Biola University
Why have so many “time saving” devices actually not saved us any time? How do you know if your devices work for you or you work for them? What guidance is there for an appropriate use of AI? We’ll answer these questions and more with our guest, Dr. Trevor Sutton, pastor and professor specializing in the intersection of theology and technology.
A. Trevor Sutton is senior pastor at St. Luke Lutheran Church in Lansing, Mich., and teaches theology at Concordia University–Irvine. Sutton has written several books, including Redeeming Technology (coauthored with Brian Smith, M.D.) and Authentic Christianity (coauthored with Gene Edward Veith Jr).
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] Why have so many time-saving devices actually not saved us any time at all? How do you know if your devices actually work for you, or you work for them? And what guidance is there for an appropriate use of artificial intelligence? We'll answer these questions and a whole lot more with our guest today, Dr. Trevor Sutton, pastor, professor, and author, specializing in the intersection of theology and technology. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and this is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Trevor, welcome. Really glad to have you with us. So appreciate your emphasis and what you bring to this conversation, so really glad to have you-
Trevor Sutton: Absolutely
Scott Rae: ... With us.
Trevor Sutton: I'm, I'm excited to have the conversation.
Scott Rae: Tell us a little bit about what generated your interest in this connection between theology and technology, because you're trained, I take it, as a, as sort of a classic systematic theologian, but this is a, an, a bit novel application of theology that you don't see every day. So what sparked your interest in pursuing this a little bit further?
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, I stumbled on it. Was not trying to find it. So I'm a parish pastor, did a Master's of Divinity, was serving a congregation in Lansing, Michigan, where I'm still serving. We're in the shadows of Michigan State University. A lot of my congregation, you know, has connections to the university, so pretty quickly after starting to serve in that parish, it became obvious that having an advanced degree from that school would've been helpful, and so I found a program, at Michigan State. It was called, Digital Rhetoric and Professional Writing. And I was very intrigued by the professional writing side of it. Prior to starting the parish, I'd done journalism and, been a writer. The digital rhetoric thing, I sorta did like you did. I was like, "Huh, okay." [chuckles] But I came for, came for B, and I found A. [chuckles] I came for the professional writing part of that program, and I found the digital rhetoric side of it. And that was a master's, degree, and really, what digital rhetoric is... People always ask, "What, what on earth is that?" That is exploring how communication or discourse is digitally mediated. And, and it was kind of, not to oversell it, but it was kind of a Paul-on-the-road-to-Damascus kind of thing, where once I got into the program, once I started reading and exploring this topic, kind of the scales fell off, and I said, "Oh, my goodness, so much of our communication, our discourse, the way that we think, the way that we, you know, engage in theology, so much of this is mediated." And that's not saying it's good [chuckles] or bad. It's just sort of a statement of reality of, there's a whole lot of mediation going on in our communication, and so we better start putting our arms around this to think, you know, biblically about it, think theologically about it, ask thoughtful, critical questions. So that was maybe about 13 years ago-
Scott Rae: Okay
Trevor Sutton: ... That I sort of started in this field, putting, you know, my theological background into conversation with the technological background. That led me then to a PhD in Doctrinal Theology, with an emphasis in the Philosophy of Technology-
Scott Rae: Very good.
Trevor Sutton: -uh, online worship, in particular.
Scott Rae: Very good. Now, you raised the question, it's a very provocative question. It says: Do our devices... And I take it by devices, you mean just phones, screens, tablets-
Trevor Sutton: Yep, that's a good place to start
Scott Rae: ... Computers.
Trevor Sutton: Sure.
Scott Rae: But it- I'm sure there's other things, too, but do our- do our devices work for us, or do we work for them?
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Very provocative. And how do you know, what are the signs that tell you that you, that you are actually working for your devices and not the other way around?
