Scott & Sean's topics this week:

  • Failed rapture predictions once again made headlines, fueled by social media hype, raising questions about biblical teaching, authority, and how Christians should respond with truth and compassion
  • Reflection on the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the role of faith in politics, with insights from David Brooks’ concerns about blurring Christianity and partisanship
  • A discussion on artificial intelligence entering personal and family life, from birthday planning to parenting, and why some areas should never be outsourced to machines
  • Listener question: How to respond when Protestant Christianity is called a cult
  • Listener question: How to comfort a grieving friend angry at God
  • Listener question: How to process Charlie Kirk’s legacy in light of divisive rhetoric and martyrdom language



Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] How can we make sense of failed rapture prophecies from this week? After the assassination of Charlie Kirk, there's renewed interest and discussion about the intersection of politics and faith. How can we think biblically about it? And is AI coming for your parenting? These are the stories we will discuss, and we will also address some of your questions. I'm your host, Sean McDowell.

Scott Rae: I'm your co-host, Scott Rae.

Sean McDowell: This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Scott, this is an unexpected story to me that we're covering, but over the past week or two, the idea that the Rapture would be September 23rd has blown up on social media. It's been covered in The New York Times, it was all over YouTube, and in my McDowell family chat, people were sharing [laughing]

Scott Rae: [laughing]

Sean McDowell: ... And talking about it. So I figured we better discuss it. Now, this is from an article in The New York Times that says, "The Rapture was predicted to happen today. TikTok has some advice." The prediction was made specifically Tuesday, September 23rd, Jesus would return to earth and take true believers to heaven. Now, this article is kind of describing to people that are not evangelicals what this even means, and they're talking about how the Rapture is essentially the beginning of the end of human history from a Christian perspective. And this comes from different passages, such as 1 Thessalonians, where followers of Christ will, quote, "Who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." And of course, the Rapture would be an interpretation of that passage. This kind of surprised me. I didn't know it was this big, Scott. Social media, would say the Rapture would occur on Tuesday, and on TikTok alone, the hashtag rapturenow has over 311,000 videos. Not views, that many videos. Now, some... I don't know the breakdown of how many are saying the Rapture is happening versus people poking fun at it. I have no idea, but it's totally blown up. It appears that the origin was from a South African who describes himself as a simple person, "No title. I'm not an apostle, I'm not a pastor, I'm not a bishop. I'm just a believer." Joshua Malachula is the one, he made YouTube video about this, and for some unknown reason, I'm not sure, maybe it's the analytics, [chuckles] maybe it's Satan, maybe it's some combination of both, this just took off and became a story this week. Some of the commentary around it, Scott, is what's really interesting, and it's hard to know what to take seriously. Like, one commentator was like, "The night before, put your, clothing that has demonic energy in it outside of your house." Another one was, like, discussing what styles of outfits to wear to match the angel's wings you would receive, which just strikes me as ridiculous. Others were talking about, "Hey, when you're raptured in the air, like, don't focus on the ground. You'll get dizzy. Like, focus up." I'm thinking, "What is happening?" Now, obviously, as this article points out, this isn't the first Rapture prediction that has failed. Two that I'm aware of this week, and there's many more, is in 2011, Harold Camping, an evangelical broadcaster, predicted the Rapture would come on May 21st that year. There was one in October 12th, 1844, called the Great Disappointment, where William Miller predicted Christ's return on that day. Tens of thousands of people sold possessions, and there were tons of people afterwards just disillusioned, with the church. Now, there's a ton we can talk about with this, but tell me, how do we think biblically when this is in the culture and people are talking about it?

Scott Rae: I think first we need to distinguish biblically between the Rapture and the general resurrection from the dead. 1 Thessalonians 4 talks about the Rapture of the Church, which will precede the Lord's return, and it will introduce what's known as a seven-year period called the Great Tribulation, which will again precede the, this, the actual return of Christ to set up his kingdom on the earth. After his kingdom is on the earth for a thousand years, then the general resurrection will take place, in which everyone will be raised from the dead to face final judgment. Now, the Rapture is described, I think, in 1 Thessalonians 4, like you mentioned. The general resurrection from the dead is described in 1 Corinthians 15. And there is, Sean, there is some debate, as you know, that, about whether these are two different events or not. I think they are distinct enough in the scriptures to warrant them being two different events. But there are some who hold that they are r- describing the same thing. What's clear, from Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24, for example, is that it's ki-- the Rapture and the return of Christ, both of them, are coming at times that we don't expect.

Sean McDowell: Exactly.

Scott Rae: So here's the catch: so any prediction of when to expect that it will come must, by definition, be in error.

Sean McDowell: [laughing] Exactly.

