My Apologetics Dinner Party

Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] What does an apologetics dinner party actually look like? How do you develop an environment that's conducive to these types of spiritual conversations? And what are some of the most challenging apologetic issues that could come up in these types of conversations? We'll address these questions and a whole lot more with our guest, Louis Markos, who is author of a brand new book called My Apologetics Dinner Party: A Real-Life Socratic Dialogue. Louis, thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it. I'm your host, Scott Rae.

Sean McDowell: And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.

Scott Rae: This is the Think Biblically podcast from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University.

Louis Markos: Hey, thanks, gentlemen, for having me on. This is a, this is a great, kind of climax for me. It's InterVarsity Press, and I grew up in InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, doing small group Bible studies, of course reading Sean's dad's books and giving them away at the book table. And so it kind of all builds up to this whole idea of... Now look, I When I was young, it was Campus Crusade and it was InterVarsity, and Campus Crusade was more focused on what we call door-to-door evangelism. And I'm not against that. The Lord uses that all the time, but my personality was more the InterVarsity, what we called friendship evangelism. There was, Becky Pippert, Out of the Salt Shaker and Into the World. So a lot of this is coming out of my experience, not only as a professor, but even as a student, always being parts of small group studies, bringing people in, friendship. And so a lot has sort of gone into the book and a lot of life experience.

Scott Rae: Yeah, you answered my first question before-

Louis Markos: [laughs]

Scott Rae: ... I even got to ask it. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Scott Rae: Thank you. You know, you made it, you make it clear in the book that this, that the conversation you record in the book did not all happen in one, in one evening. Which that would've been, that would've been a lot of spiritual conversations in an evening. But these are, these are based on conversations you've had in your home, I take it, over meals or over coffee, on repeated occasions. So tell... What motivated you to write the book in this dinner party format? 'Cause it's super creatively done.

Louis Markos: We need it. And I was so proud to get an endorsement from, Peter Kreeft, because Peter Kreeft is sort of the king of the Socratic dialogue. When I was a young Christian, I read his book Between Heaven and Hell. 'Cause C.S. Lewis, John F. Kennedy, and Aldous Huxley all died on the same day, and he imagines them kind of like in purgatory having a Socratic-

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Louis Markos: ... Dialogue. And he's written a lot of books. And I really like that format. I like using that format when I teach. And I thought we need more apologetics in this format so that whoever reads my book can imagine themselves engaging in that dialogue. They don't have to be a professor. They don't have to be a preacher in front of a room. They can be somebody with friends in a room just talking back and forth. And gentlemen, I believe that we need to revive the art of conversation, where people are listening to each other, not talking past each other.

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Scott Rae: Hear

Louis Markos: In fact, at one point in the, in the book where we're discussing a topic and it almost gets political and I have my daughter rein us back in, "No no. We can't do religion and politics. Let's just do religion."

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Louis Markos: And understand that we can have... And a real big thing about this, and maybe this will upset people sometimes when they read the book, but you know, I grew up with this idea that you always have to close the deal. Well, what that means in evangelical terms is you better not let that person go till you lead them in a Jesus prayer. And I think sometimes, you know, if the Holy Spirit is saying, "This is the time," that's okay, but we don't have to always be reaping, always getting the Jesus prayer. A lot of times if we just lay a foundation, if we just let them know the gospel in a small way, even if we just erase from their minds what is not the gospel and what is not Christianity. So we have to not always feel like we have to win. 'Cause gentlemen, sometimes when you're in apologetics, you might win the argument and lose the soul. It's not about

Scott Rae: Oh, God forbid

Louis Markos: ... Winning. It's not... Like we used to say when I was a kid, it's not about putting another notch on your belt. It's about sharing Christ and allowing the Holy Spirit to work. So again, these dialogues are not about I beat you. It's about let's have a dialogue and let you understand what the Bible says, and just as importantly, what the Bible doesn't say.

Sean McDowell: So you deal with some of the classical timeless issues, like are miracles possible? Who did Jesus claim to be? Can we trust the gospels? Resurrection. But then you deal with some of the more controversial topics, like, you know, the title of chapter six is Why Are Christians So Obsessed With Sex? Now, I'm actually really curious, which of these topics, if any, in your experience, generates some of the most just difficult, divisive conversations to have?