Trevor Sutton: As a... I appreciate that question, and I wish I had a more thoughtful, deeper answer to it, but I do think there's kind of a visceral answer to it, and that visceral answer is that really, we have this dissatisfaction with our devices, and that right there tells me there's something going on in this question, because we want these devices, and like you said, there's a more technical definition of devices. We can draw on philosophy of technology, but just very practically, just like you said, our smartphones, our smartwatches, our laptops, our screens, you know, all of those things, we want them, we desire them, we need them. But if you ask 10 people, "Hey, how do you feel about this?" Most of them are gonna say something about, "Eh, it's an antagonistic relationship. I'm not thoroughly satisfied. I don't really appreciate this. I wish I could have less of this in my life." And so just that experience right there, of we want these, we need them, we're, we're, we're dependent on them, and we have a problematic relationship, that tells me there's something going on here.
Scott Rae: That's a good, that's a good observation. I wonder, I wonder if maybe the question might be to pose to folks: How, how would you fare- ... If you had a device-free day?
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Or, or, a, you know, a, maybe a fa- a couple days fast-
Trevor Sutton: Yep
Scott Rae: ... From your devices. I suspect most people would probably not take that well.
Trevor Sutton: Absolutely, and that's one of the things that I, kind of drawing on scrip- on scripture, is the practice of fasting. And in my, you know, teaching on this and interaction on it, I really like to help people think, what does it look like to fast, you know, whether it's during a period of the day or a period of the week, or even fasting... This is a weird way of thinking of fasting, but, like, spatially fasting. So for a period of time, I'm gonna move this thing into a different location, and move this, you know, TV out of my bedroom into the living room. Or when I come in the house, put my phone here and not keep it in my pocket, which I know is a stretch for fasting, but it's, it's a way we can kind of draw onto that idea of, I'm going to exert distance, [chuckles] exert a-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: ... Agency, exert, self-control.
Scott Rae: ... Well, it may be that some people need baby steps-
Trevor Sutton: 100%
Scott Rae: -to get started with that.
Trevor Sutton: Yep. Yep.
Scott Rae: Now, you had a really interesting part of your presentation here at Acton University was when you discussed an early- ... Technological intervention with which has had profound societal implications, and it's, that's the clock.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And so what i- what's been the impact of the clock in its shaping our approach to time? You know, especially given, as you describe, what the original intention of the clock was related to worship.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah. No, it's great. Kind of drawing on Augustine, you know, Augustine's got this great line about time, that if you ask me what time is, I can tell you. If you ask me what time is, I have no idea. [laughs]
Scott Rae: [laughs]
Trevor Sutton: You know, it's this idea that, like, we understand time, and then you double-click on that, and you really don't really understand time. And I think clocks are kind of the same way, right? Like, everybody sees clocks, they wear them on their wrist, they have them all over the place. We know next to nothing of the history of clocks [chuckles] and how did they come to be, how did they become so ubiquitous in society and this technology that's, that's, what philosophers of technology would call like a background technology. It's just there. It's like air conditioning. You know, you don't think about it, but you look at it 30, 40 times in the day. So it's not as front and center as your phone. But anyway, the history of the clock is fascinating. And I'm not a historian of that particular technology, but just tracking a little bit with it, major players in the history of the mechanical clock were the Benedictine monks.
Scott Rae: Really?
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, and the Benedictine monks, trying to order their community, order their communal life, order their day around work and worship. And so the clock was ordered, or was used to, you know, clocks and bells, to, bring you to worship, [chuckles] to bring you to work, bring you back to worship, you know, and continue your labors. They even made some time-saving devices beyond the clock. But it's really fascinating, you look at the history of the clock, Benedictine monks are kind of all over it. And what I find interesting about that, apart from just the historical interest, is the origin of the clock, it had a telos or an aim, or it ha- it was situated within eternity. It wasn't just... You know, when I talked to my session, it wasn't just, horizontal time, [chuckles] and it wasn't the work-a-day time of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, 8:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m. It was really time intersecting with eternity, time intersecting with worship, time intersecting with God and with the redemption we have in Jesus. And so it's really captured my imagination to think, how can we see a clock and not just see the linear passage of time, but how can our clocks help us see time and eternity or this rhythm of work and worship?