Scott Rae: [clears throat] so we, the Scripture calls us to expect Jesus' return at any time, to be ready for it, and to live faithfully as though it were imminent. Not as though, because it actually is imminent, and it will come at a time when we least expect. But, you know, I mean, almost every text, Sean, that describes the end times, they're, they almost always have a real-world, application to it. Even Revelation, which is almost entirely focused on the end times, has... Was designed to have a message to the first-century audience that the Apostle John was addressing in his apocalyptic vision. Actually, it's the reve- it's the revelation of Christ given to the Apostle John.... And it was, it was to, you know, to- it was to persevere in very, they were in very difficult, challenging times. Persecution was rampant throughout the church acr- around the world at that time. And so it was, it was designed to be an encouragement to the church to hang in there in the midst of persecution because we know, we've s- we've seen the final chapter of the book. We've read the final chapter. We know how it turns out, and we know that the forces of good, the Kingdom of God, is going to win in the end. And I think that's the message that I think is so encouraging, and I think even, Sean, in a mi- in a time where we are... We've got all this cultural division, and even division in the Christian community about political matters, the general message of the Rapture and the return of Christ, the message that we've read the final chapter of the book, we know how this ends, and the Kingdom of God is what will come in its, in its fullness and consummation, when Jesus returns. That is supposed to be our blessed hope and the great hope to which we look forward to, even in the midst of pretty challenging times.

Sean McDowell: Great word. I appreciate you bringing in that point, and the difference that needs to be drawn out is there's a difference between the belief that Jesus is coming back, the belief in a great judgment, the belief in a rapture, and the belief that you know and can predict exactly when that will happen. That's the difference here, and you're absolutely right. Matthew 26:44, it says distinctly, "The Son of Man," and Jesus says this referring to Himself, "is coming at an hour that you do not expect." Bottom line, it's really that simple, and so anyone gives us a prediction, they're wrong. Now, what's interesting is it's kind of like skydiving. If you get it wrong once, you're dead, right? There's no room for error. Well, every single person throughout the history of the world who's claimed to know the date on which it's [chuckles] going to end has been wrong. It's not like they're right or wrong half of the time. I mean, if you're skydiving and you're, you're good 95% of the time, don't skydive, right? You gotta be 100%. When it comes to predicting, it's 100% failed, which shows the foolishness of this. But I wanna go a little bit further, is these kinds of predictions make Christianity look foolish. Now, we cannot stop non-Christians... I don't know this guy, Josh Malakola, if he really believes in Jesus or not or made this up, I have no idea. But that so many Christians would make response videos, and there were videos of people agreeing with him, getting hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube, and they do because it's like, "Jesus is coming! Rapture is here!" Like, it's just drama, and we wanna believe we have some secret inside information. But when Christians fall for this foolishness, it makes us look bad, and we lose credibility. So I wonder how many people look at this and are like, "Christians are just idiots," and either lose their faith or just chalk up another reason not to be a Christian. Now, there's a difference between a failed prophecy within Jehovah's Witnesses that has happened many times, and it was integral to their founding prophets and figures, and someone claiming to be a Christian giving a prophecy that actually violates Scripture. So this doesn't undermine Christianity, but in the minds of many people, it does, and these kinds of movements hurt people. I'm not sure how many people... I can't assess this. With social media, there's no way to know, but there are signs that a lot of people sold their goods, organized their lives around Jesus coming back Tuesday, [chuckles] and now there's probably financial disaster. There's emotional disaster. There's spiritual fallout. So I do wanna encourage our audience, if you hear of somebody or know of somebody, don't gloat. Don't make fun of them. Just literally lean in and show the love of Christ and be present for them because they might be tempted to abandon the faith entirely. What I would hope is a real Christian or a Christian grounded in theology would come next to them and just say, "You know what? Let me love on you, and let me care for you through this," and then hopefully start to lead them towards a more biblical perspective. The other take on this, Scott, is it really raises interesting questions of authority. All of us have some authority that we point to. It could be science. It could be our feelings. It could be people that we know. And biblically, I've been reading Luke 1 through 12 almost every morning, and it just amazed me how much it's about authority, the authority of the Word of God, the authority of Jesus, the authority of John the Baptist. Everybody has some sort of authority. So why did people fall for this random guy on YouTube from South Africa, who admittedly has no training and no background and no theological education? I can't fully answer this, but there's two things that came to my mind. I could be wrong about this. One, I think sometimes for people in the West, when you see someone in the East that has a different accent, that you just feel like maybe they know something that we don't. There's a history of just thought and life in Africa. Maybe this guy has some knowledge or insight that we don't. Maybe that has a piece of it. I don't know. But we also live in an anti-establishment age, where it's, like, looked down on to be an authority of something, and for a random person to say, "You know what? I had a dream."... I have the authority to talk about Jesus coming back, and people believe that? So this story highlights to me the importance of who and what we put authority in, and frankly, so much of the foolishness around this is just bad theology, and it's a bad understanding of the Bible, which honestly, this story, I'm like, "Scott, this gives me such a sense of urgency to keep doing what we're doing here."