Louis Markos: It is tough. And then like I said, you know, you can't do everything in a book, and so I kind of steered clear of going too much into all the heavy duty sexuality issues about gay marriage and all that. And actually in an earlier version of the book, I did go that way-

Sean McDowell: Oh

Louis Markos: ... And the editor's like, "Hey, you can't do everything in one book, so let's just sort of relax, okay?" 'Cause sometimes that gets them in. But what you really need to do, and we did keep this in the book, is when you're talking about sexuality, let's get to the deeper question. Do I own my body or not? And too many-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Louis Markos: ... Americans, even Christians, have this idea that I own my body. I I don't remember if I mentioned this in the book, but I read a great article once, and I don't even remember the title, the author. But the point was that Christians, when we make the pro-life argument, in some ways we lost the argument immediately when we started speaking in terms of rights. We should be speaking about duty. But because we're such Americans, we want to talk about right. And I'm sorry, when you're arguing about the mother's rights as opposed to the unborn child rights, of course the mother's gonna win. But that's not what it's about. It's about duty. It's about who gave us our body, what we're supposed to do. So what I'm getting at is that we need sometimes to get to the worldview issue deeper down. What... I mean, think about that. My body, my right. We immediately have this false notion that we somehow own our body, rather than our body being given to us as a gift, and maybe the God who created our body knows better than we do the proper way to use our body. So it's about getting people to think in different ways, and that's what we need to do often. I remember, I think, Sean, when we did an interview, just the two of us many years ago, I was telling you that I learned from your dad, and I think you did too, that I got to decide how far I'm gonna go with this girl. And he said, "Well, you go as far as with that girl as you hope your daughter's gonna go with her boyfriend someday."

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Louis Markos: Well, and remember, I'm sure he taught you that too.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Louis Markos: The point is that sometimes we need that kind of thinking to fully engage our mind, our conscience, our sense of morality, our sense of ethics. Sometimes that gets us thinking. And again, it may take that person another couple years. You may have to come back and talk to them in two years, but if you've started to get them thinking in truly moral, ethical terms, that's the beginning. That's what you can do in a conversational setting to get all of us thinking about this in a fresh way.

Scott Rae: Now, Louis, you've had some, you've had some very interesting conversations that, you describe in the book. And, there, several of these dialogues were some- I think some really helpful things came out that I think our listeners would appreciate. So tell our listeners the conversation you had about hell on on one of these. It's described about halfway through the book. Super helpful.

Louis Markos: Yeah. One of the things I want to get people thinking about is what is hell and what is hell not? What is heaven and what is heaven not? And I, and I've used this argument before with different people. I think a lot of Americans have this idea that life is like college, and if we get an A, we go to heaven, and if we get an F, we go to hell. And wouldn't that be nice, gentlemen? Because it's almost impossible to fail out of an American university.

Scott Rae: That is true. [laughs]

Louis Markos: So it would be kind of nice if that was the case. But that's not the case. We have to get out of our mind that heaven is the A and hell is the F. Heaven means spending eternity in the presence of God. I don't know exactly what we'll... I'm sure we'll be praising God. Whether we'll sing hymns or chorus songs, I don't know. But whatever else hell, heaven is, it means being in the direct presence of God for eternity. Whatever else hell means, whether the fire is literal or figurative, whatever, it means being out of the presence of God for eternity. And folks, there are a lot of people that don't want to be in the presence of God. Well, how can you go to hell... I'm sorry, how can you go to heaven if you don't want to be in the presence of God? If you don't want God, there is no other place but hell. That's actually what you are desiring, because you don't want God for eternity. You want yourself, your desires, your passions, your sins. You want to hold onto them forever. And I shared, and I've shared this many times, having a conversation with a friend, where he kept saying basically he didn't like God. And then he said, "And another thing I don't like about God is he sends people to hell." And I said, "Well, if you don't like God, where else are you going to go?"