Scott Rae: Yeah, no, that's, that's such a good insight in terms of the way clocks were originally designed- -to connect us to God and to ensure that we made space in our lives to do that regularly. It seems like clocks do something-
Trevor Sutton: [laughs]
Scott Rae: -quite the opposite today.
Trevor Sutton: We are.
Scott Rae: Tell us a little bit about more about the, you know, how has that shaped our approach to time today? And I think, I think you're right. It is just part of the air that we breathe.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But usually, the air that we breathe is also the th- some of the things that have shaped us the most deeply.
Trevor Sutton: Absolutely. And I'm, I'm just really curious in the, phrases and language we put around time, so we are obsessed, and I think our devices are hugely- they're marketed to us as this. We are obsessed with saving time, you know, this idea of saving time, and maybe 'cause I'm a theologian, but boy, there's, there's soteriological language there, right? [chuckles] Salvation, saving.
Scott Rae: Yes. Yeah.
Trevor Sutton: We, we desperately want to save this thing, but then what do we do? We turn around and we use the very same devices to kill time, and it's just fascinating to me that-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: ... That-
Scott Rae: Or, or to waste time.
Trevor Sutton: That's what I mean, yeah.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, and it's fascinating that there's a massive market, there's a massive interest in both saving time and killing time, and these devices are, you know, carried around with us for both of those things. What I'm really intrigued by is, can we inject new language into that? Ephesians 5:16, you know, making the best use of the time, or and I don't often use this translation, but the King James has a beautiful way of putting it, redeeming time.
Scott Rae: Right.
Trevor Sutton: And I just love that idea of redeeming time-
Scott Rae: That's, that's your salvation language.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, exactly!
Scott Rae: Right. Gotcha.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, yeah. And so it's kind of neat where, again, as a theologian, maybe, or a rhetorician, I don't know, but I just wonder, is there this innate sense within all of us that time needs to be saved? And, and does that, in some way, then, you know, point us to Jesus and the one who has redeemed time, not just, linear time and horizontal time-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: ... But vertical time, you know, eternal time. And, yeah, all that from a clock, right? [laughs]
Scott Rae: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sure you're aware of this because you've studied this more than I have, but the word for time used in Ephesians 5 is actually not the term chronos-
Trevor Sutton: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... For chronological, but the term kairos.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, yeah.
Scott Rae: Which is for, I think, best translated as make the most of the opportunity.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And, you know, kairos in ancient, in the- to the ancient Greeks, as you know, was the little god with the shock of hair in the back.
Trevor Sutton: Yep.
Scott Rae: And you- he ran at you full speed ahead, and you did the best you could to try and grab it.
Trevor Sutton: [laughs]
Scott Rae: And most of the time, you couldn't.
Trevor Sutton: Yep, yep.
Scott Rae: And so it, but it refers more to not missing out on opportunities. So how does that connect with our view of time and how clocks integrate into that?
Trevor Sutton: I, yeah, I think that's exactly right, and I think as I've wrestled with this more and talked more on the topic and then connecting it to devices, really what I think we're struggling with is a truncated-... View of time and a truncated view of our devices. And it's sort of like, you know, truncated or myopic or sh- or nearsighted or something like that, where we're just seeing one dimension of it, but not the fullness of it. And that's where, again, I think, time and time again, I think, thinking biblically or the resources of Christian theology need to be brought to bear into these conversations because there is just simply a dynamic that won't be had otherwise. And, and what's going to invite us to think hieratically about time, apart from eternity?
Scott Rae: Yeah, probably not much.
Trevor Sutton: I, [chuckles] I can't-
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Trevor Sutton: I'm not expecting Apple to help us lift our gaze higher. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: No. No. So here's- maybe this just, think with me about this for a moment. We have so many time-save, time-saving devices, yet we have less time on our hands than we've ever had before in the history of civilization.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Why is that?