Scott Rae: Well, I concur. And Sean, there are a number of, a number of these videos that you referred to were actually mocking the people-

Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's right

Scott Rae: ... Who were, who were-

Sean McDowell: That's right

Scott Rae: ... Taking this seriously. In fact, they were, they were asking them, you know, "Can I, can I have your car keys or the keys to your house?" [laughing]

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Scott Rae: You know, things like that. Hopefully you didn't give up any of those things. And they were actually encouraging people, you know, leave your cell phones unlocked, you know, so that the people who are left behind can have access to them. And I admit, Sean, I do wonder about, you know, as you pointed out, these periodic fascinations with Jesus' return. You know, 'cause I remember it wasn't that long ago that we- that prophecy conferences were the thing.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Scott Rae: And, you know, Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth was a, [chuckles] a huge bestseller, and I think there were some things that admittedly went, you know, were a little bit, shall we, shall we say, highly speculative in those things, and maybe not completely-

Sean McDowell: A little bit is-

Scott Rae: ... Grounded in the Scripture.

Sean McDowell: A little bit is generous, but your point is well said. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: I'm being generous. But, but I think... I, you know, I remember we had very dear family friends who came to faith as the result of Hal Lindsey's ministry. And then I remember, you know, the Left Behind series.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Scott Rae: And, you know, people hoping that they are not gonna be left behind. And so that's why, as we commented before we, before we started recording this, that if the Rapture did occur, we're, we're in deep trouble here, pal. And, you know, but, you know, thankfully, the Bible's really clear on what we can expect, which is not a specific time or place. And I think that what we lose in this, and I think what the old prophecy conferences lost, was the purpose of all these passages that talk about the end times was to encourage faithfulness in the present time, and not to, you know, not to engage in what I, what I would consider almost useless speculation about what or when or h- what it's gonna look like. You know, we know Jesus is coming back, and in the meantime, God's calling us to be faithful, end of story.

Sean McDowell: Amen to that. I think that's exactly right. I... You know, two last quick things is Hal Lindsey, like, '70s and '80s, was one of the top-selling authors, period. So this focus on what you could maybe call hysteria is nothing new. What's new is artificial intelligence, and what's new is social media, so even more people can be taken in by some of these ideas than the past, but the underlying hysteria is not new. Before we go on to the next story, I did love at the end of this New York Times article, it says, "But more generally, Christian theology says that all Christians should live each day as if it were the last." This is one of the few times at the end of a New York Times article [chuckles] I was like, "Amen! Preach it." I mean, Revelation 22:20 says, "He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming soon.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus." Now, in the Old Testament, they'd say, "The day of the Lord is near," and then it'd be, like, 800 years. So we live in the tension that it could be 800 years, or it literally could be tomorrow. But let us never give a specific date like this happened. I think we've seen the foolishness that's come out of it. All right, this next one, Scott, to shift gears quite a bit, was actually, an opinion piece by David Brooks, and this is one of the conversations that has come out about the Charlie Kirk assassination, and it's pretty amazing. You know, two weeks out or so, this story is still just dominating the news and social media for different reasons. But Brooks is concerned about the mingling of Christianity and politics. He says, "Some people are made nervous by this mingling of God talk and politics," but he actually says, "If we go back to the origin of Christianity, there was no such concern," and he cites people like John Adams saying, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people." He quotes Alexis Toc- de Tocqueville, talks about people like Martin Luther King Jr., who clearly, in his calls against racism, specifically cited biblical prophets and modeled the example of Jesus. Fascinatingly, he talks about Jonathan Rauch, who is a gay atheist Jew, who's recently said, "We need Jesus." Now, he doesn't mean the same kind of Jesus you and I mean, but the biblical ethic needs to be a part of our civic conversation. It brings objective good to American civic life. So bottom line, he says, "You may be religious or not religious, but you have an interest in living in a society that produces people who are spiritually, morally, and intellectually healthy. Thus, the crucial question is not how to separate spirituality and politics, but how to put them in proper relation to each other." Now, he talks about his model for doing this, and I won't go into all the details, but he's really concerned, let's say, with what he sees the intermingling of politics and faith at the Charlie Kirk memorial. He says it communicates the idea that to follow Jesus is to be a Republican, so that's the root of his concern. Maybe help us just think through more broadly, Scott, in light of this conversation, how do we think biblically, how should we think biblically about the intersection of politics and faith?