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Louis Markos: Right? And and it's just-

Sean McDowell: Good point

Louis Markos: ... Again, it's one of these things that we just don't think about often, and we need to spur ourselves on to realize what we're... Just like, a similar example to that would be somebody saying, "I can't believe in God because the world is unjust." And then you have to stop and say, "How do you know the world is unjust?" If there is no God, then all there is ultimately is Darwinian natural selection. And if all there is is natural selection, then there is no justice or injustice. There is the will of the stronger. There is survival of the fittest or natural selection. So the very fact that you recognize injustice in the world should make you ask, "Where am I getting the idea of justice from?" And that is gonna point you to God. In fact, guess what? There is no problem of pain if there is no God. If Darwin is right and all there is is natural selection, then there is no justice or injustice. There just is what it is. The moment we get angry at injustice, we are bringing in a standard, and that standard is ultimately bringing in God.

Sean McDowell: Well, there is a problem with pain, but the problem is how a material thing could gain feeling and sense [laughs] which is not material. That's the problem for the naturalist, not the way we typically hear the problem of pain. I know you're with me on that. I love your point about describing heaven as the presence of God, and somebody saying, "I don't like God, but I can't blame this God 'cause he sends me to hell."

Sean McDowell: It's like, wait a minute, that's actually what hell is, granting your wish to not want to be with God. You maybe just don't realize the full extent of what that means. Now, what you're talking about is this involves things like listening to people, asking questions, connecting some dots over a meal. But let's take a step back. Your book is called My Apologetics Dinner Party. What is an apologetics dinner party? Where do the people come from? Do they show up thinking they're getting good chicken, and it's like, "Ha ha ha, we're talking about the problem of evil"? Like, frame this thing for us, if you will.

Louis Markos: It is... I've been part of a group called the Houston International Christian Fellowship. It's dedicated to them and to the couple that started it that I'm still good friends with. In fact, we just had one... Okay, we're recording this on, two days after Memorial Day. We're recording it. So two days ago, we had another international party with people from all over the world and stuff like that, and we get into conversations. We talk about things, and you know what you know, what is it we're desiring when we desire Heaven? What... Is desire a good thing or a bad thing? That's the way you have to start with, especially when you're talking with a Buddhist who thinks that desire is the problem, right? So anyway, the Houston International Christian Fellowship has always been a group that meets, and it brings people together for some kind of a potluck dinner. And often people bring cuisine from their own country. And sometimes people don't bring food. That's fine. There's always enough food. But people are coming together, and you share a meal. And when you share a meal with people, I think it opens them up. They're more relaxed. They're more... You know, they It's a good place to share cultural differences. And then the way we do it is we always have worship, and luckily I can play the piano, and so I lead worship. We do hymns. We do chorus songs, get people singing. And then now normally it We've been going through The Chosen for the last several years. You know, the great... And so I'll show about 15 minutes of one of the episodes. I have questions prepared. We talk, and we discuss. A lot of times the kind of thing that happens in my book, sometimes rather than having a dinner per se, it happens after the meeting's over.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Louis Markos: People continue to talk. It... There might be some dessert, and we continue. But you People have to be feeling like they're in a safe place before they open up. You know, I can't remember where I read this either, but it's so true that the old model when I was young is get people saved and then get them to join your group. But the new model is get them to join your group, and then hopefully they'll get saved. Because a lot of people want to see the authenticity of your group before they're even gonna listen to what you have to say. So there needs to be a sense and a spirit of camaraderie, of openness, of hospitality, and a lot of people react to that. Only once they feel safe will the questions start. And again, you always have to remember that there's often a question behind the question. So you think they're interested in the philosophical problem of pain, and then you can bring in Alvin Plantinga. But more often than not, they just wanna know, "Why did this person in my family die?" They're really not interested in what's called the philosophical problem of pain. They're interested in what is often called the pastoral problem of pain. Why does God allow this? Who is God? Does God know when I'm suffering? Is God a loving God? Does He care about my strife and things? So it's just a matter... And you know, a lot of times I go around and pray for my house before people come, just go around, and I usually, recite Psalm 91, "He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High," and talk about that and pray for God's covering so that there will be, again, a sense of being safe and being heard, and in this sense, a case of being culturally heard, [laughs] right? That I know I'm different and you're different, but can we have these discussions? And by the way, I just wanna throw this in. You might be surprised to find that when you speak with Muslims, they're excited to talk about religion. They're not like Americans who think religion is taboo. They're ready to talk about God and religion, which is interesting. They don't have that taboo that we have, against religion. So sometimes it may be easier than you think. I also love working particularly with Asians, because I find when I'm talking to, Chinese Korean, the Vietnamese... We had a guy from Myanmar, that's the old Burma, over here a couple days ago. And I find that sometimes when you discuss religion with an American, even if they're a fellow Christian, you're talking and they're not actually listening to you, 'cause they've already decided they're gonna disagree with you. And so while you're talking, they're coming up with their response. I find that generally speaking, people from Asia don't do that. They listen to everything you say, but then they will formulate a question. You might think that they're just being passive, but no, they're being polite. They're listening. They're bringing it in, and it may take them a while to assemble a question or assemble an answer. So I find, working with international students is sometimes, very exciting and actually more open than Americans who too too quickly we go into combative mode sometimes instead of dialogue mode.

