Lovingly Confronting Silence & Arrogance

Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] Hey, friends. Welcome to a unique episode of the Think Biblically podcast. I have Pastor Shane Idleman in studio today, and we're trying to talk about how do we balance grace and truth. What does that look like to be loving and gracious towards our neighbors, but to speak biblical truth? This is something I wrestle with almost every day, and my friend Shane is bold, and he's clear. He's thought about this. He really shares how God humbled him, but he's also a bold speaker of truth. So I think you're gonna really enjoy this episode. And if you do, which I suspect you do, please consider sharing it with a friend. After the death of Charlie Kirk, there seems to be two general responses. One, now is the time to go on the offensive.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: The time for charity and kindness is over. Two, we need to talk with one another more than ever, and we need to calm down some of the rhetoric-

Shane Idleman: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Build bridges. I know that's a simplification, but tell me where you land on that and why.

Shane Idleman: I think, you know, and you might hear me say this a few times as we talk, but it's so important to be filled with the Spirit of God, to be humble-

Sean McDowell: Amen

Shane Idleman: ... Broken, time with the Lord in His Word. And then from that reservoir of intim-im-intimacy with Him, you're gonna know how to handle these issues because both cowardliness, not saying anything, and arrogantly beating people up with your words, both come from a fleshly desire. It's the flesh taking over. So, I think on one hand, we need to speak the truth in love a lot more, but on the other hand, we've gotta make sure it's the right tone, the right, the rhetoric and the anger. I mean, America right now is extremely angry, but are we broken? You know, we're upset, but are we humble? And so I know some people won't wanna hear that, but it needs to come from that type of heart because it's hard to say, "Here's how you need to act." When? What about if my actions require silence, and just loving the person, listening to them? What about if my actions at a, at a different point required me, you know what? I-I've had enough. And you're gonna say something. School board meetings or whatever's going on, [laughs] you know? And so being sensitive to the leading of the Spirit 'cause I don't think we can just throw a blanket statement on everything. You know, for example, if I said, "Yeah, speak the truth in love and fight back," and that's gonna send the wrong message. But at the same time, "Oh, don't say anything. Just turn the other cheek." It's funny, Jesus didn't turn the other cheek when He was slapped.

Sean McDowell: That's true.

Shane Idleman: He said, "Why? What, why, what evil have I done? Why have you slapped me?" And so I think it there's no blanket approach, if that makes sense.

Sean McDowell: It does, yeah.

Shane Idleman: It's it's being very sensitive-

Sean McDowell: So your approach is not gonna be, for lack of a better ... I guess, dictated by the cultural moment, whatever that is.

Shane Idleman: Not at all, no.

Sean McDowell: No, not at all. Not even one bit. It's more like I get my life right before the Lord- ... Filled with the Spirit. There's a time for grace. There's a time for truth, and that's the way it's always been since the beginning, the way it always will. Is that a fair synopsis

Shane Idleman: I think it is, but of course, we have to be sensitive to where the culture is, you know, because, there is a time and a place to put on the big boy pants and say something.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: You know? Or do ... I mean, when you look at, where the state of our nation is, I think a lot of it has to do with the the silence in the pulpits. The pulpits are not proclaiming ... You look at the top 10 pastors right now and watch their messages. You're not gonna hear repentance, the blood of Christ, judgment, the cross, all these foundational things. So looking at the state of the church and the culture, I think it will require action, but also, it has to come from the reservoir of that time spent with God. And I've noticed, maybe you have, too, the more time I spend with God, the bolder I become. Interesting, right? Now, that, now, boldness doesn't always mean loud and in your face. It sometimes means that gentle unwavering or that gentle pushback. And I've just noticed over seasons of fasting and spending time with God, the Word of God comes alive. Like just last week, when God told Jeremiah, "Don't diminish one word. Don't diminish one word. Preach what I've called you to preach." And you look at Jeremiah 23, the false prophets. Actually, a sure sign of a false prophet is saying, "Peace God's happy with our life. Don't worry." "Man, God's not upset. He's a doting grandfather." "He's a cosmic ball of love. Peace, man." And He, God said, "I've not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I've not spoken, but they spoke. But had they truly stood in my counsel," the Word of God, "they could've turned this nation back to me. My Word's like a hammer. It's like a fire that devours."

Sean McDowell: So that's part of the tension, right?

Shane Idleman: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Is we are called to be peacemakers-

Shane Idleman: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... But not false peace-

Shane Idleman: Exactly

Sean McDowell: ... That avoids the truth of the Gospel and sin before the Lord, et cetera.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: How we balance those two is kind of the constant tension. Now, I wanna come back, not right now, but I wanna come back to a few things you said about the purpose of the pulpit, which is really important today.

Shane Idleman: It is, yeah.

Sean McDowell: How being in Scripture gives you more boldness. But for me is, I was thinking about this conversation. Some of the hardest issues that I deal with as an apologist are not violence in the Old Testament, and those are legitimate [laughs] tough questions.

Shane Idleman: They are, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Not like the morality of, say, hell, how God could be justified with that, or claims that the Gospels contradict, or scientific challenges to God. Those are not the toughest ones.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: The hardest questions I tend to deal with are more personal for people-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And for myself. How do I balance grace, and how do I balance truth? In our culture, where there's such competing different worldviews, sometimes I'm like, "I don't know which voice is the best for right now."

Shane Idleman: So good.

Sean McDowell: ... Help me ... And I have my response to that in some ways, but I wanna know how you think about balancing grace and truth, and I would just frame it, you're right that there should be eternal principles But we live in such an angry, divided church that rewards people for responding in a certain way-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm. True

Sean McDowell: ... Which some ways militates against what should be a biblical approach.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So what's your thinking through in how you balance grace and truth in your life, and maybe with people in your church?

Shane Idleman: Well, you know what, you, right at the beginning, what you just said is so important for people to realize, the reason it's easier for us to answer, you know, how could a loving God allow this in the Old Testament, all right, wipe out the city? Or how do you, how do you know the Pauline epistles, or how do you know the Gospels are accurate, or how do you... You know, because there's a standard answer that's very, no matter who... I mean, your dad's book really helped

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: ... When I came back to the Lord-

Sean McDowell: Really?

Shane Idleman: ... On Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

Sean McDowell: Oh, no way.

Shane Idleman: Absolutely. I couldn't put that thing down. I highlighted it, and it really internalized it.

Sean McDowell: Oh, my goodness.

Shane Idleman: But when it comes to these issues, it's like, where do you offer, you know, as one example, the pronoun idea. If I'm in Starbucks and I say, "Hey, thanks, Chris." He goes, "Oh, I'm he/him." Probably not gonna, you know, "Okay, thanks, and have a good day." [laughs]

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: But if it's a constant, like I'm working with him, or I'm seeing him every day, at some point, maybe I'm, "Lord, what do you want me to do? I wanna just have grace and love, but at the same time, this is... I can't personally do that." And so maybe the boldness to say, "Hey, why do you say..." And open that conversation. So it depends on the situation. It depends on, sometimes you need to speak up, you know, but other times we need to offer that love and grace. So how do I find the balance? Well, number one, I know we're not Jesus.

Sean McDowell: Amen to that.

Shane Idleman: Like, he

Sean McDowell: Did

Shane Idleman: ... And grace. But I also look at, I love context, which I know you do as well. Context, and you actually challenged me. You probably won't, don't remember this. About 10 years ago we spoke together at Hume Lake, and I used, "If my people, who are called by my name, humble themselves."

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: And you said, "Well, that's really for Israel." I'm like-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: ... "Well, that's a good point." And so it is. I

Sean McDowell: Say that to you? I don't even remember this.

Shane Idleman: No, it was in a

Sean McDowell: I didn't even know you

Shane Idleman: ... It was in a good way.

Sean McDowell: And I just said, like-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... I just challenged your, like-

Shane Idleman: And yet, but that was, and I didn't push back-

Sean McDowell: Huh

Shane Idleman: ... 'cause it's like, 'cause you're right, because-

Sean McDowell: Huh

Shane Idleman: ... You know, God said, "I wanna bring pestilence, famine, and drought if my people are called by my name." So you can have, okay, that context is Israel, but I think the principle still applies. For example, if America humbled herself, but God's judged, judges people differently, nation.

Sean McDowell: I understand.

Shane Idleman: I mean, that's a whole nother-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: So my point is, I look at context of, speak the truth in love, right?

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Shane Idleman: Well, if you look at the beginning and the end, it's about maturing and growing up in the faith. So it's like we must speak the truth in love in order that people mature and grow up in the faith. Ironically, I'm driving here this morning, and I had this perfect example. A friend of mine spoke for me last night, on Wednesday night. His name's Chris. And I challenged him over a decade ago because he was involved with what I say hyper-charismatic, you know, kind of... And I, and I just lovingly, times I would, I'd say, "Man, you gotta just be careful because..." And then he, now he thanks me. But back then-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: ... It was a little... And you're not, you're not overly-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: ... You know, pushy, but like-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: ... "Have you thought about this?"