Scott Rae: ... Well, Sean, in, interestingly, in a few weeks, I'll be speaking to a group of state legislators and their staffs in the Midwest on this very subject. Fascinating. And I, and I've done so with a, with a similar group in Arizona, and actually I've had to speak to... Had the chance to speak to congressional staff on Capitol Hill on this subject, courtesy of our friend, the late Chuck Colson. Let me, let me start with what I think the Scripture teaches on this, Sean. Okay. I think, for one, Christian faith is not just a matter of individual piety. It's not this individual thing between Jesus and me with no social implications. The Bible is really clear that a, that a vibrant Christian faith has both an, a dynamic individual relationship to God, but also a critical social dimension to it. Take for ex- for example, when the prophets prophesy about the coming Kingdom of God, which Jesus inaugurated, it has both an individual and a social component to it, because, to put it, to put it colloquially, when the prophets predicted that at a point when Jesus brings his kingdom in its fullness, every knee will bow at the name of Christ, and we will have a properly functioning society. The prophets refer to this as the pursuit of justice. And, and he talks about, in Isaiah 42, for example, Prophet Isaiah talks about the servant Messiah bringing justice to the nations, and he will bring a just society, where so where it is, it is one that is absent sin and corruption. So that... I think the, one of the main points biblically on this is that Christian faith has an in- an inevitable social dimension to it. Now, that doesn't mean it's automatically political, but it can include the political at times. Now, on the other side of this, on the political side, I think we need to recognize that politics is a fundamentally a moral enterprise. This is where I part company a little bit with David Brooks on this. Okay. It's about, it's about how we order our lives together in community. Now, it's true, he's right about they are fundamentally different enterprises, because religion is the world of absolutes, and politics is the world of negotiation, compromise, and limited objectives. Good distinction. But we should, we should not be surprised that religious traditions of all stripes have something to say about how we order our lives together in community. And we sh- and we sh- we should not be surprised that Christian faith has a lot to say about that, too, because the Trinity is fundamentally relational. We are created for community. And we're... And therefore, we should expect that the Bible would have something to say about how we order our lives together in community. Now, the f- the founders, I think, expected Christian faith and politics to mix. Okay? Although God appears nowhere in the Constitution, Jesus appears nowhere in the Declaration of Pe- of Independence. They appeal to natural law rather than to a specific sect or denomination, and the Constitution is a, is a legal document. We wouldn't expect God to appear in what is fundamentally a legal document. But that doesn't mean that the political arena should proceed absent any re- any religious input or religious convictions. Because Protestant Christianity was just part of the air people breathed in colonial America, and therefore, we would expect that those values and virtues would be reflected in the founding documents of the country. Sure. Now, now, you know, the founders were also clear that they wanted no part of a state church. They wanted no part of government intervening in matters of conscience, and free expression, and free speech, and, you know, and religious freedom and things like that. Because they... I think they recognized that, the religious sphere is a, is a transcendent sphere, and politics is what rules over the ear- over more earthly matters. Now, I think Rauch is clearly right, and the founders, when we go, we go on and on about how the founders were so clear about this, but they found it very difficult to envision democracy working apart from the guardrails that religion and morality provided. And by the way, the founders, even though some of them were just deists, now, and I think probably not Christian, the founders did not envision morality having long-term prospects without the empowering forces of religious belief. They were, they were not optimistic about morality and character surviving in the absence of a vibrant religious faith. Now, the question is, and I'm deli- this is the subject we've been waiting for- Right, right ... On this. I mean, this is the one- this is the really the im- what David Brooks is bringing up, it is- this is really important- ... About the conversation we need to have. And I think it's... The question is not, sh- you know, can or should religion and politics mix? The question is how- Exactly ... They mix. Exactly. That, that's, that's what matters. Yep. And so, we can't, we can't assume that all mixtures of faith and political activity-... Are on the same level, equal playing field, 'cause some of them are better than others. Some, I think, are more consistent with scripture than others. So I'll, I'll leave it for there. I've got a few more things to say on this, but, you- let me hear your take on this.

