

Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] How do we live out our faith in what's called a post-Christian age? How do we react to thinkers who are aiming to undermine Christianity, such as Friedrich Nietzsche? And what is the enduring impact of thinkers such as Nietzsche on our culture today? We'll discuss this and a whole lot more around a new book entitled, the, a great title, The Devil Reads Nietzsche, with our resident Nietzsche expert-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Our colleague in philosophy, Dr. Greg Ganssle. I'm your host, Scott Rae.

Sean McDowell: I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.

Scott Rae: This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Greg, welcome.

Greg Ganssle: Thank you.

Scott Rae: You are, you are indeed our resident expert on Nietzsche. You have taught courses in our philosophy program.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: You are currently working a book, working on a book-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... On Nietzsche.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: So welcome. Great to have you with us for this conversation.

Greg Ganssle: Thank you. It's great to be part of it.

Scott Rae: So you, first of all, I guess, what has generated your interest? I mean, there are lots of different philosophers that you could have, you know, done deep-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Deep dives into. What's generated your interest in Nietzsche in particular?

Greg Ganssle: Well, it was actually a particular event. I was, before I came to Talbot, I was, working in Connecticut at a Christian think tank, the Rivendell Institute at Yale, and I was also an adjunct instructor, so I was in the philosophy department teaching part-time. And the course I taught, we were about to teach Nietzsche's book, The Genealogy of Morality, and to be honest, I had never read it. So I begin to read Nietzsche on The Genealogy of Morality. At the same time, in my devotions, I'm reading the Gospel of John, and I get to this passage in Nietzsche where he asked the question, "What good is, the practice we have of making moral judgments?" And he goes on and he asks, "Is it good for life or is it anti-life?" And I was stunned by this because the Gospel of John is all about life. That word is used 30 times-

Scott Rae: Huh

Greg Ganssle: ... By Jesus or about Jesus, about his mission and who he is. And I thought, "Isn't this interesting? Nietzsche and Jesus are both about life." And I thought somebody's gotta put these guys in conversation. I didn't know anything about Nietzsche, and that started a deep dive, which has taken 20 years, and it's- [laughs]

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: ... I'm still having to go deeper.

Scott Rae: Yep.

Sean McDowell: So you can make the case that Nietzsche is the most influential philosopher over the past three to 400 years. A, do you believe that? And if it's true or close to being true, why might that be the case?

Greg Ganssle: Well, that's a, that's a hard, that's a hard thing to say. I would say he's definitely on the list of the top five. I mean, you'd have to put Descartes, Hume, and Kant- ... In there because Descartes sets modern philosophy going, and Hume sets modern empiricism, which is a dominant view, and Kant sets-

Scott Rae: Which for our listeners who aren't familiar with that term.

Greg Ganssle: Okay. Empiricism is the view that knowledge comes either primarily or only from sense experience. And, and Hume wasn't the first empiricist, but his approach has come to dominate. So everything is about sense experience. Kant, of course, is a, sets what we can call constructivism, which is the notion that reality is, in some large part, constructed by our concepts. And so these people are very influential, but after that, or in conversation with those guys, Nietzsche would have to be on the list. And he's very influential in terms of how the 20th century unfolds. Descartes, Hume, and Kant are still very influential, but I would put Nietzsche up there. Now, why is this the case? Nietzsche was able to ask questions like the one I said, not what is morally right, not what makes moral claims true, but is the whole practice of morality even good for human beings? And, and he, his project is to undermine this notion because he thinks traditional morality and this whole practice is anti-life. It-

Scott Rae: Now, traditional reads-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Christian.

Greg Ganssle: Yes, yes. He's, he goes beyond Christian, so he'll, he'll attack, moral thinkers that are not explicitly trying to do Christian morality like, the utilitarians John Stuart Mill and, Kant's morality, but anyone who thinks morality is an obligation and I have to order my life around it. Now, his main target is the Christians and Christian thinking.

Scott Rae: I think we should tell our listeners, you're in for, you're in for a deep dive here, so you better buck-

Sean McDowell: Let's do it

Scott Rae: ... You better buckle up.

Greg Ganssle: [laughs]

Scott Rae: So Greg, tell us, this is a fascinating book, The Devil Reads Nietzsche. Tell us, what do you think is, what's the big idea of this and how, what do you think of this?

Greg Ganssle: Well, first, I wanna think about the title. And, McKeown, I've never met him, but we've been in email correspondence, he refers to a book by Jamie Smith called The Devil Reads Derrida. So I went to the library to get the book and see why that name, and there's a little essay in this book of Jamie Smith's, it's a collection of essays, called The Devil Reads Derrida, and it's a play on the popular movie The Devil Wears Prada.

Scott Rae: Uh-huh.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: And there's a scene in this movie, it's the, maybe the best scene in the movie, where the Anne Hathaway character, who's the administrative assistant-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Greg Ganssle: ... And is, kinda has disdain for the whole fashion industry, the, Meryl Streep character reads her the riot act because-Uh, Meryl Streep says, "You think you're immune to fashion, but look at the sweater you're wearing."