Sean McDowell: Louis, I suspect you have some examples of these conversations that did not go particularly well, or did not go the way you wanted them to. Can you tell us about one or, one or two of those and then, and how you deal with that?

Louis Markos: You have to be careful, especially if there's somebody in your group that, you know, has only read sort of anti-Muslim stuff online and just tries to get a zinger. And the zingers do not tend to work. You know, the zinger is that- ... I've got the knockout, the knockout punch. That's another way to call it. And sometimes if somebody does that, you have to pull it back and try to not exactly change the topic, but sort of diffuse things. It's not a simple who's right and who's wrong. Let's bring it back to... Often that means bringing it back to the text, what the Bible says. I'm actually part of a group, it doesn't meet at my house, where we talk about... We read some of the Bible and read the Quran and talk about it. It's called the Center for Muslim and Christian Studies. It comes out of Oxford actually, but it meets over here as well. And that's not generally what I'm doing. Usually I'm going specifically from the Bible. But if you bring it back to the text, and you wanna make sure you get it off of personalities and off of... What's the word I want? You wanna get away from, like giant statements, all Christians are, all Muslims are, all are. You wanna get away from that statement to talk about, the issue. It, it's good that you can reassure people that you do see where they're coming from. Either you understand why they're angry at God, or you understand that they've often heard Christians say things about Islam that's actually not true, or something about Buddhism or... So I mean, generally, the Islam thing obviously is just a little more contentious these days because of all the problems that have happened in the world. But it means pulling back, it means apologizing. You know, sorry if I sounded, too, preachy right there. [laughs] Let's pull it back and get down to brass tacks, and let's talk about what the real issue is. Let's come back and talk about the claims of Jesus rather than the claims of Christians and Muslims. Let's bring it back to this. Often it means let's get back to common ground, what we all believe about this thing, and then we can build from common ground.

Sean McDowell: I love this. I mean, you are talking my language on so many levels. Common ground, listening to people, avoiding stereotypes, having relationships. I grew up with parents who are still on crew, and like you said, there's a place for knocking on doors, and that just never was me. Maybe it's a professor thing. I'll sit down and talk to almost anybody. And I found that most people are open to spiritual conversation if we just treat them the way we'd want them to treat us in the right time, in the right place. But I'd be curious if... Have you seen any things, and you've, in some ways you've answered this, but what things just hijack and wreck a conversation? Like, have you seen conversations working, and then A, B, or C happens, and it's like, no, that just destroyed it? So you've hinted at, like, bringing in politics, like let's maybe keep that at play. There's a time and place for that. Stereotypes. But what are some of these other things that are just like a bomb in a conversation that just wrecks good momentum that's in play?

