Michael Heiser on Angels and Demons

Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] Has the church largely misunderstood the nature and origin of angels and demons? Are there other heavenly beings that are not angelic or demonic? And if so, where do they come from and what do they do? Are demons really the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim as discussed in Genesis 6 and the Book of Enoch? Back in studio and joining me today because of popular demand to talk about these issues and the supernatural realm is Dr. Joel Mudamali, author of The Unseen Battle. Joel, you are both a friend and protege of the late Dr. Michael Heiser, whose work sparked interest in the origin and nature of demons, angels, and the unseen realm. I have wanted to have this conversation for a long time. Thanks for flying back to do it.

Joel Muddamalle: Absolutely, Sean. It's such a honor for me to be with you. This is the second time I'm in studio.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Joel Muddamalle: It feels like the two-peat.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: In honor of Michael Jordan as the greatest of all time. You know, we'll be looking forward to the three-peat at some point, but this is a really great opportunity. I'm excited.

Sean McDowell: I love it. So we're doing a two-part series.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: First one on angels and demons.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And then we're gonna talk about the Book of Enoch.

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And then we're gonna go live on a Talbot Tuesday-

Joel Muddamalle: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... And take people's questions and challenges. So write in question, people watching, people listening. We'll come back and tackle that. We'll release that date coming up. But before we dive into an analysis of Michael Heiser's views on angels and your take on it, you worked closely with him and his scholarship and build on many of his ideas. Why do you think he's had such a profound impact on how evangelicals think about the unseen realm? And maybe tell us a little bit about your relationship with him.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I mean, I'll start with my relationship with Mike. Mike and I worked together at Logos Bible Software years and years ago. Mike was the scholar-in-residence. I came on to help bring oversight to a new project they started called the Faithlife Study Bible. In the last episode that I was with you, we kinda talked a little bit about my origin story and kind of this-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... Climactic moment I had, when I read his essay on Psalm 82 and really just finishing seminary, feel... I mean, honestly, I think I was just a punk, arrogant, seminary, post-seminary kid that thought he knew it all and just said, "This guy got it wrong. Like, what? Like, how could he possibly believe that the sons of God are spiritual beings and not human rulers?" And, so I walked into his office and challenged [laughs] challenged him on his take, and it started a conversation, and it was really exciting. And so I knew Mike as a friend, for many years. I played in his fantasy football league. I'm not sure if I shared this the last time.

Sean McDowell: I don't know that you did.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. Mike was a details guy. It was the hardest league I've ever played in in my entire life. And, I just... The thing I loved about Mike was his ability to think deeply about the biblical text- ... To ask serious questions about the Bible, and to push us beyond probably our comfort zone in some areas, but then also his, like, amazing ability to switch from that into a discussion on the Green Bay Packers [laughs] and what he thought was right about the team or wrong and just his love for sports and-

Sean McDowell: That's fun

Joel Muddamalle: ... And he was both a high-level scholar but also just an amazing husband and father and I miss him. I miss him dearly.

Sean McDowell: I bet you do.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Yeah. Now, your book, Unseen Battle, which we'll get to, really takes a lot of what he did in terms of waking up the church in many ways to the reality of the biblical worldview, the supernatural component that's often been overlooked, and how we fight and engage in spiritual warfare today. We're gonna get to that, but let's start with his view on angels.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So I had a chance to interview Mike, and we talked mostly about demons, a little about angels, and to this day, it's one of the most viewed interviews I've ever done-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... 'cause he's just so interesting and gracious and thoughtful. But let's kinda start with what might be called the traditional view. When most Christians think about angels, what picture comes to mind? What's the traditional view held in the church?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the church. My grandparents- ... Were missionaries in India, and so I've always had, kind of the conception of a spiritual realm around me, Jesus, the Kingdom of God, and spiritual beings. And usually, the language isn't spiritual beings.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Joel Muddamalle: The language is angels. And it becomes this catch-all term for all spiritual beings, and I know we're gonna get into the details on it. One of the things that Mike presented to us is the idea that what we call as angels, and so, like, how would we think, of angels? I think a lot of it has been church tradition that has been passed on to us. Vacation Bible school [laughs] I think is a huge part for people that've grown up in the church tradition, and also not forgetting that you've got medieval history and imagery and a conceptualization of the biblical text that had kind of a, an image of its own. And so today, when you think of angels, at least what I think of, is I think of typically, like, a human-like figure that is gorgeous, like, handsome, maybe Brad Pitt-looking. I don't know. I'm dating myself, there. And then, but also wings. With wings and probably armor and, in flight, in activity, a warrior-looking being. And so that's probably the primary image that we have ... Angelic beings or angels. And one of the things that Mike did for us is to say, "Okay, but does the biblical text itself portray angels," quote-unquote, "in that fashion?" You know? So just a an interesting, exercise for somebody to do. Run through your, Hebrew Bible, you know? And, you could use a tool like Logos Bible Software. We're talking about Logos-

Sean McDowell: Let's go. Let's go

Joel Muddamalle: ... Recently. Logos is one of my favorite... I use it all the time. So you could literally do a biblical word study and look at, you know, the English term, or the Hebrew term mal'ak or malachim, which is messenger- ... And identify when these messengers are used or described in the biblical text, and try to identify when they're described with wings. Just do that.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: You might be surprised with what you find. And I know I'm kind of teasing out a bunch of different areas that we're-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... Going to go to. But that I would summarize as the perspective that largely leads evangelical Christian believers on who angels are. They are winged beings, spiritual beings. They do the work of God, and they have a counter, a counter and opposite to them, and we would call those demons.

Sean McDowell: Hm. It's amazing to think about how much our views of angels and other theology is informed by popular culture and not by Scripture.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Now, this would take us aside, but there's a song in the early '80s by Amy Grant about angels watching over us, and guardian angels-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Rooted in Acts 12.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Well, Acts 12 does not-

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Teach what's presented in that song.

Joel Muddamalle: Right.

Sean McDowell: And I love Amy Grant. No criticism here, but I kinda grew up hearing that song-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Loving it, and it informed the way I thought about angels.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: The Bible doesn't teach that.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Not to mention, James was martyred in the same passage, so what about his guardian angel?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Point being, what Heiser did and what you do is, let's go to the text.

Joel Muddamalle: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Let's look at the original worldview, the original language, and see what it teaches about angels.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And we might be surprised. So how did he challenge the traditional understanding of the angelic realm?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. One of them is, I think he... I don't think. I know. He pushed us from a reductionistic view of spiritual beings. So instead of saying-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Joel Muddamalle: ... You have this term, angels, as a catch-all term for all spiritual beings, and you push 'em into, a box to make it nice and neat for us, what Mike said was, "Hey, let's think about angels. I'm gonna use that term, and then I'm gonna start to start shifting us into spiritual beings, like the language of spiritual beings. So let's think about spiritual beings, and let's think about them in these categories. One, let's think about them ontologically.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Joel Muddamalle: What are they in nature, right? And then secondarily, what is their hierarchy? What kind of, function, do they have? And then third, like what do they actually do? What is the thing they do? So the hierarchy one is more title, and hierarchy in the third one is function. Like what do they actually, accomplish? And you'll notice that in the Bible, you have, terms that are used for the nature of these spiritual beings, and we can get into detail about that. You've got, descriptions of what they

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... How they function. Angels are messengers. They're actually a subcategory of the other category which we talked about, which is their hierarchy. How do they relate in relationship with other spiritual beings that are presented to us? We could probably do a hit list, right, of what those spiritual beings are. So we could say, okay, you've got right off the bat, get in the Garden of Eden, the presence of cherubim as the guardian, spiritual beings that are in Eden to protect people from coming back in, right?

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Joel Muddamalle: They're guarding with a, with a flaming sword. You have Isaiah 6, and you have this, enigmatic scene of the seraphim,

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... That are chanting, "Holy holy is the Lord," with six wings. Now interesting-

Sean McDowell: They do have wings. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Seraphim have wings, right? And cherubim have wings, and actually there's a context that they're connected to, which is a Mesopotamian, Egyptian-

Sean McDowell: Hm

Joel Muddamalle: ... And Acadian context as well. And then you also have, angels, messengers that are presented. I think of Jacob's ladder, the dream that Jacob has with this ladder with these, spiritual beings that are going up and down this ladder, which points to their activity. And then you have in Daniel 8, 9, and 10, the presence of archangels. [laughs] You have the presence of a kind of spiritual being that seems to have status, in a kind of hierarchy, and then also a particular function as a protector of a people, a remnant, we might say, that are in captivity in, Assyria, in the, you know, in the Daniel epic. And then, you also have the phrase, the Sons of God that we see in Genesis 6 and Deuteronomy 32:8-9. So, like within just a couple minutes, Sean, like we have moved past a reductionistic, "Well, they're angels. Angels. They have wings, and they do God's work," to, "Wait a minute. What is distinct about sons of God?