Sean McDowell: I j- I have a few things from this article that jump out to me. He, he says, "One..." This is Brooks. He says, "One faith leader told my Times colleague, Elizabeth Dias, about a conversation she had with Charlie Kirk, who told her, 'I wanna talk about spiritual things, and in order to do that, I have to enter the political arena.'" And then Brooks says, "Why on earth would Kirk believe that?" Well, it, I think Kirk's point was, if you want to really engage a ton of students on spiritual things, politics is a hook to get there. I think that's what his larger concern was. So of course, you can talk with your neighbor, and you can blog on spiritual things, but if you wanna get people's attention, that's a way to do it. Honestly, Scott, I told you this last time, I mean, 40 years ago, I mean, my daddy spoke at 1,200 universities, and they would get tens of thousands sometimes. They would fill up stadiums on campuses across the US and beyond with students to hear about spiritual things. He didn't talk about politics, but I always thought culture has shifted so much, you could never do anything to get that much engagement. Kirk came around and got that much engagement, and I thought, "You know what? I was wrong." Now, that... What his politics are is a separate issue, but I think Brooks is wrong about this, that he's the only one who's become a massive campus speaker and talks about spiritual things. I think that's why he did it. Now, you could argue that somebody else could've done it. Jordan Peterson gets big audiences. But I just wanna say, I think that's what Kirk's motivation was in using politics to get there, and I think that point can be made regardless of Kirk's particular politics. Now, he does say this as well. Brooks says this: He says, "The ceremony," and this is the Sunday s- memorial service, "bounced back and forth between prayer and political point-scoring, between people offering to love their enemies and President Trump proudly hating them, between declarations that all humans are made in the image of God, and Stephen Miller basically declaring that all his enemies are vermin." Now, this is a critique from Brooks. I actually-- my interpretation is it was kind of a strength. I think anybody who was watching this clearly saw the difference between who Trump is. He made it clear that he has a different theological view. He goes, "I hate my enemies," and Erika, Kirk, is up there talking about forgiving and loving the person who had shot her husband 11 days before. So I totally understand the concern Brooks is raising, but part of me goes, if you just pay attention, you see a clarity between Christ's love and what Trump was holding. Now, of course, this raises the question, then how could they support Trump and get behind him? That's a separate issue. I totally understand that, but I think people watching, you saw a really clear-cut, different worldview vision of how people live and why they do what they do, and to me, sometimes just that clarification is valuable. I would say... You know, one other point I'd say, this article says, "Many of the remarks rested on the unexamined assumption that being a Christian and being a Republican are basically the same thing." Like, that's a, that's a fair concern. One of-- to me, one of the strengths of Christianity is that, like you said earlier, it doesn't lay out a specific political program. It doesn't. It's about the kingdom of God, and so I see it as a strength throughout the history of the Church and today. We have a range of different ways within our Orthodox faith to think about and approach politics. I don't see that as a weakness. I see that as a strength. Now, we've gotta make our case. Whether you're a Democrat or Republican, you gotta argue that. You gotta defend it. You gotta point towards scripture, and we can have that conversation, but I actually see it more as a strength as a whole, that there's, like, pacifists in the past and Quakers, and they're within theological orthodoxy, but let's just say a very different political engagement. A couple other things I do wanna say is, he says, "People..." This is a concern by Brooks at the end: "People treat electoral politics as if it were a form of spiritual warfare." Now, the concern of this that's rightly being raised is the difference between politics and faith gets blurred, and that is a very genuine concern on all sides of the aisle here. And he says, "It's like the traditional Christian virtue of hope becomes, 'We're under attack. We have to destroy our enemies.'" So th- he's right to raise a caution here, but I'm just reminded, I would say, to a degree, politics is... We can't separate spiritual warfare from politics. I mean, was the fight against slavery a kind of spiritual warfare being enacted through politics? Yes. So we can take it too far and demonize people who see the world differently than we do on secondary issues, but I'm partly concerned that Brooks maybe takes it too far into his separate realms, like he says, and strips politics of the fact that everything has a spiritual component. One can make that mistake as well. Now, I've got, I got one more point, more of a critique, but I'll punt to you and then come back.

Scott Rae: Well, I think we need to be clear, too, to think theologically about this, that, you know, there are-... Certain cultural and political entailments of Christian faith. And we can disagree about what some of those are, but that's the reason why we're so passionate about them. And I think we need to remind our listeners again, what we've said repeatedly, Sean, is that no political platform of either party will infallibly reflect biblical priorities. And there is, there is no necessary connection between Christian faithfulness and any particular platform over another, because no political party platform was written with biblical fidelity as its purpose. And I think to, you know, we've gotta be really clear about this, too, Sean, that God's kingdom flourishing is not dependent upon who's in power or the fortunes of any particular nation.

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Scott Rae: God's kingdom is moving forward as the people of God take up the way of the cross and show that our hope is not dependent upon having cultural or political power. That's not where our hope... That's idolatry, to put our hope in those things. Our responsibility is to be faithful to what God is calling us to do, to what Scripture mandates us to do. And I think like we do with evangelism, Sean, our responsibility is not to change people's hearts. That's the job of the Spirit of God. Our job is to faithfully proclaim the Gospel and to trust the results to God and to His Spirit. And I think it's the same way culturally. Our, our job is to engage the culture, to stand for the right things biblically and theologically. And I think, it, the, but at the end of the day, we trust the res- the cu- the cultural results, we trust to God. You know, our responsibility is not to change the culture. Our responsibility is to be faithful to what God is calling us to do in our particular sphere of influence, and to do it with excellence and to do it faithfully, and to trust God with the rest of it.

