What is like to serve God under the siege of the war in Ukraine? What theological questions are raised as a result of the war, especially about the goodness and sovereignty of God? And how are the churches dealing with the trauma of war? We’ll address these questions and more with our guest Anna, faculty member at Talbot's Kyiv Theological Seminary.



Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] What's it like to serve God under the siege of war in the Ukraine? What theological questions are raised as a result of the war, especially about the goodness and sovereignty of God? And how are the churches dealing with the trauma of war? We'll address these questions and more with our guest, Anna, who will go by first name only to protect her identity. I'm your host, Scott Rae.

Sean McDowell: I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.

Scott Rae: This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Anna, you're a faculty member and grad, Talbot graduate, and on-site assistant at the Kyiv Theological Seminary in partnership with Talbot, and you've been in Ukraine dur-- for the duration of the war. So tell us a little bit, just what's it been like being in the country during this time of war?

Anna: Being in Ukraine during the wartime-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Anna: ... Feels like living in two overlapping realities. And those realities run on the parallel tracks, like ordinary life and constant threat, and we all learn how to walk with one foot in each world. Currently, we have daily power blackouts with several hours per day with power, internet, and electricity. However, the country keeps its pulse, so the coffee shops still work with generator power, students do their homework with the headlamps, and workers finish deadlines in shelters, having their kids nearby. During the nights, it's a different rhythm because people have to listen more than to sleep, and we learn all the sound signatures, like the difference between the attack drones, cruise missile, interceptors, explosions. [whooshing sound] And that knowledge that we have never asked to acquire, it just becomes instinct. But in the morning, we all thank God that we are still alive- ... And we go to work. And our work schedule is pretty simple: Whoever survived goes to the work.

Sean McDowell: Wow!

Scott Rae: I don't have a lot to say to that except- ... Yikes. That's pretty remarkable. That's really helpful to see life on those parallel tracks. Let me ask a follow, a follow-up on that. I s- I take it that, a number of your students and staff have been drafted into the military. What's that been like to see them go to the front, and, you know, face the possibility of maybe not coming back?

Anna: Basically, when people are taken to the army, we all face the reality that they might never come back. And so here is the questions of all our senses in life and life meaning, it just comes to the edge. You either trust the Lord or you don't trust the Lord- ... With everything that is happening. And it's not theoretical. It's really, like, living and vibrant. Every day you need to find out the answer to question, "Do I trust the Lord or not?" And we all know the answers. We cannot hide it from ourselves.

Sean McDowell: You know, we talk about trusting the Lord a lot in the West, in the US, but it can become academic and rhetoric, and you're speaking, like you said, from living it out moment by moment and being really forced to put your theological and biblical beliefs to the test. A part of the challenge is you're a part of Kyiv Theological Seminary. What's it like trying to continue with theological education for the church in the midst of such an unsettling war?

Anna: It's really challenging because our lectures, are usually interrupted by a siren, and then all the students need to relocate to a shelter. The students write their exegetical papers between blackouts, and professors, at the same time, are trying to prepare their lectures also by the candlelight. However, we see that the hunger for theological learning has intensified. People have more theological questions, and it's not theoretical, but it's like survival questions. How do we keep, working? How do we keep living? How do we keep walking in the faith? People are hungry for real God's Word, not something theoretical, but they want to see God's presence in the midst of circumstances they are in. And so the students start reading Scripture with a different seriousness, not just like people who want to learn something, but people who desperately need the Word because they need it in their reality. We also see that churches need more leaders than ever, and so the theological education becomes both a refuge and a forge, like a place where leaders rest, and at the same time, a place where they are reshaped for harder work. So our classrooms, they turn into spiritual mentoring rooms, where they are asking questions, and they are living God's presence, getting ready to go back to their churches and to serve them.

Scott Rae: So, Anna, let me be a little more specific. You said there, the students are raising theological questions that they maybe haven't thought about before because of the context of war. What, what's, what are some of the specific theological questions that are being raised or sharpened that have come about as a result of the war?

Anna: Every time that the tragedy happens, it reshapes the theology that the person has.... And so our students have questions about suffering, and where is the God in the midst of suffering? Questions about God's providence, about hope, about justice. It's not enough just to know God, but you need to feel Him present. You need really to believe what He's saying, to know what He has promised to you. It's not just, like, theoretical hope. They need it daily.

