BONUS: A Jewish Thinker Challenges Christianity–Sean Responds

Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] Hey, friends. Welcome to a special episode of Think Biblically podcast. My friend, Shabbos Kestenbaum, who's an Orthodox Jew, came in studio to have a conversation with me really about theological and biblical differences about who is the Messiah. Did Jesus fulfill the criteria or not? We also talked about some of the growing anti-Semitism that many Orthodox Jews are experiencing in America, and how we can best respond. This conversation is a little bit longer than normal, but it was a lot of fun, and we got into some serious theological differences, but I think with a great spirit. So check it out. Let us know what you think. If you enjoy it, we hope you'll consider sharing it with a friend. Shabbos Kestenbaum, that is as Jewish of a name-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... As I've heard in a long time.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes. As I was saying, I'm a... My name is a gift to the anti-Semites.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: They just look at my name, and they don't even have to make the joke. It's written for them.

Sean McDowell: So you're Jewish by name and by practice.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes.

Sean McDowell: So I wanna make a statement, and I just want your reaction. Take this anywhere you wanna take it. Jesus is the most famous and influential Jew who has ever walked the earth.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, for sure. And that's one of the reasons I get upset with the anti-Semites when they say, "Well, what did Jews ever do for us?" I'm like, "Well, you worship one."

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: "So let's start with that." Absolutely. And I am not one of those Jews, especially in the Orthodox community, who denounce His own existence. I very much concede- ... The point that Jesus very much existed on planet Earth. He walked on the earth, maybe not walked on the water, but

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... He was a practicing rabbi. He was Torah observant, at least for parts of his life. And He very much existed in the temple period in Jerusalem, unquestionably.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so I wanna dive into some of this. But first, I wanna ask a question. When I was up visiting you work at PragerU-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... And interviewed me, and we talked about kind of a Christian's take on Jesus, which was really fun. And one of the things you said to me early on, you said something to the effect of, "If you're right, I still go to heaven."

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: "If I'm right, you don't." Is that fair? You made a statement like that.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes. One of the many things that bothers me about Christianity is the bar for you being wrong is so low- ... But the bar for me being wrong is so high, as in Judaism has a very liberal/generous definition of who gets into the afterlife, and it really matters more on your actions rather than your beliefs. Your beliefs are still important, don't get me wrong. But it's not like a Muslim or a Christian who denounces the Mosaic law cannot get into heaven. Whereas, if I deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, which, spoiler, I do, the odds of me [laughs] getting into heaven, from what I understand, are pretty low.

Sean McDowell: So tell me a little bit about this, 'cause for me, I feel like... I mean, if I'm completely honest with you, I go, "Whew, I'm safe. If you're right, I'm in. If I'm right, I'm in."

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: But if I'm sit in your shoes, I go, "I better be really certain-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Well, now-

Sean McDowell: ... This guy Jesus-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Is not God. I wanna rule every-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Possibility out, consider all the evidence." Is that how you look at it, or are you-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes

Sean McDowell: ... Not so concerned?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: No, that's exactly how I look at it, and now you can appreciate why Jews are so nervous all the time, 'cause there's- ... A lot riding on our beliefs. The first of the Ten Commandments is really unusual. In Hebrew, it's Anokhi Hashem Elokecha, literally know that there is one God. But it really has no place in connection to the other nine commandments. Don't kill, don't steal, honor your parents. Those are physical things you can actually do tangibly and practically. Know that there is a God, there's no real commandment behind that. So Maimonides, the 12th century-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Medieval philosopher, rabbinic scholar, he says, "Well, what does it really mean to know that there is a God? You have to know that there is a God in the same way that you know mathematical truth, in the same reason that you know that up is up and down is down." And it's interesting because our patriarch, the founder of our religion, is Abraham. But Abraham was-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Not the first person, and one can make a argument, depending on how you define Judaism, that he was not the first Jew. You have Noah. You actually have 10 generations from Noah to Abraham. You have 10 generations from Adam to Noah. So there were lots of people before Abraham. And Abraham, one of the reasons he was our patriarch is because he went out into the world and said, "Well, what is God, and who is God? Maybe it's the sun. Well, that can't be because the sun's power is limited. It's not there at night. So it must be the moon. Well, that doesn't make sense because the moon's power is limited." There's a Midrash rabbinic,

Shabbos Kestenbaum: story, let's say. It's not a great-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Translation of Midrash, but a rabbinic idea where, Abraham was working in his father's idol worship store, and ... Smashed all of the idols, save for one. And when his father came back and said, "Who did this? Abraham, how could you?" Well, Abraham says, "I didn't do this. The idol did it." And his father said, "Don't be ridiculous. Idols can't do anything." And Abraham said, "Exactly." So we have to be curious not only about- ... Truths, but also the existence of God. And I, after high school, did what most Orthodox Jews in the United States do, which is I went to yeshiva in Israel for two and a half years. I probably should've stayed longer. And I lived in the Old City of Jerusalem, two minutes away from the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Dome of the Western Wall, to literally study how do we know that we are right, because if we are wrong, [laughs] we're screwed. So I'm very confident in my Judaism. I really am. And that's why, unlike many other Orthodox Jews, I shouldn't say Orthodox, but unlike many Jews, I'm actually not only willing to have these conversations, but I actually think it only strengthens my faith when you provide questions and I'm able to answer them. And if I can't answer them, then let me research and explore. And as I always say, if you can make a really good argument, I'm happy- ... To be convinced. That has yet- ... To be the case, not with you, but in general has yet to be the case-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Where I've been swayed by another religion. But, I am very confident in my Judaism whereby I don't think that would happen.

Sean McDowell: So let's, I wanna come back to your story a little bit, but let's talk a little about Jesus. Who do you think he was and why?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Well, as I said, he was certainly Torah observant. He was certainly

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Quasi-rabbinic figure living in the times of the Second Temple. The divine aspects are not even corroborated by really any contemporaneous historian or source. I think the first message, the first documentation we get is from Paul in around 50 CE. Paul did not know Jesus. So the claims that were added after his life that he was a miracle worker, even if even if I conceded that that was true, and he walked on water, and he turned water into wine, all of those things could be true, it would still not qualify or quantify him as a messianic figure. In fact, the rabbinic commentators, and even the Old Testament, or I should say the Hebrew Bible itself says, "Just because someone can perform miracles does not mean he is or isn't a messianic figure." And in fact, at the time of the Second Temple, Judaism was really the only religion that had messianic claims. This was not ... Hallmark of any other religion or any other society. So if Jesus really was the Messiah, we Jews during the times of the Second Temple, we would've been the first ones to believe in him because we really want there to be a Messiah. But he did not fulfill any of the criteria that a Messiah is meant to fill, both in his life and certainly afterwards as well.

Sean McDowell: So let's talk about some of the miracles. Do you, did you expect or do you believe that a Messiah would at least do some miracles?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Sure, but again, it really wouldn't sway us one way or the other. In fact, when Moses, for example, in the Book of Exodus is told- ... To, turn the Nile River into blood, the Egyptian sorcerers say, "You know, big deal, we can do that, too." And they could also do that with the frogs. It was, it wasn't only until the third plague, a kinim, lice, whereby the Egyptian sorcerers were not able to do it. The Talmud is replete of stories of individuals like, Balaam, for example, who asks, Balak asks Balaam to curse the Jewish people. And, of course, God changes the wording of Balaam's curses, and instead of a curse, it's a blessing, "..."

Shabbos Kestenbaum: How goodly are the tents of Jacob. But we believe that, sure, certainly there is, I don't know, magic is probably not the right word, but there can- ... Be aspects of... Again, divinity's probably not the right word either, but there can be miracle aspects to people. But again, that would not in any way prove or disprove one's ability to be the Messiah. It's really about... Sorry, let me add one last bit.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It's really about rebuilding the temple. It's really about the ingathering of the exiles. It's really about restoring or bringing about global peace. And if you and I were to be objective, leaving our own religious biases aside, it's quite clear that Jesus, and no one [laughs] on planet Earth, has accomplished any of those things. The temple has not been rebuilt. You can make an argument there's been an ingathering of the exiles, which is why there's a term called religious Zionists, of Jewish Zionists who actually believe that the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 is what's called , the beginning of the, , the offsprings, let's say, of the redemption. So one can make an interesting argument that religious Zionists make that we're actually living in the Messianic age, but you can't really attribute that to Jesus.

Sean McDowell: Now, each one of these we could look at, rebuilding the temple, of course. We could look at peace. We could look at some of these different signs and look at the passages and debate some of those. Let me step back to the miracle claims.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Like Isaiah 35, Isaiah 61, often taken as messianic, passages and prophecies, do talk about certain miracles that a messianic figure would do like healing the blind, et cetera, and the deaf. So it sounds like we agree there could be some miracles that a Messiah did. One other question about Exodus, I remember this came up when you were interviewing me, is you're right. There's a clear indication that miracles can be done, or magic, by figures outside of, say, the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: You see this in the Exodus account. And yet even the magicians at some point, they stop and they go, "Wait a minute. We can't repeat that one." I don't remember if it's the flies or exactly which one it is.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It's the lice. Yeah, the

Sean McDowell: Lice

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... They were unable to do.

Sean McDowell: And they're like, "This is the finger of God."