Shane Idleman: so to answer the question more directly, each situation requires probably... And I have to watch it 'cause if I'm, if I'm moody, if I'm in

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: I mean, type A personality-

Sean McDowell: Not sleepy or [laughs]

Shane Idleman: I mean, you talked about this, which we agree on. There are different callings.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shane Idleman: You know, your calling is gonna be maybe more gentler and and more, just love, you know, John the, John the Beloved. Where he, God's wired me as John the Baptist, right? So I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a little bit more in your face with the sermons and but I see the fruit. I see the just changed lives. I see that. And so knowing I can't equally balance that tension, right? I don't think, "Man, I've lived perfectly this week. I perfectly balance grace and love, and grace and truth." So speaking the truth in love when it needs to be said, spending that time with God. Err... I think the New Testament's clear, you err on the side of grace. I, you know, I think we could agree, you, if you're gonna err, you're probably gonna err on the side of grace. But there comes a time and a place where you've got to speak the truth in love. And what does grace look like? It doesn't mean sweeping sin underneath the the carpet. It means, to me, grace means, "Hey, you know what? I know you fell. We've talked about that before. You know where I stand, but you know what? You gotta get back up and keep fighting." And so you were able to lovingly rebuke. And so that's what I do at my church. It depends what the person's going through. If I've got a dad who's unrepentant, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shoot him pretty straight.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: "And look what you're doing to your family. Look what it's costing-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Shane Idleman: ... Your kids." And I'll put on this, you know... But if there's another guy just came in and he's struggling with alcohol, and he fell again, "Man, just get back up. Get to that altar. Get..." So it depends on really where the, where the Spirit's leading me. I mean, that's not a cop-out, but I think it's-

Sean McDowell: No, that-

Shane Idleman: ... You know, and being, and being careful because our emotions play a role in that too.

Sean McDowell: I don't think, I don't think that's a cop-out. I think we all want a line of exactly what we're supposed to do.

Shane Idleman: I do. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: It's natural, but life is messy.

Shane Idleman: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Part of my answer when I get, when I get asked this question is I say, we're gonna have to live in the tension of grace and truth.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And if you're not living in that tension, either you're probably speaking too much truth or showing too much grace in the sense

Shane Idleman: True

Sean McDowell: ... Not speaking truth.

Shane Idleman: True.

Sean McDowell: So, there's kind of a natural push and pull because I hear new circumstances, I hear new issues, I'm in the moment. So I think all of us are gonna have to live

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... A certain tension. But the other piece I also think is, you we were at an event, I don't know, six or eight weeks ago, pastors conference for KKLA, and you also said something that's been in the back of my mind. You said to me, you said, you said, "I'm more like," referring to yourself, "a John the Baptist."

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: "You might be more like a John the Beloved."

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: And I, that, like, really hit me. I've been thinking about that because I remember A spiritually pivotal moment for me is I was sitting here at Biola in the Eagle's Nest, and I was reading a book by Brennan Manning, and he made a point that seems so obvious now, but at the point-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Was game changing. He said, "Spiritual maturity for different people will look different-

Shane Idleman: True

Sean McDowell: ... Based on their giftings."

Shane Idleman: True.

Sean McDowell: And for me at that point, spiritual maturity was my father.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: And so I thought, "If I'm not as bold as he is, and I had certain characteristics that define him-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Then I'm not spiritually mature." And I remember reading that going, "Oh, my goodness. There are certain spirits of the fruit in his life I want, but I'm also wired differently."

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: "So it might look a little bit differently." Do you agree that when we talk about, like, the tension between grace and truth, we have different wirings, and it's not gonna look the same for you-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... As it does-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... For me?

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And should we celebrate that? And maybe we go wrong when we think, "I'm a truth teller, and if everybody's not like

Shane Idleman: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Then they're erring." That's what I think concerns me.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Or on the flip side, someone's like, "I just, I show grace. Everybody needs to show grace." It's like, yeah, but I do have a prophetic [laughs] voice and this person needs to repent. That's kinda what I see. Your thoughts?

Shane Idleman: Yeah. That's, it's exactly, you summed it up well- ... Because how God has wired us. And I've ... I think what this conversation started with you, I don't remember how it came up, but why, and even why I started think it, think that many years ago is, I've got pastor friends, and they are, it just incredible. I mean, I've listened to sermons. I don't think they ever get ... What's a good word? You know, fired up.

Sean McDowell: Animated. [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Animated. Right. It's just they're just, man, good teachers and solid and, you know, Chuck Smith's example, you know- ... Down at Calvary Chapel's. Or, I mean, we can list a lot of good teachers. Even John MacArthur's kind of just just that straight. But he was bold.

Sean McDowell: Very professorial.

Shane Idleman: So you compare him with Chuck, say, or, you know, like when I was studying theology, I would read Jack Hayford and John MacArthur, you know, try to find that balance.

Sean McDowell: Oh, that's interesting.

Shane Idleman: So I think there is a wiring. Like, God is, you know, let's say, God, I've given you this burden in your heart to call the nation to repentance, and you're gonna be bold in in repentance and just pressing in and animated like a Whitefield or a Wesley. And you read their journals compared to Jonathan Edwards, who was very just reading his manuscript, where other people preached their whole body, and their messages were different. And so that's what I mean. It's kind of to compliment people because I would get a lot of people, "I wish my pastor was like you." Well, no, you don't. You're just, glad I'm bold, and you're not ... You know, in six months from now you'll have issues with me, too.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Right?

Sean McDowell: That's probably true

Shane Idleman: ... Or other church, "Oh, man, Shane needs to calm down a little bit."

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Right? "He's just too ... "

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shane Idleman: Like, you know? And so you realize, you know, I'm just gonna be comfortable in how God designed me. And, there are, I believe there are different callings. And we talked about before, even with political arena, thank God for the Tony Perkins or Dobsons ... Those even though that might not be somebody else's wheelhouse.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shane Idleman: Like, why are they so involved? Well, you should thank them that they are. And why are you so involved? Well, I'm not. And okay, well, glad you're not because your main calling's the homeless and your ministry, and, you know, you don't ... So I, what happens is we become wrongly judgmental, is where I'm trying- ... To get to. I see a lot of people wrongly judgmental, like, "I'm bold. I'm this bold pastor. I've got the 100,000 Instagram followers, and I call it out, and these other pastors are weak, and they're woke, and ..." Not necessarily. It could be different callings, you know? Different, the way God has wired us differently, and thank God for that. So it just was a real ... I went through a Pharisee season. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Okay, now hold-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Hold that. I wanna come back to that.

Shane Idleman: Okay.

Sean McDowell: This is actually really important. But when you said you're comf- I think you used the word I'm comfortable in my calling.

Shane Idleman: Yes.

Sean McDowell: I wanna clarify what you mean by that because I'm comfortable in the sense of I know who God has called me to be.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And I'm an apologist. I speak truth, but I consider myself a relational apologist. I like to have conversations. I'm not threatened by people who see the world differently.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: I've had some debates, and I enjoy it as much as the next person. I have a competitive edge about me.

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: But I'm just drawn to, like, sit down and connect with people.

Shane Idleman: Connect, yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's my lane. So I'm comfortable in that, but I also don't wanna be too comfortable.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: I do ... Like, just two weeks ago, I had a, I had a professor here, and he goes, "Sean, sometimes you say things like, you know, 'This gives me pause.'"

Shane Idleman: Pause for concern or something.

Sean McDowell: Yeah. He goes, "Sometimes just tell people what you think." And I was like, "You know what? You're probably-

Shane Idleman: That's a good point

Sean McDowell: ... Right about that."

Shane Idleman: Yeah, that's a good point.

Sean McDowell: Sometimes I might nuance things too much 'cause I wanna think about it.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: Like, that's a fair challenge to me.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So I'm comfortable in my arena, but I also wanna be made uncomfortable so I can grow and get better. So tell me what that means for you

Shane Idleman: You-

Sean McDowell: ... In God's design, but uncomfortable at the same time when someone pushes you.

Shane Idleman: You actually just revealed a goldmine here I hope people realize because some people can be comfortable and not offending, like that's my goal, where maybe a bold preachers, pastors can be ... They, man, they want to offend, and that's not good either. They've gotta, they've gotta-

Sean McDowell: For the sake of offending. Like-

Shane Idleman: They gotta put on the brakes where somebody else might need to put on the gas. So what I mean is, and I don't know who you used to ... Like, who do you gravitate towards, as you're, when you're younger? I mean, what type of books and speakers? For me, I loved books on revival. American church history, First Great Awakening, Second Great Awakening. I mean, I devoured those. New Hebrides revivals, Duncan Campbell. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones recommended-

Sean McDowell: Oh, yeah

Shane Idleman: ... D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones recommended a series of books, men like Hal Harris, Griffin Jones, Daniel Rollands in Welsh, in Scott- I don't know why, but God, because that's how I'm wired. And then so I like the Wilkerson, Ravenhill, Tozers.

Sean McDowell: Okay. All right.

Shane Idleman: Like, 'cause that's how I'm wired.

Sean McDowell: All right.

Shane Idleman: And but that's a hard calling. Because you do convict. You do upset more than most. You say it like it is, and I finally just got comfortable with that. Like, okay, this is how I'm wired, you know, because I came out of the fitness industry. I was a district manager, running fitness centers, and so I was a motivational speaker. Right?

Sean McDowell: This is before you're even a Christian,

Shane Idleman: Well, I, it's a transitionary period.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shane Idleman: I'm I, it ... God used that to bring me back, the prodigal son come home. But I would go in, like, "Okay, fill out surveys." You know, what was the speaker's appearance? How did they ... And so it's all based on men's approval, a motivational speaker. Motivate. Now, it's like spending time with God. The Word's coming alive in my heart, and just preach it. And it's ... When you do that, you it's not, it's not always popular. And so I had to become comfortable in the calling that God has given me to say the hard things. And I believe the more God has called a person to be that that voice of truth and that, like you said, that prophetic voice, I believe there are different ... The, you actually, the more humble you have to be. Because pride is self-exaltation, and I'm always right, and, that's how you fall in ministry is because of pride. So you have pride on the sense of us who are bold, but you also have pride on the other hand, what we call the woke or whatever you wanna call it, the cowardly, that they don't wanna offend anybody. They don't upset anybody. And in the gospel, Oswald Chambers actually says the message of the gospel hurts and offends until there's nothing left to hurt and to offend.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: And he's true. And so that side, I'm not saying you, the other side-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, this side

Shane Idleman: ... Has, they have to, they have to, they have to spend time with God and get that boldness back, get that fire of the Spirit back. And then others of us have to spend that time with God to stay humble, and to be broken and pliable and usable by him. So that's, I have to get comfortable because it's a hard calling, ... To ... I mean, you look at Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, you know, the major, the voices that really spoke God's Word faithfully, and even difficult to a nation that didn't wanna hear it's, it is hard. So that's why I'm become comfortable with, I'm gonna ruffle feathers. I ... But you, the the testimonies that come in are just amazing, and so you have to look at that fruit as well.