Trevor Sutton: I think we've lost the narrative, is kind of what I've suggested to people. That, that just like you're describing, the progress of our devices has gone up and up and up, or we have more and more and more of these, but if you ask your typical person, "Do you have more time for leisure? Do you have more time for laughter? Do you have more time for reflection? Do you have more time for, I don't know, a long, unhurried worship service? [chuckles] do you have more time for, a neighbor, interrupting you from what you were planning to do, to just care for that neighbor?" Like, most people are going to say, "No, I don't have more time for that." And that tells me somehow the promises that have been made to us about these devices, or the tacit assumption we have when we buy them and put them around us, somehow it's failed. And that's where I think, I think we need, what I talked about in my session is, not seeking technological fixes to technological problems. Or one scholar, Shannon Vallor, she talks about it like, digging your way out of a hole. [chuckles] you can't do that, right? And so we need something to, flip the script or change the paradigm. And again, I think that's where thinking biblically, thinking theologically on this, bringing, resources beyond horizontal time, beyond just the ubiquity of the devices that we use, we need something else. And of course, I think that's, that's the revelation of Scripture-
Scott Rae: Yes
Trevor Sutton: ... That's the good news of the Gospel, that's the hope of redemption, you know, in Christ Jesus for the life of the world, but also in our own lives. I think that's, that's the skeleton key that helps us, you know, as I've talked about it before, it helps us have an unhurried relationship with time.
Scott Rae: All right, let's be a little more specific about this. I think our listeners would wanna know, "How, how do I, how do I get started making this work?"
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: What, what specific steps would you recommend to make it happen so that your devices actually work for you instead of vice versa?
Trevor Sutton: Yep. I appreciate that. One of the things is, we have to recognize these devices are all designed. Somebody has designed them to be used in a particular way. And oftentimes, they're, they're, they're designed for, you know, user experience, maximizing that. More nefariously, they're, they're designed for addiction [chuckles] and they're designed for maximum engagement, you know, and that sort of thing. But because they're designed, I think we can then use our own agency to not quite redesign them, but exert that agency on them. So a very practical thing that I often like to tell people: setting your phone to grayscale is one of the easiest things you can do. I don't suggest leaving your phone on grayscale all the time, unless you're a glutton for punishment. You're welcome to do that. But when you put your phone on grayscale, what it does is your brain is addicted to the colors. It's been designed into the whole interface, but your brain is addicted to the colors. When you put it on grayscale, it short-circuits that addiction. You don't get that dopamine hit from the colors. And what really ends up happening, you start using your phone for the purposes for which you have a phone. [chuckles] You call people, you send simple text messages, but no longer than is necessary. You may check urgent emails, but not writing, you know, War and Peace on your phone.
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: And doomscrolling and zombiew scrolling, you know, on social media stops. And that's just a really simple way when you find yourself, addicted to this more than you want to be. And that's- I like that idea because it's not me saying, "Throw your phone out the, out the window."
Scott Rae: Right.
Trevor Sutton: It's not saying, you know, "Get rid of it." but it is saying, "Here's a simple way that you can exert some agency against it, or redesign it in a small way." I have my phone set so that with a triple click, it instantly goes to grayscale. And so really, on the fly or throughout the day, if I need to focus or if I find myself, you know, maybe checking it more than I ought, putting it on grayscale for an hour short-circuits that whole thing.
Scott Rae: Works.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah. So I think that's, that's one of the easiest, practical kind of things.
Scott Rae: All right, and you also suggest periodic techno fasts.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Correct.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: How do you get started on that?
