Cultural Update: The Pope Speaks on War; Supreme Court Rules on Conversion Therapy; Christian Crypto Culture

Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] On Palm Sunday, the Pope weighs in on the subject of war, the Supreme Court rules on conversion therapy, a provocative piece on the connection between Christian faith and Bitcoin, and questions about the impact of AI and technology on our ability to think. These are the stories we'll cover. We'll address some of your questions as usual. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and sitting in for the irreplaceable Sean McDowell is my Talbot colleague in theology, Dr. Erik Thoennes, who I'm sure will do a great job of replacing him today.

Erik Thoennes: [laughs] Thanks, Scott. Good to be with you.

Scott Rae: This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update from Talbot School of Theology. Erik, we got four great stories today, but let's start with this first one. On Palm Sunday, the Palm Sunday homily, which is a sermon delivered in Vatican Square, Pope Leo had strong words for those who use the name of God, particularly the name of Jesus, to justify war. He put it like this, and this is, I quote, "Brothers and sisters, this is our God, Jesus, king of peace, who rejects war, whom no one can use to justify war." He goes on to say that, this, "He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them." He says spec- to be a little clearer, I think he repeated that, but he said, "God rejects the prayers of leaders who start wars and have, quote, 'hands full of blood,'" and in Jes- insists that Jesus cannot be invoked to justify any wars. He c- he says, quote, "Jesus did not arm himself or defend himself or fight any war. He revealed the gentle face of God who always rejects violence. Rather than saving himself, he allowed himself to be nailed to the cross." Now, Erik, the Pope did not speak against any war in particular, but the applications were not hard to make-

Erik Thoennes: Right

Scott Rae: ... Referring to the current war in Iran, and I think could be applied to also the Russian-Ukraine war now entering its fourth year. All right, so Erik, I'm c- I'm interested as a, as a theologian on this, what do you make of the Pope's comments here?

Erik Thoennes: Well, I always try to think about who it is that's making the comments, and what's really obvious in this case is the person in charge of the national security of a nation is not saying these things. And I immediately thought of what security must be like around the Vatican and how lethal it would be if someone tried to kill the Pope [laughs] . And, and it's always interesting to me that someone can speak in ways that... In, in many ways, how can you disagree with some of the things he's saying? But when you consider the reality of life in this tragically fallen world, in that some are in charge of keeping the security of nations secure, it's easy for him to talk in that way, seeming to me to ignore the whole long tradition within the Catholic Church and Christianity in general of just war theory and of praying for those involved in war when you do believe a war is just. Now, of course, I love Abe Lincoln's quote during the war when someone asked if God was on the Union's side. He said, "My problem is not the victory. My problem is to be certain that I'm on God's side." That, that it's not about picking the right side, but making sure your side is representing things that are important to God. And so certainly think it's wrong to say this is a Christian war or Jesus is behind this war and all the ways it's being fought in the methods. But, but to just sort of simplistically say God doesn't listen to the prayers of those praying in this context or seeming to ignore a just war theory that has very laid out, well laid out rationale for when war would be considered just, I think seemed... I hate to use the word naive for the Pope, but it seemed that way.

Scott Rae: Yeah, Erik, I just, it struck me that it, I wanna, I wanna be f- be fair to this and give it the most charitable read that I can, but it's, it's not quite clear to me that he's condemning all efforts at self-defense. It, it seems in one of those statements that he condemns those who start wars, but on the other hand, invokes the example of Jesus' non-resistance to violence with his journey to the cross. And, and I do think he's, he is h- maybe it's important to highlight the main difference between what appears to be- ... A pacifism that he's espousing and the just war tradition, which is the right of communities and nations to defend themselves, like you suggest, against aggression. And I wonder what his take would've been on the Allies' resistance to the Nazis in World War II-

Erik Thoennes: Right

Scott Rae: ... For ex- for example, or the US's resistance to Japan after being attacked at Pearl Harbor. Now, I think to be clear, you know, there are some forms of the just war theory that hold that even preemptive strikes can be justified if it's clear that your enemies are planning an imminent attack, and are, and are amassed in order to do so. You know, for example, the most common example of this is Israel's preemptive attack on the Arab coalition in 1967 when they when they were amassed on all sides of Israel's border, and they deemed it unwise to wait until they had actually crossed the border and threatened their self-defense to launch a preemptive strike.

Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: So I think we have, you have to be careful to ensure that, the attack on you is imminent. But I think the extension of the just war notion, which basically, you know, as we mentioned, you know, a week ago, the just war tradition is 600 years old. And was formulated in a, in an era when warfare was totally different than it is today.

Erik Thoennes: Right.

Scott Rae: But I think what's, what's remarkable about the tradition is how enduring it has been. And this is-- this current war in Iran is one of the few, w-recent wars sort of in US history where the just war tradition has not been explicitly invoked like it was in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan in response to 9/11. So any other thoughts on that?