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: And she just tells the history of how the color of that sweater became, circulated at TJ Maxx or one of these stores, and the whole point is even people who hate fashion are consumers of trickle-down fashion. So the key is trickle-down. The Devil Wears Prada, the devil reads Derrida, the devil reads Nietzsche. These ideas trickle down, and you might think you're immune-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Greg Ganssle: ... Immune, but you're shaped by these ideas.

Scott Rae: Maybe this-

Greg Ganssle: So it's a clever title

Scott Rae: ... Maybe this is the time to tell Greg he really looks sharp today.

Greg Ganssle: [laughs]

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: That's right. Yeah, the devil-

Scott Rae: He does. He does

Greg Ganssle: ... Wears a sports coat, right?

Scott Rae: [laughs] So what was Nietzsche really aiming to accomplish in his writings?

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And are you comfortable referring to him as a prophet?

Greg Ganssle: Wow. What was he trying to accomplish? There's a, there's a great,

Greg Ganssle: quip. Nietzsche wrote a lot of his work in what they call aphorisms, very short sayings. And these are great to quote. It's part of the reason why Nietzsche's popular. You can pull things out and make them say anything. I mean, he's the one who said, "What doesn't kill you make you stronger-" ... Which seems clearly false to me.

Scott Rae: Yeah. [laughs] He was writing for, like, tweets long-

Greg Ganssle: Tweets

Scott Rae: ... Before-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Social media- Like that ... Came on the scene.

Greg Ganssle: And someone has edited these-

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: ... And has a book called The Tweetable Nietzsche.

Scott Rae: Oh, I didn't even know that.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Rae: [laughs] That's great. [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: But he has this, he has this comment in his book The Gay Science, section 108- ... Where he says, after Buddha died, there was a cave where his followers would show his shadow, a tremendous, gruesome shadow. And then he says, "God is dead, but for millennia they will be still showing his shadow, and we must defeat this shadow." I mean-

Scott Rae: Wow

Greg Ganssle: ... It's, it's a riveting image. It's the first mention of the death of God in his pr- in his published writings, and I think that captures his mission. It's that God is dead. By that, he means not that God used to be alive and then got sick-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Greg Ganssle: ... But he is utterly irrelevant, and not even in what, Charles Taylor would call the social imaginary of, educated people. But most of these people are still under the shadow of God, and his project is to defeat that. Morality is a big part of that. In another place he says you can't, Well, it's almost like an apologist would read this. Christianity is an integrated system. You can't reject God and still keep Christian morality. Well, that sounds like an apologist. He recognizes that there are all of these things that come out of belief in God, and he wants all of them to go away. Morality is a big one. The idea that there's something special about human beings, that human nature is a substance, a soul, all of these things he wants to defeat.

Scott Rae: Now, my question about prophet, if I can ask-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... Is these things are common now for apologists to say this.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Scott Rae: But at the time, when Western culture was still shaped more deeply by Christian thought-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... A, to say it, and B, to make those connections, was radical. So in some ways, he had a prophetic voice. Do you-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Tell me how you resonate-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... With that being ascribed to him.

Greg Ganssle: He, he was way ahead of his time, and he knew it. He, he said-

Scott Rae: Oh

Greg Ganssle: ... "My audience has not been born yet."

Scott Rae: Wow. [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: Yeah. And, and in some way, that was true.

Scott Rae: That's... I'd say that's a prophet.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: And, and, you know, I'm thinking about saying that about my works-

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: ... 'cause nobody buys my books either. And, but Nietzsche's books didn't sell at all when he was alive.

Scott Rae: Fascinating.

Greg Ganssle: You know, some of them sold 100 copies, and that was it. And, he kept saying it might take two centuries for Europe to be ready for these things.

Scott Rae: Two centuries.

Greg Ganssle: Even in the famous parable of the madman, where the madman stumbles into the market and says he's looking for God, which is my favorite piece of writing, the madman eventually says, "I have come too early." "My time is not yet."

Scott Rae: Yeah. Yeah, that, yeah, that comes out in here. I think part of what you're describing, I think, is what Nietzsche described as the, as the Western culture being a cut-flower civil-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Civilization. And s- ex- I think exhibiting surprise that what you call, what he referred to as the shadow of God could still survive as long as it has, similar to why, how a cut flower could survive, you know, more than a few days-

Greg Ganssle: Right

Scott Rae: ... Being cut off from the, from the root.

Greg Ganssle: That's exactly right. That's what he's about. Yeah.

Scott Rae: Now, I think that's, that's the big idea.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: I think, that's right, is how to get rid of the shadow-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... And how to, how to kill the cut flower.

Greg Ganssle: Right.

Scott Rae: But what are, what are some of the... He had, he had... There are a lot of other significant ideas that characterize his thoughts, sort of the, some of the means by which he sought to accomplish that end-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... That you're describing. What are s- what would you say are the maybe the two or three most influential things, ideas that he's remembered for?