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Joel Muddamalle: What is distinct about archangels? What is distinct about seraphim and cherubim? What is their function? What is their role? What do we know about them ontologically in terms of their essence?" And I think this is one of the things that Mike did for us, is he pushed us beyond a reductionistic view of these spiritual beings. And, he said, "Wait a minute. The Bible gives us more information, more data about what these beings are, how they relate to other spiritual beings and to humanity, and then also their function, their role in and throughout the Earth."

Sean McDowell: And we started by saying Heiser pushed us beyond reductionism.

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: I thought you were gonna say the reductionism of our culture that seeped into the Church-

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... That takes spiritual things and explains it away naturally-

Joel Muddamalle: Naturalistically

Sean McDowell: ... Non-spiritually.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: He pushed profoundly against that.

Joel Muddamalle: Yep.

Sean McDowell: But more specifically when it comes to angels, the reductionism is simply saying, "Well, whatever spirit beings these are, they're angels, and they have the same being. They have the same broad call, but maybe one guards over here. Maybe one chants, 'Holy, holy is the Lord.' Maybe one delivers a message."

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And Heiser's like, "Time out. Maybe we need to take a second look at this and not reduce all of these spirit beings down to what we consider angels. We might be missing something more that's going on."

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, and I think there's an impulse. I think the impulse, I wanna honor that 'cause I wanna be careful that we don't do the polarization, that we just jump from one extreme to another extreme. And I think the impulse is, don't get distracted. Don't become obsessive about these angelic beings and forget or not give right attribution and value and affection and attention- ... To Jesus and to the Kingdom of God. Like, I think those are good impulses. However, in general, I think a fear hermeneutic, a methodology of biblical reading that is motivated by fear- ... Is always gonna be disastrous for us in the long run, you know? And so let's push against a fear hermeneutic and let's just say, "What does the Bible say about these spiritual beings? How does the Bible present them? What can we know? What can we not know?" And maybe let's have a little bit of fun [laughs] and say, "Where is some area of educated speculation that we might be able to consider?" And I know in another episode we're gonna talk about the Book of Enoch and-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Joel Muddamalle: ... Second Temple literature. In fact, we're not the first to the party. [laughs] This was taking place in Second Temple literature- ... Consistently, and that's part of the value of that, content.

Sean McDowell: So when I first read Heiser's book Angels, one of the points that he made that I kinda had to pause on and go, "Okay, wait a minute. Am I [laughs] completely missing something here in terms of angels?" is he distinguishes between, quote, "angel as a job description"-

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And the broader category of spiritual beings.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So you made a point earlier about ontology, which is being, like what is the nature of an angel?

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Are they physical? Are they spiritual? Are they finite? Are they infinite? We tend to think of angel in terms of an ontological term-

Joel Muddamalle: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Solely and primarily.

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: He's saying it's more of a job description within-

Joel Muddamalle: It's a title

Sean McDowell: ... A broader category, a title of spirit beings. Explain that, break it down. Maybe explain why that distinction is important.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I think the, once again, the distinction is important because it helps us to see there's a bigger conversation at play, and the bigger conversation is that God is a king, and ... Being a king, he's got a council, and there's different council members. We see this in Psalm 82. We see this, in the opening scenes of Job 1 and Job 2, with the sons of God, and you've got the ha-satan who shows up. This is honestly ... Dovetail into the idea of the Satan figure in Job. Again, one of those traditional stories. I mean, I grew up always just believing, like, oh, it's Satan.

Sean McDowell: For sure.

Joel Muddamalle: Right? It's like, it's the figure that shows up in the New Testament-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... And tempts Jesus in the desert. Like, same being, same... You know? But you get into the Hebrew grammar and you go, "Wait a minute. There's an article in front of the satan," so it's ha-satan. And based off of Hebrew grammar, when you find an article in front, of that name, that this is actually not a personal name, but it's actually a title of a position. And so, in some of your Bible translations, you'll notice in Job 1 and 2, when the ha-satan shows up, the- ... The translators use the phrase accuser. There it's almost like a legal term that's being used of a person who has a task of, searching and looking and bringing accusation against someone or something. And so you go, "Okay, so that's there," and then you have angels as messengers. And so yeah, I think that the reason why it's important is to recognize that God chooses as king, and having a council, God chooses to work through his creation. He gives task and responsibility and vocation to both his spiritual beings and his earthly human family. So we live in a culture, Sean, I think, that wants to create, demarcation. It's like, let's put in this category all things that are spiritual, but then in this category we'll put all things that are earthly, and they can live nice and neat in their own little compartments, right? The biblical text doesn't do that, doesn't feel a need to do that. The biblical text, the scriptures from Genesis all the way through Revelation, actually gives us indication that we're talking about a cosmic world where the heavens and Earth interconnect. There's a connection point. Jesus is, in fact, that bridge of that, of that connection point in the incarnation. And so the reason why we ought to care about this specific conversation is, in my view, it's an indication of the nature of who God is and how- ... How God chooses to work in and through his creation. And if this is true about these spiritual beings, what does that tell us about our earthly human vocation as well? And so I don't want us to get too obsessed with it and try to figure out, like, a taxonomy of spiritual beings. And I know that in some circles that's kind of a really big deal, trying to figure out the names and the titles. It's almost, like, this militaristic, who's at the lowest rung and who's at the highest rung. I think there's some general taxonomy that we can identify from the data that the Bible gives us.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: But that's not the point. I think the point is to say, God has a council. He's a king, and he chooses to work through these spiritual beings, and they have purpose. They have vocation. Angels, mala- mal'akh, malakim, have a particular function, and the particular function is to be the messenger of God, to carry his decree in and throughout the world and to humans.

Sean McDowell: Of course, right now people have questions, going, "Wait a minute. Why would God need a divine council?"

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And part of the answer is he doesn't need a divine council. He doesn't need us. But does Psalm-

Joel Muddamalle: That's the point [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... 82, does Deuteronomy 32, two passages in Daniel, et cetera, teach that God has a divine council? I think that it does. Now, there's probably two sets of questions right now. There's people that are new to this, going, "Wait a minute. Who's this Heiser guy?"

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: "Wood and Molly, what is happening?" Their minds are already blown.

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Two things. Number one, go back and watch our first interview, where we methodically walk through what's going on, the scriptural basis for this. Second, write your questions in, 'cause you're coming to come back for Q&A.

Joel Muddamalle: Yep.

Sean McDowell: There's others that are like Heiser aficionados, going, "I've got a nuanced question for you."

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Write that one in and we will address that as well when we come back and do a live, Q&A on a Talbot Tuesday. All right. So before we get to demons, maybe you could tell us, Joel, where you think Heiser pushed the conversation about angels in the right direction- Where do you think his conclusions might need refinement, if at all?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And then maybe how does this play into your project in The Unseen Battle?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So once again, I think the right direction is precision. It's being precise with our language, being precise-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Joel Muddamalle: ... With what the Bible says. It's trying to create some boundaries for us. So like, you know, back to the idea of the different terminology for these spiritual beings, one that is often overlooked, which I think is kind of a big deal, especially for our next episode when we talk about, the Enochic tradition-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... Is this term of the watchers, you know? And so you hear the term the watchers, and in our, in our brain, we can tend to think, "Well, that's a, that's a Second Temple literature thing. That's just an Enochic thing." But actually, that term shows up in Daniel 4:13. [laughs] In Daniel 4, three times, the Aramaic term, shows up, which is translated as watcher. And so... And it's in the context of a heavenly vision, of a spiritual being that comes down. And so you go, "Wait a minute. You've got that." You've got, another term, Saba or Sabaoth, which is a phrase to describe the heavenly host or the heavenly ones. This is actually the phrase that's used in 1 Kings 22:19, which is the scene where, Micaiah has this throne room vision. You know? And there are a plethora of holy ones, Sabaoth, that are in the presence of the king. I love this term because that term of holy ones, I think works really well to help us understand the cosmic implications of Psalm 46 and elsewhere, where Yahweh is described as the Lord of Hosts.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Joel Muddamalle: So again, we... And I prefer that terminology. I think some English translations go for Lord of Armies. I prefer Lord of Hosts- ... Primarily because it is re-associating us with the cosmic reality of Yahweh. We think Lord of Armies, and it's just we're products of our environment, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, general, earthly armies. There's a battle." but I think of that scene with Elijah and his servant, you know? And the servant's, like, freaking out. Like, "Oh my gosh, we're about to get destroyed." And there's a part like, "Lord, just will you show, will you show him?"

Sean McDowell: It's amazing.