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. I do long for Christians in general to be more thoughtful about our political views, our views of things like war. I remember I had a prof in grad school who was a pacifist, and [clears throat] I had never even thought that much about it. I just sort of a-adopted a general view of war that the people and the Christians around me had. And he forced me to really consider the New Testament basis for the views of war that I had, and it was so good for me to do that. And I mean, this is, might sound crazy to some, but I actually think the United States has only fought one war that fits the just war theory. I don't even think the War of Independence fits the just war theory [chuckles] because, you know, taxation without representation, I don't think does the job sufficiently to wage war the way we did. Now, I think World War II does fit, like you said. But... And, and so I don't think so, yeah, we should be pro-war and hawkish as Christians at all, and at the same time, we do live in a fallen world. And, and I do think it's important for Christians to think through just war theory, just having just cause and trusting the authority that we have, and have, having proportional means of fighting the war, and non-combatants are to be protected, and so many important values. But as you say, it is so difficult in the way war is fought now. I mean, people are launching rockets from Nevada in the [chuckles] Middle East with drones and trusting leaders and really having an idea that I know what's going on politically, that this isn't a war caused to cause a distraction from something in the news. I mean, it's really hard to get a real beat on what's going on sometimes that makes it tough for us to be too easily affirming of a war. So I do think his word about Jesus being the Prince of Peace and us being ministers of reconciliation and seeking peace and valuing people regardless of their political or religious affiliations, no matter what, is a really important caution for us and at the same time not sort of sit in a, in an idealistic way, failing to appreciate the realities of life in this fallen world.

Scott Rae: Yeah. And I think to be clear, too, the just war notion, I think, was premised on some examples in the scriptures where God allowed communities to defend themselves. For example, when the temple, when the city walls of Jerusalem were being rebuilt under Nehemiah, when the Is- the Israelites returned from exile, half the men of appropriate age were working on the construction-

Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... And the other half were armed, forming a perimeter around them for the, for the de- their defense from people who were harassing them and did not wanna see them rebuild the walls of the city.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And then the other example I think is in the Book of Esther, where the, a, basically a genocide decree went out from the Persian king, and which, you know, decrees from the Medes and the Persians were, you couldn't revoke those once they had been issued. So instead of revoking, which the king could not do, he gave the Israelites the permission to arm and defend themselves from anything that was coming when the corruption of the plot, the genocide plot was revealed in the Book of Esther. And so the Bible does, I think, distinguish between self-defense and retaliation.

Erik Thoennes: Right.

Scott Rae: And I think tho- that's an important distinction, and I think much of what the New Testament describes as, or that we interpret as pacifism is actually not aimed at self-defense, but aimed at retaliation.

Erik Thoennes: Right. But like you s- like you were alluding to before, a failure to preemptively fight can actually make the casualties far worse.

Scott Rae: Yes.

Erik Thoennes: So, so there's a way of fighting war that may seem Christian but is actually stupid [laughs]

Scott Rae: Yes

Erik Thoennes: ... And not necessarily very Christian in the long run. And I do think it's important to respect the pacifist tradition within Christian theology and appreciate what it's saying. I- Romans 13 is often used, the, that the government doesn't bear the sword in vain and that sort of thing. But I think it is important to think through, is there a distinction between the government and the calling of the Christian in this? I mean, some versions of just war theory, priests were exempt. But with our ecclesiology, we're all priests. And so-

Scott Rae: That's right

Erik Thoennes: ... So is there a difference beween-- between the calling of the Christian in light of war and a secular government that's seeking justice or, protection a-as well? I think we should think about ways we engage. I know there are great examples of pacifists who are even willing to risk their lives but not take up arms at the same time. I just want us to be thoughtful and biblically informed in our views of things and not just align with a political party so that we'll go along with whatever it does, whichever that party is.

Scott Rae: Yeah. Thanks. That's a good, it's a good word to c- to close out that conversation. A lot more could be said on that, and we'll refer you back to other episodes where Sean and I have commented on a just war notion. All right, story number two.The Supreme Court rules on conversion therapy. This happened on Tuesday. Supreme Court decided in favor of a co- a Christian therapist in Colorado who was challenging a state law that prohibited mental health professionals from trying to change the sexual orientation or gender identity of LGBTQ minors. Now, supporters of the law have said repeatedly that such therapy is ineffective and potentially dangerous for minors. But the Supreme Court, in an eight to one decision, said that the law, as applied to what it refers to as talk therapy, represented an egregious assault on free speech and the First Amendment. Neil Gorsuch, Justice Gorsuch, who wrote the majority opinion, put it like this. He said, "Colorado may regard its policy as essential to public health and safety, but the First Amendment stands as a shield against any effort to enforce orthodoxy in thought or speech in this country." Now, Eric, the law that was adopted in two thousand and nineteen prohibits any practice or treatment that tries to change a minor's, quote, "gender expressions or eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attraction or feelings toward individuals of the same sex." Interestingly, state officials have never enforced the measure, which if they were to do so, would include fines of up to five thousand dollars for each violation and possible suspension or revocation of the counselor's license. Now, the law also includes a religious exemption for those, quote, "engaged in the practice of religious ministry," which I take it there refers to pastors or clergy, though you can make an argument that therapists are also engaging in religious ministry when doing distinctly Christian therapy. So the plaintiff, her name is Kaylee Childs, who's, who calls herself an evangelical Christian, sued the state actually four years ago, contending it prevented her from working with young patients who wanted to live a life, quote, "consistent with their faith." And the court agreed that her First Amendment rights were being violated by the Colorado law, and her advocates called it a major win for religious freedom. Eric, your take on this?

Erik Thoennes: Well, I was thrilled when I heard the outcome, and not only that the outcome was what it was, but it was eight to one. And Elena Kagan, the one was, Brown Jackson's dissent. But Kagan strongly... Elena Kagan, the liberal justice, came out and strongly [lip smacks] exhorted Brown Jackson to realize that her dissent was way off base in failing to appreciate the freedom of speech the way it needed to. And so I'm, I'm just so thankful for this because anything that seeks change now in someone's so-called sexual orientation is seen as cruel and just so wrong to do. So that people have the freedom to help people actually live out the design God's created for them to live out is m- a wonderful freedom that's been preserved by this, and I'm really thankful for it.