Greg Ganssle: Okay, that's, that's a great question. The means are, to accomplish that are tricky because he tries very hard to be consistent, and he can't make a moral appeal to throw off the shackles of morality. And, and he's aware of it, so his, the flavor of his appeal-Um, and then we can talk about the influential ideas. The flavor of his appeal is that he points and he says, "This is the kind of life that strong people who know who they are, want to live." What do you think? He can't say, "This is the life you should live," and he actually doesn't. He p- he points and he tries to stir up kind of the appealing nature. This is what one of his ideas, the Ubermensch or the Superman or sometimes translated the Overman, is the person who has successfully thrown off- ... All of the shackles of religion and morality, and is, able to be strong. Now, to be strong, for Nietzsche, is not to be affected by other people. He has, he has a blistering critique of compassion and mercy. And he said, "No, if you allow compassion, you are the hostage of the weakest people in your society because they are holding you hostage." And, and he argues against these things because they are hindrances- ... To a strong, independent life.

Scott Rae: Seems to me this is one of the reasons why he attacked Christian morality- ... Like he did. So in fact, the book describes Nietzsche as, his view as a moral inversion-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Where he turns, he turns morality on its head.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And he's very critical of Christian notions of compassion, humility-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... You know, meekness, you know, things like that. He-- Which he described as, you know, as just, as, maybe the best way to put this was things that would impede our flourishing-

Greg Ganssle: Exactly

Scott Rae: ... As human beings.

Greg Ganssle: Yes, that's exactly what he did.

Scott Rae: So how did, how did he, how did he get to that place where he just-- He, he didn't sort of wipe it out. He just completely turned it on it, turned it on its head.

Greg Ganssle: Yes. Well, the way he gets there is he tells a story about the origin of morality, and the story is something along these lines. There were always strong people, and there were always weak people. The weak people can't do anything, and they wanna take revenge on the strong. How can they do it? They have no power. They did it in this br- he thinks brilliant, what he calls transvaluation of values.

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.

Greg Ganssle: And they turned the, what described themselves, weakness, being pitiful, unable to do anything, and they changed the vocabulary and turned those qualities into virtues like humility, meekness. And he has a phrase where he says, "We, we translate not being able to take revenge into not wanting to take revenge. We might even call it forgiveness," he says.

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.

Greg Ganssle: Interesting.

Scott Rae: And he says-

Greg Ganssle: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: ... So the first change, in his mind, is how morality developed out of weakness as a, as a strategy of resentment. And once you see that, then it takes the holiness out of morality. I mean, morality is widely respected and especially in his day,

Scott Rae: and nobody's gonna say morality's worthless. But he's trying to show the murky origins of this, how it comes out of resentment, and then he's ripe to say, "Why should we follow this? The strong can be strong, and the weak should be weak, and the strong have no obligations to the weak."

Sean McDowell: Now, my question is, you said earlier he aims to be consistent.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And you just ended your description of Nietzsche by saying, "Therefore, the strong should be strong, and the weak should be weak-"

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Which is a should and an ought-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Which is a moral category. And I also hear him saying one more thing-

Greg Ganssle: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Is he sometimes he says, "Here's what the courageous person will do." Courage is a moral value and a moral virtue. Is he truly consistent, or does he really lean into nihilism and just reject any better objective moral life than another?

Greg Ganssle: Well, boy, there's a lot there. I think he's pretty consistent 'cause I think those shoulds are pragmatic. I don't think they're moral-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Greg Ganssle: ... For Nietzsche.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Greg Ganssle: I think it's like, well, if th- if this is the life you want, look at this life, then this is how you live, and isn't that attractive?

Greg Ganssle: He's definitely not appealing to some teleology in the universe, like, well, this is what human beings were designed for. He especially, he's not appealing to anything special about human beings. He thinks we're just animals, and metaphysics and moral thinking is as naturalistic as digestion, and that's just the way it is. And, and he doesn't think that there is a stable human nature. This is one of the great meaning large, maybe not so great in terms of effect-

Scott Rae: [laughs] Yeah

Greg Ganssle: ... Things that he leaves to the 20th century, is he's one of the thinkers, Hume is like this also, that undermines the view that there's a human nature. Human beings are aggregates of competing drivesAnd when one drive becomes strong, then the organism acts accordingly. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So this is a rejection of essentialism, that there's-

Greg Ganssle: Very much

Sean McDowell: ... A true objective human nature.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Sean McDowell: We're not just clay that can be molded by different things.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That has devastating effects because Marxism and others have viewed us as clay and tried to change us. If we have a fixed nature, it leads to destruction, devastation, whole lot of economic pain, and beyond.

Greg Ganssle: Right.

Sean McDowell: That's the heart of the point you're making.

Greg Ganssle: That's the heart.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Greg Ganssle: But he's gonna agree with Marx about human nature, there i- that it's com- infinitely malleable. And-

Scott Rae: Now, Sean, you just mentioned nihilism.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Scott Rae: Nietzsche, I think, is widely considered the father of nihilism.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Scott Rae: So define for our listeners what do you, what do you mean by that term, and how was Nietzsche the or- the originator, or maybe the-

Greg Ganssle: Well, it-

Scott Rae: ... Maybe the, someone who popularized-

Greg Ganssle: It, it's kind of-

Scott Rae: ... That term

Greg Ganssle: ... Ironic, actually. Now, nihilism is one of those words, there's a whole bunch you get in philosophy. I tell my students, "This is the kind of word you use when you're not sure what you're talking about."

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: And then everybody nods, like, "Oh, yes, it's nihilism."