Trevor Sutton: It's very simple. I think one of the ways that you... The, the first step to the fasting thing would really be what some people call, a, an, a technology audit, and that is, in some way finding, counting something that is relevant to you related to your devices.... So many phones actually do this. It tells you screen time usage.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Trevor Sutton: You can do that. If you really wanna, you know, be, sadistic, you can, count how many times you turn on your phone in the day, like unlock it, and that kind of thing, and just have a piece of paper and a tally mark. You can do that. You can count how many internet-connected devices you have in your home, whatever it is you wanna do, but do an audit. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: This is all much too convicting. [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: I know. I know. We'll, we'll get to Jesus, but we're talking about the institution of the law here first, right? But you can do that audit, and then I think just ask the question, whether it's by yourself or, you know, with, family or something like that, but ask the question: "Yeah, what do I think about this? Is this an appropriate number? Is this right? Is this good?" Whatever, and then thoughtfully say: "What would it look like for, a day of my week, or a period of my day, or something like that, to be free of screens?" or I think that the idea of fasting, it can be even smaller than that, and I'll tell you kind of a personal example. I found for a period of time that I would wake up... My phone's my alarm clock, like many people. I would wake up, the very first thing, and I joke with people that I'm, I'm so habituated, I'm, I'm like a well-trained lab rat-
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: ... That the first 10 things I do in the morning are identical every morning. And I would wake up, and almost immediately, I'm embarrassed how almost immediately, but the, one of the first things I was doing was checking my email. And it was one of those things where as I thought about that, I just thought, "That is horrible." [chuckles]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: "That is, that is just a horrible existence to open my eyes, and this is the first thing I do." So whether you wanna call it a fast or you wanna call it, redesigning or a change-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: ... But I said, "You know what? The first thing I'm gonna do is..." my congregation has a big emphasis on personal Bible reading and daily Bible reading. "The first thing I'm gonna do, the second I wake up, I'm starting my audio Bible, while I'm drinking my coffee, four chapters of the Bible. After that, after I've had my coffee, after I've started the Word of God, then I spend some time on Duolingo-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: ... Learning a new language. After that, okay, then maybe I'll get to checking my email." But it was a very intentional order of operation.
Scott Rae: That's good.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, and I just... It was a really-- And like I said, I'm such a habit person [chuckles] that if I made that change for a week, it stuck.
Scott Rae: Yeah. No, that's very practical.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: I think very helpful.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And so those are those, I think, some good steps, I think, that our listeners will appreciate if they find themselves in the same kind of dilemma and have, I think, have the courage to admit- [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... That that's where they are.
Trevor Sutton: I'm, I'm right there with everybody else, so.
Scott Rae: Now, one of the devices you've thought a lot about is artificial intelligence, and you've given us what you call AI maps. So just briefly tell us what you mean by that, and how is that helpful in understanding what AI brings to the table?
Trevor Sutton: So AI maps, these are not maps made by AI, but rather AI maps, what I mean by that is conceptual frameworks or visualizations to help us think through artificial intelligence. And, and I literally, I mean, this is something you could draw on a whiteboard in a meeting, in a classroom, or in a church board meeting. This is something you could draw on a napkin, you know, having coffee with a friend. But, but a framework to visualize some aspect of artificial intelligence, and I don't mean how it works. I'm not talking about, you know, here's a schematic for how AI works. What I mean is, these are frameworks, visual frameworks, that enable us to view something about the way AI is being deployed in the world around us.
Scott Rae: I see.
Trevor Sutton: And that's really what maps are, right? Like, there's the territory, and the territory is the thing, but we use a map, which is a representation of the territory, and we use maps for specific purposes. Like, there are road maps, and there are topographical maps, and there are, you know, underground cable maps, and natural resource maps, and one of those won't help you navigate the road [chuckles] .
Scott Rae: That's right.
Trevor Sutton: You know? Like...
Scott Rae: Right
Trevor Sutton: ... You can't use the underground cable map for the road, but it's a emphasizing one thing to help you see something that's maybe hard to see in the territory itself.
Scott Rae: Okay.
Trevor Sutton: And, yeah.
Scott Rae: That's helpful. Now, you described, there are a couple technical terms that you used that I, that I found very helpful. And so I want a listener- I want our listeners to hear about those. The Gartner Hype Cycle is one concept that I found very enlightening. How- what is that, and how is that helpful in understanding AI?