Joel Muddamalle: And he opens his eyes, and it's like, "Oh my gosh, there's a heavenly host, a that are plethora around us to protect us." And oh, that's who Yahweh is. [laughs] Yahweh is the king of the heavenly host. The same thing with cherubim and seraphim. We touched on it, just a little bit, but, you know, these are terms to describe, spiritual beings tasked to protect sacred space. These are throne room guardian beings, you know? And actually, there's imagery and iconography of them in, Mesopotamian context, in Akkadian context, and in Egyptian context as well. And so there we see, the, their function and their role in guarding sacred space. The cherubim are engraved in the temple and on the Ark of the Covenant. I mean, the, this is imagery that is meant to convey something of the otherness and the holiness of God, in the function of these spiritual beings. And so, I think that what Mike did for us, again, is push us in a direction so we can- ... See these spiritual beings and their function, not to be enamored by them and to obsess about them, but to see them rightly in their role and vocation as part of the counsel of God. Where I think that we could use some refinement, and this is part of my goal. This is part of what I want to do with The Unseen Battle. And, I'm a biblical theology guy, so I love reading the Bible as one cohesive story.

Sean McDowell: And Heiser was specifically an Old Testament scholar.

Joel Muddamalle: He was a Semitic languages-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... Hebrew scholar.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: Brilliant in that space. The majority of our disagreements and discussions would be methodological in nature. Where I have no problem, I think we talked about this in the previous episode, and I think people are still like, "Wait a minute. What, like, how can you, like, think that?" after all of this Hasatan stuff and saying, well, actually that's probably, like, the technical understanding is not, to see in that being, Satan, I as a biblical theology guy go, "Wait a minute. The function [laughs] that we have there there, we have the whole Bible in front of us." So from a biblical theological standpoint, I see it fine saying I can draw out something about this accuser that seems to love his job a little bit too much- ... To pick a fight consistently and say there's something about that that is also true of this enemy who hates us and hates God and hates His children. And so I think that one of the areas that I would love for us to see more refinement around is the interconnection between the spiritual beings of the Hebrew Bible and how they relate in the New Testament- ... And understanding them in their New Testament context without discounting the Hebrew Bible in how they're understood. I have a strong suspicion... I don't have a strong suspicion. I know. This was-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: ... Mike's goal.

Sean McDowell: Oh, interesting.

Joel Muddamalle: Part of what I thought, I know the next 10 to 15 years was- ... Gonna be for him was I've done all this work in the Mesopotamian, Akkadian, ancient Near Eastern context of the Hebrew Bible. Now let's jump into the New Testament context, particularly Paul's language of powers, principalities, and authorities, which is the topic that I essentially wrote my dissertation on. And so that is the area that I wanna focus and advance on, to give precision to the language of the New Testament on these terms, where we recognize that none of this is happening in isolation. Writing isn't happening in isolation.

Sean McDowell: That's good. Students, if you are listening, now that I've done a PhD, oftentimes in the back of my mind I'm like, "That's a dissertation topic."

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: That's... Not that I wanna do it.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: I'll leave that to other prospective students. But it sounds like you're saying there's a lot of work where people can take what Heiser's done, bring it into the New Testament, see how it applies to Ephesians, Colossians, et cetera. Love that. Okay, so before we move on to demons, just a question about, like, language.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So should we use the term angels?

Joel Muddamalle: No.

Sean McDowell: Should we just say seraphim, cherubim? Like, just help us 'cause language Part of, we just use angel for so many different terms-

Joel Muddamalle: I know

Sean McDowell: ... That in our mind-

Joel Muddamalle: I know

Sean McDowell: ... It ties them together. So what, how should we speak about these spirit beings?

Joel Muddamalle: There was a poet once that I heard that said, "The words we use build the worlds that we inhabit."

Sean McDowell: That's totally true.

Joel Muddamalle: Right? And, my buddy Jim Cress, I get to do a podcast called Therapy and Theology. It's me, Jim Cress, who's a therapist.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: I'm the theology guy, and then Lisa TerKeurst, who's my boss. She's a brilliant, author and Bible teacher. And ... Jim says it this way, that our words frame our reality, you know? So I think this is an interesting question, and one I'm a, I'm a bit passionate about, and I would say when you know better, we should do better. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Right. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Right? And so I want to be more precise with my language.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Joel Muddamalle: And I find myself, at times, slipping to just saying angels, 'cause it's just easier, you know? But I'm trying to train my mind- ... To say spiritual beings, unless I'm talking about actual messengers in the Hebrew Bible. The angels, the messengers that are associated with Abraham when, you know, they come with Lot, when they're delivering a message and rescuing them out, like those are instances-

Sean McDowell: Or the angel Gabriel. I know we're in the New Testament for that specific term-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... You'd use it.

Joel Muddamalle: Exactly.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Joel Muddamalle: Exactly. So I wanna, I wanna associate it in, ... Those terms. And I think from an apologetics standpoint, Sean, I know you're the, you're the apologetics-

Sean McDowell: Bring it

Joel Muddamalle: ... OG here, is what an incredible opportunity to have conversation with people, right? When somebody says angel, and you can say, "Hey, have you ever thought, have you ever considered that the way the Hebrew Bible uses the term angel is actually as a job description, as a title, not an entelechy?" And they're like, "Wait, what? I've been to church my whole life. I never..." And then you can point them to the text. And so I think this is an opportunity- ... Not for pride and for you to be like, "Look what I learned. Like I'm crushing it, with my, with my Biblical theology and exegesis," but it's an opportunity to say, "We care deeply about the Bible. And by the way, there's a world that cares about this." I mean, at the time of this filming right now, Steven Spielberg's Disclosure Day has made, like, such big, massive news, you know? And there's this, like, highlight reels of, "This is gonna, shake the Christian faith." And I did a little response thing on my, on my Instagram, and I was like, "No, it won't." [laughs] Like if you read the Bible on its own terms, this will not shake your faith. You will actually have... We, as Christians, have the most proficient language to describe the indescribable things in reality, and we ought to leverage that and use it and be intentional about it as an apologetic and as a way to, invite people into this cosmic story that we all participate in.

Sean McDowell: I love that. One, questions, and second, leaning in to make people interested, like, "Wait a minute. Have you thought about what an angel actually is biblically?" Love that. Now, I know a lot of people are going, "Okay, angels, interesting, but we wanna hear-"

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: "... About demons." It's just the way that it goes.

Joel Muddamalle: I think Mike-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: ... Mike had a really fun interview 'cause they're asked, like in his book, in the beginning, he's like, "This book..." This is like so Mike. "This book is about angels. If you're looking for content on demons, you're not finding it here. [laughs] Not finding it here."

Sean McDowell: Oh, I forgot he started that way.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah he starts on, 'cause he's like-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Joel Muddamalle: ... "That's not the point." And

Sean McDowell: That's right

Joel Muddamalle: ... In an interview I listened to a while ago- ... He said something like, "How come the bad guys always get all the, like the fanfare?" Like, you know, like, my family was just, I don't know if I'm supposed to say this on here. This, you can cut this if you need to. Was at Disney. People have, you know, things at Disney.

Sean McDowell: I don't care. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Okay, my family was just at Disney, and we, you know, had this whole thing, and I was so, fascinated by the fact that there's T-shirts for the villains. Like, there's a whole thing-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... Where you can have, like, the T-shirts for the villains and you can be on the villain team or whatever, and our society is fascinated by that. So I kinda love that Mike was pushing back, like, "Man, let the heroes, let them get a little bit of fanfare, like the good guys, you know?" they should have a little bit of opportunity to get to know who they are and what they do and how they belong, where they belong in the cosmic storyline.

Sean McDowell: Well, fair enough. I love that. But people still got T-shirts of the villains-

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... And so we're gonna, we're gonna dive in. That's fun. I'm leaving that in there for sure.

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: My audience will not lose their mind that you took your family to Disney. It's not far from here at all. Fun, even though we take issue with some things Disney. Separate podcast.

Joel Muddamalle: That's right. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: All right. So let's shift. When Christians hear the word demon, most assume we know what the Bible teaches.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But like with angels, there's a much bigger clarifying backstory.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Let's start with what the traditional understanding has been.

Joel Muddamalle: I mean, I think the traditional understanding is very similar to the angel's understanding. There is medieval imagery. There is... There are fascinating TV shows right now even.

Sean McDowell: There are.

Joel Muddamalle: And I actually think there's one TV show that probably depicts it way better than some of our passed down tradition, and part of the passed down tradition is, you've got demons who are these, spirit beings, and you've got Lucifer, Satan, with horns and a tail and the pitchfork that's probably, like, dramatized a bit. They're the opposite of angels. And yeah, there's just one term to describe their work. They hate God, and they hate His people, and it's kind of the imagery of the demon on one shoulder and the angel on the other-

Sean McDowell: Right

Joel Muddamalle: ... And they're enticing you. And I think part of that is actually kind of helpful to understand what they're trying to ... What their aim and their ambition is. And once again, it's a, it's a bit flat. Like, oh, yeah, demons. It's just one category of beings, and they're evil, and they hate God, and they hate His people, and they are here to deceive us and, to distract us.