Scott Rae: Yeah. Now, I would, I would suggest there are some forms-

Erik Thoennes: Sure

Scott Rae: ... Of conversion therapy that are harmful. And I think you can be opposed to some of these forms and still believe in the reality of conversion in general at the same time.

Erik Thoennes: Right.

Scott Rae: And I think we're right to reject the notion that skepticism about some of these conversion therapies equals skepticism about conversion in general, not just related to sexuality.

Erik Thoennes: Right. Yeah, I agree entirely. It... There are ways that fail to appreciate the actual difficult experience people have with all kinds of confusion and even mental illness at times that come into play with body dysmorphia and different things. But the idea that efforts to change the way someone is experiencing life is inherently wrong when it comes to your sexuality is a deadly path to take. And, and I think that's becoming more and more clear, and people in helping professions are starting to realize they can do great damage if they only encourage someone's experience and feelings rather than at times correcting them and helping them turn a corner in another direction.

Scott Rae: Well, and I think especially if the, if the client himself or herself requests that kind of-

Erik Thoennes: Yes. Yeah

Scott Rae: ... You know, that k- that kind of conversation with the therapist, which do- which does happen. I mean, it's, you know, it's... I think it's not, it's not super uncommon for people to bring that to a, to a therapist, the... And in general saying, "You know, what do I do with these feelings that I haven't, you know, that I haven't encountered before and ha- and haven't chosen for myself?" Now, I think it's fair to say that, the law overreached in Colorado.

Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: I think, I think they are, they are... The law is right to be skeptical about some of these really damaging forms of conversion therapy, which I think are basically no longer in use today. And I think to prohibit therapists from even talking about changing or minimizing one's sexual affections, I think it, I think it's right to say that that's a, that's a First Amendment violation.

Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: Now, the critics of that will say, well, that talk therapy is a practice. It's not just, it's not just ordinary speech. It's the practice of doing therapy that happens to be revolve around conversation with a particular client. But I think in... Even if they, even if they, even i, I think conceding that, there is still, I think, a right of free speech that has to be, that has to be attended to-And, I think putting a muzzle on therapists for things that they can and cannot say to a client that I think are largely ideologically driven is what the court was reacting to, and in my opinion, ju-justifiably so.

Erik Thoennes: Right. And that's, that's where Kagan took it in her basic rebuke of Brown-Jackson when she said she was failing to distinguish between what she called viewpoint-based therapy and content-based speech restrictions. And so you're allowed to come with a viewpoint. I just... It's amazing to me that counselors are constantly trying to help people understand reality relative to their perception of reality in all sorts of ways. I mean, one of the main things about counseling is helping you think rightly rather than someone's very unhealthy ways of thinking, inaccurate ways of thinking. And, and I just-- I think this would open the door to counselors being unable to correct anything someone is convinced is true or what's best, even if it isn't. To, to limit a counselor's ability to impart wisdom and help someone out. Some, some methods of therapy is, you know, Rogerian, where you're just parroting back what someone says, giving them a sense of understanding. Maybe that's a bad generalization of Rogerian therapy. But, but if you're actually wanting to help someone grow in wisdom and in health, you've got to make judgment calls about what you think is healthy and what isn't. And so, in this area to say that's off-limits, you have no ability to include your view of what would be best for this person, I think that pulls the rug out from under the ability to counsel in meaningful and helpful ways.

Scott Rae: Well, and I understand, you know, ther-therapists, I think, have a, have a justifiable desire to help clients draw these conclusions for themselves and to come to those... And for them to lead them to those conclusions w-with, without being explicitly directive. But I think therapists are often making suggestions. They are... You know, they're commenting, they're assessing what they hear from clients. They're making those kinds of assessments like you describe, I think, pretty consistently as a part of the practice. Now, I'm not a, I'm not a therapist and don't actually desire to be one,

Scott Rae: but... Because I'm not that smart. But, I think the idea that w-we would, we would muzzle a therapist to say that there are certain things that are off-limits to be able to tell a client in reaction to what you are hearing from them, I think was what the court was responding to.

Erik Thoennes: Right. But I don't know how you then wouldn't say you have a client who washes her hands a hundred and fifty times a day and is convinced that's something that's really important and good, and the counselor just needs to allow that to happen. And the reason you go into counseling is because you want people to... You want to help people with their mental health. If you don't have a definition of what health is, I don't know how or why you would ever even want to do it.

Scott Rae: Well, yeah. Then the... Yeah, then it's sort of that Rogerian thing that you're describing where you're just... I mean, you're just providing a helpful sounding board.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: But I suspect we'll have therapists write in and say we've, we've dra-dramatically misunderstood what the therapeutic task is about.

Erik Thoennes: I do counseling a ton here at Biola-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Erik Thoennes: ... With my students and at my church where I'm a pastor. And, and you're right, you need to be patient. You, you don't be o-- you don't want to be overly directive, especially when it's judgment calls and opinions. But so often it's very clear what the best path is for this individual in spite of how they're feeling things must be, and you want to help them. You hold them by the hand and prayerfully help them toward health based on what you think is healthy. And, and this off-limits of sexual orientation now i-is just having devastating ramifications in the lives of some people, that they're told that if they take a different course, they're betraying their true identity.