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, so in some of these maps, you know, I'm not the sole originator of these. One of them is coming out of my PhD dissertation, but the Gartner Hype Cycle, it comes from a company, Gartner, and they do, technology consulting, and I think we can kind of tweak what they have. It's also interesting what this hype cycle, it looks like a lot of other maps that have been drawn in different fields. So I think it's really kind of revealing not just something about new technologies, not just something about,
Trevor Sutton: Any AI, it kind of reveals something about humans. [chuckles] And what it is this new thing happens, and collectively or individualistically, there's a swell in expectation or a swell in hype, and before long, very quickly, it's sort of like, [exhales] this changes everything. But pretty soon, then what happens is, you fall into this, trough, [chuckles] trough of disillusionment, this downward decline of you kind of realize, "Oh, maybe not. [chuckles] maybe this thing is more glitchy than we thought it was. Maybe it's, it's not gonna change the world the way we thought it would. You know, maybe it's, not what we expected." But then what happens is, iteratively, slowly, progress is made where it-... Increases its ability and gets better and better. And so it's, it's kinda like a rollercoaster, [chuckles] where when a new technology comes out, there's an immediate hype. And you see this in the headlines all the time, like, "AI-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: Is going to change the world."
Scott Rae: This is a game changer.
Trevor Sutton: This is a game changer yesterday, and you're behind. [chuckles] You know, and there's this hype. And then y- we also see this where, you know, AI-generated images and there's a person, and they've got, you know, three eyes or-
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: ... You know, an extra thumb or something like that, and that's that disillusionment of like, "Really? This is the thing that's gonna change it all." But also, what happens, we have to be open to the incremental improvements after that disillusionment. And so I just find that to be very helpful, especially for something practical, like reading the headlines or, you know, water cooler conversation with people, where when you hear this hype, you know, kinda jokingly, I say like, "Well, keep your shirt on." Like, it's- [chuckles]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: ... It's not gonna change it today, but realistically, we should say over time-
Scott Rae: May-
Trevor Sutton: There will be change coming.
Scott Rae: Maybe so.
Trevor Sutton: Exactly. Yeah.
Scott Rae: Okay. Now, how is that...? You also talk about, nothing called Amara's Law. And tell us a little bit about that and how that relates to what you've just said.
Trevor Sutton: They, they are pretty similar, talking about slightly different things. But a technology scholar, a Roy Amara, he says this, that the tendency is when new technologies come out, we overestimate the impact, which is kind of a form of hype.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Trevor Sutton: We overestimate the impact in the short term, and we underestimate the impact in the long term. So, we say, the, a great example of this is really the printing press. There were people, when the printing press came out, they were arguing, "This is the end of reading."
Scott Rae: Oh! [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: Yeah. [chuckles] This is the end of reading. This is the end of books because-
Scott Rae: I always thought, I always thought it was the beginning of reading. [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: Well, in the short term, the impact being overblown.
Scott Rae: Yes.
Trevor Sutton: And it was the idea that like, if writing and books can be so cheaply had, like, it's just gonna be trash, it's gonna be garbage.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Trevor Sutton: Nobody's gonna care. And so, like, the scriptoriums and writing houses, many of them were sorta arguing like, "All right, fine, but it's your death, right? [chuckles] It's your funeral," in the short term. So it was overblown. And what do we find is, historically, that a lot of these writing houses, these scriptoriums, they were, continuing to do their work. People were still paying them to do what they were doing, as a lot of them were getting printing presses, [chuckles] as they were learning a new trade, a new skill. So the fears were overblown in the short term. And then you, like you mentioned, then you realize, you know, Gutenberg's invention changed the world in the long term, and the paradigm shift over time was underestimated. And so I think that's another helpful way to think of AI, is again, these emerging technologies, in the short term, we can't expect them to change everything in a month, even though the headlines read like that. But it is wise to kinda stay the course in the short term, while planning and recognizing that a brave new world-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: ... [chuckles] may be there too in the future. And so that tension or that paradox of staying the course and planning for a paradigm shift.
Scott Rae: I think that's, that's a really helpful balance, to keep from being sucked in by the hype, but also not get caught off guard and having been left behind-
Trevor Sutton: Yep
Scott Rae: ... If something does ki- you know, come to pass in the way that, people are thinking it might.
Trevor Sutton: And I think it's, it's helpful for churches, for institutions of higher education, all of them, to kinda... How do you plan for both of these things at the same time?