Sean McDowell: And they're fallen angels, of course-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Is the key picture about where they come from. Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28. Now, Heiser has a different understanding of this. So we're gonna get into some of the particulars related to, like, Genesis chapter 6, the Nephilim. But maybe kinda broadly lay out for us how his understanding differs and what convinced him that the traditional picture was incomplete.

Joel Muddamalle: Well, I think most of what convinced him the traditional picture is incomplete is a, I wanna be careful that I'm not using harsh language, but this is the language that comes to my mind, is it's a failure to read the Bible on its own terms. And so for instance, you've got, a passage like Deuteronomy 32:17. I'm gonna go there just so that, I've got it up, for me. In Deuteronomy 32:17, you have, the presence of a Hebrew term, which is, Shedim. And Shedim is a categorical term, that is used of, spiritual beings that are evil and malevolent. They they are, opposed to God. Now, what you said, John, is interesting 'cause again, you think fallen angels, and there is a category of spiritual beings that are evil, that are fallen angels. The New Testament particularly, when it uses the English term demons, when we see that-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... It's being sourced from a different storyline. And so this is where we probably need to do just a little bit of understanding of the different figures and their roles. And actually, what we just did with angels, and spiritual beings is gonna help us because there we talked about the sons of God. These Genesis 6 beings that are categorically different from messengers or seraphim or cherubim. These sons of God of Genesis 6, when you read that, it's like the precursor to the flood story. They see the daughters of man.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle: They desire the daughters of man, and they take the daughters of man for themselves. And right after that it says, "And these were the days when the Nephilim were on the earth," before the flood and after the flood, which already creates all kinds of interpretive chaos for us to try to figure out how could the Nephilim be there? And we can tackle that in either-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... The Enoch episode or later.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: But look at this. Deuteronomy 32:17, and it's talking about these foreign gods that anger them with their detestable idols. Verse 17 says this, "They'd sacrificed to false gods, which are not God, to gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your ancestors did not fear." And, when you read that, I actually was reading from NIV. I'm gonna switch over to ESV. And the Bible reading pro tip, when you're reading a passage of scripture, it's always kind of fun to have multiple translations out. And when you see different English words there, that's an indication that the translators are trying to make sense of a difficult Hebrew translation or a Greek translation in the New Testament, and that's probably a place for you to dig a little bit deeper. So Deuteronomy 32:17.

Sean McDowell: Nice.

Joel Muddamalle: "They sacrificed to demons that were not God." But in NIV it said gods, right? So to false gods. "They sacrificed to demons that were not God, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded." And so the sons of God of Genesis 6 are a distinct category of spiritual beings.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle: We're gonna get into this in the Enoch episode. Just, I know, like it's all inter-

Sean McDowell: Hang tight. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Hang tight.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Joel Muddamalle: We're gonna get to what happens, how they get kicked out, how they get thrown into Tartarus.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Joel Muddamalle: You're like, "What is going on?" Jude and Peter actually reflect [laughs] on all of this.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: They have a shared tradition from where they're pulling from. But then you get to Deuteronomy 32:8 and 9. And so in Deuteronomy 32:8 and 9 it says, "When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He divided mankind, He fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the Lord's portion is His people, Jacob His allotted heritage." So where do we get the gods of the nations from? You get the gods of the nations from this concept that Mike refers to as the Deuteronomy 32 worldview. Because, where was it when the nations were first divided? Genesis 11. Once again, go to our first episode where we walk through the three rebellions. Genesis 11 and 12 sets the stage for the diversification of humanity to the nations, being divided. But then the question is, like, how come throughout the entire Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, from here on out, it's like, "Beware of the false gods. Don't follow after them. Don't bend knee to them. Israel, be a holy and separate people." you know, you're to be, kadosh. You're supposed to be, holy, which isn't about actual moral purity, per se, as it is about being a people set apart, being a reflection of the holiness of God. And in that, you go down to Deuteronomy 32:17 and go, "Wait, who, are these beings? What are they doing?" In Deuteronomy 32:17, they're being cast as evil because they have elicited the worship of the nations, and in so doing, they go into rebellion. And so when we think about the demons of the Old Testament-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... Again, our words frame our reality. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Joel Muddamalle: So I want us to think about the demons of the Old Testament as the false gods of the nations. And when I say false gods, I'm not talking about non-existence. I'm talking about their comparability to Yahweh. They are not Yahweh. They never could be Yahweh. They're created beings. So there is a category which are the false gods of the nations. And then there's also this issue with the Nephilim and the-

Sean McDowell: Hey, can we halt?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah Go ahead.

Sean McDowell: Can we halt on the Nephilim for a second?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Okay. So you're making a distinction between the Old Testament sons of God, these false gods-

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And what we would consider and what we see as demons in the New Testament that, like, possess people And wreck their bodies-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, the Gospels-

Sean McDowell: Try to kill them

Joel Muddamalle: ... Exorcisms, Legion

Sean McDowell: Take over them. You're making a

Joel Muddamalle: Distinction

Sean McDowell: ... Between those two.

Joel Muddamalle: That's right.

Sean McDowell: A key distinction.

Joel Muddamalle: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Joel Muddamalle: Because Paul has different terminology in Greek, in the Greek language that describes the demons of the Old Testament or the false gods of the nations of the Old Testament. And, it's not daimonizomai. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Joel Muddamalle: It's not, it's not demonization. Like it's, it, there's a different way that he describes them. He uses the... And this is all in The Unseen Battle, in the second half of the book when I get into the New Testament.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle: It's the chapter on being stripped, disarmed, and defeated. It's the powers, principalities, and authorities, and it's Colossians 1, it's Ephesians 6. And so looking at Pauline terminology for, these demonic entities, and there's a context that Paul is drawing from, and he's drawing from an Old Testament understanding of the sons of God. When you get into the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and you get to demon exorcisms there, what in English are demons are there, are categorically distinct and different from powers, principalities, and authorities, and the sons of God of the Old Testament.

Sean McDowell: That's a really important distinction, because if the Old Testament translates like you said, they sacrifice to demons, we think these beings in the New Testament that are possessing people, and you're saying no, these are evil

Joel Muddamalle: Spirits

Sean McDowell: ... Beings-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That reign over certain nations, have certain authority potentially. We covered a lot of that beforehand. Not the kind of beings that come down and possess us we need to be exercised from.

Joel Muddamalle: Right.

Sean McDowell: So this is where terminology-

Joel Muddamalle: Matters

Sean McDowell: ... And you said this clarification-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Is important. Okay. So you are moving towards Genesis

Joel Muddamalle: 6

Sean McDowell: ... And Enoch. Now I don't want... We're gonna do a full, like, hour-plus breaking this down.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay.

Sean McDowell: But maybe just frame how it shapes our conversation here on demons.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. So I'll probably say everything that's gonna stress people out and frustrates them. And-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: ... Before you leave a negative comment and you get upset or whatever else, follow along for the next episode for the full, the context of it. And then after that, feel free to leave a critique.

Sean McDowell: But leave your questions.

Joel Muddamalle: Leave your questions-

Sean McDowell: Because we're gonna do We will follow up after both these episodes, and you can defend yourselves. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: That's right. That's right. You know, in Genesis 6, you've got the sons of God-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... And the daughters of man. And I'm gonna save, I'm gonna presume for this discussion, a supernatural reading of the sons of God. There are other ways to read it, and I wanna acknowledge that, and there is legitimate rationale for why other scholars, Biblical theologians and scholars, would read it, different. In the famous words of, Dr. Tom Schreiner in the introduction to his book, or the book on, the different views of women in ministry, Tom said, you know, "I'm a better scholar for, the writing of, you know, the, my colleagues, in this, in this book, and yet I'm still unconvinced." [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Oh, I love it.

Joel Muddamalle: So... Yeah. I just love that. You know, it's like, hey, I wanna be a better-

Sean McDowell: That's well said

Joel Muddamalle: ... Bible teacher. I wanna be a better scholar and theologian. And so I wanna be aware of those things. I wanna take them seriously.