Scott Rae: All right. Anything else on that?

Erik Thoennes: I think we're good.

Scott Rae: Okay. Eric, this third one is a story that we have-- we've never covered anything on this at all. And to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what to make of it. [chuckles] This was reported first on NBC News and refers to a growing movement to connect Christian faith to efforts to encourage people to invest in Bitcoin and other digital currencies. From churches now allowing congress to tithe with digital coins, to blogs promoting Bitcoin as biblically solid, there's what the article describes as an emerging Christian crypto subculture. For example, Todd and Janet Gatewood, a couple in the national area, launched a radio show entitled God, Freedom and Bitcoin, blending their passion for cryptocurrency with their strong Christian faith. There's also a nonprofit organization called Thank God for Bitcoin, which is at the forefront of this, as well as other Christian entrepreneurs who have broad followings, much of it in churches around the country. There's even a Bit- what's called a Bitcoin hub outside Nashville called the Highland Rim Project, a four-county real estate development. Now, the article points out that Christians are buying into cryptocurrency for different reasons. Some have framed it as a path toward a better work and faith-life balance. Some cite even end times beliefs, interpretation of biblical prophecies as part of that interest. Others see a co-- a need for a covert way to support missionaries in other parts of the world. Others see simply crypto as a way to build wealth and develop more time for other things. So I'm really curious to hear what you think of thisAnd is, you know, is this, is this have any legitimacy to it? Or do you think this is all a, you know, a prosperity gospel thing? So what do you make of this?

Erik Thoennes: Well, I need to start with a confession because anytime someone has tried to point out constellations to me, like Orion, they're really wanting me to see it, and I don't. And [chuckles] and they're so concerned that I see it that I have at times just said, "Oh, yeah, okay, I see the Bel-" But I really, I don't see it. There's something about me that cannot see Orion [chuckles] or Sagittarius. I can see the Big Dipper. I got that one, and the Little Dipper. But I feel this way about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. I- some of the smartest people I know, Matt Weathers here, a math prof here, I said, "Matt, you gotta help me understand what this is." And he explains it, and I get to the point where I'm, I feel like I'm looking at Orion just saying, "Okay. All right." Because [chuckles] I don't know if I'll ever really understand what this is, so I definitely don't understand the big draw to it. I have a hard time, however, not seeing this as another effort by Christians to figure out an alternative way that's safer based on growing concerns about our inability to trust the systems and the government and those sorts of things. I could be off base on that, but it sounds to me a lot like a lot of the conspiracy theories that a dr- that drive alternative ways of approaching things. And I'm not saying we have un-unbridled trust in the government or systems or anything, but I think we can have a, an attitude that is so skeptical and so suspicious that we're actually not very trusting ultimately of God's sovereignty in all of it. And it... I think there... It sounds from what I read in this article, there are branches of it that are playing into health-wealth mentality, and just a focus not on acquiring wealth so I can be generous with it, but making my life more tidy and comfortable the way I want it to be.

Scott Rae: That's a, that's a really good take on it. I do think the article does mention some of the people involved in this were concerned about the phenomena of what they call debanking. That, banks not doing business with them because of their views on certain things or because of political positions. I don't, I don't see banks turning away customers like this en masse, but, so I'm not familiar with some of this, and maybe in California, we don't, you know, we don't have debanking according to someone's political views or things like that. I'm just not aware of that. This has not been on my radar very much. And the article also, I think, Eric, interestingly points out your point about trusting in governments and banks and institutions, but it also points out that the trust engendered based on a common profession of faith with some of these folks actually increases the potential vulnerability to that trust being abused and being victimized by scammers and con artists.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. I've, I've always wondered what it is. I don't get it, honestly. I don't... I wondered what it is about Christians, how often we are drawn to things like multi-level marketing. And, I mean, there are certain multi-level marketing deals that Christians just dominated, and there are obviously some Christian principles that that's tapping into that merges the two and gives you a hope in something beyond yourself. But it just concerns me because I was just last night reading about a guy named Marshburn. We actually have one of our areas on campus here named after him, Marshburn Hall. And he was a very wealthy man and incredibly generous with his wealth, and then his fam- his children and grandchildren have followed in his legacy in their incredible generosity. But I just last night read about him, and he lost everything in the stock market collapse and the Great Depression. And he said he was standing outside of his bank in Whittier where they had locked the doors. They had closed the bank.

Scott Rae: Wow.

Erik Thoennes: And he lost everything. He said... He wrote to his children. He said, "All I had was the m- the money in my pocket, and I stood outside that bank thanking the Lord that I had given so much to the kingdom's work before this because that was the only truly safe investment I had ever made." [chuckles]

Scott Rae: That's so-

Erik Thoennes: It was just [chuckles]

Scott Rae: ... That's rich.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. And so we can get into just self-preservation and hoarding, but sort of, "Lord, would you bless me so I can be generous to kingdom work?" Like the Marshburn family's been all these years, and they still... They're, they're still a generous family. And, and I just was so struck by him saying that, "I've got nothing left except what I invested in God's work. That will never be a lost investment." It was just so encouraging.

Scott Rae: That's ve- that's rich.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: You know, the... We had a very generous donor to our philosophy program years ago who bought us a house adjacent to the campus that allowed us to use for housing students and guests and have a common area where the students can gather. And I remember him saying, he said, "I, you know, I wish I had done so much more when I had the opportunity."

Erik Thoennes: Right.