Scott Rae: Yeah, now, you're trained as a theologian. How does your theology inform your own engagement with artificial intelligence?
Trevor Sutton: That's a great question, a difficult one to kinda reduce down singularly. I do think a place to start, one of the insights I've, I've just continued to bring to bear from theology into technology... And I come from the Lutheran tradition, and Martin Luther talks, in his explanation of the First Commandment. He says, "A, a God is whatever you fear, love, and trust in above all else." And I find that just to be helpful as kind of a litmus test when it comes to AI, or devices, whatever you wanna think about. But if you fear, love, and trust in it above all else, maybe you've got a god, [chuckles] a false god, an idol. But the other side of it's kinda curious, too. Like AI, there's so much fear around that, and it's kinda curious that if you ultimately fear AI, and when I say ultimately, I mean, like, in an ultimate sense, it, too, has become your god in some weird way. That it gets the final word [chuckles] on all things. And so I just, I do think that there's a spirit-filled breath [chuckles] that theology brings into conversations about technology, a spirit-filled breath that theology brings into to conversations about AI, that helps us kind of keep it in its proper place.
Scott Rae: Oh, and would that we had a little bit more of that when it came to AI-
Trevor Sutton: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... At present.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And I think that's, that's the part that's being left out.
Trevor Sutton: Absolutely.
Scott Rae: And that's on... I think that's on us, as the Church, to speak into it with, you know, with relevance and with timeliness, but also theologically embedded-
Trevor Sutton: Yep
Scott Rae: ... With what we're doing.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, not li- not leaning away from these conversations because they're scary or difficult, but leaning into them.
Scott Rae: Yeah, which I think one reason why I hope our listeners appreciate the background that you bring theologically and the application of that, just particularly to technology, so needed today. One, one final question for you. Let's, le- again, let's be specific about this. What, what kind of guidance would you have for those who are kinda wondering? You know, they're sort of dabbling with AI. It looks, it looks promising, but they're just sort of wondering about what's, what's the appropriate use? ... Of AI, 'cause I can think of lots of things that we don't wanna do with it, but I think our listeners probably could use some help with some of the things that you would suggest are appropriate uses, and how to, and how to tell the difference.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, an appropriate use, this comes out of my parish experience. I serve at a multi-ethnic congregation. We have worship services in English, Arabic, and in Swahili.
Scott Rae: Wow!
Trevor Sutton: That poses some logistical problems, right? [chuckles] there are other, pastors in my congregation that lead the Swahili service, that lead the Arabic worship service. But when we come together in a unified service, that's difficult. If... As the senior pastor, if I wanna bring greetings across those different communities, that's, that's a challenge. And so one of the things that's really fascinating about AI is the advances that it's provided for real-time language translation. And there's, a whole burgeoning field of that a speaker can speak in one language, and in real-time, closed caption or even audio captions, of that language. Is it perfect? No, not 100%, but again, that's kind of that-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Trevor Sutton: ... Plateau of progress we were talking about, that it's good, and iteratively, it'll get better. Are there problems with that, privacy and issues? Sure, things we need to consider. But I think practically, in my own experience, that's the thing that I've found, is using AI for that sort of thing. And then I think it's also... Another practical thing would be this: I'm really one for... I find myself being kind of evangelistic about this. The uncritical acceptance of AI is problematic, as is the uncritical rejection of it. [chuckles] So uncritically accepting it and just jumping in, and uncritically rejecting it, and that's where I really- I think one of the best things we can do as the Church is, engage, reflect, converse, engage, reflect, converse in that kind of iterative way.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Trevor Sutton: And you can always stop [chuckles] at some point there if you say, "You know what? In- upon our reflection, this engagement's problematic." but I think a total avoidance can be problematic, especially in the sense of, if you know little about something, you're only gonna go know less and less about it, [chuckles] right? And so I think, I think we need to, as leaders in the Church and thinkers in the Church, we need to find ways that we can engage, but having that coupled with thinking biblically, thinking theologically, reflecting, conversing. And I think a lot of ways, the history of the Church kind of bears that out, right? Like, how has, how did the Church formulate its Trinitarian language? [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Trevor Sutton: Right?