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So there's different kinds of miracles that cannot arguably be done by magicians or demonic forces. But then there's certain miracles that seem to have more divine or messianic-type claims. Before I go any further, would you in principle agree with that, or would you challenge that idea?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Maybe in principle, but again, there's a tractate in the Talmud called Masechet Sanhedrin, and in the very first page of Masechet Sanhedrin it talks about how there are three keys that God does not give to other people. God alone has them. One of those keys is , the resurrection of the dead. And Tosfos, later rabbinic commentator on the Talmud, he talks about, "Well, wait a minute, that's not true, because we've actually seen people have been able to resurrect the dead." And he points to the story of Elijah and, Eliyahu. I don't know the English translations. I think Elijah and

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Eliyahu.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And Tosfos basically concludes that there can be moments whereby God sort of gives those keys over, to people. You know, one of the other keys is , is rain. Only God can bring about rain. But again, the Talmud will talk about instances of Honi HaM'agel, an individual who was able to bring about the rain. And again, Tosfos concludes by saying, "Well, again, there must be times where God allows people to perform those miracles, because of God." So again, I and the Jewish tradition is really not moved by miracles. So even if I wanted to concede 100% that Jesus, was resurrected, which I don't concede that point, but even if I did- ... It really would not sway our beliefs in any measurable way pertaining to a Messiah because, again, the biggest, fulfillments that a Messiah would have to fulfill just have not been met in any objectionable way.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so just so I understand, if Jesus literally walked on water, and you said earlier you believe he walked on Earth, but not walked on water.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: If he fed the 5,000, if he healed the blind, healed lepers, said, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna be crucified. Gonna give up my life." Mark 8, 9 and 10, and then is resurrected, not just raised from the dead, but resurrected from the dead in the sense of an immortal, imperishable, renewed body, not to die again like those who Elisha and Elijah raised from the dead. Even if that happened, that would not be enough to give Jesus the authority to understand and interpret the law in your mind. You would still say-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: That-

Sean McDowell: ... That's not enough.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Not only would that not be enough, but learning about Jesus in the full context of who He was as a person makes Him almost inherently unqualified to be the Messiah. So for example, it's sort of ironic, the Christian conception story, the immaculate conception, by definition makes Jesus ineligible to be the Messiah because you have to be from the House of David. Well, He has no house. [laughs] He has no tribe, because, a tribe comes from your father, it doesn't come from your mother. So according to every single Jewish criteria for many different reasons, Jesus wouldn't, would not be the messianic figure even if He were to do all of those miracles, which again, I don't think He did, but even if He did, it still wouldn't matter.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, I'm not sure why the lineage of David wouldn't... I'm not sure why that would disqualify Him, in the way that you describe it. If He comes from the lineage of David and some of the other ones from the Old Testament, I think that would be sufficient if that's in His line.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But using Christian theologians' own logic, He doesn't have lineage. He's the Son of God. He's not the son of Joseph.

Sean McDowell: Why I'm not connecting why that would disqualify Him, because if He comes obviously through Mary, and even Joseph, I mean, there's certain questions about adoption and is that a part of the lineage. I don't see why that would necessarily-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: In Jewish-

Sean McDowell: ... Disqualify Him.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: In Jewish law, one's Judaism, like one's religion, comes from their mom. So if your mom is Jewish and your dad is Catholic, you're Jewish.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Whereas the opposite is true for your tribe. So if your parents are both Jewish and your mom is from the tribe of, Yisroel, and your father is from the tribe of Levi, then you're a Levi. So if Jesus did not have a father, which is not our claim, that's your claim-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Then using Jewish logic, though, as to who the Messiah can be, well, then He doesn't have any lineage to any patrilineal descent, and therefore He can't be part of the House of David. But again, that's just one example of many others why Jews would say He didn't fulfill all of these things, therefore He can't be the Messiah. And I think the most important point to make, though, fundamentally, is Jews want to believe [laughs] in Messiah. Like- ... The, if there is one thing all Jews can agree on, is that we are waiting for the ultimate redemption. We are waiting for there to be a third temple. We are waiting for there to be peace on Earth. We are waiting for there to be the in-gathering of the exiles. And if Jesus could do it or could have done it, then great. We would have loved to have followed Him. There have been messianic figures throughout Jewish history. In fact, in the Talmud it's stated that Rabbi Akiva thought that Bar Kokhba, who led a revolt against the Romans, was a Messiah. But then Rabbi Akiva was killed, and as the, Maimonides, as the Rambam says, once someone is dead, then they can no longer be the Messiah. So too, my dad comes from the Chabad Lubavitch Hasidic movement, which believe that their rabbinic figure, Mena- Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was the Messiah, and he probably was while he was alive, but then he died in the '90s, and now he is no longer the Messiah because he is dead.

Sean McDowell: So the point, lineage I guess we could discuss more, but it's interesting even Luke and Matthew seem to have different lineages tracing for Jesus through His mom and through His father. So yes, He's the Son of God, but still has a lineage He's a part of even if it's not biological. We could, I think we could nuance some of those, but let's talk about the peace one, for example. Where does it say in the Old Testament that as the Messiah comes, He would initially bring in peace, as opposed to peace being something in the end of the age that the Messiah would bring?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah. That, that's a great question. So it's interesting, as you know far more than I, the Hebrew Bible itself, I don't think explicitly mentions Olam Haba, literally the world to come, at all. [laughs] There are allusions to the Messiah in later writings, but most of the time you're not going to see any explicit mention, and in fact a lot of contemporary, at least Orthodox rabbinic figures will say, "Well, that's kind of the point, right? We have to focus on Olam Haze, literally this world, and we don't really concern ourself with what's called Olam Haba, the next world. So is there a heaven? Yes, we have these rabbinic sources, but we shouldn't really worry about it," which is in fact one of the reasons why the Hebrew Bible barely talks about specific rewards you will receive for doing specific things.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: One of the weird exceptions is this mitzvah, this commandment called shiluach hakain, where you shoo the mother bird away. So the Bible says that if you shoo the mother bird away and then take her eggs so she doesn't have to watch this very traumatic experience of you taking her eggs away, you will be given a long life. And so the rabbis are kinda confused, like this is a very odd commandment, number one. [laughs] And then number two, it's a very odd thing to then say this is your specific reward, because typically we don't really do things for the reward or the punishment. We don't do things for the potential consequences in the afterlife. We do things either because they're just objectively good things, or it's because God told us to do those things. So in terms of bringing peace on Earth, the specifics of your question, it's more of the Talmud that talks about it. So there are many references, I shouldn't even say references. There are many explicit discussions, specifically towards the end of the tractate called Sanhedrin, about what the Messianic age would look like.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But there are other passages as well. The first one I'm thinking of is towards the ending of what's called Masechet Sota, where it talks about that, yes, He would be bringing peace on Earth. That would be one of the telltale signs that this is the Messiah. Him coming about will bring the peace. Now, there's also this, because Jews can't agree on anything-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: There is a different interpretation-

Sean McDowell: Glad you said that, not me.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs] Right. There's a different interpretation that actually, no, and this is probably more to your point, that no no, we as human beings will create peace on this Earth, and once we have all come together and sung Kumbaya- ... Then we bring about the Messiah. So that's a differing approach, but I would say in my rudimentary understanding of the Talmud, the plurality, not majority, but certainly the plurality opinion seems to suggest that by virtue of the Messiah coming, He will actually bring about peace Himself.

Sean McDowell: Okay. So in fairness, Talmud is written minimally 2 to 500 years after the time of Christ.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes and no.

Sean McDowell: Correct.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It's when... I mean, literally written probably, but there are discussions that are happening that even predate Jesus. So the Talmud finishes-

Sean McDowell: Fair enough

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Its completion 500 CE, but there are discussions in the Talmud between rabbis, for example, who literally never met each other. It was discussed for hundreds of years, and then it was actually, I don't know if codified is the right word, but it was actually written, yes, it was written and finished roughly 500 CE. But again,

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... There were people who knew Jesus and were speaking about Jesus, or at least referencing Jesus in the Talmud, but there were also rabbis in the Talmud who predated him by hundreds of years.

Sean McDowell: Okay. So I guess my question would be where we get our authoritative source, and you and I are gonna agree that the Hebrew scriptures, I'll call it that instead-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Of the Old Testament.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Appreciate that. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Last time you took issue with that, which is totally fine.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs] Sorry. Sorry.

Sean McDowell: I don't wanna die on that hill. The Hebrew scriptures don't explicitly tie the Messiah to a period of peace that will be ushered in immediately, that I, that I'm aware of.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I mean, sure.

Sean McDowell: I mean, the Messiah, it'll be at the end of the age, and of course what we mean by the end of the age is something we're gonna have to debate-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... And discuss, and that could be a long period of time.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But I mean, again-

Sean McDowell: And so you're-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I'm not disagreeing, but I guess my cop-out answer would be yes, it's true, but it's also true they don't really talk about the Messiah at all. It's easier for me to explain, or to rationalize why I'm Jewish than it is to rationalize and explain why I'm an Orthodox Jew, because an Orthodox Jew- ... Believes foundationally and fundamentally that the words of our rabbis in the Talmud, and in other books like Maimonides, Nachmanides, Rashi, are either divine or divinely inspired. So for example, when I drank this cup of water, I said a blessing to myself, ""Now, nowhere in the Hebrew Bible will you find that blessing. Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible will we be told as Jews to bless. This is all instituted by the rabbis. Why do I wear a yarmulke? You will not find any reference, allusion, a explicit mention of a yarmulke. It all comes from the rabbis. So the fundamental question that Orthodox Jews have to contend with is, why trust the rabbis? Because if we don't have faith in the rabbis-

Sean McDowell: That's an interesting question

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Then the entire faith is basically, not standing on anything.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so that's really helpful. Given that they disagree and debate so much, you say they don't-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Agree about anything.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: And there's no clear statement about there being peace at least centuries before the time of Christ, and it's not in the Hebrew scriptures. Unless we come to the conclusion independently that we can trust the Talmud as authoritative, it doesn't seem like that could be a criteria necessarily to dismiss Jesus as the Messiah when that expectation wasn't there when He came on the scene and fulfilled other prophecies of the Old Testament. As I see it, you would differ, but tell me why I'm wrong in that assessment.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs] Well, who am I to tell you, the professor and