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.

Anna: So they ask those questions, and during the lectures, when they study the history of the church, they study theology, they, learn to see God, who is powerful and who is in every historical period. And that's when they realize God is at work now here also. He is not just controlling all the world history. He's controlling their life. He's still committed to His plan, and they're a part of that plan. And then the answer why they have survived another night, because God is still having plans for them, and they need to be obedient to the calling. It's like understanding that crisis doesn't cancel the calling, doesn't cancel God's power, and the war doesn't cancel God's power, doesn't cancel their calling. So the obedience comes with a different cost, but it also brings new, deep senses to the life. You know why you're living.

Sean McDowell: Well, one of the classes I teach at Talbot is on the question of: Why does God allow evil? And, of course, everybody experience it in varying degrees in their lives, but the way you describe what the students are going through makes this pressing, quite literally, moment by moment. There's probably not any moment that it's not in the back of their mind that evil and suffering will not only continue, but could hit them even more personally. I'd love to hear just from you, how you and the team there address the seminary students and the Christian community in general, about evil and suffering, and just the goodness of God amidst the war that you're going through.

Anna: Basically, we see that the situation has intensified these questions, like the problem of evil and suffering. When you see that evil and suffering in your own life, you need to learn to see God's presence in the midst of that suffering. We all know about God's sovereign plan, but to learn to trust God's sovereignty is a totally different measure of life. So basically, I would say that many questions that we have answers to, theoretically, we need to live it through in our own lives. It's like the questions about human dignity, how to maintain a Christian attitude, even in the face of inhuman aggression. What does it mean to be a good neighbor to somebody who is in need next to me? What is their hope, and how we can speak realistically about Christian hope without losing honesty about pain? And so here we have less theoretical words, but more honesty about the brokenness of world, brokenness of life, our own broken lives, and to learn to see ourselves, how God is present in these circumstances of brokenness, and to explain it to other people. 'Cause there are many people in the churches nowadays who are coming from atheistic background. They don't know God, and they're raising the questions about the justice and why God doesn't stop it, and so we need to address those questions more honestly, finding the truth that God is still working out His plan. We might not see it, we might not see the justified end of the war, but at the same time, we need to trust His big plan.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think you all are in a, in a situation where it's, it's particularly challenging, I think, to trust in a bigger plan that you can't, you can't see how all the pieces yet fit together. And that may be, that may be something that, you know, like many of the, many of the whys in our lives, we have to wait till eternity to see how all of this fits together into a coherent whole. And to trust in the midst of that, I think, is... I would find incredibly challenging. And I commend you all for continuing to trust God and to model that for your students and for your community. Now, a question I have, I've, I've read just from other- about other seminaries in Ukraine, who have, who have been involved in, you know, serving refugee communities, and, you know, continuing theological education, but also just sort of recognizing that it's-- that, we need, we need everybody to help deal with the aftermath of the destruction of the war. How has the mission of Kyiv Seminary expanded or changed over the course of the war?

Anna: I cannot say that the war has changed our mission. We still have the same mission, but the mission has significantly, intensified.... So the main calling of Kyiv Theological Seminary, as well as the Talbot School of Theology, is to train mature ministers that are capable of serving the church and society. And so this has remained unchanged. However, the context of the war required us to adapt really quickly, and so we have significantly strengthened the training of chaplains, crisis response ministers, and leaders who know how to serve people in states of stress, loss, and trauma. So our training has become more practical and focused on ministry in conditions of danger, humanitarian crisis, and emotional exhaustion. So it didn't change, but it grew deeper and more practical.

Sean McDowell: You mentioned earlier how kind of the theology of the students is being tested out in just such a pressing, unique way in the midst of war. I'm really curious if there are some theological issues with students being drafted into the war. For example, are there some students who were pacifists, theologically or philosophically, find themselves being drafted, and either it shifts their views or how they address that tension?