Scott Rae: Only took, only took them 400 years. [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: Only took them 400 years, but it was a lot of councils-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: ... A lot of engagement, a lot of trial and error. And they didn't get it right on the first try, and, well, there's some heresies, you know, and that sort of thing. And so I think, I think that's... We have other models that we might be able to draw from.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Well, that's really helpful, 'cause I think that the trial-and-error model, I think, is very appropriate here. [lips smack] and I worry about people being sucked into something that they can't control their use of. I'm sort of curious, too, just one, well, like, one, like, this last thing.
Trevor Sutton: One final thing, right?
Scott Rae: Yeah. What, what do you tell your students about the appropriate use of AI, from prof to prof here?
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: I'm kind of curious about that.
Trevor Sutton: Absolutely. Yeah, so I think from a researching standpoint, we think be engaging AI to, i- you know, in rhetoric, we talks about- talk about that as, the invention process. And when I say invention, it's, it's the researching. You know, when you are googling something, in a lot of ways, you're already engaging AI in that. So I think as professors, we need to kind of ask the question, "What do we even mean by AI?" and so from a research side or what's out there, and synthesizing all this data, that's helpful. But from a, creation side, a content creation side, that's where suddenly, relying on this tool to create our content is very problematic. So I think there's greater opportunities, I tell my students, from researching what's out there, and when I say researching, I don't just mean doing all that work for you, but I just mean, help me understand the field.
Scott Rae: Gather, gather.
Trevor Sutton: Gather the information.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Trevor Sutton: And then you gotta vet that information, because generative AI does a lot of hallucinating. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: Right? So verify that the books you think you're using are actual books, but it's really just a helpful rough-and-ready, what's out there? And then I, bringing my own wisdom to bear, my own knowledge to bear, vet that, but then the creation, has to be your own. I think there's another thing for faculty and professors, and so forth, that this is going to force us to maybe find new ways to evaluate. And I think in a lot of ways, AI and generative AI is gonna bring back, oral evaluation.
Scott Rae: Oh, I hope so.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah. But I mean, you can... There can be a paper, or you can spend eight minutes with a student talking, and, you will know-
Scott Rae: That'll be eight-
Trevor Sutton: You-
Scott Rae: ... Eight of the most terrifying minutes that student will ever have. [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: You will know in two minutes whether or not they have actually put anything into the process-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Trevor Sutton: ... Or if it's, all been generative AI. So I think, I think we need to, again, lean into this, find ways... I think the other thing is, if we tell our students, "No, no, you can never touch it," they're gonna never learn critical ways to-
Scott Rae: Right
Trevor Sutton: ... To interact with it, so we're gonna do them a disservice there.
Scott Rae: Yeah, we rec- we recently talked about how bluebooks are coming back.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah, yeah.
Scott Rae: And, we've had- we had to tell some of our listeners actually what a bluebook is. [chuckles]
Trevor Sutton: What a bluebook is, yeah. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: 'Cause they... There's no, a lot of them had never written an exam in a bluebook, which-
Trevor Sutton: You also need a campus bookstore to get that bluebook, right? [chuckles]
Scott Rae: You actually... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, both of those are obsolete.
Trevor Sutton: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But may, but both may be coming back.
Trevor Sutton: Yep, yep.
Scott Rae: Well, Trevor, this has been so helpful. I so appreciate your intersection of theology with technology, and I wanna kind of commend you for making this a big part of your life's work, and moving your theological reflection-
Trevor Sutton: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... Specifically in that direction. So needed today, and really commend you. You got, you got a lucky group of students-
Trevor Sutton: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... Who get to be exposed to that-
Trevor Sutton: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... On a regular basis, so-
Trevor Sutton: Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Trevor Sutton: It's been a great conversation.
Scott Rae: Well, so glad you could be with us. This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's thinkbiblically by, @biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation with our friend Trevor Sutton, give us a rating on your podcast app and share it with a friend, and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. Thanks so much for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