Scott Rae: And it was... I think he appreciated what a good kingdom investment that was, but had this sort of longing to have, to have invested moreIn those kinds of kingdom causes

Erik Thoennes: Right. I've, I've benefited from that house. I've had some rich conversations and heard some great lectures in that home, and you're exactly right. And actually Marshburn went on to say that. He said, "I was so thankful I had given as much as I had, but wished I had given more in light of having lost everything that wasn't-

Scott Rae: Yeah. Yeah

Erik Thoennes: ... Invested in the kingdom."

Scott Rae: You know, maybe we... I wonder if it'd be helpful, Eric, to do a little bit on, you men- you mentioned the health and wealth- ... Gospel, and to just tell our listeners a little bit more about what the prosperity gospel, what that, what that's about and w- you know, how this... I mean, there is... The article does mention that there are some of these Bitcoin enthusiasts who are framing it around the prosperity gospel. It's not... It d- it doesn't point out that's the majority, but it is, it is a contributor to it. So what do you mean by the health and wealth gospel?

Erik Thoennes: Well, there is a lot of great stuff that's come out of the United States, but two of the worst things that have ever come out of the United States and been shipped around the world is pornography and the health-wealth gospel. I think... And I think the poor are especially, vulnerable to this, which is one of the reasons it's been exported the way it has from the United States to very poor countries and places and caught on the way it has. And, unscrupulous so-called Christian leaders have exploited people in the name of the health-wealth gospel. And what it basically is what we would call in a fancy theological term, overly realized eschatology, and that means, yes, Jesus has brought the kingdom in his incarnation, in his first coming, and he has delivered the decisive blow in the battle against principalities and powers in high places and against all the effects of the fall, sickness, disease, poverty, the things that the fall has brought about. But it doesn't significantly appreciate that the battle still rages and the kingdom hasn't been consummated yet, which causes it to look at poverty or sickness, for instance, as obvious lack of faith, that Jesus has delivered the kingdom to us. And, and so why are you poor? Why are you sick? That's just an indicator of lacking faith, and if you had more faith, you'd be healed, and you wouldn't be... You'd be rich. And, and faith teachers, these name and claim it or health-wealth gospel teachers, have made themselves very rich, often on the backs of poor people who are, who are believing this message that when you give financially to his ministry, that'll be an expression of faith, and God will return that to you financially or with your health. And so it leads people to see themselves as lacking faith if they're sick, which is, l- pretty unhelpful [chuckles] when you're sick or when you're poor. And, and it's, it's just not a right understanding of the Christian life in this fallen world, especially when we consider we follow the man of sorrows familiar with suffering, acquainted with grief, and who said he had nowhere to lay his head. Now, they would come along and say, "Well, he did that for us, so we don't have to." So drive your Bentley because Jesus didn't. And then they'll make stuff up about his clothing that was taken from him being a rich man's g... And, and so it's just a terrible distortion of things that are true in the Bible that doesn't sufficiently appreciate a whole Bible view of it.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I remember talking to some of our friends who are ministering in sub-Sahara Africa, and they said the two most dangerous things for the church, the two things that threaten the gospel the most are, radical Islam and the prosperity gospel-

Erik Thoennes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... That are undermining the health of the church. And I think as I, as I understand it, you correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think there's a, there's a misunderstanding of the Mosaic covenant that's a part of this because the Mosaic covenant was pretty clear that God promised Israel agricultural prosperity and national security as a, as a result of their obedience to God's law. Now, I think we have to recognize we're not under the Mosaic covenant today, and that, you know, that covenant agreement was, for one, it was a national agreement, not necessarily an individual one, so you could have national prosperity and still have people who were poor at the same time. But it did, it did trickle down, I think is a fair way to put it. But-

Erik Thoennes: So that's a great point. Yeah

Scott Rae: ... We're, we're not, we're not under the law today, and God no longer operates under that covenant agreement that he had with the nation of Israel. Now, God may reward our obedience with material prosperity. That, that may be one of the things that happens to us, but it's not something that can be expected nor something that we can claim, hence the sort of name it and claim it version of the prosperity gospel. However, I wonder what you think about this too. I do think sometimes there is a connection between maturity in Christ and a person's prosperity based on things like a work ethic, integrity. You know, we cit- we've cited before that, who would you rather hire and have work for you, somebody characterized by the fruit of the spirit or by the deeds of the flesh? I don- I don't think that's a tough call to make.

Erik Thoennes: Right.

Scott Rae: Now it's not, it's not to say that, you know, that Christian maturity automatically connects to business and workplace savvy, because obviously that's not true. And in the Ol- the Old Testament, it was very clear that, you know, th- praising the prosperity of the wicked and lamenting the poverty of the righteous, and that's something I think that still holds true today. So it's, it's really hard, I think, to make any kind of generalizationAbout the connection between spirituality and prosper- and material prosperity.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah, that's a great point. You, you could also ha-- I said over-realized eschatology, that the kingdom has come, and you don't appreciate that it still awaits its future fulfillment. We can have the opposite problem, too, where we don't suf-sufficiently appreciate what a blessing does come with following God and his ways, and very often that is the case, that your life is richer, you're, you're more healthy. When, when you don't engage in sexual immorality, you have a physical, spiritual, emotional, relational health that shows you, oh, God knows what he's talking about. And so [chuckles] when I obey him, when I walk in his ways, it leads to the most abundant life possible. And blessing often does come, but not necessarily. Sometimes following Jesus faithfully really makes your life tremendously harder. Just ask any of the prophets, ask the Apostle Paul, who lost his head in Rome, and you'll realize that that's not always the case. And so we need to allow for a difference depending on what God has for each of us.