Sean McDowell: But really quickly, the first three centuries in the Church were pretty much-

Joel Muddamalle: Supernatural reading

Sean McDowell: ... Supernatural understanding.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, you don't get, you don't get into a human reading until Augustine and

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... Jos Africanus, which, you know, there's all kinds of things that we can talk about there. The issue is with these, the figure of the Nephilim. Who are the Nephilim? And so if we take a supernatural reading-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... And I understand this is gonna feel a bit like, wait a minute, are we listening to Greek mythology right now? My question to you is, where do you think the Greek mythology got their content from, you know? And so you've got the hybrid children of, spiritual beings, the sons of God, and human women, and the offspring are these Nephilim. There's a whole issue with Nephilim and the linguistic case for what does the word mean, how is it translated. It's translated in the Septuagint, the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek as gigas, which means giants. The Hebrew, some scholars would say that it comes from the Hebrew word naphal, which means fallen or fallen ones. Is... And you could probably make a conceptual argument for that, where you have these big giants and when they fall they probably make a big old splash, you know? Something like that. Mike had a whole different, connection point to it, and quite frankly I'm not smart enough to even go into- ... The Akkadian and the Hebrew and the Ugrit, like, all that he does there. This is one of those things that I, follow where Mike goes, and at the end of it I go, "That's a lot of linguistic gymnastics to get to [laughs] to get to a conclusion." This is where I would probably disagree. Not probably, I do disagree with him. I think that the, trajectory is fine to see a Nephilim mean, meaning fallen ones, and seeing that the Septuagint handles it as gigas. And again, the conceptual connection is strong enough for me. So then you have this issue of the giants, and, but they're an unholy mixture. So in the Hebrew Bible, and even in the New Testament, what makes something unclean? It You, it's unclean when it's defiled. And so what are these Nephilim? They're defiled. They're unclean,

Joel Muddamalle: beings, half human, half supernatural. And as a result, you have to ask a question, when they're killed, when they're taken out, and you see this, with, the explanation with Joshua and the spies. They get into Canaan, they go, "Oh my gosh, these dudes are huge. They're like the Anakim." And the Anakim come from the Nephilim are part of these giant tribes with the Rephaim-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... And there's a linguistic connection that's taking place with all of these beings. And then you go, okay, so what happens to these beings? Well, a spirit that is half divine, spiritual, and half human has no place to go It doesn't belong in the spiritual realm, but it doesn't fully belong in the earthly realm. Like, where does it go? It gets trapped. It gets trapped. And so, there's a brilliant scholar, his name is Archie Wright, and Archie wrote, he did a dissertation at first, and it came into a monograph where he talks about Second Temple Judaism and the origin of evil spirits. And so this is, like, for me, the place that I think everybody should go to read the trajectory of where Mike even is citing from. And so in Second Temple literature, you get the origin story of these demonic spiritual beings as the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of man, the Nephilim. And when the Nephilim would die, often in battle, there were these giants, King Og of Bashan. When they would die in battle, their spirits would have no place to go, and they would be trapped on the Earth, right? There's giant kings and giant clans.

Sean McDowell: Right.

Joel Muddamalle: You can go into detail about all of that. I think that's fascinating because, And this has, some of the work that I did in The Unseen Battle with the idea of the teraphim and, the household gods and the household deities.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle: You find this with Rachel and Laban and the whole stealing, of the teraphim. Kings want their kingdom, and their kingdoms are connected to geographical areas, right? There's something significant about what Jesus is doing in the incarnation, where many New Testament scholars point out that He is reliving the story of Israel, and there's cosmic geography, where He goes in the land of Galilee, of Bashan, Mount Hermon, all of these places. This is not random. It's actually all connected back to this issue of the Nephilim, the issue of evil and how it spreads out throughout the world. And so here you have these spirits that have no place to go. They eventually go mad over time. But I think what's... And you were talking about it, Sean, where you were talking about the desire to possess. Where does the desire to possess come from other than they were embodied once? They remember what it meant to be embodied, and they desire it again. And so, fascinating, by the time you get into the Gospels of the New Testament, the language for demons, the English word for demons, is translated as unclean spirits or evil spirits. Where do you get that language from? In the Greco-Roman time period, in the Second Temple writing, that phrase for unclean spirits in Greek was a telltale sign of literature that was being written, Enochic tradition, and other Second Temple literature, to describe the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. And so the Gospel writers don't feel the need to educate you [laughs] on the origin story right now, you know- ... Of where that came from because it was already in the conceptual worldview of the people. When they heard that phrase, evil spirits or unclean spirits, they would go, "Oh, wait a minute. I know where that story came from." You know? There, there's already a preexisting tradition that understood the origin of these spiritual beings. And so all that to say, the demons of the New Testament, are not the fallen sons of God of the Old Testament. They're categorically distinct and different. What are they? They're the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. They desire to possess, and they've gone mad. And I love Luke 4, because Jesus comes in and He deals with one of these spiritual beings that is unclean. And the spirit being looks at Jesus and goes, " [gasps] " And there's a parsable that doesn't get translated often. I kinda think that it's a, basically a cuss word. Like [laughs]

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: The demon's like, " [gasps] " Like, enter... Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Sure. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Like, he's like, "You're the Holy One of Israel," and then changes-

Sean McDowell: That's funny

Joel Muddamalle: ... From the tense from singular to plural, and then says, "We," we plural. "We know who you are," right? And so, and then Jesus later, I think it's Luke 21, He says, "You know, if by the hand of God I cast out demons, then what does it mean but the Kingdom of God is upon you?" And so you have Jesus and demon exorcisms of the New Testament being a distinct thing that is actually an indication of on Earth as it is in Heaven. It is the inauguration, and the, in-breaking of the Kingdom of God.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so we're gonna get into much more in, when we get, in our next episode on Enoch. But just so I understand, you are with Heiser on demons in the New Testament being the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, and those details are filled in by intertestamental

Joel Muddamalle: Literature

Sean McDowell: ... Including Enoch.

Joel Muddamalle: Enoch.

Sean McDowell: As a whole, you're on board with that understanding?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, it makes, it makes the most sense to me, again, because of cosmic geography, the location of where these things take place, and the presence of giant clans in the Old Testament, the Joshua conquests, where I don't think the whole reason for the Joshua conquest is the giant clans. I think it's a part of it, and we shouldn't overlook it, you know? And so yeah, I'm with Mike, on that.

Sean McDowell: Okay, good. I love it. So that's actually where Clint Arnold, I did a recent interview with him. He takes a different position on that.

Joel Muddamalle: Oh, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Which is fine. We're all trying to make sense of the evidence and follow it.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So if you've watched that interview or right now you have questions, again, make sure you see the one on Enoch, but write your questions in, and we can do a deep-dive follow-up live stream, after the Enoch one and get your take on it. That's awesome. Okay. Now, this one I'm gonna ask you, kinda maybe sum up briefly, 'cause you go into this a lot of depth in your book.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We talked about this in our last interview. But you've talked about this fall of the sons of God.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's one. We always think of the fall of Genesis 3.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: You say there's three key falls-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... That should inform how we think about I mean, just the Old Testament and redemption moving forward. So remind us of those three and how they fit into the Biblical storyline.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, so in The Unseen Battle, the first half of the book really walks through what I call the three rebellions. And again, this isn't something new and novel to me. This is well understood and, amongst Hebrew specialists and scholars of Second Temple literature as well. The three rebellions are Genesis

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... Which most evangelical Christians would be like, "Yeah, that's the one. It's 'cause of Adam and Eve. They-"

Sean McDowell: How could you be an evangelical Christian and

Joel Muddamalle: Not-

Sean McDowell: ... Think of the fall immediately?

Joel Muddamalle: Exactly

Sean McDowell: [laughs] By definition.

Joel Muddamalle: I mean, we call it the fall. [laughs] That's, like, the, monopoly on the term, right? And yet Second Temple readers would say, "Yeah, but don't forget, you know, Genesis 6," which is the sons of God and the daughters of man. And the background to that is the Enochic tradition, which says that, it expands on the story, which says, "Hey, by the way, when that took place, there was an unholy exchange that happened." Yes, the daughters of man, and the sons of God had a union, but in order to establish that union, there was a giving of wisdom, of knowledge, of reading astrology, tarot cards, of pharmakeia- ... From how to use pharmaceutical, you know, plants, and the big one, metallurgy, how to create weapons. Well, what ends up happening? Evil spreads throughout the world. The issue isn't the presence of information. The issue is how you use that information.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle: And boy, aren't we living smack in the middle of that right now. It's like the famous saying, "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." I think that comes from Jurassic Park. [laughs] Like they're onto something, you know? And we're living in an age where you can do whatever you want, and we're just doing it just for the sake of doing it without considering the cost and the impact and the effect that it's having, not just on our society, but on us individually and our humanity. This is not a new and novel idea. This is present in the Enochic tradition read in light of Genesis 6, which actually presumes the flood narrative. Like, why do things-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... Get so bad? Because of what ends up happening with these spiritual beings and the delivering of information that essentially becomes self-destructive to humanity. Wait a minute. What happened in Genesis 3? The knowledge of good and evil. Oh, yeah, it's a recapitulation. [laughs] It's a retelling- ... Of kind of the same story. And then the last one, we'd talked about it already, is Genesis, 11, the story of the Tower of Babel read in light of Deuteronomy 32:8 and 9. And in my book, I kinda talk about how Deuteronomy 32:8 and 9, I know we're all Marvel guys in here, you know, it's kinda like the Marvel end credit scene that ends up taking place after Genesis 11, and you're left wondering, "Okay, the nations are disinheri- or the nations have been divided. They go out based off of their own languages." Now what happens? Well, God gives stewardship. And my language here is very important. He gives stewardship to the nations to protect the nations, to be stewards of the nations for a time until Genesis chapter 12, the Abrahamic Covenant, that God chooses to redeem and retrieve all the nations back into the household after, the consequence for their sin. These sons of God of Deuteronomy 32:8 and 9, don't steward the nations. They elicit the worship of the nations. They become the gods of the nations. And so that would be the third rebellion that actually sets the stage for the gods of the nations and the Egyptian narrative and the Assyrian and Persian and you know, the mess that we find ourselves in in the New Testament.