Anna: We do have tension because, a Christian believers have different understanding of war and, how they can participate in the war. Some of our teachers, including the director of the Talbot program, Dr. Borisov, have been mobilized. Many students have been mobilized, and some are serving as soldiers, chaplains, medics, or simply humanitarian projects. So our approach is to respect the freedom of consciences, and it means to recognize both the Bible and the Ukrainian law. Our role is not to impose a position, but instead to foster maturity so that everyone can act responsibly according to their convictions before God, and to defend our country accordingly, with responsibility. And there are different ways how people can do it. Not everybody should be on the front line. Not everybody should be a chaplain, let's say. [chuckles] So we are praying that the students have maturity and wisdom, how they can protect the country, both physically and spiritually, using different options that are available.

Scott Rae: Let me ask you another question. The, is the, [clears throat] the campus and the buildings where you house the school, have those been damaged at all by some of the bombing and the shelling?

Anna: Thank God, it is still safe. We have a shelter, and students usually hide there during the air raid sirens. But, in the surrounding area, around the seminary, it's like one mile, of the territory distance, several buildings were hit, and one of the buildings that was hit, it is a building where several of our KTS staff are living, and so God just spared their lives. They were not inside the buildings at the night of the strike, and so they are safe. But it's really close because we're in the midst, of the city, and usually during the strikes, the enemy doesn't care if it is a factory or residential building where many people live.

Scott Rae: Yeah, 'cause I remember within the first few days of the war, we got reports that, a, an apartment building, a ten, twelve-story apartment building that was just down the street from the campus was hit and basically destroyed. And so we've been, we've been praying for you all for some time, but, and it's, it's good news to hear that the campus is still relatively safe-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... Given where you are. Now, there's also been a lot of discussion about the resilience of the Ukrainian people. In fact, when our, when our dean, Ed Stetzer, and, former director of the Tal- the, on our end, Mark Soucy, were over there last summer, they talked about how the country was rebuilding at the same time that it was fighting the war. So what-- tell us a little bit about what you've seen in the resilience of the Ukrainian people, and what's, what's some of the evidence of that that you see?

Anna: The life continues to go on. You don't stop living even after something has happened. Even after the tragedy, people need to go to work, they need to cook, they need to take kids to the kindergarten, and so this is the resilience, just keeping with the daily routine. So usually after the strikes, the shop, the shops reopen, and really quickly. There are many weddings happening, kids are born, and we celebrate that. We see that universities and schools, they run hybrid classes. The life is going on, but the main resilience that I see, I see it in students that come to KTS. One of my students, he's serving in the air defense team, so every night he's on a shift to protect Kyiv, and during the daytime, he's sleeping usually. He was asking for some extension time to submit the paper, and I really appreciate that he's finding several hours. Instead of sleeping, he's writing the paper because he cannot write it during any other time.... I have another student, who is female, and just recently she has recovered from cancer. She always has dreamed about getting theological education. And right now, during the war, after she survives cancer, she said, "I don't want to postpone my life anymore. I don't know how many other years I have, so I just want to apply and to study while I have today." So many students make those decisions just thinking about their life in the terms of today. "I have only today. What can I do? I will go and I will study. I will go, and I will serve." And that, I would say, is the best reaction to what is happening, the real resistance. It's like, "I don't have tomorrow. I cannot plan my life, but I have today, and today I will preach, I will study, I will be with the pe- the people who need us."

Sean McDowell: Those are two amazing stories that I definitely want our students to not miss and just not take for granted the opportunity to study theology anywhere in the world. But to hear somebody who is recovering or recovered from cancer and wants to study theology, somebody who's literally defending the city of Kyiv, and then studying and writing papers whenever he can because he loves it and sees it's important, that's just an encouragement and really a warning to the rest of us to not take for granted the opportunity that we have to learn, and grow, and study at a place like Kyiv Theological Seminary here at Talbot. I mean, what an- what a... Those are remarkable stories I will definitely take with me. I do have a question for you. I'm curious about, say, those outside of the church. Is there just a sense of those just like, "We're just trying to survive, and we're trying to just feed our family and get through this war"? Or is there any sense of, like, an increased spiritual openness or spiritual closedness because of the war? What's your sense basically of how, you know, the past, time since this war began has affected those outside of the church?