Scott Rae: All right. Good stuff on that. Thanks. Hope, hope that's helpful to our listeners to have a little more... A little deeper dive on the prosperity gospel. Here's the last story, Eric, and it's, it's about the question, are we losing our ability to think? This is from The New York Times, and in the title of this is, "There's a Good Reason You Can't Concentrate."

Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: Now, the article begins with some of the changes in physical health and how they've, they have become commonplace. For example, the ubiquity of diet and exercise being prescribed to lower the risk of heart disease. And the author, I think, who's a... Who's, by the way, a professor of computer science at Georgetown, then makes the application to our minds. Said, "In our current moment, we face a new crisis, one that affects our minds more than our bodies, the negative impact of digital technology on our ability to think." And he goes on to describe, hi- the book he wrote 10 years ago, entitled "Deep Work," where he argued that email and instant messaging were degrading our ability to concentrate on hard mental tasks. He recommended putting aside long stretches of time for uninterrupted thinking and treated this cognitive activity like a skill that you can improve through practice. Okay? He even points out that the term he used to describe this, called deep work, actually entered popular discussion, and he started to hear people in companies use it without realizing that he was the source of it.

Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: But then he puts it like this: "The problems I focused on in 'Deep Work' and in my writing since have been getting steadily worse. In two thousand and sixteen, my main concern was helping people find enough free time for deep work. Today, I think we are rapidly losing the ability to think deeply at all, regardless of how much space we can find in our schedules for these efforts." Now, thankfully, he doesn't do just a diagnosis. He offers a prescription as well. He asked the question, "What's the equivalent of this cardio for our ailing brains?" He said, "A good candidate is reading. Making sense of written text exercises our mind in certain important ways." He says, "We develop what cognitive neuroscientists call deep reading processes that actually rewire and retrain regions of the brain that increase the complexity and nuance that we are able to understand." And he puts it like this: "Deep reading is our species' bridge to insight and novel thought." And I love this suggestion, Eric. He says, "Perhaps consuming a few dozen book pages a day should become the new ten thousand steps, a basic activity to maintain cognitive fitness." Here, another suggestion that he makes is to exercise our brains is to reject the constant companion model of phone use in which we keep our smartphones on us at all times. He suggests something even as simple as charging your phone in a different room than where you are working in or where you're s- you know, where you're relaxing in, so that you're not tempted to look at every time you get a particular notification. And now he suggests with AI not only avoiding things like what are, what are commonly known as work slop and brain fry from overuse of it, and he points out, like, he points out this. He said, "My suspicion is that we often display the-- deploy these tools not because they make us better at our jobs, but because they help us avoid moments of sustained concentration." Now, this is not to say they can't be used for specific tasks, but those that don't undermine our hard thinking. So I'm really curi-- I know you are a big advocate of students reading and, you know, wrestling with text. Our Torrey Honors Program here is well known for having students wrestle with hard texts and do sustained reading and thinking about those. So I'm, I'm curious to hear what you think of this.

Erik Thoennes: Well, I love this article. I think it's really important. I had never thought about the fitness... They called it the fitness craze, but just moving from a sedentary society in the way you and I lived through, we remember the aerobics craze and the jogging craze and there were no fitness centers when I was a kid, and now they're everywhere. And that's really good, but he talks about exercise, but he also talks about [chuckles] nutrition. And he says, "Much of the digital content that ensnares our attention in the current moment is also ultra-processed like a lot of our food is, in that it's the result of vast databases of user-generated content that are sifted, broken down, and recombined by algorithms in a personalized stream designed to be irresistible." [lip smack] And then this great sentence, he says, "What is a TikTok video if not a digital Dorito?" [laughing] That's so great. And he says, "Most people should avoid these diversions most of the time." So, you know, he's saying, "Okay, have a Twinkie, but please don't make a regular diet of it," which is exactly what we've done. And, and just... I thought it was so helpful to compare fitness physically to mental, and I would say emotionally and physical fitness that comes from being a constantly distracted, lacking contemplation, lacking reflection. He talks about Martin Luther King coming to the conclusion of how God would have him spend his life just sitting at his kitchen table, just thinking for a while, and how few people do that anymore. And I was thinking after that, not only can you get inspiration about how to live your life, you also get a healthy sense of your own sin if you allow yourself to sit and reflect on yourself and your life that shows you your need for a savior. We, we are just constantly diverted and distracted, and not a contemplative, not a reflective, not a deep society. And we need to be so radically reacting against this, especially as Christians who need to be deep people, who are willing to not live a steady diet of digital Doritos, but just regain the ability to even read an article like this. It was almost comical to me, 'cause I'm reading the online version of this article you sent to me, at The New York Times website, and all these things keep shooting in from the s-

Scott Rae: That's right

Erik Thoennes: ... From the margins trying [chuckles] to get me to keep from reading an article about concentration. It was, it was just so crazy, as I'm trying to say, "This is insane." But, but that's, that's what the world we live in, and we're just used to it. And, and we've gotta, we've gotta be different. We've gotta be deep-thinking people who don't live on a steady diet of processed information, ultra-processed information.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I just... I wonder what the implication of this for the commandment to love God with our minds.

Erik Thoennes: Oh, yeah.