Louis Markos: Well, just especially keep out the whole question of predestination and fatalism and stuff like that.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Louis Markos: That just

Sean McDowell: Good call. [laughs]

Louis Markos: If you and a Calvinist wanna discuss that, you can discuss it all. But you know, jumping into that, just, I It just hijacks. And when you're talking about sin, okay, look, yeah, you know, I'm from, I'm from the town of Joel Osteen, and yeah, he does downplay sin a little bit, but that doesn't mean he doesn't bear fruit. And look, I mean, [laughs] we don't need to sing, Amazing Grace, how, you know, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. Okay? We can talk in different language than wretch. We can talk in language of brokenness. That doesn't mean we avoid sin, but let's not immediately jump into sin immediately and just crush everybody, and it almost always comes across as, judgmental immediately, right? Or self-righteous immediately.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Louis Markos: So that's what I mean. That doesn't... Sin will come up, and it needs to come up, but don't start with that immediately, okay? Don't start with what a wretch I am. And please stop using the phrase, "Don't you know that all your righteousness is like filthy rags?" Okay? I mean, I've used that as well. It's in the Bible. But if you read the context of the Bible, God is speaking to an apostate Israel. It's better to translate that all your self-righteousness is like filthy rags. Just enough of this because you get this idea that only a Christian can do a good work, that only a Christian can do something virtuous or self-sacrificing. So we gotta... A lot of times that just gets into your mind, depending... Now, I will tell you the greatest growth I've gone through as an apologist, and just starting with speaking with students in my, in my, office, is you have to get your way of... Away... And it's very hard. It took a long time for me to kind of get away from this.

Sean McDowell: Wow.

Louis Markos: Is you spend all this time reading, you know, Evidence That Demands a Verdict or something, right?

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Louis Markos: You you've read and you've memorized all this stuff, and what happens is that you're with a student and you're starting to talk, and then the student says a word that triggers your perfect answer for the gospel. And you jump in and you don't let them finish. And it takes really hard. It's just like, you know, Sean, you're a teacher too. You know that when you ask a question and nobody answers, 10 seconds feels like five minutes. Right? You have to be patient and let it simmer and let the person say what's really on their mind and what they're really struggling with. And again, it is a very good thing. Go through the Colson Fellows, right? Learn all the arguments. That's a great thing to do. But be careful that you're not so primed to find the little thing that allows you to jump in and give your spiel. 'Cause if you do that, you often shut down the conversation, and you might even shut down the person. So it's a matter of listening. It's also a matter of not feeling like you have to explain every step of the gospel every time. You might just come across with just something really small, just something small that our desires are actually good and created by God, but they get misdirected. But a lot of people hear us saying that desire is evil. It's not, right? When Jesus talks to the woman at the well, He's not telling her, "You are wrong to be seeking after acceptance and love and intimacy." What He's telling her is, "You're doing it in a way that is self-destructive, that is, it is actually hurting you. But the desire's not wrong. It's just a matter of which you're doing it. And it bothers me 'cause I see that you're hurting yourself. You're obviously not-" ... Getting the intimacy and affirmation that you so desperately need." So it's that kind of, it's just a matter of slowing yourself down and not stopping the person before they've really said what is really on their heart.

Sean McDowell: Though you made another significant point here in the book that I, that I found particularly helpful. It says you insist that we must not confuse the God of the Bible with our own cultural concerns and hangups. Can you give an example or two of how that confusion comes about?

Louis Markos: It is, I mean, it's just like, look, I do believe that our democracy, our republic, is great, but that's not the only way to do a government, right? And we, I mean, we, I don't, we just, even our... We often overdo... I'm glad we talk about freedom, and I always bring that up, but don't overdo individualism, right? Sometimes we push that so hard that we end up losing anybody that's from a culture that has a more communal view of things. And I actually want to learn from that culture, not just dictate to them. And we we have to, you know... I don't know. We, again, we just have such an individualistic view of things. We are so hung up with a systematic theology that cannot have any holes in it. We have to be careful with that. Yes, [laughs] theology is theology. We need to understand the Trinity and the incarnation, the atonement and the resurrection, all of those things. But sometimes we are so concerned with proving that our system is superior to any other system, that we end up losing the essence of the faith. Get away from that and focus on the essence of the faith. I mean, for instance, The Chosen has been really good at at never trying to fight whether or not Mary stayed a virgin the rest of her life, or whether Jesus had brothers and sisters. Now, to me, that's clear in the Bible. He had half brothers and sisters, but we don't need to be focusing on that when that is not the essential issue. The essential issue is that when Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was a virgin. This was a miraculous birth. But you know what? Even that is not the greatest miracle. The greatest miracle is what's called the incarnation, that in, through the virgin birth, God became man. 'Cause you do know, by the way, Muslims believe that Mary was a virgin, but they reject the incarnation. And by the way, a girl today could actually have a virgin birth by the miracle of artificial insemination. So it's not that sex was not involved that makes ... Like some kind of magic. Okay? The fact is that through the virgin birth, God became man while still staying God. These are the amazing issues that we need to get to the deeper issues and not get all hung up on things.