Sean McDowell: So one of the things that Heiser did so well, and I think you do this in your book as well, is kind of big picture reframing. So let's not just look at the fall that kicks us out of the garden, separated from God. Let's look at the origin of where maybe demons come from and why the whole world was flooded. Let's look at how the Babel, the fall in Genesis 11, how we spread out and there's this cosmic geography. These are like-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... When I read this, I'm like, "Wait a minute. Where has this been my whole life?" But then there's also certain particulars he gets into, where he doesn't take the big picture. He kinda narrows down the specifics. I'm like, "Wait a minute. That's reframing [laughs] a story, and you might be right about this."

Joel Muddamalle: Yep.

Sean McDowell: And one of 'em when I first read his book, Demons, is that the English translation for scapegoat-

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... That's in Leviticus-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Chapter 16 is better translated, correct me if I say it wrong, Azazel-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Which is a proper name of a demon in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other Jewish texts.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Is he right about this? And what would that mean for how we understand the Day of Atonement and even, I guess we'll get to this in the future, like, how the desert is the place of the dead.

Joel Muddamalle: The

Sean McDowell: Like, how does that reframe how we understand a scapegoat if he's right about this? And do you think he's right?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, you, I do think he's right about Azazel or Azazel, however you wanna, pronounce it. I... My general take on pronunciation is just pick something and then go with

Sean McDowell: It. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: ... And be confident with it, and you'll be okay. These are dead languages for the most part, so nobody knows-

Sean McDowell: Just say it like you know it

Joel Muddamalle: ... Anyways. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's the key. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So yes, I do think that he's right about that. What I think is really important, what I know is really important for us to consider in this is the place that this story has in the rest of the trajectory of the salvation history of Israel and, of the people of God in general. There's a lot of debate right now, Sean, [laughs] on the question of justification, the question of atonement, what atonement theory. Is there a superior atonement theory to others?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: There's a book that came out on penal substitution, that kinda has the evangelical world up in a, up in an uproar, recently. The

Sean McDowell: A deep dive ... With William Lane Craig to that

Joel Muddamalle: ... On Lamb of the

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay.

Sean McDowell: And then he followed up with two podcasts responding to the criticism of that, just so people know it's out there, but-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Keep going.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, so, like, we don't... I mean, so this is something that deserves time, to consider. What I wanna do with this is to look and say, okay, the name only shows up in Leviticus 16, 8, [laughs] and then ... Verse 10 as well, right? So it's like only shows up twice here in the Hebrew Bible. The name does show up in Enoch, and it does show up in other Dead Sea Scrolls. Language-wise, it's a combination of terms, ez, which would have meant goat, and ozel, which is a verb, to go away or to disappear. And with the understanding of the The name being used in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and in Enoch, it's used in those places as an epithet for a, for a demon. It's a proper name of a demon. This is one of those instances where I go, "Oh, you now have a proper name associated to a demon, not a categorical [laughs] name associated," right? Or a title that's associated. And the example of this is I kind of have an issue... I don't kind of. I'm trying to become more of, like, definitive on my stuff. I'm, I wanna say-

Sean McDowell: I've noticed you, like, three or four times, you're like, "I kinda think this." You're like, "No, I do think this." [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: No, I do think this.

Sean McDowell: Which is fine. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, you know, Jezebel spirit, like, we hear that often. The Jezebel spirit, and when you hear that, I do not believe it should be used as a proper name for a spiritual being, because the Bible doesn't do that. The Bible doesn't use Jezebel as a proper name for a demonic entity, for a spir- an evil spiritual being. It's used as a proper name of a historical figure. Even Revelation, when it's being referred to again, as Jezebel, it is casting a historical figure- ... Into that role. And so this is one of those moments where people that are well-meaning, I think deliverance ministry, we're trying to categorize and give language to what we're experiencing, and yet it's not precise. The Bible itself is not using the terminology that way. It's different here with Azazel, because the Bible does use, that term in Leviticus, and you have Second Temple literature that describes this as an epithet for a demon. So the Hebrew here has a personal name in mind, and it fits kind of conceptually with the scene of what's taking place.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so before you keep going, apart from the Second Temple literature, if we're just reading the Hebrew in Leviticus chapter 16, it should be understood as a personal name. We just might not know who this personal name is and what it refers to

Joel Muddamalle: Until you-

Sean McDowell: ... The later literature shows up.

Joel Muddamalle: Exactly.

Sean McDowell: Is that accurate?

Joel Muddamalle: Yes yes.

Sean McDowell: Okay, keep going.

Joel Muddamalle: So as a summary of the scene, Yahweh receives a goat, right? And now there's another goat that bears the sin of Israel, and this other goat is sent into the wilderness.

Sean McDowell: The scapegoat.

Joel Muddamalle: This is a point-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... Of clarification. This is where the scapegoat idea comes from. This is a point of clarification. Azazel is not receiving a sacrifice. This is not to say that the ancient Israelites were sacrificing intentionally in a form of kind of worship to this demonic spiritual being named Azazel. It's not.

Sean McDowell: That's important.

Joel Muddamalle: What this is an indication that the wilderness is an image of chaos and destruction. It is anti-creation. Eden is a garden. It is the place of beauty and flourishing. The wilderness is a place of anti-creation. It is the place of death and despair. So why does the scapegoat that carries the sin, the chaos of the community, go into the wilderness? 'Cause it's going where it belongs. The wilderness is the locale for this, and what also lives in this locale? The being that creates chaos and dysfunction named Azazel. So what does Azazel get? What he deserves, the sin and the chaos. So the other, the interesting connection, a little bit more detailed, the Enoch piece, and I know we're gonna talk about it later, but Azazel's also the name of the head of the Watchers of Genesis 6. And this is how it's recorded in the Book of Enoch, and this connects to, other references in Second Temple literature, which has the idea of cosmic geography, and the context, around that. And so Azazel, you know, is, I don't wanna say that he's the king of the wilderness, but there is a place of sacred space. You have sacred space.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, so some authority there.

Joel Muddamalle: There's a place of authority. There's a place of impact and influence. And so this is where the scapegoat goes.

Sean McDowell: Okay, so what Heiser writes on page 27 of his book, Demons, he's talking about Azazel. He says, "The high priest was not sacrificing to Azazel."

Joel Muddamalle: Yep.

Sean McDowell: "Rather, Azazel was getting what belonged to him, sin."

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So I taught Old Testament for years, and I would say there's the one goat that they sacrifice. There's another one with blood on it, and it's taking the blood, representing the sin, away from the people. Hence, when we say, that person is the scapegoat," taking the blame for somebody else who really deserved it.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: The piece I missed, if Heiser's right about this, and I suspect that he is that it wasn't just randomly in the desert the way we think of the desert, as a place you go four-wheeling, or you just-

Joel Muddamalle: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Get alone, or it's barren. No, they saw it through a supernatural lens, that there were some authorities and spirit beings acting in the wilderness, almost in similar ways they would see the sea a little bit. It's a place of chaos.

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And so it, that's where the lack of a supernatural worldview that I think Heiser's bringing in transforms things. And so let me just jump ahead, and then we'll pull back into demons. Seems to me that would transform how we think about Jesus going out

Joel Muddamalle: Into the wilderness

Sean McDowell: And being tempted for 40 days, so he's the new Israel, and he's faithful, unlike Israel for 40 years.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But in the wilderness, the animals are tending to him. Rather than being chaotic and causing danger, they tend to him.

Joel Muddamalle: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Which, if they have-

Joel Muddamalle: It's anti-creation

Sean McDowell: ... Some symbolism to these beings, it's saying, "Wait a minute, there's something different about this person, Jesus, who has authority." Is that what's going on? How would you connect it to the story-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... At the beginning of Luke?