Sean McDowell: So let's go to your backstory. What you said at the beginning was, something to the effect of being bold, like America, you know, there's a truth and a boldness, but is America broken?

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: You and I were speaking at an event a few weeks ago, and you texted me on my way out as I'm driving home, like right when I got in my car to hit traffic for, like, two hours.

Shane Idleman: Perfect timing.

Sean McDowell: And it was a message that you shared. And Shane, I was in tears-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... As I was driving down, I don't know if it was the 5 or whatever freeway it was, and just thinking, "Oh, my goodness. Here's somebody from the outside, is like a bold truth speaker."

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: And we've done a few events together. That's my sense. But whoa, like this story and what just struck me is, like, a humility and a willingness to speak about your brokenness.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: Talk about that season and what happened, if you will.

Shane Idleman: Yeah, that was, that was at a pastors conference in Ohio, Salem Web Network was, and I was the keynote speaker. And, you know, "Before God uses a man greatly, he often hurts him deeply," A.W. Tozer would say. So it's been a process of, I don't know how much to open up with, but in my 20s, walking away from God, you know, it it cost a lot, and, a lot of pain. And then finally when the prodigal son came home, and just the tears and the fullness of the Spirit, you know, it was, it was incredible. And then when the Word comes alive, you know, the Bible talks about knowledge puffs up, so, you know, five years into it, I'm quote, "Spurgeon and the, and the Puritans and Tulip and all these things," and I'm just, you know, I'm just ... Grudem Systematic Theology, I devoured in June, July, August one summer, and Hodge's Systematic Theology, and lectures to my students, Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones, and just like, man, I'm just, man, I'm just telling people off, and I'm just putting my you know, just like, kind of like, "Here's what you gotta do." And my mom finally came to me and she said, "Shane, nobody wants to be around you."

Sean McDowell: How old are you, by the way, at this point?

Shane Idleman: By then, I am 29.

Sean McDowell: 29.

Shane Idleman: 30.

Sean McDowell: Fired up theologically-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Truth teller.

Shane Idleman: Oh, no, but then five years later-

Sean McDowell: Like-

Shane Idleman: ... So 30 34, 35.

Sean McDowell: So you're 34. It was your mom, of all people, that came to you.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Okay, paint that picture, what happened.

Shane Idleman: Yeah, and she said, "Shane, nobody wants to be around you anymore." And I said, "Well, they're just convicted." Right? 'Cause, you know, alcoholism or this, or ... And they're just convicted. They don't like what I have to say. It's like, no, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. You're ... And so that Phariseeism had to be broken out of me, and it's a process. And many I'm sure, listening to this will need to spend some time with the Lord to get broken before him, because they're bold, but they're arrogant. And, that's, you know, that's ... You gotta have boldness, but you've gotta ... Like, Whitefield wouldn't preach without, about hell without tears in his eyes. You know, and having ... So that's what happened at that Ohio event. It was just that breaking proce- And there are other times. I shared with you, I, 2017 maybe, I had a young girl come in, 16, 17. She said, "You just made me feel so bad today. I'm struggling with same-sex attraction." And I preached, 'cause I pre- Here's the difficult. You love the person, right? And you wanna help them and share God, but you, the agenda is killing me, right? It's like the schools, it's like, how do you,

Sean McDowell: Balance that, yeah

Shane Idleman: ... How do you love the one-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: ... But call out the agenda? And so I cried with her, and I learned a valuable lesson that day. I've had, other, you know, just that breaking process where, because when you're strong and bold, you know, you you'll steamroll people if you're not careful. And so it was just a series of of God just continuing to break and break, and it's gonna be a process till the day I die.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: But, I, and so I think ... And actually, the more I broke, the more he used me. You know? So opportunities would open. God would open more doors, and, it was just, it was, it was incredible. So that's kinda my framework of where I come from.

Sean McDowell: So I wanna probe into that a little bit, and I wanna frame for people, like boldness can turn into arrogance.

Shane Idleman: Very easily.

Sean McDowell: Meekness can turn into cowardice.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So the key is how we balance the two of these without ... And maybe, again, I think because of our wiring or our experience, some of us are naturally grace givers, some of us are naturally truth tellers. And I think some of that is just wired into our DNA-

Shane Idleman: Absolutely. Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That's not gonna change. But take us, like paint that picture a little bit more. Your mom comes to you. You're about 34. How you responded-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And then kind of the steps of working through that brokenness, because there's probably a lot of people watching this-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That I do want to be challenged a little bit to maybe-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Think, "You know what? I need to do some of this similar work in my own life." And for the record, not just for them, for me too. [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: I need to keep working through this.

Shane Idleman: Well, I think I shared this in one of my books and articles and different things. Another point after this time, I think my wife did on purpose, but we I don't think we even had kids yet, just married. She left her journal open, you know, and it said, "I married a man who is, you know, har- domineering or controlling," and this. You know, I can't do much about it, but I don't want it to hap- you know, affect the kids. I'm like, "What?" I took a drive. I was so angry and upset.

Sean McDowell: Oh my goodness.

Shane Idleman: But what I was doing, I was like- ... "No, you can't start a makeup business," or, "You can't do this. We're saving money. We're saving..." So it wasn't controlling in psycho, but it was just like, "No, we're not gonna spend money doing that. We're not..." You know- ... Just kinda not respecting the wife's thoughts. The two shall become one.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Shane Idleman: And so we talked it through, and that really got me to another spot of brokenness, as well. And then I mentioned actually this Sunday that we we, our church began to visit hospital homes. Do you know what those are? They're hospitals inside neighborhoods-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shane Idleman: ... Where people will, investors will buy a house, and then they'll turn it into four bedroom, you know, and they get, they get income, and they put patients there with nurses. So our church was given, like, five of these to go and minister to, and the stuff I saw there, I would leave just crying. You know, I remember one suicide, failed suicide attempt. Half of her skull is missing. She's blind, and she's depressed and suicidal, and I'm there to minister to her. She can't see, but I'm crying, my tears on the floor, and I'm praying for her about when she was abused as a four-year-old and just... And then I go to another guy who's a paraplegic, and these things are just breaking and breaking. But God, that's how he keeps your heart tender and pliable, because you can have, you can be straight as a gun barrel theologically but just as empty. You know, dead inside, just arrogant. And we see that Bible-thumping, in-your-face, you know, certain, and just that, it's just ... You can tell those people, there's just too much arrogance. They don't, there's not enough And again, that's a, that's something I'm working on until the day I die, so don't look at me and go, "Oh, that's-"

Sean McDowell: Of course, yeah. [laughs]

Shane Idleman: "... Cool. He, that's a great example." No, I struggle with it often, you know? But so yeah, my mom's thing, my wife's journal, just other things that just God keeps breaking and breaking, and and it just gets to a point where... And now worship, you know, during worship, you know, just pray, preparing for that message you heard. Actually, what broke me there is before, they they're, they told this lady, she became a Christian because of the, Samaritan's Purse, those shoeboxes.

Sean McDowell: Oh.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's awesome.

Shane Idleman: And so she's talking about, how they were delivered to her in Iran or Iraq or something like that and became believers. Her father was actually threatened for his, like, "We're gonna kill you and your fam- " You know, like, just she only had, like, "Okay, you got five minutes. You got six minutes," right? And she And I'm next. I'm thinking, "That, that's the keynote speaker. She needed to be the keynote speaker. God help." And I went up there already- ... Already kinda just in tears because, like, we can't rush her through this. Like, this is, this is so important. This is a... And, "Oh, Pastor Shane, our guest speaker," and like those things just break you, and you have to be, you have to not think so highly of yourself, and you have to be broken before God. And, through that brokenness, you know, the more, when the more we, the more we do that, the lower we go, the more He'll elevate, too.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Shane Idleman: And of course we get into my background, dyslexia, graduate high school with a 1.8, reenie-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Shane Idleman: ... Reading and learning disabilities.

Sean McDowell: Wow.

Shane Idleman: Came from a hardworking construction family, was destined to be nothing really. And then once I committed to the, myself to the Lord, and that everything just shifted, you know?

Sean McDowell: I went to school here in '94 to '98 at Biola.

Shane Idleman: Yes.

Sean McDowell: And had a number of different friends, but one friend in particular who was, in some ways, my perception the way you're describing yourself when you were younger.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: He was, he was a truth teller. He would go out and do evangelism all the time, stood up in chapel a few times and called out a speaker and left.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And we, and let's just say we ended on not great terms.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Maybe I shouldn't say this, but he's [laughs] the only person I was inches away from just punching and trying-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... To knock him out. I was so upset. I'm not proud of that. And we, you know, we were in touch a little bit all the time but mostly lost touch. He left, went to another university, and it was shortly after the death of Charlie Kirk- ... That he sent me an email, and he apologized for the way-

Shane Idleman: Wow

Sean McDowell: ... That he acted here. And I'm not gonna pretend that I did everything right. That's not the point here.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: But I got that, and I was like, first off, I didn't expect that.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Second, it was so moving that somebody three decades later is like, "You know what? God convicted my heart."