Sean McDowell: Louis, this is my final question for you. I'm sure Scott'll have one more, but I could imagine somebody listening to this saying, "Okay, this is all good advice, but man, first off, I'm not a PhD like Louis. He study and teaches apologetics, and there's all these landmines from using the wrong term, talking about the wrong issue. I could really mess this thing up."

Louis Markos: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: What advice would you give for somebody? Of course, I want people to pick up your book, My Apologetics Dinner Party, because you walk through what this looks like and people can see it conversationally. But what advice would you give for somebody who's like, "There's so many landmines. I'm not an expert. This just feels like it could go south." Where do they start? What do they do?

Louis Markos: First of all, it's important to realize, now, you know, I'm writing a dramatic book, right?

Sean McDowell: Of course.

Louis Markos: So I want everything united, okay? What generally happens at an international dinner party, something like this, is not generally one person speaking to everybody. You are gonna break into small groups and like, literally, you're gonna talk to the person next to you at dinner. So it's good to realize that if you're at a party like this or anything, don't feel like you have to talk to the whole group, right? You may just talk to the person next to you, and you've been talking, you've been sharing about your family or whatever it is you have in common, and then allow your love of Jesus to come out in a sharing way. It's not about arguing. It is about sharing. We all have our testimony, the most powerful thing we have. And by the way, your testimony is not just how I came to know Jesus. Your testimony is also, I am a Christian, but I went through a very difficult time in my life because of this or that, and this is how God got me through it, right? So you don't always have to have, you know, a PhD in apologetics to just share what Jesus has done in your life. And people need that nakedness. So if you're at a group like this, you don't have to address the whole group. It may just be one person or two people, and you talk like that. And that's actually the power of a dinner party is it does often break into that. And then people come together, but then after that they start having separate conversations. So think of it, I mean, if you're a girl and you've got a, an engagement ring, you wanna share it with everybody, [laughs] okay? And think about it as that kind of sharing. And also, I used to think God was like this, right? A big, bad guy in the, in the, in the, in the sky with a bat who wants to beat you down every time you stick your head up. Look at what I've learned. That, that's what you have to share. It doesn't have to be a knockout punch. It doesn't have to be an argument. Share, I mean, it Basically, you know, "Man, I was listening to, you know, this apologist on the air, and he said something that just gave me a new way of looking at things." Share that. So you're not only sharing what you learned, but how excited that made you. And it shows that you're humble, too, because I'm not presenting to you the perfect argument I came up with on my own. This is something I heard and was able to apply to my life. So that personal aspect, I think, makes it less scary.

Scott Rae: I do have one final question, Louie. For people who are sort of, they're in, they're, they love the idea that you bring out in the book, and they really wanna make this happen, what would you say is the sort of the one most important piece of advice you would leave them with for how to, how to keep these from going off the rails and be, and be a success?

Louis Markos: Let me just tell you something, okay? If you're an American and you wanna do this with international people, understand that they will be late, okay?