Joel Muddamalle: So once again, this is the biblical theology piece of it. These are not randomized stories that are just presented for no reason. There is, it's like a good comedian who places a joke in the very beginning and then does a callback consistently. There's a serious callback over here. The wilderness isn't the only time. You think about the wilderness wandering for Israel. You think about, this, then you get to Jesus. And I think it's so fascinating that it's immediately after, according to the Gospel of Mark, after his baptism scene, when it's like, "Good and faithful servant," right? It says that the Spirit of God then, propels him, expels him, essentially, into the wilderness. Now, if I'm Jesus, I'm kinda like, "This is an enigmatic, like, crazy moment. Like, can I just get my flowers for a little bit?" You know? Like "Can I have a couple days before I gotta go into cosmic war?" [laughs] And the Spirit of God's like, "Nah, we got work to do." And it's it's really interesting. I don't have the details in front of me, but I believe the way that Mark uses the language of, and when Jesus was sent in, it's also the same, technical term that's used of demon exorcisms, for expulsion. And so you have a linguistic connection-

Sean McDowell: Interesting

Joel Muddamalle: ... There that's happening.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: So it's setting up the scene that Jesus is the new Israel, Jesus is the faithful Israel, and Jesus is like, "I'm not waiting for the enemy to come into my ground. I'ma go to the enemy's ground, which is the wilderness." And then you have these three temptations. In my book The Unseen Battle, I try to make an argument that the three temptations are actually a redemptive reversal of the three rebellions that are taking place. And you have the imagery of the sea, the desire and the take. You have the presence of the temple. You have the presence of the kingdom. The, there's a, this thing called a semantic range when it comes to, biblical words. So for instance, oikos is the Greek term for household in Greek. Beit is the Hebrew term, for household. The semantic range of household in both Greek and Hebrew, can mean the nuclear family, it can mean the temple, and it can mean a kingdom. Well, what happens up in the wilderness, and what is Jesus doing? Jesus is reclaiming his family, Jesus is establishing them as the royal priesthood of all believers, and Jesus is inaugurating the Kingdom of God. And all that is taking place here in the wilderness, and those are all the things that the enemy, that the devil, is trying to present to Jesus as a means of desire. There's this fascinating thing when it says, when the devil says, "You're the Son of God, so go ahead." This is not, passive-aggressive language. It's not like, you know, "Well, you're just, you know, the Son of God." Like, it's like, "You're the Son of God." It's actually- ... Affirmation of his title. "You are the Son of God. You deserve this." And it's actually an invitation for Jesus to misuse his authority, to abuse his authority, because in the incarnation, he is submitting not ontologically forever [laughs]

Sean McDowell: That's right. That's right

Joel Muddamalle: ... But for a season. He is fulfilling the incarnation, the full responsibility of humanity. He's submitting to the Father. Well, what happens in Genesis 6? It's a transgression of boundaries. And so here you're seeing all of those echoes being hyperlinked back to the three rebellions of Genesis 3, 6, and, 11. And then you see the three temptations, and that's where you have, like, even Azazels that are the watchers, and, the wilderness goat, and, you know, sin. And this is a telltale sign leading us into the cross.

Sean McDowell: Those links are crazy. I mean, when I first read Heiser, I was like, "Wait a minute." First off, it just completely messed with my mind on so many levels. I'm still trying to make sense of it. But making these connections to Jesus, say, in the wilderness, is like, "Oh, my goodness, wait a minute. We can't miss this to understand the spiritual battle that he's in." You do a great job in your book doing that. Now, I wanna turn to Satan, but you did say a minute ago, you said, like, a great comedian who sets up a joke, brings it full circle. You did call Jordan the GOAT.

Joel Muddamalle: Yes.

Sean McDowell: And I gave you a chance with Leviticus ... To just bring it full circle.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But, you know, just throwing it out there.

Joel Muddamalle: I couldn't find a lexical connection- ... To LeBron as being the anti-GOAT.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: And so I just, I just, I just couldn't do that. But apparently he's leaving Oakland.

Sean McDowell: Had to go there.

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: I love it. All right. Let's shift. So you mentioned Satan, Ha-Satan, earlier.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: How does... Like, I think most people would say they understand the traditional view of Satan being the leader of God's angels at one point, rebelling against him, getting casting down 'cause he wanted to make himself like God.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. He's, yeah, Ezekiel

Sean McDowell: ... Ezekiel 28.

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: So we know that, but maybe walk through, how does Heiser fit Satan into his understanding of the demonic, evil spiritual realm?

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And how do you fit it into that realm?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I don't think too much changes with how Mike, fits it in. The main thing that Mike wants us to do is not read, the devil figure into the Ha-Satan of Job, because he wants to take the Hebrew Bible on its own terms. Again, point of disagreement for me, where I'd have no problem reading, a, the devil figure into that after we see what's actually happening there with the divine council scene and the accuser, because this is kind of painting a bigger picture of what the, what the devil is doing and what his role is. In terms of, like, where I locate the devil and his work, this has a lot to do with my work in Ephesians. I know you've got Clint, who's, like, the premier Ephesians and Colossians ... Scholar. But you've got the devil as the prince of the power of the air, being-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Joel Muddamalle: ... Described in Ephesians. You've got, the devil as being described as a, as a father of a, of a household, you know? Jesus refers to, those that are acting in evil ways as children of the devil. [laughs] And so you do have a kind of authority that is given and descriptive of the devil who's leading an army, leading, a militaristic campaign against Yahweh and his household, where I believe that we Ought to be careful is to presume that it is a totality of authority. Like, the devil is just in lockstep with all of his henchmen, you know? Instead, I like to think of the dark powers as, competing warlords.

Joel Muddamalle: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And they're following... It's like, "Hey, I'm gonna absolutely do everything I can to destroy Yahweh, and I can't destroy Yahweh, so we're gonna go after his children." So that's the way to grieve the heart of a father, is you go after the children, right? And yet, you also find chaos amongst the nations. They're, they also are competing for territory and for land. I read a fascinating book, about the 800-year war,

Sean McDowell: Huh

Joel Muddamalle: ... Between Persia and Rome. It was recommended by Tom Holland, the historian, not the Spider-Man.

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: And, it was just fascinating. And all the way throughout it, secular historian, you find this little civilization, little group of people called the Israelites that keep popping up. But it begs the question, how do you have this kind of competition, this war between Persia and Rome for this long, you know? And, Daniel 8 in cosmic geography lets us know that there are dark powers- ... Behind geopolitical entities, and they are also narcissistic in nature. They're trying to take each other out to gain as much as they can, and every now and then, they find a commonality in fighting against Yahweh and His children. And so, I would locate the devil in a traditional sense, that the devil is, the leader of, the forces of evil that desire to deceive the people of God and to ultimately destroy the people of God. And I also think the devil is limited in time and space.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle: We have to be very careful that we do not- ... Create... You know, systematic theologians refer to the incommunicable attributes of God, that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. This is not an Asian yin and yang situation. Like, the dark powers, the devil, does not have equal... This is not a divine pull, like tug of rope, you know? Like, he's a created being, and as such, is limited in time and space, which thus leads me to the belief that the enemy is the most prolific in mass marketing sin.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Loves to mass market sin. There's a reason why we have a pornography epidemic. There's a reason why we have an opioid epidemic. There's a reason why anxiety and depression is skyrocketing. In the most interconnected society that we've probably ever had in human history, you've got more and more people saying, "I feel more lonely. I feel more disconnected from other people," and, finding, a hopelessness in their life. These are not random. I grew... Sean, I grew up when, Facebook or Instagram first came out, and you could scroll down, and you would finish your feed, and it would say, "All... Congratulations, all caught up."

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: You know the first thing they left?

Sean McDowell: I forgot about that.

Joel Muddamalle: That feature. That was the first thing they left. The doom scroll began because you never wanna be caught up. You always wanna be inundated with new information, and, that's what I believe that the devil and the dark powers are working in systems and structures.

Sean McDowell: So is Satan one of the sons of God who rebelled against and has cosmic geography, maybe larger geography, or is he one of the spirits of the Nephilim-

Joel Muddamalle: No [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Who wants to... And the reason I ask about that one-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Is because we're told in the Gospel of John that Satan actually possessed and went

Joel Muddamalle: Into

Sean McDowell: ... Judas.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Think he's the only one that I can think of where that happens. It's one thing to be possessed. It's [laughs] another when you're possessed-

Joel Muddamalle: By Satan himself

Sean McDowell: ... By Satan himself.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So how does he fit into that kind of metric?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, that's such a good question. I haven't thought much about the Satan possessing Judas one, so that's a good, a budding trail for me to chase down. Satan, I would not categorically place him with the sons of God.

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Joel Muddamalle: ... I would actually place him categorically with, Michael the Archangel. And in fact, when you read... And I make a case for this in The Unseen Battle. When you're reading about cosmic geography and the Prince of Persia, I would cast that the Prince of Persia in that setting, is actually the Satan figure-

Sean McDowell: Oh, okay

Joel Muddamalle: ... Who's competing against Michael. Now, that or... That, now you've got counterparts in that scenario.

Sean McDowell: That's so interesting.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Okay. So by the way, I haven't aired it yet at the time we're recording this, but I asked Clint Arnold if there's these sons of God over geographic areas.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Should we engage in spiritual warfare with him? And his answer blew me away. I'm gonna leave you a hook to go take a look at. [laughs] I was like, "Dang-"

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... "I didn't even think about that."

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: But so circle back to the possession one.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: If people have questions about that, write it in, or takes on it, and we'll come back when we do the Q&A, we'll kind of weigh into that.