Shane Idleman: Unbelievable. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And I just see a difference in his character, and he's coming out here soon. I'm heading to where he lives, and we're gonna, like, hang out, and it's, like, literally just like-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... I'm really looking forward to seeing him because of this, and just an example of somebody that in some ways it seems to kinda mirror your story a little bit.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: What would you say to that person? 'Cause you and I have talked about individuals. We don't need to name names at all, but when you see people maybe on social media, YouTube, pastors conferences, in conversation, wherever, and you kinda see yourself in somebody-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Who's younger and going, "You know what? I think you need to be humbled," you know, you can fill in the blank.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: What would you say to yourself 20 years ago?

Shane Idleman: [laughs] First, my mind is going to, "I wonder why he called him out. Like, is it something to call the person out about?" You know?

Sean McDowell: Well, you know what? I will actually tell you, he was right about it.

Shane Idleman: But was the timing right?

Sean McDowell: He was right about it.

Shane Idleman: Yeah, that, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Well, so that's a fair question.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: He stood up, called a guy a heretic, and this guy's completely left his faith and has become a humanist.

Shane Idleman: Wow.

Sean McDowell: So he saw stuff-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That I didn't see. So there was, you know-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... He was right about certain things. The timing, I don't know the answer to that.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But to answer your question-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... I was like, "Well, he was right on that one." [laughs]

Shane Idleman: That sounds like I mean, I would, I've thought about that before. You know, when do you call people out? And when do you not? You know, when do you But what was the question? I forgot exactly.

Sean McDowell: So the question was what you would say to your younger self.

Shane Idleman: Oh, my goodness.

Sean McDowell: Oh by the way, before you answer that, I think the line this person said was something to the effect of, "You think you'll be saved without shedding some of your own blood."

Shane Idleman: Ooh, yeah.

Sean McDowell: And he just called it out.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And in my mind, I'm, like, still at that-

Shane Idleman: What does that mean?

Sean McDowell: Now I, like, see it crystal clear.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But at that day, what does he mean? And trying to figure it out. He just called it out, and I think he was right, ... Was preaching a false gospel.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But my question for you is what would you say to yourself [laughs]

Shane Idleman: My younger self

Sean McDowell: ... Or somebody 20 years ago?

Shane Idleman: Boy. You know what? I actually write about it and preach it in sermons, so that's how I try to get it out of, out there, and I do come to younger pastors and leaders. The problem with pride is you don't see it, and you can tell people certain things. Hopefully it'll stick, but really life has got to break them. God's got to break them.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Shane Idleman: So you can say, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, God, I'll be different."

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Shane Idleman: You know, "I'm not, that's not gonna happen to me." I don't remember if you remember Steve Farrar's book, Finishing Strong.

Sean McDowell: I do remember. I read it, yeah

Shane Idleman: ... I'll never forget he interviewed, or somebody did, 280 of the top Christian men who fell- ... In ministry, and at the top of the list was, "That will never happen to me."

Sean McDowell: Wow.

Shane Idleman: "That will never happen to me."

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Pride. And see, they don't wanna ... And other people, "I don't wanna," you know? But back in the '80s, some of these big ministries that fell, like David Wilkerson went to some of these people or other people and they don't wanna hear it. They don't wanna ... So, I would, I would probably pray for the person for God to wake them up, and I would share, "Hey, you know, we're sensing some..." And usually they'll wanna be challenged, so they'll push back. "Oh, no, I'm just, I'm just convicting, you know? That's a message God gave me, and I'm just a, I'm just a straight shooter." I've heard that before. "I'm just a straight shooter," you know?

Sean McDowell: I've heard that one.

Shane Idleman: No, you're arrogant. You're arrogant. Because you can tell. You can tell when somebody's just feisty and in your ... But then you have that bold prophetic voice, too, that we see sometimes on Instagram. There's that ... He, he's actually exploding right now, that, the guy in Georgia, Black guy. Incredible. You know, I sense truth and love, in other people, but you can sense that just that arrogance, wanting likes, wanting more followers, wanting more views. And so I would try to say something to my younger self, but my younger self wouldn't listen.

Sean McDowell: You're not even sure the person would hear it. That's totally

Shane Idleman: No

Sean McDowell: ... That's a fair point.

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: I've had conversations with people who've gone both ways. I've seen people, and I, and I've said really kindly in relationship, "I think you're heading a direction-"

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... "that's gonna be destructive, and just know when you get there I love you-"

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... "and I'm here for you."

Shane Idleman: Amen. That's

Sean McDowell: And I've said to people like this, "You're arrogant, and you need to change, and you-"

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... "need to repent," and neither worked- [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... In the moment now that I think about it.

Shane Idleman: Later, yeah.

Sean McDowell: I, and I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just a matter of, like you said-

Shane Idleman: Well-

Sean McDowell: ... Following your conviction before the Lord, hope you're full of spirit, pray for that person and ...

Shane Idleman: And I should add it's not like I wouldn't say anything.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shane Idleman: I'm just not confident it's going

Sean McDowell: That's fair

Shane Idleman: ... And believe it or not, I mean, there's times, I can't tell you how many times I'll get an email a year or two later and say, "Hey, just wanna let you know you were right. Thank you for challenging me. I really thought about it." Most people aren't gonna respond well initially because it takes humility to respond well, and if they're not gonna respond well. So it's kinda like, you know, it's, they're not gonna say, "Oh, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I need to work on that." 'Cause we all need to work on something. You know? I mean, if if people, like we see in the media and social media that, all these people are accusing people, the, and they should say, "You know, I do need to work on some of that. Thank you for bringing it up," and move forward. But there's, pride won't let you do that. It's guarding. It's self-preservation. That's what pride is. That's what legalism is, it's self-preservation rules versus wisdom of following God's rules, right? You wanna, you wanna follow God's rules. You wanna, you wanna build that relationship, and I don't consider them rules. They're guardrails through the canyons of life really.

Sean McDowell: How much do you think about long-term with people? 'Cause I think about my students, and I had a student who really was in my class and became an atheist, and we had coffee a couple times. It was really good, and it was just clear to me he has made up his mind-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Not open. And I just graciously at the end I said, "You know, you went down this road without me being a part of the conversation, became an atheist, did it alone. If you ever just open the door up and are considering God again, will you shake my hand, look me in the eyes-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... And promise me that you'll at least invite me into the conversation?" Shook my hand and said, "Yes." Now, I haven't heard from him yet.

Shane Idleman: Yeah, that's perfect.

Sean McDowell: You know, he's 20-some years behind me, but I think about playing the long-term with people.

Shane Idleman: Yes.

Sean McDowell: But then the voice in the back of my mind sometimes is like, "But you know what? They could get hit by a car tonight," and maybe that's the evangelist in

Shane Idleman: True, yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That I go back to. And I don't know how to, I just don't always know how to balance that, and maybe it is like you said. We're back to just, like, before the Lord, just speak truth with a heart

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That person as best as I can, and maybe I didn't do it perfectly, but that's where grace comes

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... And I can just trust God's sovereignty in that person's life. I mean-

Shane Idleman: Well, you know what? You just made me think of something. I've not a good example of this in the past because, you know, once you say something, you

Shane Idleman: wanna, you wanna follow up a couple weeks later, a month later.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: And you keep pressing where you should-

Sean McDowell: That's true

Shane Idleman: ... Have just left it, and I actually pushed people farther away. You know, like, "What? You had me thinking, but now you're upsetting me," and like, oh, just, oh. And like with kids that are in rebellion, right? I mean, you your kids know where you stand. You just love them. You don't, you don't allow certain things under your roof, but they, you know, they need that grace. I've and I think I've seen so many kids walk away, yes, from lukewarm and carnal homes, but also from the modern-day Pharisee homes where their dad rules that home like a rod of iron, and it's rules, and they don't see the brokenness and gentleness and love and grace of Christ in you. That's ... Actually, I think it was, I think it was, your dad again. Oh, my goodness. He said, he he said one of the most common questions he gets, this is, like, 30 years ago, from young adults That he travels the country. This is one of the number one questions he gets from young adults is, how can I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ my parents have?

Sean McDowell: Oh, wow.

Shane Idleman: I remember reading that. I highlight it, and I just, how can I live... And their number one question, all the young adults, is how can I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ my parents have? I mean, that, if that doesn't bring you to tears, you know, that bro- And that's how I believe our kids are at least our kids so far are doing well, because we show them that brokenness, that humility. I could have handled that better. I and then, but we stand strong on certain things. But they see that grace. They see that. That's powerful.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Shane Idleman: Because when it breaks you, it breaks them. But that arrogance they'll push back on, that legalism.

Sean McDowell: So you're a pastor, and you're dealing with a lot of families and individuals, and you've talked about families who leave a lukewarm home, families who leave a legalistic home. In my experience, having done some writing and thinking, a lot of conversations on deconstruction and deconversion-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... It's far more those who have come from the legalistic home and are reacting against it.

Shane Idleman: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Now, it might be that those who leave a lukewarm home just end up, they're not upset about it, and they don't talk about it. [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Right, exactly.

Sean McDowell: So I don't have a number on which one is more significant statistically, but those are the stories that I hear more.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Do you hear those kinds of stories far more? And how would you counsel a parent when you know that this element is present, and their kids are questioning these kinds of, you know, they're questioning their faith. They're concerned-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... About them, but you see that legalism present in the family. So I guess it's a two-part question. Do you see more reacting in the way that I describe-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... From that fundamentalist-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Legalistic, harsh family, and how do you navigate that when it comes to you?