Sean McDowell: I've got a lot of those words.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah, yeah. I know. I use them all the time.

Sean McDowell: Quantum physics, you know, drop that in there. [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: Imago Dei. I tell my students, "Always use the Latin, 'cause people think you're so smart." And they go, "Oh, yes."

Greg Ganssle: Nietzsche-

Scott Rae: Do this in English, okay? [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: Okay. Nietzsche actually is the arch anti-nihilist. He thinks nihilism is part of the shadow of God. And, and it happens this way. O- one of the commentators made a really helpful structure for this for me. He says there's, there's three kinds of nihilism in Nietzsche that he talks about. The first is called religious nihilism, and this is the view that life needs a metaphysical justification or grounding. The religious nihilist thinks, "And we have it, because God is real." And you don't have to be technically religious to be a religious nihilist. Another commentator said that, Marx is a religious nihilist because he thinks your life is meaningful in light of the coming revolution. And any grand story that you place yourself into for meaning makes you a religious nihilist. The second kind is radical nihilism, and this is what we normally mean. Life needs justification, and it doesn't have it. And, and therefore, it's meaningless or whatnot.

Scott Rae: So G- so God is dead, and there are no shadows.

Greg Ganssle: And there are no shadows. Life is meaningless. Nietzsche calls himself the first complete nihilist. And, and this guy, translates that the first perfect nihilist. Because the way Nietzsche goes on to say it is the perfect nihilist is the one who's gone through nihilism and come out the other side. And that is the person who rejects the idea that life needs justification. Life has, life is its own justification. There's no higher court of appeals. Is life good? We have to look to a higher court of appeal. Is life meaningful? We have to look to a higher court of appeal. That's nihilism, because it's d- a devaluation of life. And Nietzsche says, "The attempt to justify life is meaningless. Life is the justification." What else could you, appeal to? And this gets into other things that he's-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Greg Ganssle: ... Working on.

Scott Rae: Fair enough.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I'm curious where we see Nietzsche's shadow today.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And in some ways, it... See if, see if I can frame this correctly. I can't think of a more anti-Christian ethic in some ways. Maybe I could, but saying the strong have the power, no obligation.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Humility and a care for the weak is weakness-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And a deficiency, as opposed to if you have power, you have the obligation to care for the sick and the widows-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And the poor, which is a Jesus kind of ethic.

Greg Ganssle: Right.

Sean McDowell: We could talk about where we see the Jesus ethic even bubbling up in strange places like the new book by Bart Ehrman, Love Thy Stranger-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Where he says this universal ethic to care for the poor in nursing homes and hospitals is a Jesus ethic. Now, he doesn't say it's objectively good, but he's like, "Thank God for this."

Greg Ganssle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: So he-

Greg Ganssle: Thank, thank the God who-

Sean McDowell: ... Appreciates it

Greg Ganssle: ... Might not exist, right?

Sean McDowell: Exactly.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And we see Tom Holland-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah, yeah

Sean McDowell: ... We see others valuing this broad Christian ethic.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Where do we see Nietzsche's shadow today?

Greg Ganssle: I think, that is a really hard question.

Greg Ganssle: Ni- I think Nietzsche would, for the most part, send the madman into all of these places- ... And say, "You do not understand what happens when you reject God." And, and the audience of the madman in that parable is- are atheists, not religious people. The market is full of people who reject God. But they were still living under the shadow. They thought this morality was valuable. They thought it had roots somewhere. And so what we see more today is still part of the target of Nietzsche. It's the sophisticated secularist still trying to ground a predominantly Christian ethic, although m- sometimes secularists will disagree with some of the content of traditional ethics. But it's basically an ethic of compassion, an ethic of, a-... Human value. And, and this is Nietzsche's main target. Now, we also see-

Scott Rae: That's, that's the cut flower civilization

Greg Ganssle: That's the cut flower civilization. That's a great image, yes. And so I think he would think we're still living in that. Now, there are pockets where you see,

Greg Ganssle: I don't know. I don't wanna say much about, you know, certain kinds of anarchy are gonna be much more in line with, could be much more in line with the Nietzschean kind of thing. And it... But, but we really haven't seen a lot of people just rejecting the whole moral framework as if the whole framework, not just the particularities of a specific moral framework, as if the whole framework needs to be thrown out.

Scott Rae: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Can I, can I jump and follow-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... With this? So in some ways, Nietzsche, right, he dies in 1900, right?

Greg Ganssle: Right. Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So he's writing the end of the 1800s.

Greg Ganssle: Right.

Sean McDowell: He says it might take a couple centuries. We're still in that window- [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... With about [laughs] 70-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Some years left to go if he's prophetically correct about this.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And I see some people, again, like Bart Ehrman's example of kind of wanting and appreciating this Jesus ethic, but then I see people like the late Will Provine-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Who's a biologist, and he said, "If naturalistic evolution is true, there's no life after death, there's no God, there's no meaning-

Greg Ganssle: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... There's no human value, there's no right and wrong." And that was like, oh, I think he got it.

Greg Ganssle: Yes, yes.

Sean McDowell: So we see these pockets of people-

Greg Ganssle: Pockets

Sean McDowell: ... Getting it.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But from his grave, Nietzsche would still be saying, "You guys are not listening."