Sean McDowell: Well, yeah

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Preacher why you're wrong. I don't, I wouldn't say you're wrong.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I would say we have differences of opinion, which is even before Jesus, there were Messianic expectations amongst Jews. I mean, you can look at the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran community, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it was very clear that they were waiting in anticipation, and quite conceivably-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... In immediate anticipation-

Sean McDowell: I agree with that

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... That there would be a Messianic figure that were to redeem them. It is not true, though, that the only or first classifications of who or what the Messiah is comes from the Talmud. There are allusions to it, so later books, I I don't wanna say 'em 'cause I'm not a rabbi and I could be wrong, but I, at risk of being wrong, I think it's Yechezkel, I think it's Daniel. They talk about, you know, the Third Temple. They talk about an age of peace, but that is elaborated and clarified in greater detail certainly, yes, in the Mishnah and then later in the Talmud.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm. Okay, this is really helpful to me to surface, I think, where the difference of authority and how we approach this is at, 'cause I think the way I'm looking at this is I'm saying if Jesus claims to be God, and obviously you differ that, we could go into some of those passages. And I, yeah, I mean, I think as we look at Paul, I think we look at the Gospels, I think we look at Hebrews, every early text has a high Christology of Jesus. There's no Christian movement apart from that.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I would make that argument. Obviously, you would push back. Maybe that's another conversation we have. But it sounds like the difference is really where we put the authority. So why, I'm curious, how would you answer the question? I can make a case, and if you wanted me to, I will. Maybe we'll do this another time why I think the Bible's true. Old Testament, sorry, Hebrew scriptures.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Hebrew Bible.

Sean McDowell: Hebrew Bible.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Why I think the Gospels, Letters of Paul, et cetera-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Are authoritative, are reliable. But tell me why, as an outsider looking in, I should take the rabbis that come second to fifth century, although the debate was earlier than that.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Why should I take their words as authoritative from God?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I mean, there are lots of reasons, but the most obvious reason is because God Himself says in the Hebrew Bible. He says that confined within these five books are really the prophets and the writings as well, will not be all of the laws. I can't explicitly state everything in these books, therefore I'm going to institute a system of rabbinic scholarship. And when those rabbinic scholarship adjudicate or elucidate my words, that is an extension, says God, of my own words. In fact, there is an actual commandment, or prohibition I should say, of not adding or subtracting, which is one of the reasons why Jesus would probably be invalid as the Messiah, because He very much adds a lot, to Judaism as a religion. But it's also true that God says that we are going to have a system of rabbis, and you should listen to that system. It's one of the reasons why, for example, that the Karaites, even though, I don't know how many Karaites are alive today, but there is a Karaite synagogue, for example, in the Old City of Jerusalem. There is a debate amongst Jews today as to whether the Karaites are even considered Jewish, because they don't take the oral law or the rabbinic, scholarship as divine at all, and that's in complete contradiction To what the Hebrew Bible and God Himself is saying. In Hebrew it's lo yasor, I believe. You know, you should not stray leftward or rightward from the words of the rabbis. Which again-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Places so much emphasis in the divinity or divinely ordained aspect of the Talmud and the later works of the rabbis.

Sean McDowell: So tell me if I'm misunderstanding. Maybe I did. The rabbis can add and subtract, but Jesus can't add and subtract.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: No one can, no one can add or subtract. What the rabbis are doing, for example, and the reason, let's say, go back to this example of blessing on water. That's not adding anything, that's simply trying to understand and explain God's own words in the Hebrew Bible. So I'll give you an example. God says, and I apologize, I don't know the English translation, but He says, "I want you to keep the holiday of Sukkot," which today is known as the Festival of the Booths, which Jews has been keeping for 3,000 years, where we live in these temporary structures, for a couple of days outside. The problem is, if you read the Hebrew Bible, God says, "I want you to keep the festival of Sukkot," but that's it. He doesn't actually say what Sukkot is. So is that like a soup? Is that a Like, what is that? So then the rabbis, through an oral tradition, which is why even though the Talmud is written down, we still call it the oral tradition because it was passed down orally from Moses outside, Moses at Sinai to the elders, all the way down to my actual rabbi. I mean, people can actually quite easily, trace their rabbinic lineage. So my rabbi's rabbi was so and so, his rabbi was so and so, all the way up to Moses. And through that oral tradition, coming all the way from Moses at Sinai, we are able to explain and understand what are some of the things that God is telling us to do in the Hebrew Bible, because to the uninformed observer, like me, it's unclear what Sukkot is because God Himself doesn't say it. Another example, it also has to do with the- ... The holiday of Sukkot, is God says, "Take an eitz prei hadar," which essentially just means a nice looking fruit. Today, all Jews, and this has been the case again for thousands of years, we use which, we use what is called an esrog, which in English is a, I believe a citron fruit, which no one really knows what that is. But it's called an esrog.

Sean McDowell: [laughs] Okay.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And the problem is though, nowhere in the Hebrew Bible does God say esrog. He just says, "Take this, you know, beautiful fruit." So how do we know what that beautiful fruit is? It's because we have an oral tradition going all the way back from Moses when he received the Torah on Mount Sinai, that what is an eitz prei hadar? Oh, it's an esrog. And so that's how we Jews have been living, our lives for 3,000 years, under the assumption that what the rabbis are telling us are in fact not only an oral tradition from Moses, but actually when they adjudicate, when they extrapolate, when they debate, they are doing it in fulfillment of God saying, "I need you to build rabbinic scholarship to continue on this religion."

Sean McDowell: So in some ways I think, this is, this is helpful to me, that I think we both look at our traditions as speaking for the God of the Hebrew scriptures.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: The question is, where does that authority lie? Is it with the rabbis, or is it with Jesus? That seems to be, at least to me, we've clarified where that difference is. If I could go back, even though you said if Jesus was resurrected, you wouldn't, that would not be enough to convince you that He's the Messiah, tell me why you don't believe that He resurrected. Actually, before you do that, if He did resurrect, I mean, what You said he's not God, he's not a prophet, he walked on Earth. If he did resurrect, what would you conclude about him if that happened? How would you process that if ... Historically that it happened?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: If I was convinced historically that Jesus was resurrected, then my understanding would be that Jesus was resurrected, and that would basically be it. Jesus is someone who violated Torah prohibitions, so you can't be a Messiah and, for example, I don't know, not keep the Sabbath or not keep kosher. Again, Jesus probably did do those things, but He at no point encouraged His followers to do those things. I mean, Christianity today is markedly different than the Christianity of the times of Jesus and in the couple of hundred years after Jesus. I think actually Jesus, if He were alive today, which, I don't know, maybe He is, but if He were alive today-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... I I actually think He'd be pretty shocked at what Christianity turned into. I mean, my under-

Sean McDowell: I would totally disagree with that, depending on the details

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... My understanding of Christianity, and again, using the term Christianity as coming from our 21st century contemporary goggles.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But at the time, they wouldn't call themselves Christians. They would say, "We're more we are the more pious Jews. We are fulfilling God's words more than you other Jews are doing." But fundamentally, if you are going to violate prescribed Torah law, like Shabbat, like kosher, then you can't be a leader of the Jewish people. And this isn't just true of Jesus. We have had false Messiahs in the past. So probably the most famous example is an individual called Sabbatai Zevi, and he convinced a lot of people, I mean a lot of people, that he was the Messiah. I mean, Jacob Frank has writings upon writings whereby people were actually selling their properties, people were packing up their businesses- ... All to move to the, to the Holy Land, and then Sabbatai Zevi is arrested by the Ottomans and he converts to Islam. And that's kind of the end of the story, because you can't be the Jewish Messiah if you then convert to Islam. Doesn't really work that way.

Sean McDowell: Well, we can certainly agree on that one.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: There's no question about that. So I just want, I guess I want to make sure I understand.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: By the way, it wasn't Jacob Frank, it was Nathan of Gaza. I apologize. Not Jacob Frank.

Sean McDowell: Fair enough. Both new to me. So if Jesus did claim to be God, and I realize we're not arguing that right now, if He claimed to be the God of the Hebrew scriptures, then it would seem to me He would at least in principle have the authority to interpret or understand, or even overturn the way people have been practicing certain traditions.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: In principle.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I

Sean McDowell: If He is Yahweh, would He have that authority to do that?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I would be with you if you did not use the word overturn. That seems a little-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Dangerous for me.

Sean McDowell: Okay. Tell me why.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Because again, you can't... Once you have a Biblical commandment You, there is nothing you can do to change or add or subtract to that Biblical commandment. In fact, adding or subtracting is a Biblical prohibition. So for anyone to overturn it, again, this is one of the problems with Shabbatai Zevi, for him to say that we don't have to keep the laws anymore, we don't have to keep the Jewish holidays, well, that is a telltale sign that you are not, in fact, the Messiah. In fact, early rabbinic scholarship used that point, and they probably had Jesus in mind, but they used that point of saying- ... If a Messiah's going to come along and say, "We now don't have to do all of these things because we're entering a new era," then you for sure know he's not the Messiah. The Messiah needs to be a pious individual who's not only Torah learned, but Torah observant, who brings about the things we were mentioning earlier. You know, I know you're hung up on the world peace, and it's an interesting theological debate, but just, like, practically speaking, as I said, I lived in the Old City of Jerusalem for two and a half years. You can go to the Old City right now. I encourage your listeners to do it. There is a mosque on the Temple Mount.

Sean McDowell: I know.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: There's no Third Temple. So it's very difficult for Jews, who, again, really want to believe in a Messiah, but it would be very difficult for us to concede the point that Jesus is the Messiah when he has been, I won't use the word dead, but he hasn't been around physically for a very long time, and there is still no Third Temple.