Shane Idleman: Well, here's a good test for your listeners. The legalist is not gonna like what you just said.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: And if you don't like what I said, it's because you need to hear what I said, basically. But let me qualify. Neither home is good.

Sean McDowell: [laughs] Okay.

Shane Idleman: Neither home.

Sean McDowell: Totally fair.

Shane Idleman: ... Taking your kids to Taylor Swift conferences, concerts and, yeah, or legally, you know, neither, one of those homes

Sean McDowell: Okay hang on. You're not necessarily lukewarm if you take your kid to a Taylor Swift concert. I don't wanna get too sidetracked here-

Shane Idleman: Right, okay

Sean McDowell: ... But like-

Shane Idleman: Edit that part out.

Sean McDowell: Okay. [laughs]

Shane Idleman: No.

Sean McDowell: No, I don't edit out, but just...

Shane Idleman: Well, my point is, at least where she's at now, or... Okay, that was a bad example. If any type of lukewarm would be, yeah, concerts that maybe aren't God-honoring, movies that aren't God-honoring, Netflix.

Sean McDowell: Okay-

Shane Idleman: But-

Sean McDowell: ... So is it fair to say these are their priority, these things matter at the expense of church and living out your faith, as opposed to, like, you can be a vibrant Christian, but engage certain things-

Shane Idleman: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... In culture wisely. Is that fair?

Shane Idleman: Right, for sure.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shane Idleman: Call it, yeah.

Sean McDowell: All right, keep going.

Shane Idleman: I leave that up, you leave that up to the individual.

Sean McDowell: So your-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Point was, when I cut you off, is that lukewarm family is not good. Neither is the legalistic family is not good.

Shane Idleman: Right, I'm not promoting-

Sean McDowell: Keep going

Shane Idleman: ... I'm not promoting, just because we're harping on the legalistic one doesn't mean, the lukewarm, carnal, whatever you wanna call that.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, totally fair.

Shane Idleman: But here's what happens in the lukewarm, carnal type homes, where they're not on fire for the Lord. It's pretty clear that they're not on fire for the Lord, so the kids are not, "Man, my mom and dad aren't living it." They know they're not living it. You know, you're not really sending a mixed signal, other unless you're trying to live it out, and you're being false and fake and a hypocrite. You know, that's what a hypocrite was, right? They'd show up the mask, and one thing on Sunday, somebody else on Monday. But kids with carnality and lukewarmness, it's dangerous, but, you know, they see it in, they see it in themselves and their parents. But with legalism, and what we call, you know, I don't know what term you used, fundamentalist?

Sean McDowell: I might have, yeah.

Shane Idleman: I mean, that term comes from 1904, 1905-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: ... When R.A. Torrey wrote his Fundamentals of the Faith. So it's okay term, but when it's-

Sean McDowell: Who taught here, by the way.

Shane Idleman: Did he?

Sean McDowell: We have a Torrey conference.

Shane Idleman: Wow.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, he was a Biola-n.

Shane Idleman: That

Sean McDowell: Absolutely

Shane Idleman: ... That's pretty cool.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shane Idleman: So that word isn't neutral. The problem is, when it's, And I've just seen it. I mean, the kids, it's not only do they totally rebel, it's just, they're just hurt.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Shane Idleman: And they're, the deconstructionism for people, I'm sure people know who follow your channel, but it's deconstructing their faith, right? Working it back the opposite way.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Shane Idleman: Well, maybe if this... And the worst thing you can do is show God's truth without His love. Principles to follow without the grace that you need to get back up and keep fighting. So that's what it does. It actually, a legalistic home sets a standard that nobody can hit. But you're acting like you're hitting it, 'cause you're the, you know, "Not in my, we don't go to the movies. You know, we don't do this. We have a certain translation of the Bible we use, and women have to wear dresses and head coverings." And oh, get into the whole... Which is fine if you want, but it's the attitude behind it. See, it's not necessarily the rules. It's the attitude behind it. And the kids-

Sean McDowell: Hm

Shane Idleman: ... It pushes them away because I need grace. I can't measure up all these rules, and locked up in your room for half a day, and, you know, this, and you're, it's, you're, you just, there's no, there's no, breathing room to grow in your faith. Because faith is following God's law, following his his commandments, but also having the grace and the mercy to get back up and to keep fighting, and to have people in your corner, "Hey, you can keep doing this. This is not allowed. You cannot come home at midnight again." But, you know, we're, and you, and you know, you have the grace with the truth.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Shane Idleman: And so that's what, legalistic homes just don't provide the the

Shane Idleman: incubator of genuine faith.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Shane Idleman: Because they constantly feel they will never measure up. They're never good enough. They can never please Mom, never please Dad, and they just, they just live like that.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Shane Idleman: And it's kinda sad.

Sean McDowell: So I'm gonna ask you a somewhat difficult question. Maybe it won't be hard for you. But I know you can take it.

Shane Idleman: Yes, I can take it.

Sean McDowell: This is probably 15 years ago. And it's not, like, a theological question or apologetic question. It's a scenario Because I get emails daily from people, like parents and families, "How do I navigate this with my kid?"

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: "How do I navigate this in the church?" And it's always like, "I want them to have truth, but I value the relationship."

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: "Where do I draw the line?" And so I'm just curious how you play this one out. Again, probably 15, maybe 20 years ago when there was so much conversation about same-sex marriage, a pastor shared with me that at his church, they were having... I'm trying to remember some of the details. They were having kind of a a marriage day or kind of retreat celebration, and they had couples stand who had been married the longest. And the last couple standing was a same-sex couple. Now they... And they were gonna get some kind of award from the church and recognition for this in front of the church. Now they obviously hadn't been legally married, 'cause this just goes back-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... To 2015, but that's the kind of situation, I sit there, I'm like, "Oh, man, if I'm sitting in that situation, I wanna speak truth, but I also don't wanna shame this couple in a way that's unnecessary."

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: To me, in my mind, that is almost so often, like, highlighted this tension between how do you just show grace and kindness to people, and how do you balance truth? What goes through your mind as a pastor if you're sitting there and this unexpected couple stands when you're trying to celebrate God's design for marriage? And if you're like, "I need to think about this," 'cause I've been thinking about it for like-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... 15 years, [laughs] I'm totally fine with that.

Shane Idleman: Well, no. I mean, it's... I think I can answer it pretty quickly-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shane Idleman: ... Because what I do is anytime we measure grace or truth, right? I look at what is the greater harm. So my silence- ... Is gonna be more harm to my congregation. So yes, I might have so I'd probably say, "Hey, guys, let's talk about this one after church." You know? But also, I don't know if they would be,

Shane Idleman: All are welcome, right, at church, but we don't affirm. So because of my preaching and preaching of they probably for a, for a openly same-sex couple to be coming to church, maybe they're new, brand new. I don't know. Could be. But if, it... They're probably not gonna come and stay in sin, if that makes sense. Because it's just the convicting of the message. We're not targeting them, but just the conviction of God's Word. So for me, I would, because of the congregation, my role as a leader, my kids might be there, my wife, I'd probably say, "Okay, guys, and let's talk about that later. I'm gonna do a sermon at some point on God's design for marriage, but I'm looking for those who've been married according to God's design." So yes, it might shame them, but they actually created this environment. I didn't create it. I'm responding to it. So to me, that silence would have spoke volumes, and it would have actually done more damage to my testimony and to the members of my church- ... If that makes sense

Sean McDowell: ... I love that. I think that's-

Shane Idleman: So

Sean McDowell: ... Really wise. And you emailed me something about how sometimes silence can actually cause harm.

Shane Idleman: Phew.

Sean McDowell: And this is an example

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Doing so. So it sounds to me like when it came to the pronoun issue earlier, if somebody's like, "Call me he/him," you don't feel the need-

Shane Idleman: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... To go out of your way and correct that person immediately, but I'm not gonna go along with this.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: And I'm gonna look-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... For the more opportune time to address that-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Wisely. In this circumstance, I'm not gonna go out of my way to shame this couple, but this is public.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I've already preached on where our church stands. I'm gonna shift to the right one, move on, and then follow up with that couple-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... As lovingly-

Shane Idleman: Exactly

Sean McDowell: ... And graciously as I can.

Shane Idleman: Yeah. So for me, I weigh what is the, what's the greater damage.

Sean McDowell: That's smart.