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Sean McDowell: If you get rid of God, this is really what follows.

Greg Ganssle: This is really what follows. And there are people talking about that, and I forgot the guy's name. I was on the show talking about his book, Determined, the Stanford-

Scott Rae: Sapolsky.

Greg Ganssle: Sapolsky.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Greg Ganssle: That's it.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Greg Ganssle: And, and he has the same kind of thing. He thinks brain science tells us that there is no free will, therefore... And kudos to him for keeping the implications-

Sean McDowell: Consistent

Greg Ganssle: ... Consistent.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah. Therefore, there's no morality. And, but I highly suspect that he doesn't embrace the vision of the Ubermensch. I think he probably, you know, treats his neighbors fine, and it's more just a, an aesthetic choice. But the shadow of God remains that certain aesthetic choices are privileged or f- the flavor of them is shaped by the remnants of the moral vision- ... Of Christianity.

Scott Rae: It's amazing the long shadow that God casts-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... From the grave.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Scott Rae: Which maybe suggests there's something about resurrection-

Greg Ganssle: That's [laughs]

Scott Rae: ... That we, that we ought to pay attention to.

Greg Ganssle: Exactly.

Scott Rae: I wonder, I wonder if, maybe one of the examples of a culture that took Nietzsche maybe a little bit farther than others might- ... Would be the Nazis-

Greg Ganssle: Right

Scott Rae: ... In World War II. And I wonder if Niet- had Nietzsche lived long enough to see the advent of fascism and Nazism, I wonder what do you, what do you think would've been his reaction to that?

Greg Ganssle: I... Well, the Nazis w- were very conscious about appropriating Nietzsche and, but he would've hated their antisemitism. He was, y- I mean, it's... Different people have different theories on this. Mine is maybe much more charitable. All throughout Nietzsche's writings, he says nasty things about the Jews.

Scott Rae: Hm.

Greg Ganssle: But when it came down to there were laws put up for consideration to restrict the rights of Jews, he was fiercely against them.

Scott Rae: Hm.

Greg Ganssle: And in fact, his sister, married one of the guys who was behind these laws, who was really, an antisemite and moved to South America to start an Aryan community in the late 19th century.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: The... Hitler didn't invent this stuff.

Scott Rae: Huh.

Greg Ganssle: And Nietzsche hated this guy-

Scott Rae: Huh

Greg Ganssle: ... And thought his sister went off the deep end. But she became a Nazi, right? There's a picture of her with Hitler. And, and, so on the one hand, Nietzsche says lots of nasty things. On the other hand, he was resistant to antisemitism. It was one of the reasons he broke with the composer Wagner because of Wagner's antisemitism. And, and so how do you put these things together? Well, I have a couple of theories. One is the... I think in part Nietzsche was happy to say nasty things about the Jews even when his target was the Christians because-

Scott Rae: Oh

Greg Ganssle: ... Germans were pretty antisemitic. He'd get a lot of Christians nodding his head, their heads before they realized that the criticism was about them, although he was never shy about criticizing the Christians by name anyway. But the other thing is, I think back in America in the '50s, there was kind of a,

Greg Ganssle: permissiveness about how we talked about African Americans. You know, people who really were against discrimination would still use nasty language, and I, and I wonder... I'm not justifying that, but I wonder if some of that was going on for Nietzsche too. Other, other people who read Nietzsche or think, no, he was more antisemitic than he let on, but his opposition to these laws make me think he would've rejected the antisemitism. Now, the power he wouldn't have rejectedRight? The, the fact that Hitler came up as a strong man and positioned himself kind of as the ubermensch, I think, Nietzsche might have been a little more amenable to, although he would've criticized the nationalism that goes with that-

Scott Rae: I see

Greg Ganssle: ... I think.

Sean McDowell: So there's three other movements I wanna ask you about and make-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Connection, make the connections from kind of Nietzsche to them. Maybe we'll take them kinda one at a time so they don't get lost. I started reading post-modernism- ... 'cause it was all the rage in the '90s when I was-

Greg Ganssle: Right

Sean McDowell: ... A student here. I was reading Nietzsche and Derr- or actually, I did read Nietzsche, but Derrida and-

Greg Ganssle: Foucault

Sean McDowell: ... Lyotard and Foucault and all these guys. And Nietzsche was often cited as kind of the first or one of the first post-modern thinkers. Maybe arguably Kant before him really-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Opened up the door for this. But what's the connection between Nietzsche and post-modernism?

Greg Ganssle: Well, there is a strong historical connection, and there's a post-modern interpretation of Nietzsche which basically, in a nutshell, says that he rejects all truth. And I think that's false, because he clearly thought his things were true.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: And, you know, only sophomores make that mistake.

Scott Rae: Sure.

Greg Ganssle: [laughs] Where you say, "There is no truth," right? And, it... And I think the language where he rejects truth, some of it's very powerful, has to do with what he called metaphysical truth, that there's this- ... Deep reality about human nature and what it means to be human and moral truth.