Sean McDowell: Well, yeah. So part of it would be is it the temple of his body would be one question, and we could talk about what that means. And then we'd have to look, same as you did with peace, we'd have to look at the passages that clearly link the Messiah to the physical rebuilding of the Temple. That's an angle we would have to go down, which we'll hold for another time. Let me come back to the resurrection. So if Jesus claims to be God, then maybe we don't use the term overturn, but he can interpret, he can help us with authority how we ought to use and apply these commands going forward, it would seem to me. Let me ask one more question before I come to that. Are all the commandments in the Hebrew scripture still applicable today, or have any of them ended for any reasons in your mind?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It [laughs] I'll give you a Jewish answer. It depends. [laughs] It depends how you define applicable, simply because about a third of all the 613 commandments can only be done with a temple.

Sean McDowell: With a temple. Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... I'll give you an example. Every Shabbat, we go to, we pray three times a day in synagogue, but on Shabbat, we have an extra prayer. It, it's called Musaf, which actually literally means additional. And the Musaf prayer concludes, the Musaf prayer, the, I guess the, not spiritual climax, but really the point of the Musaf prayer is we actually recite what the order of the animal sacrifices on the Sabbath are. Because during the times of the Temple, we wouldn't be praying, we would just be doing the animal sacrifices. And we conclude every single week, Jews have been doing this for 3,000 years, we conclude the Musaf prayer by saying, "This is the order of the Musaf prayer. This counts as if we had just given the animal sacrifices in the Temple." So when you say suspend, it basically depends how you define suspending 'cause we we can't physically do it, but we've sort of evolved, if that's the right term. Having said that, I wanna piggyback on something that you had said, and I don't know if you meant this deliberately, but our conversation sort of centered around Jesus as a Messianic figure But you just used in your question the term that Jesus is God or claiming to be God or whatever.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But that issues a whole other can of worms because the Messiah, I think we can have a debate, but to claim that a person or he's a part of God, whatever that means, that would be even more,

Shabbos Kestenbaum: indigestible to the Jewish, community to have God existing outside of anything other than God. In fact, one of the prayers that kids are taught from- ... A very early age is what's called Yigdal, and you sing it on Friday night after services, and it's a really nice tune. But part of Yigdal is Ein lo de mus haguf, ve'ein lo guf, that He has no physical characteristics, He has no body. So the idea that God would, again, I don't know the exact terminology, but He would take form of a man or He would be part of man, that would be totally alien to any Jewish thought at any point in Jewish history.

Sean McDowell: There are so

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It's easier to debate the Messiah.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It's I just, let me rephrase. It's more complex to debate the Messiah 'cause I think you make interesting points, but it's very easy to debate Jesus being God because that would be so not acceptable within the Jewish faith.

Sean McDowell: There are so many roads I wanna go down here.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: And I'm tempted to. Maybe I'll just bracket this, and we'll come back to it.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But there might be passages like in Genesis 17 or like in Genesis 32 where Jacob is wrestling with God.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: With an angel of God.

Sean McDowell: And yeah, but, even that raises a question. What does it mean to be an angel of God and a messenger of God in human form? You see a similar kind of almost Yahweh-type figure in Genesis chapter 17 that's really interesting. So I would love to come back to that and explore-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Okay

Sean McDowell: ... The angle with you. Again, I would see it very differently, but tell me why you just don't believe in the resurrection even though you don't think that would convince me.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Wow, you are hung up on the resurrection.

Sean McDowell: Well, I'm not hung up on...

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: So here's what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to be hung up on this.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: You [laughs]

Sean McDowell: I'm trying to take individual claims you're making and just at least explore them in some depth-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Sure

Sean McDowell: ... Rather than pepper everything.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But no, it's, it's a fair point, but again, even if I were to concede that the resurrection happened, I mean, in modern Hebrew, we say, like, sh'koyah, which basically means, like, "Okay, sure, it happened, sh'koyah," but, therefore what? I mean, lit- that's, like, therefore what? Jesus is problematic as a Messianic figure for so many other reasons. So we can, sure, He was resurrected, but it still does not refute any of the claims that I was making earlier and any of the theological immovable principles that Judaism has had for 3,000 years, both pertaining to a Messianic figure and certainly pertaining to a divine figure.

Sean McDowell: Okay. All right. So that's interesting in terms of how you approach the resurrection. So if I'm understanding you correctly, somebody could be on Earth, make divine claims, again, we haven't established that-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... In principle do miracles, say, "I'm gonna die" And the third day, I'm gonna rise from the grave. God allows that to happen, sanctions it, but that doesn't in any way confirm the message that this individual gave.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I just, I guess with my limited understanding of Christian theology, I just don't see how that is markedly different than Elijah and Eliyahu and Elisha doing the exact same thing to that boy.

Sean McDowell: Okay. So I would, I would say the difference would be that boy didn't make messianic or divine claims.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But did-

Sean McDowell: That boy-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Can I, can I just quickly interject?

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Did Jesus, in his life, make messianic or divine claims, or were those claims made-

Sean McDowell: Very clearly he made the-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Later after him?

Sean McDowell: Well, okay, so now we're getting into can we trust the writings about Jesus, which we'd have to establish.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I mean, you asked

Sean McDowell: But

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Which is fair, how do we know that the rabbis are right, which is a fair question-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... And something that we Jews have to defend. But Jesus himself in his lifetime, were he making, was he making the claims that he's the Messiah? My understanding is that no, people were making the claims for him after he was dead. Either Jesus told me, Jesus appeared to me, I heard it from him, but Jesus himself saying it directly, maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is no, he actually never made those claims.

Sean McDowell: I think he made it pretty clearly in John chapter four.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Okay.

Sean McDowell: Now, of course, I'd have to establish is this reliable-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Right [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Is this historical, which would-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I was gonna say

Sean McDowell: ... In some ways, that would take us aside, but I think in John chapter four, which is a book most scholars would say written in the 90s, so decades after the time of Jesus, but I would argue rooted in

Sean McDowell: in eyewitness accounts and archeological support, et cetera. But in verse, in 4:25, this is the woman at the well. "The woman said to him, 'I know that the Messiah is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.' Jesus told her, 'I, the one speaking to you, am he.'"

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Again, to sound like the annoying pessimist in the room again, to your own point, Jesus dies in what, 30 CE, 35 CE? This is decades after the fact. In the Jewish tradition, for example, the biblical canon, with the exception of possibly the last few books, were all written by Moses, you know, while he was alive, dictated directly by God. Again, the the last, few books of the Book of Deuteronomy, it's unclear who actually wrote them. But-

Sean McDowell: 'Cause he talked about his death. [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Exactly. So that, whether it's like there's some debate, well, who did this?

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But leaving those few books aside, the entirety of the five books of Moses is written by one guy during his lifetime, dictated by God, and the contention I sort of have with Christianity is, well, how come, and I think we mentioned this on our show last time, how come you don't have contemporaneous sources during the times of Jesus, either Jesus himself or his associates, who are talking about this is what Jesus is doing right now? I mean, as I said, I think the first person-

Sean McDowell: Well-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... To mention Jesus is Paul in 50 CE. I think the first non-Christian source we see is, what's his name with a P? I'll remember his name in post-production.

Sean McDowell: Non... Wait, you said non-Christian source.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: The first non-Christian, it's a Roman, officer. I will remember his name. I can tell you the moment we stop, we stop production, I'll remember his name.

Sean McDowell: You'll... Okay.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But it starts with a P. Anyways, and he just talks about how there are these groups, I don't think he uses the word Christian, but there are these groups of people who are, you know, very upset because this figure was crucified, and it's quite clear that he's referring to Jesus.

Sean McDowell: You're talking about Josephus at the end, in the 90s?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Not Josephus. I'll get it in a second. I'll Google it.

Sean McDowell: This is early second century, worshiping Jesus as if he were a god.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So I, so this is a question about what historical sources can we support. I mean, in some ways, if the Talmud is written centuries after Jesus and we're looking for reliable historical sources, that's not one I would remotely consider as a reliable source about the person of Jesus.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But again, to be clear, when you say written, like literally written down, yes, and it was actually controversial when it was written down. It was not meant-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... To be written down because when you write something, you confide it, you actually restrict and limit its ability to impart change and knowledge.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But in terms of like discussions that the Jewish community were having, for sure, this was happening both during, before, and after the time of Jesus, which I believe would make it a very historical and credible document.

Sean McDowell: Well, I think that makes my point though. If this is two centuries removed, and we have a book written in the 60s, clearly well-known at that point. This is about a third the distance removed. That's only one example.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And if I go to Mark, written as early as, you know, I mean, I could give the dates, an argument for Mark. We have Luke. It's not like we have one source written 200 years later. We have multiple sources from Jesus himself, from his followers, claiming that he's God, having the words of Jesus saying things-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Like in Mark chapter 14, which almost all scholars would say is the earliest account-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Of Jesus, and has a written kind of early testimony behind it. This is where you and I are obviously going to differ on this one, but I think historically speaking, to have so many sources so early, so unanimous that Jesus claimed to be God, I don't know that we can dismiss it and say he didn't claim to be God or claim to be the Messiah when there's at least so many sources.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, no, I'm definitely not dismissing that people claim that he was the Messiah. That, for sure, for all the sources you just mentioned, for John, for Luke, for sure. What I am, I wouldn't say dismissing, what I am skeptical of is that Jesus in his time and his contemporaneous sources or associates are not making the claim during his lifetime that this is someone who is either a messianic figure or the Son of God. Jesus himself is not saying that. And again, even if I wanted to concede the point that he said he was the Son of God or he is the Messiah-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Or whatever it may be, you still have this intractable problem of 3,000 years ... Jewish criteria and sources on what constitutes a Messiah, what constitutes our redemption, and we just don't see that Jesus fulfilled those things. And again, that's not specific to Jesus. We haven't seen anyone fulfill those things, including people who we actually thought were the Messiah. So we are, as I said earlier, we are the first religion to have Messianic expectations. We want there to

Sean McDowell: Hm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... An ultimate redemption. We want there to be a rebuilt temple. We want there to be Torah observance increased throughout the world. The problem is we haven't been able to place a figurehead at the forefront of that movement. And again, we would've been the most obvious choices to follow Jesus, and there's something to be said over the fact that so many did not.