Shane Idleman: You know? And then, you know, pro- now it depends on the person, though. If I'm at Starbucks and I've got my 16-year-old and my 18-year-old and I've got somebody saying like, you know, so my daughter, "No, I'm he/him," I'm, I would say, "Hey we're not lying here. You're not a he/him." It's a linguistically pronoun. Like, I don't understand this whole thing because it's, to me, it's lying. It's not being honest. However, it depends on the situation. Most of the time, I'm just like, "Okay, thanks, Chris. Nice to meet you." But if it's gonna be a constant thing and depending what the, what the environment is, where it's at, I mean, if it's at church, I'm in the prayer room, you know, and-

Sean McDowell: That's a very different setting

Shane Idleman: ... It, you know-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: ... And I say, "Hey, what's your name? Chris, can I pray with you?" "No, it's, he, it's he/him." I say, "Oh, no Uh-uh. I'm, I love you and, but let's talk about he/him. We're..." And I'd use that as an opportunity, but I'm not gonna call them. I'm not gonna honor what I think is dishonoring, to God. You know, again, with weighing the silence speaks volumes. And that's why I think many, what I consider, I don't know if you wanna use the term that's been used the wrong way sometimes, woke or liberal or progressive, and I have friends and, that consider, you know, they're more kind of that leaning, but they're, it's almost an arrogance in their silence. And I talked to them, "Why don't you ever..." "Oh, no, I don't mention sin much because that's God's job to convict." I'm like, "No, it's really yours from the pulpit, too. You're a watchman. You're a preacher of God's truth. It's not... He, ... He's gonna have you as well convict them." And so there's this thought that it's not my job to convict. It's my job to love. No, it's actually your job to do both. That's why Paul said, "Be ready in and out season. The time will come when they're not gonna put up with sound doctrine. You know, exhort, encourage, long-suffering, gent-" I mean, so we have, we have the scriptural mandate to preach all of God's... And I think the most powerful preaching of God's Word comes from the truth being preached in love. If you, if you go any side, if you're just, if you're all truth, and I'm gonna... If you're, if you're a, if you're gay in here, if you're, you know, in here, and you're just beating the pulpit, and you're just putting down people, it's not gonna, it's just, you just hurt a lot of people. But if you're like, "You know what? I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go there. I'm not gonna..." I mean, just look at all the political hot buttons or whatever you wanna call them. They're [laughs] biblical. They're biblical hot buttons. And so if I'm just gonna remain silent, it's really because I've struggled with this. It's cowardliness, isn't it? I don't wanna deal with this. I don't wanna upset anybody. It's cowardliness, and that's why I said earlier the more time I spend with God, the bolder I become.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so hold that. I wanna, I wanna explore that, but your point about this fear I think is really wise and helpful. I wanna make sure we don't miss this. I was just ... I teach a class here at Biola called Gospel Kingdom Culture, and it's apologetics, evangelism, spiritual conversations, and the thorniest cultural issues-

Shane Idleman: Oh

Sean McDowell: ... People can talk about.

Shane Idleman: Ooh.

Sean McDowell: So we talk about race, we talk about transgender, we talk about poverty, we talk about artificial intelligence.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And the board down, like, directed it for Thaddeus Williams and I to write this course, and we were just talking about pronouns this week. And I said, "Before we just answer this, maybe there's a difference between a Christian and a non-Christian, an adult and a child."

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: There's so many different settings that are taking place here, and you're right. Like in Starbucks when somebody's dropping off your coffee really fast and it's like abrupt versus-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Somebody who's in the church asking-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... For prayer.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Even that nuance is ... Makes a big difference when and how we speak truth. So I just want, I wanna make sure 'cause I wanna ruminate on that even more-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Myself. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. Let's go back to scripture.

Shane Idleman: Well, the wisdom came from a lot of failures too, so that's where [laughs] you know-

Sean McDowell: Well, most wisdom does-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Doesn't it?

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I think most wisdom does. I think that's right. And the wise people learn from other people's failures.

Shane Idleman: Yes, true.

Sean McDowell: That's for sure. So we're talking about scripture making us more bold. Now, I have my thoughts about this, but I wanna hear from you first what you mean by that and how that works.

Shane Idleman: The bolder I become?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shane Idleman: Well, because I think by nature, and what I mean by nature is, you know, if you jump in a river, you're just gonna go with the flow. You're not gonna ... So by nature, most people are not confrontational. Right? I just, man, I wanna give a good sermon. I want people to like me. [laughs] I want 'em to come back-

Sean McDowell: I think you're right

Shane Idleman: ... Next Sunday, you know? And, sadly, a lot of, a lot of pastors, I've got pastor friends that are subject to deacon boards, and if they start really speaking the truth, they're gonna lose-

Sean McDowell: Oh

Shane Idleman: ... Some of their audience and the financial budgets. And so what I mean-

Sean McDowell: That's hard

Shane Idleman: ... By that is those things are just put aside. It's like the more time I spend in God's Word, the bolder I become for cultural issues-

Sean McDowell: And by the way, this isn't just for-

Shane Idleman: ... For truth issues

Sean McDowell: ... Pastors-

Shane Idleman: No, it's anybody

Sean McDowell: ... Who are behind a pulpit like you are.

Shane Idleman: Anybody. Right.

Sean McDowell: I wanna make sure we're connecting everybody, but keep going how it relates to you.

Shane Idleman: Yeah, and so these things that are, that are human nature, whatever you wanna call them, wired by default to be quiet, cowardly, timid, you know, that's kind of our ... Most people wanna be liked by people, right? Jesus said, "Woe be to you when all men speak well of you," or, "If you're trying to please men, you won't be a pleaser of God." And so when it comes to what we're talking about, speaking the truth in love, cultural issues, the more time I spend with God, the the bolder I become on these issues that most of us are inclined to be silent about. If that makes sense.

Sean McDowell: It does.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So I think it is two reasons for me. The more I study scripture, the more I'm confident about what scripture says.

Shane Idleman: Yes. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And so I have a certain confidence of like, "You know what? I can take criticism from people-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... If I know that I'm standing on a position that is the most reasonable, likely biblical position." It just gives me confidence to say-

Shane Idleman: Exactly

Sean McDowell: ... "Fine, I've got the Lord at my back, and I've thought about this."

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: So personally, I find that that happens a lot the more I study an issue and have conviction about it and get into the scriptures. But the second is I just see over and over again in the scriptures how much it says to be bold.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So I've been studying Deuteronomy over and over again in the morning, and it's like a drumbeat in that book. Now, of course, there, this is Moses' [laughs] final speech before they enter the Promised Land.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So he's gotta tell 'em, "Be bold. Do not be afraid." I should do a quick search how many times, but it's probably dozens of times.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So I read that, and I'm like, "Wow, be bold. Be bold. Don't be afraid. Speak truth." And so just being in scripture reminds me of that. The other thing that jumped out is I was, before Deuteronomy, I was studying Luke, and when Luke stan- I'm sorry, when Jesus stands up in the gospel Luke and reads from Isaiah 61, I believe it is, and he's like, "These things have been fulfilled in your presence."

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: It says twice about how everybody was praising him and everybody loved him, but by the end of that chapter, they wanna throw him off a cliff-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... At Nazareth. I'm like, "Wow, they shifted from loving him-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And caring for him to wanting to throw him off the cliff?"

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I've signed up to follow this guy.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: What audience am I playing for? Am I playing for being pleased by men?

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: If so, my life is like a rollercoaster. I'm at the whims of what people think about me.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: But if I'm trying to please God and be on his side, it's actually freeing for me and gives me more boldness just by being in scripture in that fashion.

Shane Idleman: That's true.

Sean McDowell: That's more my experience with it.

Shane Idleman: Well, and you'll read, 'cause people have a misconception of Jesus, right? Turn the other cheek, this nice guy, but man, "You brood of vipers." You know, can you imagine looking at religious leaders and saying, "You're you look great on the outside," like, "whitewashed tombs, but you're dead on the inside. Woe be to you. Well did Isaiah speak of you. You draw nigh unto me with your lips, but your heart ..." And he just, I mean, he was bold when he need to be bold, and, that's the hard part, is find- ... Because also what happens is I call it reaction, and, you know, somebody's doing something, I wanna react. And it, that's arrogance, right? 'Cause you're guarding, or you're defending, and, "Oh, yeah? Well, let me tell you this," and you wanna text back. And so it's that, it's that time of not reacting but responding. ... And waiting on God. And for most, some people, they know they just need to just put on the brakes. For other people, they need to step on the gas and start being a little bit more bold, you know? And that's one of the things we talked about earlier with the pulpits in America, you know, how much that has ... From years ago.

Sean McDowell: Now, hold that. We might come back to the pulpit, but what, so why wouldn't we be bold? And the opposite of boldness either could be cowardice

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Or fear, right?

Shane Idleman: You don't wanna deal with it right now. I mean-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: ... Right? Like, "I don't wanna say anything. I don't wanna deal with... You know, let me just-"

Sean McDowell: It's easier-

Shane Idleman: It's easier

Sean McDowell: ... To do so.

Shane Idleman: For sure.

Sean McDowell: I also think, like, fear, I ask myself a lot, how much am I motivated by fear in my life? And it's

Shane Idleman: True

Sean McDowell: ... Easy to succumb to that.

Shane Idleman: Absolutely.

Sean McDowell: Which prevents somebody from being bold because it could be fear for reputation, fear for a job, fear-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... For whatever the kind of issue is. But the biblical solution to fear is in 1 John 4:18, "Perfect love-"

Shane Idleman: Love casts out

Sean McDowell: ... Casts out fear. And when I think about this, you know, one of the leading... Just yesterday I was talking to my students here at Biola about this. One of the leading fears, it's, like, death, and then it's, like, public speaking. [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Yeah, that's true.

Sean McDowell: Which is, it's like always top three or top-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Five.

Shane Idleman: I hated it when-

Sean McDowell: And it's like, why? Because so many people are looking-

Shane Idleman: It's opinions

Sean McDowell: ... At me.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And I don't wanna be embarrassed or shamed-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... In front of people. So that's where fear comes from.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Fear is selfish. Love is selfless.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Fear is self-focused. Love

Shane Idleman: Other focused

Sean McDowell: ... Other focused.

Shane Idleman: Yeah, so good.