Anna: Many people were engaged with, Evangelicals at the very beginning of the war, when there were millions who became internally displaced, and their route of, evacuation usually went through the network of Evangelical churches. And so they were astonished and amazed that there are so many Christians that are serving them. Although in Ukraine, many people believe that Evangelical churches are some kind of a sect or cult. And so to see the presence of Evangelical believers who are not running, but staying and serving them, it was, the first step closer to God. And many of those people, they came to the church. They got baptized. Like, even in my own church, it's almost half of the church members today, there are those people who came just during the last several years. We were helping them, we were feeding them, and usually we heard the question like: "Why don't you run? Why are you still here? We know that you have friends outside abroad who will help you." And we were saying that we want to be with them in our country, to serve them because we love God, and that's why we love them. So I would say that the war, and the struggle, and the tragedy opens the hearts of people. And seeing Evangelicals close to them and present, that is a game changer, I would say.

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Anna: We can say many nice words, we can pray, but when your presence is life of the person, it's so different.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Anna: They can feel God's presence when we are present in their life.

Scott Rae: I think that's what the Bible means when it talks about the bo- the body of Christ. You know, the Church being that representative, the arms and feet of Jesus to the people in the community. That's so encouraging to hear, to see God moving in some pretty significant ways in the lives of people through what you all are modeling, and others. A couple other questions, Anna. What gives you hope? And then how can our listeners pray for you all at Kyiv Theological Seminary?

Anna: Our main hope is not the hope for restored country, not hope for better economy, not even the hope of luxury, of planning the life, but the hope lies in who God is. God is powerful. God knows what He's doing. We trust Him. We usually plan our life, having our own picture of how we serve God. We want to be heroes for the church history, [chuckles] doing something great for God. But the only thing that God is expecting for us is to be obedient here and now. And so learning to be obedient is my small life puzzle, that I don't know how it fits the picture. Knowing that God is great, that gives a hope. And daily, we need again and again to assure ourselves that we know God, who we believe in Him. We know He's powerful, and we see Him moving. We see His power-... Especially now. We can see light in the darkness, and now we see God's light in this total darkness. And so we do have hope, because we are people of hope, not of despair. And especially with the Christmas message that Emmanuel is with us, God is with us, is so powerful, and we are, like, living in a Christmas season for last four years. God is with us.

Scott Rae: Interesting. How, how can, how can our listeners pray for you all?

Anna: We would appreciate your prayers for peace in Ukraine, for the war to end.

Anna: But moreover, I would like you to pray for us to have power of God, to move by God's power, to be empowered with the Spirit. We need Him more than ever, and we know that He can use us the way He wants, as long as He wants, and we need to be a spiritual stone for that. So please pray for us to be empowered with the Spirit, and for peace.

Scott Rae: Wow, Sean, I don't know about you, but, uh- ... This is, this has been very moving to hear how faith- how important faithfulness is in the midst of these incredibly trying, challenging circumstances, and how it's, it's forced the folks there to live sort of one day at a time. I was struck s- you know, often, Anna, by, when you're saying that, you know, "If you survive the night, we'll go to work the next day." And if, you know, and we live sort of one day at a time, knowing that it could be our last. But yet, you know, trust, trusting God in the, in the midst of, you know, not really, not really knowing how this all fits together yet into a coherent whole. We s- we s- we are so appreciative of you all, and so proud of how you re- are representing not only Talbot School of Theology, but representing the Kingdom of God in the midst of the war in Ukraine. So, Anna, thank you. We really appreciate you being with us. This has been just a rich conversation, and so delighted to have our listeners on the prayer team for you, and the school going forward.

Anna: Thank you for the invitation, and thank you for praying for us. We really feel that God's body, God's Church, is so big, because we feel your concern and your prayers, and I'm sure that your prayers keep us alive.

Scott Rae: Yeah. Well, we will continue to pray. We have been for some time, and we will continue to pray. And for our listeners, I hope you caught the gravity of that it's our prayers that are keeping them alive, is the way they see it. So very profound. So grateful for you coming on with us, and, we will, you know, we will continue to pray [clears throat] and continue to be grateful for what God's doing in Ukraine and through the great work of Kyiv Theological Seminary. This has been an episode of Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture. We welcome your comments and questions. If you have, guests you'd like us to consider or questions that you have for us, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. [upbeat music] it's brought to you by Talbot School of Theology. We have, we have programs all over the place, graduate, undergrad, programs in Ukraine and other parts of the world. And you can visit talbot.edu in order to learn more about those. We, we appreciate you giving us a rating on your podcast app, and feel free to join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]