Scott Rae: And I wonder if this is undercutting our ability to do that well. You know, Eric, I'm really proud of my youngest son on this. I'm gonna give him a shout-out on this, 'cause he has limited his phone screen time to an hour a day- ... And has basically recognized that the YouTube Shorts and the, you know, the sort of t- basically TikTok vi- style videos on YouTube, and those kinds of things that grab your attention really quickly and then move to something else, is something that he needs to avoid as best he can. And I'm real- I'm really encouraged with... He's taken a very courageous stand to do that. And I'm, I'm really proud of him for being able to do that. And I remember my seminary mentor used to say... He was... He would look at us and say, "Men," 'cause he's looking to a group of all guys, "gentlemen, if you're not spending at least 25% of your time thinking, you are systematically kidding yourself that you are a leader."

Erik Thoennes: Wow. Is that Howie Hendricks?

Scott Rae: It was.

Erik Thoennes: Wow.

Scott Rae: And-

Erik Thoennes: I also remember hearing it. [chuckles] You may have heard him say this. A guy asked him, they said, "Prof, how do you do all the things you do?" And he said, "Well, I just don't do most of the things you do." [laughs]

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Erik Thoennes: And it's so true. Everybody's, "I'm so stressed. I got so much going on." Yeah, but you're spending four hours a day looking at cat videos, and so please don't tell me you're, you're-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Erik Thoennes: ... Stressed and too busy, you know? And you know, my son, I have a son. He's 19, and both bragging on our kids, but he's like an old man. He goes on the front porch and sits in a chair and just thinks. It's just amazing. He, he... We'll go out and say, "What are you doing?" He says, "Oh, just thinking about life." And it's, [chuckles] it's so unusual, and a rebuke to me when he does it, that I just love him for it, 'cause he's a great example to us in that. But, but how often do we do that and just allow ourselves a little space to y- actually feel a little bit bored, where our minds are able to go in directions that are fruitful? And even with people, you know? And j- really listening. I say to my students all the time, "We need to recapture the lost art of listening and paying attention, because you can't love people, including God, well if you don't listen well, if you don't pay attention." And so many of us have really lost the ability where we need to regain that ability. You know, the interesting thing, I was thinking about the difference between physical fitness and contemplative fitness, is your lack of physical fitness shows up in diabetes and obesity for all to see. But I think one of the big challenges with what we're talking about is it's not nearly as evident when you can't climb a flight of stairs mentally, right? When, when you-

Scott Rae: Right

Erik Thoennes: ... Can't really think. And so I think we're, we're not quite as aware of the effects as we are physical when we're, we're eroding our contemplative abilities without the ability to just actually, like you said, just sit and read a book for a while in peace. And, and so I think that's one of the things we need to be aware of, is the evidence for this erosion isn't as obvious as lack of physical fitness.

Scott Rae: No, that's a great point. And I think, y- Eric, we have to admit, you know, there are... You know, we're not suggesting that people go cold turkey off these things, you know, and go back to, you know, reading books by candlelight.

Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: But, I... And I think some of the changes that our author is suggesting here, I think are... Those are gonna be really tough changes. I think f- especially for the generation that's grown up on smartphones and the coming one that will grow up on AI. And I think the... One of the evidences of this is that the data shows us that lots and lots of students finish high school and get into college without ever having read a book from cover to cover.

Erik Thoennes: Yep.

Scott Rae: And I th- I think there... I bet if we took a poll of our st- of our students here, that might be a sizable number. Um-

Erik Thoennes: Yeah, and I know our biblical interpretation and spiritual formation classes that all our freshmen have to take here, there's a big focus on spiritual disciplines. AndAnd so fasting is one of them, and they can choose what they fast from. A-and the social media fast, I'm told by those profs, by far is the excruciating one for students-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Erik Thoennes: ... That they feel the loss of most, and for the first time sometimes come to the realization of just how addicted they are to this, and it's, it's a real important awakening for them. I was just talking to a student recently who said over last summer, he s- he gave up his smartphone. He g- he got a phone that just does texts and email and actually directions, which is helpful, and he said he's never been happier. He's so thankful. So I actually think for some people, cold turkey's necessary to even get some distance initially. Like anything you're overly consumed with, I think there can be wisdom in saying, "All right. My friends are all gonna be mad at me, but I'm just... I'm going cold turkey. I'm getting a dumb phone. I'm, I'm..." And he even says if the phone's in the same room with you, that he cited a study, it's harder to concentrate. U-unless you put it out of reach in another room, you're drawn to it, even if it's in the same room and that sort of accessibility. So I want to encourage people to be realistic about what they actually need to actually break free and become a deeper person.

Scott Rae: Fair enough. All right. Good s- good stuff to think about here. Erik, before we go to questions, wanna tell our listeners we would love to have you come study with us at Talbot. We've got programs in apologetics and philosophy and spiritual formation, Old and New Testament, systematic theology, marriage and family therapy, Christian ministry and leadership, lots of terrific programs. Want you to be sure and visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more about those. All right, let's take on a couple questions here. I think we got, we got time for some questions. Here's the first one: "Thank you so much for your podcast. It's always fascinating to listen to." Glad to hear that. Maybe we should just take that as a win and move on to the next question.

Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: But, I'd like to ask a question about decolonization theory. Many Christians enco- and Christians encounter this in psychology and education and feel, like, unsure whether it conflicts with the biblical understanding of truth and authority. How would you help us think biblically about decolonization without siding into relativism or rejecting the idea of truth altogether? You got anything on that?