Sean McDowell: So in some ways, when I look at the church today, when we get overly defensive and we're overly angry, I sometimes think we're acting out of fear.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And some of those concerns are not illegitimate, whatever those concerns may be, but our reaction is looking at ourselves rather than asking, what's the loving response to somebody else? So I've had different people call me out in different ways.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And I always think, you know what? You're thinking about yourself rather than if I really wanna persuade Sean-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... To change, or anybody to change, this isn't about me, how do I speak in a way that this is best received? And so, like I was a comm major here, and communication, very simply put, it would be, like, a sender, and it would be a message, and it would be a receiver.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: And the message is the communication. Well, most people have their idea and the message they wanna send, this is the truth I wanna convey. But they're not thinking about the receiver-

Shane Idleman: Is gonna receive it

Sean McDowell: ... And whether or not the receiver will at least hear them.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And the question is, what makes somebody more likely to hear them? Sometimes it's somebody getting in their face [laughs] and-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm, true

Sean McDowell: ... Yelling at them.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And cra- like, sometimes that's the time, but that seems to me to be more the exception of the time, and there's often more of a relationship behind that-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... That makes it happen. I try, ask myself, if I have something I think is true and I want somebody to hear it, how do I speak it ... Love? Because, A, that's actually loving somebody. Whether they respond or not, I'm called to love somebody. But, B, it sure seems walls come down, and they're more likely to hear it if I speak the truth- ... In love. So I just, I mean, I look at the Church, I look at pastors today, I look at myself, and I ask myself, how much am I speaking out of fear- ... Which is selfish-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Versus saying, am I speaking out of love? And that's why, I mean, last point in this, I'm rambling a little bit, but when people get nervous for speaking, part of my response is stop thinking about yourself.

Shane Idleman: Yeah, that's what it is.

Sean McDowell: Just ask yourself, how can I love my audience?

Shane Idleman: Yeah, 'cause we're worried about opinions.

Sean McDowell: 'Cause we're worried about opinions.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And I go, well, how can I tell stories that help them? How can I make

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... PowerPoint that helps them? How can I actually help them? Then the focus shifts from me to others.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And I think if we Christians would just stop focusing on ourselves and our fear inwardly and just say, how will people-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Most likely hear the truth-

Shane Idleman: How I'm coming across

Sean McDowell: ... Of Christ-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... I think we'd communicate very-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Differently.

Shane Idleman: And this one might be helpful. That was a great point, and it made me think of this. For your listeners, you know, you'll have probably have pastors listening, lay leaders, Christians, supporters.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shane Idleman: How I, how I preach to a mass audience or whatever is a lot different than how I talk to an individual.

Sean McDowell: Amen to that.

Shane Idleman: So there's different dynamics. People, I just need to be like, "Sh... No I'm... Don't be like I'm preaching. Don't talk to an individual that way." When it's a mass, you have the advantage of not knowing what God's doing in their hearts, and people don't take it personally because there's a group of people. But when I'm talking to an individual, it's gonna be obviously a little bit different. However, like you said earlier, there are times to really shoot people straight- ... When they're destroying their family, when they need to wake up. There's other times where you need to come alongside and just listen to them, speak the truth in love. But also, you know, yeah, I would say erring on the side of grace, but also when I was younger, I did a, I really was into, just, I just love, like, football coaches. Like good teams, you know, Cowboys, I think it was Tom Laundry or Laundry, right? Or, and,

Sean McDowell: Great coach

Shane Idleman: ... And, Green Bay was, Vince Lombardi. And just studying all these guys, I think I did it, I don't know why I did, actually, but I realize all these great coaches weren't too nice all the time.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: Were they? The, I mean, most-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: ... Most good coaches, basketball down here, USC or UCLA, basketball coaches, even football, you know, the they pull out of you what's inside of you. So they're willing ... They're not like, "Hey, no problem." They're like, "Get back up. You don't do that." And so there is a different dynamic that takes place there. So again, as a pastor, what type of pastor, the calling that maybe I have or others have, it's that coach to really challenge them and to really have them dig deep. I also like Navy SEAL podcasts.

Sean McDowell: Oh, got it.

Shane Idleman: ... Watching those guys.

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shane Idleman: You know, it's not, it's just how I'm bent. And so my point was there's not a one-size-fits-all approach. It really depends on who the person is, your relationship with them. What is God wanting you to say? Going back to what I said earlier, the most important takeaway here, even to a carnal home, a lukewarm home, a legalistic home, is to get time with the Lord. Spend time with him. Open his word, praying, fasting, broken by him 'cause the problem that many people are having, because the fruit of the Spirit is not present, is because they're not filled with the Spirit. So the more filled you are, the more fruit's gonna come out. That's just a, that's a biblical truth. Right? The love, the joy, the peace, the contentment, but also the boldness. That's all gonna come out from the, from the fullness of the Spirit, and we're all leaky vessels, as D.L. Moody said.

Sean McDowell: That's for sure.

Shane Idleman: So we have to stay underneath the fountain of living water every day, and that's ... I hate to keep saying that, but that's where all of this ... Or should I say this to this person? When should I talk the truth in love? What, should I confront that? When you're, when the intimacy with the Lord in that relationship is going to, going to navigate these waters much more effectively.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so I wanna kinda end with this point. I think this is really helpful, that you've identified kind of your lane, and you're drawn towards coach, football. You're drawn towards Navy SEALs-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Which just fits your competitive nature-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Your A personality, your drive. But you also recognize that there's a lot of people that go, "You know what? I'm not the pastor coach. Maybe I'm the pastor counselor."

Shane Idleman: Exactly.

Sean McDowell: "Maybe I'm the pastor philosopher. Maybe I'm the pastor businessman." Your message to, I guess two-part question. A, how do you balance out not just listening to the voices, like I would imagine SEAL and football coaches would make you go, "Yeah, Shane, be tough."

Shane Idleman: Right right.

Sean McDowell: "Yeah, Shane, speak truth." It's like, wait a minute, I'm filling myself with the voices I'm naturally inclined towards. I don't wanna do that too much. And then what would you say to other pastors who are like, "Yeah, I don't wanna listen to SEALs. I don't wanna play football."

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: "That's not me, but I wanna be a good pastor."

Shane Idleman: Yeah, I mean, that's, it goes back to your DNA, your wiring, how God has called you. And I don't listen to those all the time.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: It's, I balance it off.

Sean McDowell: You do? Okay.

Shane Idleman: Balance it out. Oh, for sure.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shane Idleman: I like, you know, I like the, I don't, well, I don't know what a good example would be, but softer podcasts, right? Just learning, growing in your faith, and things like that. Plus that time with the Lord. I've been getting up for 25 years really early, you know, 3:00, 3:30 in the morning.

Sean McDowell: Wow, that is early.

Shane Idleman: And, so I've got three hours,

Shane Idleman: from here on out usually, you know, that I'll spend, worship, in the word, prayer. It's dark out. Nobody's up, and that's the time to really get refueled and and reinspired and back into into God's word. And so also though, I remember you said counseling. Some of my pastor friends, like they love counseling, and they don't like preaching or sermon prep. It's like, oh, that's the hardest thing for me. I love sermon prep and preaching. It's like that what, that's what fills me up. So you have to find out what fills up that tank and what drains you. I think I got that from a book, Leading on Empty.

Sean McDowell: Oh, nice.

Shane Idleman: It's about, when pastors get burned out. And it said, "Find what fills you up, and find what drains you and try to minimize, you know, what drains you and focus on what fills you up."

Sean McDowell: Makes sense.

Shane Idleman: So trying to find, you know, exercise of course. I mean, just I think the physical, how we take care of our body affects the spiritual, right? If I'm not disciplined physically-

Sean McDowell: Amen. Amen

Shane Idleman: ... If I'm not disciplined physically, I'm not gonna be disciplined spiritually. So I think finding that balance of taking care of my body physically, especially as I get older, and then, you know, balancing out what you listen to, the podcasts, who influences you. Be very careful on social media nowadays. You know that.

Sean McDowell: Oh, man.

Shane Idleman: I mean, some people are, and they get caught up in all these conspiracy theories and yeah, and this, and they just get, they just get lost.

Sean McDowell: Maybe just the drama of it and the time of it.

Shane Idleman: The dra- yeah, I we were not designed to be hit with all this information-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Shane Idleman: ... I don't think.

Sean McDowell: And I think that your point about, you know, being filled up when you're empty, I only have so much emotional capacity.

Shane Idleman: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: And when I spend it getting ticked on Twitter, I have less-

Shane Idleman: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... For my wife and less for my son.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And it's just, I've learned that, like you said, the older that I get. So let's kind of, let's bring this back in.

Shane Idleman: Let me add this too.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, do.

Shane Idleman: For, I wanted to say it earlier, but one of the biggest things that has really helped me ... Now let me clarify it, 'cause people are gonna take it wrong, say, "You're not open for feedback. You're not teachable." But I don't really look at, I don't do comments, and I don't look at YouTube comments or Facebook. I don't, I mean, maybe 1%, but I have elders and deacons and a core group around me of a lot of people- ... That will speak into my life. And so I don't know if this person's, is in Iowa in the basement of their mom, trying to, you know, go off on me 'cause they don't agree with some non-essential or this or my attitude, or, "You're prideful." How do, how do you know who I am? So I think we we put too much into comments and, likes and followers. You know, we get up, we have to look at Instagram. Do I have followers? And even that can affect, that's what's affecting our teenagers right now in our country, is this people pleasing and bullying.

Sean McDowell: For sure.

Shane Idleman: Get off social media. It doesn't matter what they say. They don't know you well. Just surround yourself by those people who truly know you and love you. I won't listen to constructive criticism either much from critical hearts.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Shane Idleman: I wanna make sure it's somebody who truly loves me, 'cause there's enough criticism coming in from those who-

Sean McDowell: Oh, man

Shane Idleman: ... You know, truly-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shane Idleman: ... "Hey, in that sermon, I've, man, that sermon, you kinda, you know, you really, you know, overstepped." You know, and so the elders will speak truth into my life as well. So we do have those people, but I think just-

Sean McDowell: That's good

Shane Idleman: ... That social media constantly feeding that, you know, On Mondays I turn it off, and it's like I'm looking in my pocket like four or five times-

Sean McDowell: And it just, it, then you realize how, like-

Shane Idleman: Oh

Sean McDowell: ... Wired our brains are to this

Shane Idleman: ... I can't wait for those days off.