Greg Ganssle: Kind of fairly early in his career, he describes himself as shifting from metaphysical philosophy to historical philosophy. And metaphysical philosophy looks for a source for everything important about human beings in something higher. That's what he rejects. You know, so in God or in-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Greg Ganssle: ... In abstract platonic forms or, you know, moral principles that stand above us. He rejects all of this. And so his language about rejecting truth is rejecting that truth is so important we have to give up everything to find it, this metaphysical kind of truth.

Sean McDowell: Okay, that makes sense, and that connects us, I know I'm butchering his name-

Greg Ganssle: That's fine

Sean McDowell: ... He's French, to Lyotard-

Greg Ganssle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... For lack of a better way to phrase it, that post-modernism is incredulity toward meta-narratives.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Sean McDowell: He has undermined the knowability and importance and existence of these metaphysical truths.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Sean McDowell: So we should be skeptical about knowing any of them and anyone who claims to know any of them.

Greg Ganssle: Exactly.

Sean McDowell: We see that thread in post-modernism. What about individualism?

Greg Ganssle: Individualism,

Greg Ganssle: I've, I'm trying to think if we should think of Nietzsche as the origin of that, but he's definitely, um-

Scott Rae: A ma- a main contributor

Greg Ganssle: ... A main contributor.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Greg Ganssle: He was very critical of anything based on egalitarianism. Right? Because egalitarianism is a Christian notion. It's that all human beings have equal dignity- ... Because they have the same metaphysical source. And once you give that up, and he was influenced by reading the biology of his day, and not that he reflects accurately about Darwin. He... People criticize his critique of Darwin, but he thought that Darwin and others had shown there is nothing special about human beings. And, and our myth of egalitarianism comes out of a myth that there is something special. And, and so the individualism he'd be very, influential on. I'm trying to think of-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, no, that-

Greg Ganssle: ... Off the top of my head where it emerges-

Scott Rae: That's helpful

Greg Ganssle: ... Later in the 20th century.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's totally fair. And individualism came obviously long before with poets going back to the 1700s and [laughs] before-

Greg Ganssle: Right, right

Sean McDowell: ... Before Nietzsche

Greg Ganssle: The Romantics were a big part of it.

Sean McDowell: Critical theory, it feels like the connection is pretty obvious. I was, a couple weeks ago with our students here at Biola, talking about it basically divides up the world into the oppressed [laughs] and the oppressor, and in some ways critical theory is just obsessed with power.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Does that really have roots tracing back to Nietzsche?

Greg Ganssle: I think Nietzsche is a con- contributor to this also, but the analysis into oppressed and oppressor goes back to Marx, of course. And, and what the-

Sean McDowell: Who predates-

Greg Ganssle: Who predates-

Sean McDowell: ... Nietzsche

Greg Ganssle: ... Nietzsche.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah. And, and, the notion that we see all social things through oppressor and oppressed bec- is a Marxian thing. Now, he had the one fundamental category of economics, and what the critical theorists do is expand that to other categories. And so the pattern of oppressor and oppressed is what we look for, and we see it economically, in sexuality, in all kinds of different things. But, Nietzsche's will to power, which is very closely connected with his individualism, it's... The will to power is much less power over others. It's more power over yourself to remain independent and unaffected. And so in a secondary way, it's power over others because you are extracting yourself from the human community, so to speak.

Scott Rae: Now, Greg, w- I think we've gotten a pretty good grasp on where Nietzsche is.

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: What are some of the main areas of critique that we can offer from a distinctly Christian... Worldview

Greg Ganssle: I think the first thing we wanna do is agree with him about certain things

Scott Rae: Such as?

Greg Ganssle: The way morality is often used, it can be a tool of, slavery. You must, you must do this

Sean McDowell: Like exploitation

Greg Ganssle: ... Exploitation. You think about Jesus' critique of the Pharisees. Well, Nietzsche would've made the same critique of the Pharisees. You bind up these burdens and put them on people. And, and it's-

Scott Rae: So it's a way to keep, it's a way to keep people in submission-

Greg Ganssle: It-

Scott Rae: ... And to help them-

Greg Ganssle: Exactly

Scott Rae: ... Be content with their submission.

Greg Ganssle: Exactly. And, and that also comes from Marx, the contentment that comes out-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Greg Ganssle: ... Of Christianity. So that's helpful, but then the Jesus critique is but the moral life is the good life for human beings. There actually is a teleology and a way to live. And so one of the great movements in Christian moral thinking over the, you know, during our lifetime, or it actually predates us a tiny bit, is the return to virtue theory and human flourishing as a, as a major moral category. And we see this in the whole biblical narrative. And this recovery is good because Nietzsche is trying to have a vision of flourishing, and we have a vision of flourishing. So the critique is, let me show you why our vision is better. And this is what I'm gonna try to do in my book. I'm gonna put Jesus and Nietzsche in conversation on their moral visions, and no, it's actually better for human beings to be in community and it... There's a sense in which, in a conversation with somebody who's influenced by Nietzsche to one degree or another, all we have to do is read the fruit of the spirit out of Galatians and ask the question, does that look like a good life or a bad life?

Scott Rae: As, as opposed to the deeds of the flesh.

Greg Ganssle: As opposed to the deeds of the flesh or the opposite of the fruit of the spirit. Don't you want your relationships to be characterized by love, joy, peace? I think it's the greatest apologetics verse for the next generation.