Sean McDowell: I love it, Scott. I sent out a tweet/X this week, and I just said, "Faithfulness equals success," or, "Success equals faithfulness," and I think that's exactly right. Now, I do wanna point out one more thing from his article, is this is a concern that Brooks has at the end of the article, and this is one especially... I would encourage people to read, agree with him or not, it's a thoughtful piece. And he says, when... W- again, his concern is the co-mingling of faith and politics too much as he saw it, expressed in the ceremony for the death of Charlie Kirk. This is where Brooks is coming from. And this concern, he says, "The process of moral formation is perverted." And I think there's- this is a really wise caution. We are called to care about politics. We're called to engage the political arena. But we have to ask the question: How does this engagement shape our hearts, shape our love for God and for our neighbor? Does it affect us? And there was one thing that really bothered me in the ceremony. It was Don Trump Jr. He was imitating his father, which I thought was funny, that only kind of a son can do, and then he made a joke at the expense of Hillary Clinton. And I thought, "We're at the memorial service for somebody. Why do you have to step on someone while they're down?" Now, a lot of people laughed. I don't know who laughed. I mean, I don't know how many people were there. If there were 70,000 people there and 10% laughed, that's 7,000 people. Like, [chuckles] I have no idea. Not everyone who was there was a Christian. We know that for sure. But I thought, how interesting, and how much we need to guard our hearts, because when we laugh at things that we shouldn't laugh at, and we celebrate things we shouldn't celebrate, that affects our hearts. And your point last week, Scott, when you were talking about virtue, that affects us. So that might feel like a nitpicky point to me, but my guard went up. I was like, "You know what? I hope no Christians laughed at that at the expense of a human being." And if they did, and they hear this, I hope they repent. And that's a way that our political commitments, because we're part of a club and we have beliefs, can start to just subtly and in such a small way affect our character, and that's where we need to say no. So on that point, I think Brooks was exactly right.

Scott Rae: Amen.

Sean McDowell: [sighs] All right, brother. We're getting a lot of amens today, man, from Revelation, from this story. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: We must, we must be, man, we must be on a roll today. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: Now, this story you sent me, I actually hadn't seen this, even though I read The Atlantic. The title is "AI Is Coming for Parents." It says, "Apps are promising to ease the job of child-rearing, but they're missing something crucial." And essentially, it's a story about a woman who's celebrating her daughter's fourth birthday, and she comes across an AI party planner called Celebrity Ally. It says, "Looking to plan a theme party, a surprise bash, or just a relaxed get-together?" You know, read a banner on its website. And it promised that the app would take care of, quote, "all the details, themes, activities, [chuckles] and decorations. It even offered to write birthday cards, capturing your heartfelt sentiments beautifully." And so this article is basically this mom walking through, like, I love AI, there's positive things for it, but she feels like something is lost in her humanity. Obviously, [chuckles] somebody writing a birthday card for you for your kid, I mean, I can't believe that passed marketing somewhere. I mean, that is the most obvious example of something that is just artificial intelligence replacing real intelligence. But I think the reason you gave me this story is we've seen AI move from, like, plagiarism and helping us with directions to, like, very personal things.... And it's no longer an issue that's out there. It's quite literally affecting and shaping every decision that we make, and the temptations are there to just subtly allow AI to do things that, as this author says, maybe actually dehumanize us. So give us your take on this article.

Scott Rae: Well, I- this was in- entirely predictable-

Sean McDowell: [laughing]

Scott Rae: -in my view, and only a matter of time-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Scott Rae: ... For this to come out. In fact, it came out a little more quickly than I thought.

Sean McDowell: Oh!

Scott Rae: And, you know, I think part of the question is, you know, can AI be useful for some of these things? You know, maybe if they give us information, sort of like a, you know, a Google search on steroids for, you know, you know, birthday party decorations or something like that. But-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Scott Rae: ... If they become a substitute for interaction with kids, then I think we've, we've left, I think, one of the key biblical components of parenting. Because remember Deuteronomy 6?

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Scott Rae: You know, Moses, God commands to Moses to, "Talk with these commands with your children as you go out and as you come in," and those are figures of speech in the Old Testament for two extremes that constitute everything else in between. So when you go out at the beginning of the day and when you come in at the end of the day, and every time in between, you talk about these with your kids. And it was... This, this was, you know, in the, in the Old Testament, this was, mentoring, you know, highly interpersonal, interactive parenting with kids. And I think one of the things that has been so detrimental to our family life has been, you know, the, when the Industrial Revolution came and separated the home from the workplace. And it just ma- it made, I think, it made the role of parenting, I think, much more, you know, much more challenging to do those things that came naturally to most of our, most of our forebears in generations past. And I think, you know, my mentor at seminary used to say when, you know, I had a course with him on marriage and parenting, and he said, "Love for kids is spelled not L-O-V-E, but T-I-M-E."