Joel Muddamalle: Yep.

Sean McDowell: 'Cause that would make me think if the Nephilim used to possess people-

Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Either he is of the same nature as the Nephilim 'cause he wants to possess, Judas, or this is one unique instance out of his norm where he does it. I don't know how to answer that. But so would you say then names like, Prince of Persia, Beelzebub, Satan, Devil, same-

Joel Muddamalle: Azazel

Sean McDowell: ... Azazel

Joel Muddamalle: Shemihazah, yeah

Sean McDowell: ... All the same figure, different names given for that figure? Is that how you see it?

Joel Muddamalle: I tend to think that. I tend to think that these are names that are given to describe one figure that are, that are different shades and different masks at different time. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Okay, fair enough. All right.

Joel Muddamalle: The same idea happens with Marduk, same thing happens with Baal, same thing happens with Zeus, these, Greek figures. One of the fascinating things that I... My, blew my mind away was the iconography of Baal and the description of Baal as a deity that is the storm god, that the iconography shows him with a lightning bolt in his hand riding on a bull. Wait a minute. [laughs] Like, that's Like, toe for toe, that's exactly like-

Sean McDowell: That's what

Joel Muddamalle: You got with Zeus.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: You know? And so I tend to think that these are the same, spiritual beings that are just changing masks, called different things, but they're known for their function and what they produce and what they do.

Sean McDowell: Man, that's so interesting. Okay, so I wanna kinda shift to some takeaways from this, but did I miss anything I should've asked you about, I guess we can go back to angels as well, but demons, how Satan figures into this. Anything you wanna add that Heiser would've believed, you agree with him, disagree with him, to understand this, or you think we'd sufficiently covered it until the questions come strolling in?

Joel Muddamalle: I mean, I think the the big one for me is, that we haven't talked about, is the angel of the Lord figure in,

Sean McDowell: Okay

Joel Muddamalle: ... The Old Testament, you know?

Sean McDowell: Let's do it.

Joel Muddamalle: And so the angel of the Lord figure, my view is that the angel of the Lord figure is the pre-incarnate Christ.

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Joel Muddamalle: And so, you know, I don't think that Jesus is waiting around in some green room for His divine moment, [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Green room

Joel Muddamalle: ... "Now is your time, buddy," you know? He's active. And the angel of the Lord, if you just trace the angel of the Lord appearances in the Old Testament, you find that he speaks as God. He doesn't, He doesn't come as a messenger speaking the message of Yahweh. He takes that personal, language. He is called Yahweh, yet He's distinct from Yahweh, is a whole other conversation, that Mike did a lot of work on this concept, the two powers in heaven, which was ... A well-known kind of second temple understanding, of the way the Israelites understood, Yahweh. The other thing about the angel of the Lord is that he receives worship. In Joshua 5, we find this. Never else do you find angelic beings that are allegiant and loyal to Yahweh accept human worship. Another thing is that he is, setting the stage by presenting to us the work of Jesus in the incarnation earlier on. He's doing the Son's work all the way throughout the Old Testament. And so you've got Genesis 16, Hagar in the wilderness, Genesis 18 and 19, Abraham. You've got Mount Moriah. There's a whole one on Mount Moriah, which is kind of wild, where you have the angel of the Lord, which think about that. On Mount Moriah, angel of the Lord, here's Jesus. There's a goat that is caught in the thicket, and, Mount Moriah is also, you know, the location where, you would say, like, wait a minute. Jesus is there pre-incarnate as the angel of the Lord, recognizes that there's gonna be a... This is an argument for penal substitution. There's going to be

Sean McDowell: Uh-huh

Joel Muddamalle: ... Substitute, and lo and behold, it is Jesus. He is the substitute, so.

Sean McDowell: I love that.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Good stuff. Well, I haven't done an in-depth dive here on angel of the Lord. Maybe we'll have you back for the third to talk about that.

Joel Muddamalle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Or we've got some great... I know you traveled a long ways to get here, which I appreciate. We've got some great scholars here, but I would ask my viewers and listeners, like, yeah, deep dive on who is the angel of the Lord, how it fits into God's character.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Is it the pre-incarnate Christ? We have some remarkable scholars here at Talbot. If you feel like that would be a helpful dive-

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... Let me know. We could do one or two parts of that, either you or one of our amazing scholars here. Okay, let me just kinda bring this full circle.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Suppose Heiser's right and that your right is what you lay out in The Unseen Battle. How would that change the way that pastors preach, Christians pray, and churches think about spiritual warfare and missions?

Joel Muddamalle: I've been doing a lot of work on Revelation 2 recently- ... Particularly the letter that's given to the church in Ephesus, and I would, agree and believe that these are circular letters that are meant to be handed around. And yet there's a targeted audience. And there's this really interesting, phrase that happens in Revelation 2, and, it starts, with these throwbacks to earlier in Revelation, 1. I just wanna read, this in Revelation 2.

Sean McDowell: Please.

Joel Muddamalle: It says, "To the angel of the church in Ephesus," okay? So what I find fascinating, Sean, get me in trouble here, but I find it fascinating that this is to the angel of the church in Ephesus, not to the angel of Ephesus.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Joel Muddamalle: And you find that pattern through all of it, to the angel of the church in Smyrna, to the angel of the church in Pergamum, to the angel of the church in Thyatira. Like, you never find to the angel of Ephesus. It's to the remnant [laughs] to the household of God-

Sean McDowell: That is interesting

Joel Muddamalle: ... That finds themselves in a land that is not their own. [laughs] Like, there's this sojourner and stranger motif that carries over from Ephesians as well. So, "To the angel of the church in Ephesus, write the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands." So scholars question, who are these seven stars? Most, scholars would agree that the seven golden lampstands, reference the witness of the local churches that are being described, but what is the identity of these seven stars? Various interpretive options have been given. Are we talking about pastors, bishops, local church rulers, leaders? I would say, why would we opt for any reading other than the cosmic reading [laughs] throughout the rest of Revelation?

Sean McDowell: That's fair.

Joel Muddamalle: The, and the presence of the language of star, stars as angelic beings in the Old Testament. Think about Job 38, "Where were you when the morning stars shouted for joy when the sons of God sang?" so who are these seven stars? I would make the argument the seven stars are angel- or spiritual beings. Like, see? I almost, I almost slipped up there.

Sean McDowell: Yeah. [laughs]

Joel Muddamalle: Are spiritual beings. Now, the point of this verse, though, is not the spiritual beings. So, "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write, 'To the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand.'" The point is not the seven stars. The point is to the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand. Who is the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand? Jesus is the one who holds. And so for me, like the big takeaway of all of this is to never miss Jesus. It is so simple, but it's far from being simplistic. It's that everything that we have studied thus far and talked about and discussed and maybe even disagreed on, that these are all things that ought to lead us to marvel at Jesus. That Jesus is the one who has authority over these spiritual beings. That Jesus is the one who's gonna be victorious in the end. That Jesus is the one who overcame the temptations. That Jesus is the one who invites us into his household, into his family, to be a royal priesthood of all believers as we watch and witness the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God. And so, this to me is why all of this matters. It's not to make much of spiritual beings. It's not to be left in fear about demonic entities. It's to be reminded of the role and the place that Jesus has in the midst of all of this.

Sean McDowell: I love you wrapped it up with that 'cause one of the first things that you said when we started this was, "We don't wanna get too kind of fascinated by angels and demons, as powerful as they are, as central as they are to the biblical story. But it's ultimately about the person of Jesus, what he accomplished on the cross, who he's forming us into by our spirit, and what it means to be his ambassadors today." So to bring it back to that's what all this unseen realm and unseen battle points to, I think is perfect. All right, we got you back soon to talk about Enoch.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And we're gonna do a deep dive on Genesis 6. I have never discussed this on my YouTube channel. I've wanted to for a while. I've wanted the right guest and the right time, and I think you're the perfect one for this. So if you have questions from this one, type in the word caps QUESTION, and after we post the Enoch one, shortly after that, we will do a live stream Talbot Tuesday, and we will take your questions. So you could actually go back to the first interview that we did if you had questions from that. You go to this interview, the next one on 1 Enoch. I've talked about Heiser three or four other times. Throw those questions in or we have, one of his proteges, and we will tackle those questions. Check out his book, The Unseen Battle. It's excellent. You didn't ask me, but I would've gladly endorsed it had you asked me. Not that you needed to, but I've read it, through a couple times and just thoroughly enjoy it. You really take Heiser and say, "Here's how you understand him," and add some nuances and New Testament stuff that I think is super helpful. While you're watching, folks, make sure you hit Subscribe 'cause we've got some other interviews coming up you will not wanna miss, and we'd love to have you here at Talbot School of Theology, especially studying apologetics. Joel, did I miss anything, man?

Joel Muddamalle: No. Appreciate it. Love it.

Sean McDowell: Good stuff. Thanks for coming on. [upbeat music]