Sean McDowell: It's interesting when you say we, because there's quite a few in a significantly growing Messianic Jewish movement even within-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Israel. So, like, obviously most don't believe and accept Jesus, and we could talk about reasons why, which would take us far aside. But so last question on this, and then we'll we'll move on.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Sure.

Sean McDowell: It sounds like-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: This is fun

Sean McDowell: ... If I'm hearing you correctly, Jesus walked the Earth, practiced Jewish traditions in some sense, taught about it, didn't claim to be God, didn't claim to the Messiah. These traditions emerged within decades and show up in the various documents later on, but they were not in the earliest tradition about Jesus. Is that a fair summary?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah, that is fair, and articulated it far better than I ever could.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And I would say that's even a more liberal concession and generous concession than most Jews would even make. I think you would find-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... A lot more hard line conservative Jews who would probably argue that what I just said or what you just said in my name was heretical. But I believe that to be the case, what you just said.

Sean McDowell: Fair enough. Well, given what you said about Jews not agreeing on anything-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... I wouldn't expect you to speak for all Jews.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes, I am not. Certainly not.

Sean McDowell: But so last question on this. What's the evidence for that?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: For what?

Sean McDowell: What is the evidence that Jesus lived and walked, didn't make these claims, and then it appears in the earliest strata, Letters of Paul, Mark, Luke, John, et cetera, Hebrews, consistently. I just wanna know historically, why should I believe that he didn't make the claims that everybody-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Well

Sean McDowell: ... Early on unanimously says that he made, and there's no early strata of him claiming anything else.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Well, that's sort of unfalsifiable, right? You can't really prove a negative. It'd be easier for me to say, what is your proof that he did walk on water? Because someone said it? If I were to tell you that I just walked on water and I got my friend to tell you that I did, is that enough proof? So it's probably easier for me to ask you the question that way.

Sean McDowell: Okay, fair enough. So I I can make that case. I'd be happy to come back on your show-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... And go into the details on that.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Okay.

Sean McDowell: We can. But I,

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Know it's an annoying answer, but

Sean McDowell: ... No, yeah, I mean, I think if you're gonna say this is what happened, you've gotta give some reason to back it up.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Because I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Sean McDowell: When

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And the same reason-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... You have no reason to believe that I did walk on water, because the established-

Sean McDowell: Okay, so you walked on water

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Status quo is that I didn't.

Sean McDowell: You walked on water is totally different than Jesus walking on water, and I think this gets back to the difference between, say, Elijah... And let me make, let me clarify here.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Between Elijah and the person Elijah raised and Jesus, there was no claims to be the Messiah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: That I would argue are early and consistent in the text. There's no testimony to that person doing miracles early on, claiming to be God. There's not the expectation of this, and that individual rose and died again. The claim about Jesus is that this was the first fruits of the resurrection from, like, Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 36:37, Daniel 12:2, that the Old Testament talks about this at the end times, that it happened in the middle of history. So I would just argue there's a qualitative difference between rising from the dead and an actual resurrection.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Well, I think there are a lot of ways of responding, but I think the most concise one would be it's interesting, and I'm not trying to sound, annoying here, but it's interesting that you would use Isaiah or Ezekiel or other biblical sources and prophets to talk about the end times and these signs of bringing back the dead, but then not the other signs that no one, let alone Jesus, has accomplished either. So it's sort of like, well, we'll use the biblical prophets when Jesus fulfills those things, but when the biblical prophets talk about other things that Jesus kind of hasn't fulfilled, well, that's sort of like an inconvenient truth that we'll circumvent. So again, I'm happy to be convinced that Jesus was the Messiah if people can show me that there isn't a mosque on the Temple Mount right now, if people are able to show me that Torah observance has increased amongst the Jewish people. I think actually the only real convincing argument that we are currently living in the Messianic age is actually the establishment of the state of Israel, and that's not me really saying this as a Zionist, 'cause I'm actually not that big of a Zionist-

Sean McDowell: Hm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Which might be a shock to some of my enemies on Twitter. But, I think the most convincing argument is the ingathering of the exiles has literally happened. There are Jews from Ethiopia, Jews from the Soviet Union, Jews from all four corners of the world that have come to Israel since-

Sean McDowell: Hm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Its establishment in 1948. And in fact, one of the coolest parts is the Jewish tradition talks about the Kanfei Nesharim, that we will-

Sean McDowell: Hm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Fly to Israel on the wings of eagles. And that was written thousands of years ago. And so the religious Zionists will say, "Well, what's a wing of eagle? What are the wings of eagles?" It's airplanes. And so every time Israel conducted Operation Magic Carpet and Operation Moses, and they used El Al cargo flights to do it, that is literally the biblical fulfillment of taking Jews from the middle of nowhere, bringing them on wings of eagles and then bringing them to the Promised Land. You know, there are other biblical prophecies, for example, that talk about how the deserts will start blooming, how you will start producing, of the Earth. You know, Israel has one of the highest, productions of milk per capita of any other-

Sean McDowell: It's amazing

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Country. They have turned the-

Sean McDowell: It's amazing

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Negev Desert into a, like, bountiful, beautiful, I wouldn't say forest, but there are a lot more trees today than there ever have been since the time of the Second Temple. So I actually think the only group who can make a very convincing argument that we're living in the Messianic age are religious Zionists. And they talk about, for example, I think it's Isaiah, but I could be wrong, they talk about this quote from the Old Testament of the old, the elderly will be sitting as they watch the kids play in the streets of Jerusalem. And that was sort of just, like, fanciful thinking for 2,500 years, and now you can just book a one-way ticket on El Al, on United, and you can actually see that literally happening of elderly Jews from Iraq, from the Soviet Union, from Turkmenistan, from Australia- ... Who are casually sitting on a park bench in Jerusalem and watching these young kids, Jewish kids, you know, playing ball in the playground. That has, that has literally not happened since the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans in 70 CE.

Sean McDowell: Now, I'm with you on Ezekiel 37. And by the way, again, another conversation, I would not pick and choose certain prophecies. I'd love to go to Isaiah and Daniel 9 and some of these-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... In ways that I do think are pointing towards the Messiah. Again, conversation for another time.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: But I think you and I have similarity on Ezekiel 37 and the fulfillment of Israel, and seeing some of the remarkable things. Not only milk, that was a new one to

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... But the amount of, like, water that-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Israel's giving to its neighbors, the number of technology, the way it is kind of being a blessing to the world. I think you and I would see in common that that is a kind of biblical fulfillment.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Let me ask you a question about, your boss said something, and I fear I might misrepresent him, so I'm gonna do my best.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, no. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: I heard this probably, I don't know, I'm gonna guess 2008, 2009. This was in, it was Christopher Hitchens, the late outspoken atheist-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Dinesh D'Souza, and Dennis Prager. And it was-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: That is a great lineup, by the way

Sean McDowell: ... It was at a synagogue in Newport, if I remember correctly. My wife and I were there, and I asked a question that God asked. I said, "Who do you think Jesus was?" And I remember Dennis said something effective. He clearly doesn't think he's the Messiah, clearly doesn't think he's divine, but somehow God used him. And I think a consequence or punishment might be too strong, but to kinda take the Torah to the world, it, with somebody who's Jewish by descent, but obviously has a different take on what that means, kind of used Jesus in a way as... I I'm struggling for a better word. As a way of kinda saying to the Jewish community maybe, "Hey, this is what's supposed to happen, so I'm gonna use somebody called Jesus- ... Who you reject, to take the Torah to the world." Hopefully I represented that fairly.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: If I did, what's your take on that?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Well, I am smart enough to know you don't disagree with Dennis Prager, especially when he is the one signing your paychecks.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I would say that it's certainly an interesting take.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I would say, let me answer it first sociologically and politically. I had said at the vigil of Charlie Kirk which was essentially a rally for Jesus. I mean, [laughs] there's no other way to qualify what that was. And I had said, "This is great, and America would be a much better country if more Christians went to church, and America would be a much-

Sean McDowell: Was this the vigil in LA, that was?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: No, it was in,

Sean McDowell: Or what was it?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... In Tucson, Arizona.

Sean McDowell: Oh, so you went out to the-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah Well, you

Sean McDowell: Were there

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... With President Trump and

Sean McDowell: Oh, okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Tucker Carlson, unfortunately. But you know, the big one. And as I say, it really was just a rally- ... For Jesus. I

Sean McDowell: Agree. [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Speech. And I'm sitting there, and I'm obviously Jewish, with my nice little yarmulke, and I really thought it was great. And as I said, Christians would do this country a tremendous service if they got other Christians to go to church and learn the New Testament, and hopefully the Old Testament too [laughs] , and learn by, the principles of Jesus Christ. I think that would be great for America, and really for Western civilization. In fact, so many of the problems we're experiencing in Western civilization, whether it's the rise of loneliness, whether it's the epidemic of consumerism, so much of that can be attributed to the fact that so many young Americans have actually detached themselves from religion. We're seeing post-Charlie Kirk- ... There's been a surge for the first time that Gen Z is actually more religious than their parents.