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Louis Markos: And you can't be... This is just cultural, right? You know, Indian Standard Time, whatever you want to say, okay? By the way, those Indians and Chinese who come late to your party never come late to work, so don't let them... They never use that as an excuse.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Louis Markos: They're better than we are at getting to, better at work on time. But they're just cultural things that are different. So you have to just get ready, 'cause you never know who's gonna come or not come, and you never know if they're gonna come late. So you have to make sure you don't show your exasperation, which would be a very American thing to do. So, and again, these things have to grow organically. And you have to know, you know, like, they're Bible studies, they always especially if they're the college-age people, don't feel like because you had a dozen people today and the next month you had four people, that obviously the Holy Spirit has abandoned you. You have to persist and just do this out of love. You can't be putting notches in your belt. It has to be a slow, organic growth. Don't be afraid to call people and remind them or text them or whatever they want. But be patient. This doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't always happen the same way. You know, we we can't hijack the Holy Spirit and make the same thing happen this month that happened last month. But just pray about this and let it grow slowly and organically by word of mouth and by friendship. And if you've just gotten to know each other and didn't mention Christianity at all, that's not a bad thing. You're building friendships. They need to know that you're authentic, and you need to care about them as individual people and not as, you know, a goal that you're trying to reach, right? It's not just about numbers. I mean, if if numbers is the only important thing, Jesus didn't have a very good record. They had 12 disciples-

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Louis Markos: ... One betrayed Him, they all ran off. And so, I mean, it it's it's not about numbers. It's about the connections you make with individual human beings.

Scott Rae: I say that's a pretty good place to stop.

Sean McDowell: You know it.

Scott Rae: And that's a mic drop moment. So Louie, thank you so much for, your time today. I wanna commend your book to our listeners. It's called My Apologetics Dinner Party, which it's a great read. It's a lot of fun. And I can just... You can, you can... It's not hard to imagine yourself in the middle of these, of dialogues like this with people who are seeking, to know a little bit more about Christian faith.

Louis Markos: I forgot to mention that when they did the audiobook, I asked them three times, "Please get me someone who can do voices." So he kept turning it back. So if you get the audiobook, this guy does different voices, different accents, and it really brings it

Sean McDowell: Oh, that's cool.

Scott Rae: How fun.

Louis Markos: Yes, really brings it to life in a dramatic way. He's pretty good. He does all different accents and all different voices. And so, again, 'cause you It is, it is a drama, and it's it's acted out, so it's kind of fun.

Scott Rae: Yeah. No, it's it's great stuff. And I think, yeah, I think our listeners, our listeners will really enjoy the book. And hopefully this will help bring about more of these spiritual conversations that don't, that don't have pressure attached to them to, as you, as you say, always be closing.

Louis Markos: And then let me just tell you this really quickly, 'cause I know we're out of time. But if you study this, Lee Strobel wrote a new book about the supernatural. It, a very large majority of Muslims come to faith after Christ appears to them-

Scott Rae: Right

Louis Markos: ... In a vision. But very important, almost never does that person become a believer just because of the vision.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Louis Markos: The vision sends them to a Christian. Just like, I don't think Paul got everything right until Ananias prayed, you know, and he, and he got his sight back and all. So what I'm saying is you just have to have real friendships so that person knows that you're safe to go to if Christ has just appeared to them in a dream. So a lot of times we're just there. And please remember, if you... Billy Graham said this again and again. Everybody has this idea that people came off the street to a Billy Graham revival and from square zero accept Christ. Billy Graham said almost everybody that came forward at his reaping service was brought forward by friends, family members-

Scott Rae: Right

Louis Markos: ... Or parishioners, right? So we are part of a chain. We may not do the reaping. Our job may be to plant the seed, to water the seed, whatever it is, but ultimately the reaping is done by the Holy Spirit. So again, we're all part of that chain, and it's important what every one of us does.

Scott Rae: Yeah. Amen. That's great stuff, and I think a great, a great final word to leave our listeners with. So really grateful for your time and for the book. Thanks so much for being with us.

Louis Markos: Hey, thanks for having me on, gentlemen. Happy summer.

Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture. It's brought to you from Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. We've got master's and bachelor's programs in apologetics, in philosophy, in spiritual formation, Bible theology, marriage and family therapy, a whole lot of other things, too. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you want to submit comments to us or ask questions, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app, please share it with a friend, and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, remember, think biblically about everything. [outro music]