Sean McDowell: Oh, that's interesting.

Greg Ganssle: And, and it's like this is, this is the good human life. And, and it... In some ways, it's going to have to be shown rather than said. I mean, we need to say it.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Greg Ganssle: But it, but we wanna demonstrate, no, wait a minute. Is that vision of individualism, rejection of compassion, is that really the good life? Or is morality liberating? Think about j- what Jesus says, "The truth will set you free." Now, that's metaphysical truth and moral truth. Everyone who sins is a slave to sin. So what is it that actually liberates, and what is it that actually oppresses? I think that's kind of the terrain of our conversation.

Sean McDowell: I just have one last question for you.

Greg Ganssle: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Is Nietzsche is clearly not a dispassionate analytic philosopher-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... In the way he [laughs] writes, which makes him enjoyable and interesting-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And memorable. Do you have any sense, biographically speaking, where some of this animus and drive in his life comes from?

Greg Ganssle: It, it is intriguing to try to think about this because he was a very pious Christian as a child. His dad was a Lutheran minister. He comes from generations of Lutheran ministers.

Sean McDowell: Generations.

Greg Ganssle: And he and his sister would sell their toys and send the money to missionaries. And, and I think what began to happen for him when he went to this prestigious secondary school, a boarding school, he began... A couple of trends. He began to learn the latest scholarly critical, skills to use on texts. And when he-

Scott Rae: Higher criticism of the Bible

Greg Ganssle: ... Higher criticism of the Bible.

Scott Rae: Right.

Greg Ganssle: He was very influenced. I mean, he was originally taught to use it on Greek text. He was... He became a philologist, who was a s- a student of languages. And, and then he thought the Bible couldn't, stand to those things. But then there was this, the, there was this attraction to what he perceived as the Greek way of life n- before Socrates- ... Which was these people living these independent, strong, visions of life. He thinks Socrates ruined it by bringing morality in.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: And, and, I thought Socrates was a hero, but, you know.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Greg Ganssle: And, and so these are the things that shaped him, and I think the competing vision of what he saw in the Greeks when he was a teenager and what he saw in the church- ... Was the thing that really pushed him over. I keep thinking, if only there was a faculty member at that school that could engage the critical-

Scott Rae: Yes

Greg Ganssle: ... Thinking and say, "No, the, look, the scriptures can stand up to this. There is a vision of life, of wisdom and flourishing coming out of the scriptures."

Greg Ganssle: it might've been a very different story.

Sean McDowell: Engage the critical thinking and model the good life-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... To make it attractive, to bring it full circle to what you said earlier.

Greg Ganssle: Exactly.

Scott Rae: Which is precisely what we're trying to do in our philosophy and apologetics programs.

Greg Ganssle: Exactly.

Sean McDowell: And then-

Scott Rae: Is to equip people to do exactly that.

Greg Ganssle: Exactly.

Scott Rae: I've got one last question too.

Greg Ganssle: Sure.

Scott Rae: It, it seems to me one of the best arguments or one of the best critiques of Nietzsche's philosophy is to assume that he is right.And then what follows from that? If he's right about every- if God is dead and we ought to come out of the shadows-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Is that something that we can live with? That, I think-

Greg Ganssle: Yep

Scott Rae: ... So if we really came out of the shadows-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... What would that look like? I think, I think you hit on it. You know, what are the things that that dispenses with?

Greg Ganssle: I think that's a powerful line of thought. That's a, that's a critique 'cause his... You think about the appeal to be strong and individual and unaffected, and you think, "Wow, that is really attractive." But, you know, I'm gonna be 70 at the end of the year. I'm not gonna be strong for long.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: You know? I'm, I'm already not very strong.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: And, and the vision of the solitary individual, which has r- some roots in Romanticism, and he was very, aware of Romanticism,

Greg Ganssle: that only works when you're in your 20s- ... And you have, you see your life as this open vista. Well, that vista begins to close very soon.

Greg Ganssle: I think it's, I think it's unlivable in the long term or even the medium term. It's not a vision of life that sustains you. I guess, in short, the question we might ask Nietzsche is, and then what? Okay, so you-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Greg Ganssle: ... You embrace the Ubermensch, and then what? What do you do? Go have a cup of coffee and-

Scott Rae: Yeah. [laughs]

Greg Ganssle: ... And wallow in your greatness or something.

Scott Rae: Well, I think you recognize that, like, as y- as you pointed out, there's no eternity. There's no afterlife. There's no right and wrong. There's no purpose. There's no design. It's just as Dawkins put it, you know, life is full of blind, pitiless indifference.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Scott Rae: And I think if Nietzsche is right, that's what we have to live with.

Greg Ganssle: Yes, yes.

Scott Rae: Now I think what, you know, I think just being in the shadows with God being dead, I'm not sure is that much better, but that's why I think some of the, some of the most ardent atheists, some of the strongest critics of Christianity, you know, the new ath- the new atheists that are not so new anymore-

Greg Ganssle: Right

Scott Rae: ... You know, they have come out in pu- and been very public about saying, "Well, we're quite happy to live in a Christian culture as oppo-

Greg Ganssle: Right

Scott Rae: ... As opposed to some-

Greg Ganssle: Right

Scott Rae: ... Of the opposites.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Scott Rae: So it seems to me-

Greg Ganssle: That's interesting, yeah

Scott Rae: ... They're pretty happy to be in the shadows.