Sean McDowell: It's interesting, yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And that is awesome. [laughs] ... If you wanna say that Jesus was a divine instrument by God to bring about the fulfillment of the knowledge of God, then it's an interesting take. I would probably have to think about that a lot- ... More. But so long as the words of Jesus are being used in the servitude of Judeo-Christian values, in the servitude of building better husbands- ... And fathers and better societies, then sure, great. And I don't feel threatened by that at all, and I encourage

Sean McDowell: Fair enough

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... My Christian friends, you should be a lot more [laughs] religious than you currently are.

Sean McDowell: So the afterlife, tell me about it.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: How you, just how you see it. I know you had, you just expressed having a big debate with Michael Knowles about this, who's Catholic.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We don't have to go into those distinctions, but you believe in a Heaven and a Hell? And who goes there?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah. Well, I'll start with the easy part, which is basically-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Anyone. [laughs] I mean, the criteria of getting in is pretty low. Now- ... The real question is, well, what part of Heaven? So for example, the Ethics of Our Fathers-

Sean McDowell: Oh, okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Which is a second-century rabbinic text, it's called Pirkei Avot in Hebrew. They start Pirkei Avot by saying, "Kol Yisrael yesh lamchalkah l'olam haba," that all of Israel has a portion in the world to come. Again, we don't really use the term Heaven, but Olam Haba, the next world. So meaning any Jew can just be in the next world, and the answer is kind of yes, but, a Jew, by virtue of being Jewish, has a place, but it might be a really bad place. You still have to work on yourself. You know, we don't take the Christian approach, for example, that someone else can die for your sins, someone else can absolve you of your sins. No no. Your life is your responsibility. You take- ... Ownership and responsibility for that life. In terms of the Hell part, there's kind of this misconception that you may have heard that, oh, Jews don't believe in Hell, which ... Is sort of true, sort of not true. There is this concept called so'ar rotachat, which literally translated means boiling excrement. This is where a lot of antisemites get the idea-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... That we believe Jesus is boiling in excrement, which is not true.

Sean McDowell: This is from one of the rabbis or the Talmud. Where is that statement from?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: The I believe it's... I could be wrong.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I believe it's first mentioned in the Talmud.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It's talked about in greater depth in the Zohar, which is the book of Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah. But I, but I do believe, and again, I'm, please correct me, but I do believe that the first mention of it is in the Talmud, this so'ar rotachat.

Sean McDowell: Rotachat. Fair enough.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And they actually talk about the location, like where is it, and it's in Jerusalem, which lo and behold. So there are people who will be punished. However, the way in which Jews define punishment probably differs than classical Christian theologians' conception of punishment. So when you die, your world goes, the Ramchal says this, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto. He says that your world goes to what's called the Olam HaNeshamot, the world of souls, and your body goes back to the ground. This is one of the reasons, for example, that Jews are actually, opposed and are not allowed to cremate because as the- ... I think it's from the Book of Genesis, "You are from dust-"

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: "... You will go back to dust."

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: So your body has to go back to the ground. You are buried, and then your soul is in this world of souls. And then this is where Christianity and Judaism do see eye to eye. There's sort of a judgment. There's a measurement of sorts as to how you measured your life, and this is where our conception of hell might differ because hell is not punishment for the sake of punishment. And I'm saying hell, even though Judaism doesn't really use that terminology. We use the terminology of Gehenna-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Which means Gehenna, which is like an actual place.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And they will say Gehenna, this is how it was explained to me when I was in yeshiva. Gehenna is the place of ultimate regret, meaning- ... You are seeing your life, your 120 years, and you are seeing all that you could have been, all that you could have done, all of your potential, and you squandered it by sin. You squandered it by, you know, sleeping in till 4:00 in the afternoon. You squandered it through adultery. You squandered it through extreme cases- ... Of murder, of rape, you know, bad things. And so hell is just in a horrendous feeling of regret and shame over the things you did and the things you could have done instead. It's not a devil with a pitchfork and a fire. Again, there are some medieval rabbinic interpretations-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... That suggest, no, it actually is. But as I said, that's not

Sean McDowell: The standard

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Mainstream rabbinic approach, although there are some rabbis who would say that. But the mainstream approach is really, it's just this intense feeling of guilt and shame. When someone dies, if, you know, God forbid, my, a close relative, if a close relative of mine died, I would say what's called the Kaddish, which is a prayer that mourners say for the departed. You only say it for 11 months, and then after those 11 months, you only say it once a year on the anniversary of their death. Why do you only say it for 11 months? Because there is a rabbinic tradition that the longest, the absolute longest that a soul can be in Gehenna, can be in essentially what is hell, is 12 months. So we don't want to imply that our departed- ... Loved one is an evil person and is spending the full 12 months in hell. They're only doing 11 months, which is why we'll, we only say Kaddish up to 11 months. Having said that, there are exceptions. So the classic question when people learn that Jews don't believe in, like, in infinite hell is, well, you know, what about Adolf Hitler?

Sean McDowell: Can I guess? I knew you were going there. [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah, what about Osama Bin Laden? So there are exceptions. Don't you worry.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: There there are exceptions. But ultimately, God is the calculator of calculations. He is the ultimate one who, divine, divvies up judgment. So we're not entirely clear as to what that process would look like. And in fact, the Gemara Mesechta Brachos, I think it's, lama dalat, page 34, they talk about how the biblical prophets were able to know to a certain extent the Messianic age. But Olam HaBa, the next world, even they don't really know. And and Nachmanides, 100 years later, and they often don't agree, but they sort of agree on the approach that, yes, no one can definitively say what Olam HaBa, the next world, is because no one's actually been there. So we do know there will be a resurrection of the dead. Now, what does that literally mean? Because Judaism, in some cases, actually believes in gilgulim, which means reincarnation. Again, it's not a main focal point of our- ... Religion. It's not a mainstream approach. But our, some of our most revered rabbinic figures, like the Arizal, has an actual, a whole book called Sefer HaGilgulim, where he'll just talk-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... About who was reincarnated into what. So what does it mean that there's a resurrection? Will there be death after resurrection? What will we be doing? So there are those debates, but ultimately, we know that the, it will be an intense cleaving to God, an intense awareness of peace on Earth, of ultimate knowledge and truth. It's not a physical, or materialistic heaven and/or hell, so we don't believe in the fire and brimstone- ... Really, but we also don't believe in, you know, 72 virgins because this life is a physical life, and physicality is also limited. Whereas- ... The highest level of pleasure is one that is sublime because it is spiritual.

Sean McDowell: How bad is antisemitism today?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Is it getting, is it getting worse? Like, tell me a little bit. My viewers, listeners might not recognize, and I'm not asking you to get into details, but you were at Harvard Divinity School. You successfully sued for antisemitism.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Whoo.

Sean McDowell: So you made your case there. How bad, I'm not asking so much about Harvard, so to speak, but have you seen it increase in your lifetime, and how bad is it now?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It's not that I've seen it increased in my lifetime. It's that I've seen it in my lifetime, which I never- ... Thought would happen. Up until October 7th, I was born in the United States. I'm an American. I'm only an American. I had never experienced antisemitism before in my life. October 7th was the first time I ever experienced it, both on a national scale and then personally.

Sean McDowell: Really?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And in fact,

Sean McDowell: Not October 8th, October 7th.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's an important-

Sean McDowell: ... Of the attack.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, yeah. That's an important distinction because people sort of create this or concoct this narrative whereby, well, it was only after Israel conducted its genocide in Gaza, that's when all, you know, people started turning on the That's not even true. On the night of October 7th- ... I can show you screenshots of ... Classmates of mine at Harvard University who were posting in a student WhatsApp group pictures of Hamas terrorists on top of Israeli tanks with captions, "Victory is ours. Glory to the martyrs. Globalize the Intifada. Glory to the resistance."

Sean McDowell: Unbelievable.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: This is on the night of October 7th.

Sean McDowell: Unbelievable.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: So no, this was not, you know, months and weeks- ... After the fact. But that's on a global scale. You know, personally, I then experienced it, whether it was staff members challenging me to debate them in secluded underpasses whether Jews orchestrated 9/11, and then threatening me with machetes, whether it was, anonymous trolls on social media, you know, telling me that they're going to kill me. I mean, I get death threats weekly at this point. On October 6th,

Sean McDowell: Weekly. Jeez

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... I wouldn't even have the conception of what a death threat is. It's just such a silly concept. So no, it's pretty bad, and I will get a little political, which is we are filming this the day after Zohran Mamdani was just elected mayor of New York City. This morning, whatever the date is, November 5th or 6th, Magan Magen David Yeshiva, which is a storied Jewish day school in New York City, I actually spoke there a few months ago, they had swastikas painted all over the school building as of this morning. So this is just a day after Zohran Mamdani was elected. So I don't think American Jews had it this bad in probably the last 50, 60 years. You know, my parents left the United Kingdom to come to the United States specifically because they escaped antisemitism.

Sean McDowell: When was this? When did they leave?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, this was about 35 years ago.

Sean McDowell: Oh, my goodness.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And so my dad especially, who really experienced antisemitism- ... He was a visibly Jewish person, he's pretty horrified to see what's been happening. And I actually told him not to come to my graduation at Harvard, this is a year or two ago, because I knew what was going to happen. There would be walkouts, "Globalize the Intifada," you know, free Palestine. And I told him not to come because not only was I embarrassed on a personal level- ... But I did not want him to see what the United States had become, because he came to the US very idealistic. You can be anyone you want, you can do anything you want, you can serve anyone you would like. And I never once thought of my American identity and my Jewish identity as a contradiction. On the contrary, they were quite complementary. I'm very proud to say I'm both American and Jewish, and for the first time, we actually had to start thinking about, where our priorities lie. Because if America turns on us, you know, where do we go, and what do we do next? And that's obviously an extreme case, and I don't think we're at that point, and I love this country. And I love our president, and the best friends that Jews have are Christians, bar none. But it is definitely a conversation that every single American Jew has been having since October 7th. You know, what do we do if... Not when, but

Sean McDowell: Okay. Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Things were to get really bad.