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. So I just wanna be sure... I'm not... I wish this person was here so I could ask for clarification exactly what she means by it. But d-do you think this is talking about colonization as in moving into an area and colonizing it with a Christian worldview instead of appreciating the culture sufficiently?

Scott Rae: No.

Erik Thoennes: Oh, okay.

Scott Rae: It's about, it's particularly... Y-yeah, it's about decolonization, especially its critique of Western dominance.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Okay.

Scott Rae: So it's like the, you know, it's like the, you know, the Portuguese going into Brazil and the Spaniards going into Latin America and-

Erik Thoennes: Right

Scott Rae: ... In part with the gospel, but,

Scott Rae: m-maybe not so much.

Erik Thoennes: Okay. Yeah. So wh-when I think of Christian culture that's informed by the Bible, we wanna take that everywhere it goes, while at the same time appreciating things about a culture that don't conflict with scripture or actually are helpful to us coming out of our culture to understand things even better. And so I am thankful Gladys Aylward went to China and sought to make foot binding of young girls illegal, or efforts Christians have made to made s- make sati illegal in India and actually speak into this culture from a Christian perspective prophetically as well. And so I think there is something we would recognize as culture that is created that is distinctively Christian. I... That's what I think we're trying to do here at Biola in some ways and in my local church. I want us to be different in ways informed by Christian thinking. In light of our last conversation even, I want the subculture in my church to have a longer attention span in here at Biola than the average person in our society. And so I think the value of Christian principles without imposing them in ways that aren't distinctively Christian, you know, the dress or music or, as those sorts of things. And so I don't want to impose a Western view of things, but I do want to bring the influence of a Christian culture into whatever culture I'm in, including this one. So I don't know if that's hitting the target of the question.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think that, I think that... Yeah, that's helpful. I think some of it is just a, it's a view of history and the need to tell the truth about the past, but some of, colonization, decolonization is id-ideologically based, framed by critical theory, and looks at these through the lenses of oppressor and oppressed. Now, I think there are ugly things about a colonial past for some Western nations, but also some benefits. And so I think... I... What I get uneasy about is sort of what you suggest, is how these colonizing efforts and Christianity got intertwined in ways that tarnish the gospel message.

Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: And c- that conversion to Christianity often meant conversion to Western ways that were not n-necessarily entailments of Christian faith.

Erik Thoennes: Right.

Scott Rae: And of course, when conversion came by force, you know, that's an ugly side of it that, I think we need to tell the truth about.

Erik Thoennes: Right. For sure. Yeah. A-a-and so we don't want to w-whitewash our history or make-

Scott Rae: Right

Erik Thoennes: ... Ourselves better than we actually were, and at the same time recognize the incredible contributions of Christians all over the world. And it's amazing to me, all... I'm... You know, when I've traveled around the world, I, everywhere I go, there's a hospital, a school, and a church that Christians have built.That is just amazing to see and the-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Erik Thoennes: ... Contribution to art. And so yes, recognize the ugly things that the church has been responsible for, but not minimize the positives either.

Scott Rae: Hear, hear. All right, here's a second one. "I grew up Southern Baptist, strongly considered converting to Orthodoxy a few years ago. I didn't, but the lack of one-on-one discipleship and biblical illiteracy is, in the American Protestant church, is one of the main reasons for the Gen Z trend toward Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I've recently learned that the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 18:10, Hebrews 1:14 teaches that all humans have guardian angels. My question is, why aren't guardian angels or specifically demons and spiritual beings more generally addressed in most Protestant church teachings? Are there other interpretations of these two passages? Do you think we have guardian angels, and if so, what should we do with this knowledge?"

Scott Rae: Maybe just focus on that last part. Do you think we have guardian angels, and if so, what do we do with that?

Erik Thoennes: I don't think so, but it's possible. I do think we can minimize... Angels are a significant reality in the Bible, in they're given charge of nations, they're giving, given charge of individuals at times. But, but I don't, I don't think there's sufficient evidence to say each of us has our own guardian angel, although I think it's safe to say God's representatives as messengers and protectors are a role they play in our lives, and I think it's good and right to pray that God will send angels. I think even the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant aspects of it are an overemphasis on angels, where we even start praying to them or venerating them, and maybe we've had an overreaction, failing to appreciate them sufficiently. But, but I do think we need to appreciate how significant angels are in the Bible witha- and at the same time, not let them at all take the place of God as the ultimate source of every good thing that we have.

Scott Rae: Hear, hear. Thank you. I'm glad we have a professional theologian to address that question with cl- with clarity and coherence. So I hope, I hope that's helpful for this particular listener. And we'll, we will look forward to ano- to a response back, on that if you have other questions about that. Eric, all good stuff. So appreciate your reflections on this stuff. It's great having you with us and, filling in for Sean today.

Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott. Happy to be here. Oh, and you... Speaking of the Protestant, Catholic, you and Sean did a great episode with Fred Sanders on Protestantism and why we're Protestant that I would recommend the listeners listen to in light of the beginning of that last question.

Scott Rae: Yeah, appreciate that. All right. This has been the Think Biblically Weekly Cultural Update, coming to you from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we've got master's programs and bachelor's programs in all sorts of areas. We encourage you to visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask questions, make suggestions to us, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app, and please feel free to share it with a friend. And join us on Tuesday for Sean and my discussion of a fascinating and somewhat disturbing book entitled Pornocracy: An Inside Look at the Porn Industry. Thanks for listening, and in the meantime, remember, think biblically about everything. [outro music]