Greg Ganssle: Yes, 'cause life outside the shadows is pretty desperate. If you read The Madman passage- ... He a- he asks, "Who gave us the power to, the sponge with which we wiped away the entire horizon? Who unchained the Earth from its sun? Where are we going? We are plunging through darkness." And trying to get people like Dawkins to see, no, you can't reject God and rest in his shadow. It's, seems pretty bleak. Nietzsche never embraced that it was bleak. He thought this was a vision of flourishing.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Greg Ganssle: And, and I think you hold up an alternative vision, and it becomes clear-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Greg Ganssle: ... Really fast.

Scott Rae: Yeah. Now maybe at the end of the day, Nietzsche actually paved the way for people like Sartre and Camus-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Yeah, you know, who I think did their best to live out of the shadows-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... And try to reconstruct something that had, that made some sense-

Greg Ganssle: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... But with God being dead and also coming out of the shadows.

Greg Ganssle: Yes. Yeah, and even Sartre couldn't be consistent, right? He took moral stances on-

Scott Rae: Lots of, yes

Greg Ganssle: ... What was g- lots of things, even though he rejected morality and human nature and God. And it's very hard to, actually to be consistent with this because you're being I- rejecting this, you're re- you're not consistent with what it means to be human.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think we're just, we're not wired that way.

Greg Ganssle: No.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm. Greg, really fast.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: If somebody wants to read more about Nietzsche, I'm sitting here going, "Man, I need to read more of Nietzsche [laughs] after this talk."

Scott Rae: Exactly.

Greg Ganssle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We've got this book, The Devil Reads Nietzsche, just a solid kind of introduction to his thoughts and influence.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Sean McDowell: I tell my students all the time, grad and undergrads, read original sources.

Greg Ganssle: Right.

Sean McDowell: What book or two would it be wise for someone to start with of Nietzsche himself?

Greg Ganssle: I would start with On the Genealogy of Morality. It's one of his later works. It's less aphoristic. There's actually essays. And, you get a big picture of his rejection of morality there. I think, I think that's the place to start. And, and second, I might,

Greg Ganssle: This one's more difficult to read. I might read some from The Gay Science, um-

Sean McDowell: Which means The Happy Science is what we wanted to-

Greg Ganssle: The Happy Science

Sean McDowell: ... Translate.

Greg Ganssle: The Joyful Wisdom-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Greg Ganssle: ... Is also pronounced. The Joyful Wisdom sometimes. And it's a long, lots of aphorisms, but there are these passages like The Madman passage, The Eternal Recurrence- ... And things like this that are really striking.

Scott Rae: Yeah. Maybe full disclosure too, start with this.

Greg Ganssle: I think that's-

Scott Rae: The Devil Reads Nietzsche

Greg Ganssle: ... Good book to start with

Scott Rae: ... 'cause Nietzsche is, can be tough sledding-

Greg Ganssle: Yes

Scott Rae: ... In places.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Scott Rae: But I think that advice to go to original sources- ... Is a good, is good advice, but I would say to do that with a guide-

Greg Ganssle: Yes. This-

Scott Rae: ... On this one. Um-

Greg Ganssle: What McKeown does in this book is he is, he's a careful interpreter. There are a few things I think I wouldn't have gone that way with it, but, he's a careful interpreter, and he's charitable interpreter. So he doesn't fall for the rhetoric and then respond on that level. He says, "Okay, what is it, what's really going on here?" And, and you wanna read someone like that.

Sean McDowell: Good.

Greg Ganssle: Yep.

Scott Rae: Greg, thank you so much.

Greg Ganssle: Oh, sure.

Scott Rae: This has been incredibly helpful. I hope for, I hope for our listeners and viewers, you've, you've enjoyed this sort of introduction to the thought of a very influential thinker.

Greg Ganssle: Yes.

Scott Rae: And maybe not the most, but it definitely, as Greg mentioned, in the t- in the top five.

Greg Ganssle: Definitely in the top five. Yes.

Scott Rae: So we hope this has been helpful for you. We have, we have so enjoyed this conversation.

Sean McDowell: Oh, well, thanks.

Scott Rae: And I think we just tipped the tip of the iceberg here.

Sean McDowell: I think we did.

Scott Rae: There's so much farther that we could go, and we'll have to do that another time.

Greg Ganssle: That sounds great.

Sean McDowell: And by the way, if there's other thinkers listening to this going, "Wait a minute, you mentioned Hume. What about Foucault?" that you would want us to do a deep dive as well, email in and let us know 'cause we've got an A+ world-class faculty, and we can make that happen.

Scott Rae: We'll have Greg back for those.

Sean McDowell: There you go.

Greg Ganssle: [laughs] Not Foucault. I could do Hume, but, [laughs]

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Scott Rae: All right.

Greg Ganssle: Thank you.

Scott Rae: Thanks so much for listening.

Greg Ganssle: Thank you, guys.

Scott Rae: Hope you enjoyed this, and we'll see you next time. [outro music]