Sean McDowell: So I I read, I try to read enough criticism to just say, do I need to pivot? It's just something I need to learn-

Shane Idleman: True, yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Without spending too much time and energy on it. But I can think of a handful of YouTube videos, some Twitter posts, emails I've gotten that are a little bit more substantive, and I've always, in every case when I feel like there might be something here-

Shane Idleman: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... I have a board. I'll send it to people on my board.

Shane Idleman: That's the key.

Sean McDowell: I've sent it to my son, professors here at Talbot, and just go, "I've said a couple times, I don't actually have the emotional [laughs] energy to watch all of this right now. I'm exhausted. But I'm gonna watch it. I want you to tell me if there's anything I really need to learn from-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... On this, and speak truth to me." And some helpful conversations have come out of that. Well, maybe let's just kinda sum up some of the key points from this conversation. I wish I had taken notes, 'cause there's some-

Shane Idleman: I know, me too

Sean McDowell: ... Principles here I wanna remember.

Shane Idleman: See if I

Sean McDowell: I'm gonna go back through these

Shane Idleman: ... See if I missed anything.

Sean McDowell: But it seem- so some takeaways are, number one, our boldness and our energy is gonna come from being in the Word.

Shane Idleman: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Truth and grace aside, be in the Word, be filled with the Spirit.

Shane Idleman: Yes.

Sean McDowell: It's okay to find our own unique wirings, whether it's John the Baptist, John the Beloved, and God has called us uniquely. We should be comfortable in terms of who God has called us to be.

Shane Idleman: Steward that anointing.

Sean McDowell: Steward that is a good way to put it.

Shane Idleman: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But open to always growing and being challenged.

Shane Idleman: Yes.

Sean McDowell: What are some of the other key takeaways, from this convo? Did I miss any?

Shane Idleman: Well, I think the word, well, the word nice, like I remember I looked it up. It's, it means pleasant and agreeable, and it's not always biblical. So, you know, I wanna be nice. Okay, that means, I guess you'd be, it would depend on how you define it, right? But you're not always gonna be pleasant and agreeable if you have to lovingly challenge someone. I mean, so I think the idea is to err on the side of grace and to be bold when God calls you to be bold. And I think most people know we know what we need to work on, right? Like I I don't need to work on being silent. Like, I mean, that's not my, that's not my weakness. I need to work on not getting the last word in and being lovingly- ... More gentle and just ... 'Cause you, pastors also preach with their emotions, you know?

Sean McDowell: For sure.

Shane Idleman: I always say, I do not preach a 60-minute perfect sermon, I guarantee. My emotion is in there. My motives are in there. My perspective sometimes, even though we stick with truth, all the principles, you know, you, ... And many times I look back and go, "Why did I go off on somebody?" Like, not a name necessarily, but just, like, critics or ... And just realizing that, working on those areas you know you need to work on. So some listening are quiet. They're silent. They don't wanna say anything. They don't wanna upset. Maybe God's calling them to to be a little bit more bold, maybe sharing scripture, lovingly challenging. For others of us, it's this could be a great call to repentance. To say, "God, my heart has grown cal- hard and callous. I've ..." Look at what Jesus said. You have sound doctrine in the, to the church, and you help people in this, but you've left your first love. I mean, that was the model church right there. And then but they left their first love. And so I think it would be a good, a good call to, remind people to repentance. Don't just get ... If something is triggering you in this interview, it's probably because you need to hear it.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: I mean, that's how it works.

Sean McDowell: That's good.

Shane Idleman: You know, I don't like they said that.

Sean McDowell: That's good.

Shane Idleman: I don't wish, I wish, or I wish Sean would be more bold. Well, it's probably 'cause you need to work on being more loving. Or, I wish Shane would ... Or, it's probably 'cause you need to be ... You don't, you know, the people, when they get ... It's like when you throw a rock into a pile of dogs, you know, the one, the one that barks is the one you hit.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: And so these types of podcasts will cause people to really think, and I would just encourage them to repent and get their heart right with the Lord.

Sean McDowell: This is really good. This is one I'm gonna go back through and pull out some of the principles and just think about a lot. And I think you're landing on a point that I believe that we're gonna be living in this tension of grace and truth, relationally with people in our family.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: This is true with people where we work, true with people in our church and beyond. And if we're not living in that tension a little bit-

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Then we're stale and we're not growing, whether it's more truth or whether it's more grace. But that's the formula.

Shane Idleman: And let me add-

Sean McDowell: Please

Shane Idleman: ... Before I forget, it's so important to be apologetic and keep relationships healthy. Like Sunday for example, a guy, I was 12 minutes, I had 12 minutes before the service, and I'm running late to church, right? And he comes in. I was kinda like, "Oh," like ... And so I went to him. I said, "Hey, sorry about that. I was 12 minutes." "Oh, no problem." And so you're constantly repenting and repairing. And like, "Hey, I came across strong." And I've apologized to my I said, "Hey, last month, I mean, I came across really strong. I was upset at some things." And that transparency, that meekness, that that, ... 'Cause meekness is not weakness.

Sean McDowell: Amen. I agree 100%.

Shane Idleman: Weak- meekness is strength under control.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Shane Idleman: You have the strength, but you're controlling it. That's meekness. Weakness is the complete opposite. So apologizing to people, I just apologized to my my son a couple days ago because I was on him about, "Hey, you need to start coming to church more. Why you ..." And he, and you know, and it's, "Okay, I can see that. I understand." But always, but not always trying to be the right one. You know, you're always the right one. You're always, you never, you don't wanna listen to them. You don't wanna hear them. Having the attitude of of repentance and humility and say, "Okay, I could own that. I, we need to work on that. Let's, you know, I apologize for that," that keeps, that keeps you very tender. And you'll become more careful what you say because you know-

Sean McDowell: [laughs] It's not fun to have to apologize

Shane Idleman: ... Yeah, no, not at all, not at all.

Sean McDowell: In some ways this brings us full circle that we need to speak truth more boldly than ever because it's the truth that sets people free.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: But my first question was tied to the death of Charlie Kirk, what we need.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: And in some ways, I just, I can't shake it what Erika Kirk said, offering forgiveness within days, what is 11 days, to the man who murdered her husband, father of her kids That's supernatural in my book

Shane Idleman: It's, it was amazing

Sean McDowell: And there's a whole lot of people that shocked them and were like, some people were offended by it.

Shane Idleman: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Well, okay, at least you saw the power of the gospel-

Shane Idleman: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Of what that looks like.

Shane Idleman: Right.

Sean McDowell: You saw it demonstrated clearly. So it's not either/or. I think we need to be more gracious and more kind, not nice, but kind-

Shane Idleman: Right. Exactly

Sean McDowell: ... And meek than ever, speaking truth boldly. And may everybody who's watched this be challenged in one fashion or another, 'cause I think that's what Christ- ... Wants us to do.

Shane Idleman: You know, and just to maybe on that point for a minute, getting the full story on something. Like many of us, I've done this before, I just comment on what I think I know and you learn later. So even with Charlie Kirk, a lot of people that had issues didn't really understand what he said in context. They would hear just little snippets of things.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shane Idleman: So they built an opinion, and now you see, you know, that whole thing's being attacked right now from conspiracy theorists and all this thing that breaks my heart. It's like-

Sean McDowell: All over the place

Shane Idleman: ... Unbelievable. And those people are not, most of the people, there's no humility. You're not gonna see humility in a lot of what they're saying and doing. It's all about likes and followers and get in and it's, it... I don't know if, you know, but it can be demonic to some degree because the the-

Sean McDowell: I agree

Shane Idleman: ... The enemy is planting those fiery darts, and it's feeding ego. That's what he does, it feeds ego. Pride cometh before a fall. And so, you're not seeing a lot of humility, and that's what's happening. It's sad, really.

Sean McDowell: Well, appreciate you coming on to talk-

Shane Idleman: Amen

Sean McDowell: ... About this. This is a great conversation.

Shane Idleman: It was. It was.

Sean McDowell: Time flew. We'll definitely do it again.

Shane Idleman: And think biblically.

Sean McDowell: [laughs] Hey, let me say this.

Shane Idleman: That's a good-

Sean McDowell: How can people follow-

Shane Idleman: Oh

Sean McDowell: ... If they wanna listen to your sermons, follow your writings?

Shane Idleman: Yeah, I actually, all of my books are available as free downloads-

Sean McDowell: Nice

Shane Idleman: ... At the church website, yeah, westsidechristianfellowship.org All, I think there's 13 books there. I just wrote one. I was on Jack Hibbs' podcast about quitting. I almost quit the ministry.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shane Idleman: So I worked through that discouragement, fear, and things like that, but mainly they're westsidechristianfellowship.org or Shane Idleman, you know, on Instagram-

Sean McDowell: Spell that for everybody

Shane Idleman: ... And X. Shane, S-H-A-N-E.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shane Idleman: And then, I was named after Alan Ladd, who was in the movie Shane. My parents saw me when I was younger. And then Idleman, I-D-L-E-M-A-N, Shane Idleman. But yeah, would love to hear from people. I'll read these comments from, Sean's feedback.

Sean McDowell: You have committed yourself to that.

Shane Idleman: Yeah. I mean, I, once in a while, but you can't live off-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Shane Idleman: ... Those things because you're you know, you're-

Sean McDowell: No, I get it. I get it

Shane Idleman: ... You're too bold, you're too quiet. You're too political, you're not political enough. It's like you're tossed to and fro by the opinions of people. So just being careful who influences you.

Sean McDowell: Yeah. Good word. Enjoy the conversation. Thanks, brother.

Shane Idleman: Great job. Thank you. [outro music]