Sean McDowell: Why do people, and historically it is the case, hate the Jews so much? Where does that come from?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I was gonna make an antisemitic joke, but I'm not going to. That would be in poor taste. We can make those jokes, but you know, they, the other side can't.

Sean McDowell: I know. I'm not... Yeah, I'd get fired if I made one.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I would, I would say this, and again, this is, this is leaving the political arena and going back to spirituality and theology. The Hebrew Bible prophesies that so long as Jews are in exile, which we currently are- ... Even if we wanna say Jesus is the, is the Messiah, we are living in exile because we don't have a third temple. We do not all live in the land of Israel. Jews are in exile. The Hebrew Bible says, "So long as you are in exile, you will be a scattered people," which for the most part we are. We live all over the world. "You will be a small people," which we demonstrably are. In fact, there are less Jews alive today than there were on the eve of the Holocaust. We are, still are roughly a million Jews short.

Sean McDowell: Less.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah yeah.

Sean McDowell: So there's 14 million today? How many?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: There, there's about 15 million Jews today, and in 1939 there were 16 million Jews. I mean, there are very-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Very few Jews alive. Which by the way, I'm forgetting who, but someone was on Joe Rogan's podcast, and he asked Joe Rogan, "You should guess. How many Jews do you think there are on planet Earth?" And he said, "A billion." "No, it's less than a billion."

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: "Okay, half a billion." He said, "No, it's 15 million."

Sean McDowell: A billion, he guessed.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: So, yeah, we're a very small religion, and I always talk about Mormonism as a great, example of this. So The Church of Latter-day Saints was started in the 1830s and '40s, and really-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Took off as a church in, like, 1860s. There are more Mormons today than there are Jews, and Mormonism hasn't- ... Even been around for 150 years, which really qualifies what I think the validity of the Hebrew Bible. You will be a small people, check. You will be a scattered people, check. And then the third thing is you will be a hated people. Double check to that one. And so I've actually seen God manifest in this world post October 7th than I have ever seen God manifest in this world. What do I mean by that?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: If you go back to December 6th of 2023, the congressional hearing on antisemitism, where three of the leading morally bankrupt individuals in the United States, Claudine Gay, the president of Harvard, Liz Magill, the president of the University of Pennsylvania, and Sally Kornbluth, the president of MIT, they are asked under oath on live TV in front of Congress by Elise Stefanik, "Do the calls for genocide against Jewish people violate your code of conduct?" And we worked with the House Education Committee on some of these questions, so I can tell you and your listeners that was not meant to be a trick question at all. The trick question was meant to be the follow-up, which is, "Now that you've said yes, of course these violate the code of conduct, how come you've allowed the calls for genocide?" But remarkably, one president after the other insists it actually depends on the context. And mind you, these are institutions of higher learning that rank dead last when it comes to free speech, that have safety, safe spaces and trigger warnings and disinvite controversial speakers. I mean, Harvard was literally ranked- ... 248th out of 248 American universities by the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expressions when it came to free speech. But all of a sudden, when it comes to antisemitism, no, we, you could call for the genocide, just depending on the right context. And Congresswoman-

Sean McDowell: Interesting

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Elise Stefanik, she asks them a second time, and you should watch the tape. It's the most watched congressional testimony in American history.

Sean McDowell: I remember it actually.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: 1.8 billion views. She literally says, and I quote, "This is a softball question. I will give you a second chance to respond." And the, for the second time, each president, one after the other, insists it really does depend on the context. And to me, that was, as you said earlier, the Etzba Elohim. That was the hand of God. Of God saying, "You will always be a hated people, and I'll prove it to you. I'm going to get three presidents of what was meant to be the moral beacons- ... Not just of American society, but of Western civilization. On paper, the smartest people, the most intellectual, the most sophisticated." And God says, "Watch what I'm going to get them to say. They are going to say, under oath on live TV in front of Congress, multiple times, that you call for the genocide of Jews." That, to me, exemplifies and proves the validity of God's word because He had said 3,000 years ago, "So long as you are in exile- ... You will be small in number," yes, "you will be scattered," yes, "and you will be hated." And in fact, the Zohar, which is the book of Jewish mysticism, it's Kabbalah- ... It actually says that antisemitism is God's reminder to the Jewish people that we are, in fact, a unique people. And the more the Jews- ... Try to assimilate, the more Jews try to take off their kippahs and try to be like, just like everybody else, antisemitism comes along and says, "No no, you are not like everybody else. That does not mean you are better. You're not better, but you're different. You have a different responsibility." So you as a Christian, Jews would say you only have to keep seven laws, the seven Noahide laws, which most-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... People keep just by virtue of being alive.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Like, don't kill, okay? Don't eat the limb of a live animal. Okay. Set up courts. Like, you pass all of these things just by being born.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Whereas Jews, we're not better, but we have a different obligation. For us, it's not seven, it's 613. And so the more we try to say that, "Well, no no, we're just the same," antisemitism comes along to remind us, "No, you're not. You have a very different purpose and mission in this world."

Sean McDowell: I would agree with you that part of antisemitism, there's a spiritual component to it. I think also just some of the success that Jews [laughs] have had creates envy amongst so many people. I think that's a piece of it. But so it's, it sounds like you're saying, in some ways, antisemitism, ironically, I don't think I've ever heard somebody make this point, is a reminder of God's promises, and it helps keep Jewish identity and not to just blend in with the world, which was commands going all the way back to the time of Abraham and, of course, Moses. Antisemitism, in some sense, functions that way with Israel and has over time.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah, and in fact, there have been leaders during what's called the Haskalah, the Enlightenment, in the mid-1800s, who essentially said, "If you want to escape antisemitism, just assimilate. You know, take off the kippahs and just either convert [laughs] ... Just become a Westerner." And that clearly [laughs] didn't work. I mean, the Holocaust was probably the best reminder of that no. The more you try- ... To do that, the less acceptable you will be. And it's interesting because on a political level, I see that on a daily basis. The far left, they have called me a white supremacist more times than I care to count, whereas the far right, they don't, they don't think I'm white. They think I'm a Jew, and they hate me because I'm not white. Whereas we were killed in the Holocaust because we weren't white, but today we have white privilege. So it's totally irrational. And I agree with you that- ... Part of the reason why we might be hated is because, yes, historically, we've been oppressed and victimized, but we don't really see ourselves as victims. And in fact-

Sean McDowell: Hey, you don't act that way

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... We've really bounced back since the Holocaust. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I mean, not to sound conspiratorial, but we are in every single field in American life, whether it's entertainment and media, sports, culture, politics. Jews really do have an outsized influence. It's not because we control things. It's because we put a really serious emphasis on education and professional success and making something of yourself, and I would encourage anyone listening to do the exact same thing. Send your kids, not to public school, send your kids to schools where your values are totally aligned, where they will encourage and challenge- ... Your kids to be the best versions of themselves. Don't cater to the lowest common denominator. That's not just a Jewish approach. Every parent should be doing that. But yes, even though that antisemitism is a spiritual orchestration, the way in which God manifests it is through practical means. So part of it is diversity, equity, inclusion, for example. Part of it is the victimhood mentality, you know, the Nick Fuentes saying, "Well, I can't- ... Get a wife. I can't hold a steady job. I can't be professionally successful because, you know, something the Jews." Yeah, there are political reasons for it, but ultimately it's because God is orchestrating that on a grandiose scale.

Sean McDowell: Well,

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And sorry, and let me make one last point-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, go ahead

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Which is why, as much as, yes, if people know who I am, it's probably because I sued Harvard for antisemitism, but truth be told, I really don't define myself by antisemitism. And- ... It bothers me on a personal level. You know- ... I don't like getting death threats. I don't like when people are mean to us.

Sean McDowell: Of course. Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But I have to say, it doesn't really phase me. What I'm- ... Way more concerned about is the six million Jews today who've never walked inside of a synagogue, who can't learn the Hebrew-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Bible 'cause they can't speak Hebrew, have never been to Israel. They're not proud of their identities. That is what concerns me way more than anonymous trolls on Twitter saying, "We're gonna kill you." And that's why I feel so blessed to have, you know, friends like you and ... Universities like this one that really challenge people to recognize that God's law is not something you learn or study. It's also something you live on a day-to-day basis. As I said, America would be a much better country, and by the way, the Jewish people would be way better off [laughs] if more Christians lived by the New Testament, served their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and really believed in that on a day-to-day basis.

Sean McDowell: Well, I will definitely amen that one.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: That's for sure. In our age of critical theory, oppressed versus oppressed, Jews certainly don't have an oppressed mindset whatsoever or an oppressor mindset. I think it's amazing that we're in the middle of a a concern about the birth dearth, not having babies, and, like, Israel's-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Leading the world with-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Almost three-something per women. Like, that's-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Remarkable.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And by the way, I'm one of seven, which is fairly-

Sean McDowell: You're one of seven. [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah, which is fairly typical for my American Orthodox community. I mean, I know people who are one of nine, so this is pretty- normal.