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Scott Rae: And it's about showing up. And I think, you know, Woody Allen, I think, was pretty w- had a lot, had a lot of insight about this. He said, you know, "About 80% of life is just showing up."

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: And I think that's... I think a lot of that's true for parenting, too. That, and I would, I'd put it this way: showing up covers a multitude of other shortcomings. And, and AI chatbot can't show up for you at soccer games, volleyball games, and drama productions, and other, and graduation events and thing, you know, things like that. I do- I don't want to outsource conversations with kids to a bot because I'm too stressed. And I would say, you know, I would encourage, you know, and this I think comes out in the article, too, be careful that we don't adopt what I would call a do-it-all model of parenting. That I think these chatbots can encourage and enable us because they enable us to manage more and more efficiently. But the article point- I love the way the article says this, is that, "If my family's daily activity ever ballooned to the point of needing a digital project management, then I'd rather re-evaluate our priorities than ask AI to help us juggle even more." I thought that was really insightful. And I w- I just want to be really careful that, you know, this may... Sean, this may be an area where we say, "You know, maybe this is an area where we ought to just say stop to AI," when we are tempted to outsource some of the interactions with our kids. You know, the, one of, one of these applications has the tagline, "Ask," whatever the bot's name is, "not Mom." And I say, "No, I don't think so." I want, I want my kids asking Mom and Dad for things. I want them talking to us because I think one of the things I've, I've recognized, and you may have seen this too, Sean, in your family, that, you know, parents are popular with their kids, but not forever. You know, and some... You know, I remember when, you know, when my kids got to be teenagers, their friends were very influential, and they, you know, they're- you know, I think they always valued their relationship to us, but it was clear that their friends elevated in importance. And I don't, I don't ever want parents to become the f- to, for kids to feel like their parents are becoming somewhat obsolete. And I think this has, this has the potential to, accelerate what comes naturally for some kids in adolescence.

Sean McDowell: Scott, the bell went off three times. I think that was your AI chatbot telling you to drink more water or check your heart rate. [laughing] Just kidding.

Scott Rae: Oh.

Sean McDowell: I couldn't, I couldn't resist. [laughing]

Scott Rae: Sorry. That was, that was, that was our boss.

Sean McDowell: [laughing] Oh, yeah, totally. Totally playing. I, eh, a few thoughts jumped out, too, about this. You know, I played basketball here for Dave Holmquist, who's been our coach since the '70s. He's the fourth time- fourth all-time leading winningest coach in men's basketball history on any level. Phenomenal coach, but I learned more from him about life than I did even from basketball. And one thing he would say, and I don't remember the exact words, but he'd talk about how the journey itself is more important than the destination. And I remember thinking for a while, "You're crazy. All I want to do is win league. All I want to do is win a championship."... But it's like enjoying the process itself is really what it's all about, and that's true for parenting. [chuckles] It's not just about getting your kids into the right college. It's not just about getting them to play a sport, getting them to have a GPA. Those are ends, but the process itself is what's so meaningful. It's the relationship, which is what God has made us for. So what would be better, to have the most perfectly planned and scripted birthday party and not spend time with your kid planning it, or have a less perfect on the outside, but an experience of planning it with your kid? And I think the answer to that is obvious. And so I love AI, I use AI, but I'm constantly asking myself, "Is this replacing something that a human being should do?" So if it gets me an airline ticket, why does a human being have to do that? [chuckles] If it saves time to schedule a Zoom meeting, why does a human being have to do that? Great. But if it's writing a birthday card that's heartfelt, if it's planning a wedding or a wedding, I guess you could add into that, too. I'm sure that's coming next now that I think about it, not just a birthday. There's-- Right, I'm sure that's already happening. I remember some of the planning with my wife, going to taste cakes. Instead of just saying, "It's all you," I was like, "You know what? I wanna be a part of the process." And I was actually really glad that I did that. And so that gi- that should give us pause when we're outsourcing to AI, and it's replacing something that a human being should do. I suspect, again, this is just the beginning, and since it's so sophisticated, and we're at the early stages of this, we're gonna be able to replace almost everything that humans can do. Almost. Let's just ask ourselves, "Is this something that a machine and chatbot or algorithm should do, or is this something a human should do? Do I lose something in my character? Do I lose something in my relationship, or frankly, just a good life experience, by allowing a bot to do this?" Then I think the answer should be no. And planning all the details of a fourth birthday party, I'm sorry, as this author points out, goes way beyond what we should allow intelligence, artificial intelligence, at least to entirely do.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I think, I think we're gonna... We just have to be much more careful about saying no intentionally to some of the things that AI can do. And even if they might, you know, even if they might be, you know, what we might consider incidental things, I think we, those things can chip away at some of the things that make us human. And I think w- if it starts chipping away at our time and our interaction with our kids, though, that's, that's the time, I think, to step in and say, "I'm saying no to AI on this." You know, I've- we've said, we've-- Sean, you and I both said no to AI on a number of things at the academic level. And I think at the parenting level, this is some of the stuff that parents, especially of younger kids, are gonna have to say no to.