Sean McDowell: I wish more Evangelical [laughs] ... Would follow that lead. So two last, two last questions. I, maybe I keep saying that, but why are-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: No, please

Sean McDowell: ... Why are Christians and Jews not having this kind of conversation that you and I just had or are having more often?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, man, that's a great question. I don't know if I'm qualified to speak about why Christians aren't doing it. I mean, there certainly are Christians who are doing

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Such as yourself and your son. Certainly Reverend Johnnie Moore, who I was with, just a few nights ago. Certainly the Christians United for Israel, the, Philo Project. So there really are great organizations and great Christians who are doing it. Certainly there should be more, don't get me wrong. In terms of why Jews aren't doing it, that's probably within my lane that I can answer.

Sean McDowell: That, that's fair.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: It's probably twofold. First and foremost is we are taught, and this is biblical law as well, that not that we are better, but we are different. So for example, Jews, by biblical law- ... Are not allowed to go inside of a church. Forget about we can't worship inside of a church.

Sean McDowell: Really?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: We literally cannot enter a church. So there has been-

Sean McDowell: I didn't know that.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, yeah. So there has been... It's called,

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I think it's called ho'as ha'amim, but I could be wrong. It's essentially, it's a term whereby we should not be like the other nations, especially when it comes ... Issues of religion. Again, not that we're better.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: But it's just we are Jews, and you be Christians, and we'll be Jews in our synagogue, and you'll be Christians in your church.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And so there is just a natural, through our religious tradition, a natural, I wouldn't say aversion, but clear lines of demarcation between where Jews are meant to go, in what spaces and what areas of life. So that is number one. And then number two, just historically, Jews living under Christian countries historically did not have very good lives. We can talk about the Inquisition. We can talk about the Crusades. We can certainly talk about the Holocaust. We can talk about communism, which to be fair, communism was not Christians, but it was done in predominantly Christian countries. So there is historical, historically, a lot of trepidation and concern over, you know, 1,000 years of persecution- ... At the hands of Christians. That is true, and we should not whitewash that history, and it's a history that both parties have to contend with. But what is also true is we are living in a very different age. We are living in a very- ... Different society, and we also have very different enemies. And as I think I said earlier, the best friends that Jews have, whether it's in the United States, whether it's in Israel, anywhere in the world, the best friends that Jews have are Christians. And I remember an excellent speech-

Sean McDowell: Amen

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... That Reverend Johnnie Moore gave about a year ago, where he said, in front of a room of rabbis and Jewish educators, he said, "You may," referring to us as the Jews, "You may not like that we pray for you, and that's okay, and we're still gonna pray for you."

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And I think that's awesome. And shame on us as Jews who are not willing to acknowledge that Christians are not seeking to proselytize or to convert. They're simply wanting to be our friends and our neighbors and our family. And we must reciprocate and recognize, in Hebrew it's called hakaras hatov, show gratitude- ... To our Christian friends. I remember, and big shout-out to the Christians United for Israel, CUFI, I remember speaking at the CUFI Summit. I've been speaking there for the last two or three years. I hope they invite me back. And a young-

Sean McDowell: CUFI. Say that what is for people that won't know.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, CUFI. The Christians United for Israel.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: They are Pastor John Hagee's-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Organization that fights for the land of Israel and Judeo-Christian values.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: They have nights to honor Israel all over the United States.

Sean McDowell: They do.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And I've been speaking at their conference the last couple years. They have a CUFI on Campus division, which is deeply concerned about the rise of antisemitism, and they mobilize young Christians to speak out against it. And my, I don't know, second year speaking there, a young girl comes up to me after my speech, and she hands me an, a a gold coin with Jesus's picture on it, which is definitely the first gold coin-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... With Jesus's picture I've ever been gifted. [laughs] And-

Sean McDowell: I haven't been given one of those, just for the record.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah. Well, you're missing out, man. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: But keep going. [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah, I didn't really know what to do with it, but,

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... But I was so flattered. And ... The fact that people would stop me 'cause they see my kippah and they say, "You know, we're praying for you," I mean, oh, my gosh, that's incredible. What, how lucky I ... To have friends like that. I mean, I've been speaking at so many Jewish organizations, and I'll just give you a quick funny anecdote.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: And when I speak at Jewish organizations, oftentimes there's not even kosher food. I mean, shame on the established Jewish community. Every time I've spoken at CUFI and other Christian organizations, not only has there been kosher food, but the funny story is when I first spoke at CUFI, I took the red-eye from LA to DC, and I show up to my hotel. It's like 2:00 AM, and I'm hot and tired and don't smell my best. And I open the door of my hotel room, and there was a gift basket waiting for me of a, with a handwritten note by Pastor John Hagee himself, saying, "We're so sorry Shabbos what Jewish students are experiencing. We pray for our hostages," not the hostages. You know, "God bless the Jewish people." And the gift basket is not only exclusively kosher food, it's exclusively kosher for Passover food. And mind you, this is, like, in July. And, you know, Passover's in, like, May. And I'm like, "Wow, this exemplifies how lucky we Jews are and how lucky I am to have such wonderful people." And yes, we have obvious theological differences-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Which is why I'm Jewish and you're a Christian, and never the two shall meet or whatever. But that does not mean we can't have excellent personal relationships and recognize the humanity and godliness within the other. And I think Jews need to be way more proactive about establishing these relationships. And as I said, shame on the Jewish community who don't do this. Way more Jews need to be, lifting up and amplifying and thanking the brave Christians, the men and women and young people who've stood up for us. And as I said, we have literally no better friend on planet Earth than Christians, in particular Christian Americans.

Sean McDowell: I appreciate the way you interpret Christians praying for you and Christians who would witness to you out of the goodness of their heart and based on what they believe and interpreting it in the lens that you did. I think it's great. Promise, last question.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: No.

Sean McDowell: This is your-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Keep going.

Sean McDowell: I didn't know you couldn't go into a church. That's interesting to know.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes.

Sean McDowell: But you're on Biola University's campus. What was it like?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: What was going through your mind as you're pulling into an evangelical school-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Talbot School of Theology.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: This is my studio. And how did people treat you, and what did you see-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Being here?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Well, I a lot of people were confused. I think they probably thought I went on the wrong campus, took a wrong turn.

Sean McDowell: Seriously?

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs] I was getting a lot of looks-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... With the kippah. And in fact, one person did actually stop me and asked-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... If I was a Messianic Jew, which I had never been asked that before. But again, I,

Sean McDowell: Ever

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Guess in context it sort of makes sense. You know-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... Being at a Christian university with a kippah probably raises a few eyebrows.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: So I was, I was stunned, and I'm actually glad that I parked in the wrong parking lot, because it gave me a lot of time to walk here and pass all these buildings. I am stunned in a very complimentary, positive way, that this university has on their [laughs] building walls pictures of Jesus and- ... Quotes of the New Testament, and reminding the students who are walking to class that you are a child of God. I mean, what an incredibly uplifting message to be telling young people. And I wish that Jewish universities, there aren't that many, but Jewish universities- ... Like Yeshiva University, like Touro University, would have biblical paintings of maybe not Jesus, but [laughs]

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: For obvious reasons, but, you know, paintings of Moses and Abraham and Sarah and quotes from the Hebrew Bible, and in reminding them time in and time out that you are a child of God, and you're not here merely to take classes in a vacuum, but you're here to take classes to, advance the causes of Western civilization for Judeo-Christian values for the Jewish people. That would be such ... More of an uplifting message than constantly talking about antisemitism. ... So I was really taken aback, by being on this university, and I hope this is the first of many visits, not just to this university, but other Christian universities. And, you know, it's quite clear that Harvard and Columbia and Penn and UCLA do not have a monopoly on intelligence. They do not have a monopoly on good-paying jobs.

Sean McDowell: Right.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: They certainly don't have a monopoly on [laughs] morality or religious integrity, and I think it's a really good idea and a good thing that we are seeing an increasing share of the American people going to universities that align with their values. ... If you're a Christian, as I've been saying time in and time again, go to church, go to universities that want Christians, and don't scorn and denigrate your beliefs. Be the best Christian that you can possibly be, and I think this university, just in the hour or so I've been here, does that to a really large and good degree.

Sean McDowell: You know, people are probably giving a double-take because as I think about it, I'm not sure I've seen people walking around with yarmulkes

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Our campus.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yes.

Sean McDowell: We've had a few dialogues, debates in the past, but just somebody walking around who looks like-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Older than could, but maybe be a grad student-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Or something like that, gave people pause. But I guarantee if you come back, and I hope you will, we could bring in an audience. Students would ask you-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Let's do it

Sean McDowell: ... Questions.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: They'd be so interested. They'd wanna know about your life, and we could have some of the conversations we had here-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Yeah, that'd be great

Sean McDowell: ... Even probing further. So I guess I said last question, but how can people follow you, the work you're doing? And tell me when the podcast my son-

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Oh, yes. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... And I did is maybe coming out.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Sure. Well, I can start with that one. I don't know.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: We are starting a show at PragerU called Theological, which you and your son have been on, incredible guests and incredible episodes. It is in development. It's in production, so stay tuned. I hope to have

Sean McDowell: Great

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... A publish date soon, but I don't know. That's the short answer. People can follow me on Twitter and on Instagram, just type in my name, Shabbos Kestenbaum. There are not, there are no other Shabbos Kestenbaum,

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Shabbos Kestenbaum: ... I am the first and only one that will pop up.

Sean McDowell: Fair enough.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: I typically post about religion and politics, so you can find me complaining there. I complain a lot on Piers Morgan's show a lot, so you can find me there as well. But, if you don't wanna follow me, I don't blame you, but what you should follow, is Professor Pastor Sean McDowell. You should certainly follow your Bible. You should certainly follow your professors because as I keep saying, America would be a much better country if people were, you know, to think biblically.

Sean McDowell: That's a great mic drop moment. Thanks for coming on.

Shabbos Kestenbaum: Thank you. I really appreciate it. [upbeat music]