Sean McDowell: One of the last lines in the article was like, "An AI chatbot is not gonna show up at your kid's birthday party," and I was like, [chuckles] "That's exactly right."

Scott Rae: At least not yet. But it definitely won't be the same as you showing up.

Sean McDowell: Well, fair enough, not even close to someone flesh and blood. We're gonna shift to questions, but first, just wanna remind our audience that this podcast comes from Talbot School of Theology, and we would absolutely love for you to consider studying with us in person or online so you can avoid the foolishness of rapture hysteria and be a person of reason in your church and family and community. I think we've seen this week how important it is to think biblically about all sorts of topics, such as politics and things like the rapture, that dominate our culture. We'd love to have you think about joining us at Talbot School of Theology. We got three great questions. Let's see if we can work our way through all three of these. First one says: "I've been in two different situations where I had the opportunity to talk about Jesus. One was with an atheist, and the other was with a Catholic. Both these friends claim that they view Protestant Christianity as a cult. I was taken aback by this statement, and I'm kind of stuck trying to find the most simple and biblical response. What are your thoughts on responding to this claim?"

Scott Rae: Well, Sean, I admit I was taken aback by this, too-

Sean McDowell: Huh

Scott Rae: ... Because I, it's, it's news to me that I've been a member of a cult for some time.

Sean McDowell: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: But it raised a question. I think, what are... What is the definition of a cult? What are the characteristics of a cult? And one of the ones that I think is common to most cults is that you can't leave them either at all or not without great difficulty. I mean, see, say, for example, some of the Scientologists who have tried to leave that, and it's, it's extremely difficult, for them to do that. Now, some have been successful, but it's-- there's also, it's characterized by high control over people's lives, by manipulation, by charismatic leaders. And I think, I, what I would point out is, b- you know, the statistics show people have been leaving Protestant churches in droves for the last 50 years, and I think that, I would say that by, statistic by itself undermines one of the main criterias that characterizes a cult.

Sean McDowell: You're right to get to the heart of what a cult is. I would encourage this person, when this comes up, just say, "Hey, can you tell me what you mean by a cult?" When you don't have an answer, ask questions. There's theological cults, in which a belief system emerges out of a parent system and somehow adapts or changes those beliefs. But then there's sociological cults that are much more controlling about what you believe, and they're cultic with your time and energy and affections, and so you could be one without the other.... Honestly, like, you, I guess you could make a case that maybe Christianity is kind of a cult of Judaism, depending on how [chuckles] you understand. Obviously, we think Christianity fulfills Judaism, but some from the outside would say, "No, you've changed, and you've adapted things." And my response would be, "Well, the question is Christianity true? If Jesus is God, then his interpretation of the Old Testament is superior." My concern with Mormonism is not that it's a cult theologically. My concern is that I think it's false. If it were true, and Joseph Smith were a real prophet, I would believe it. I just think it's false. So if an atheist or Catholic or whoever says this, it doesn't really matter. Just say, "How do you define a cult? And then tell me why you think Christianity is actually false. Wouldn't you agree with me that if it were true, even if we dub it a cult, that one should believe it?" And then you can shift to the message of Christianity and shift to why it's true. That's how I would navigate it.

Scott Rae: Good word. I think that that's especially good advice, I think, if you don't have an immediate answer, start asking questions.

Sean McDowell: Good stuff. Now, you said, you said, "Good word." I was hoping you'd gave me an amen, given the theme today, but I'll take good word, Scott, when I get it. [laughs]

Scott Rae: That's the same thing. [laughs] Same thing.

Sean McDowell: All right, let's roll on to the second one. It says, "I'd like to ask for some advice on how to help a friend." and, "Fred and Martha, these people, are married 40 years. About 30 years ago, Martha found Jesus. She was involved in ministry and shared Jesus with her husband. Fred remained an atheist and would never attend church. Martha prayed regularly for him to come to know Jesus, but four years ago was diagnosed with Lou Gehrig's disease and applied for physician-assisted suicide. Martha kept praying but went through with it and died an atheist. Martha became angry at God as a result of na- and now doesn't want anything to do with him. I feel all I can do is pray for Martha, but I wonder if you have any other words of wisdom I could share with her?"

Scott Rae: Sean, I'm not convinced that any words of wisdom are gonna be that helpful- ... In this situation. What I would encourage our listeners to, our listener to do here, and I so appreciate this person's compassion and sensitivity for a person who's, who's suffering obvious grief. And I think, what I would say for now, you, the person who's writing and asking this, are the arms and feet of Jesus for her, showing his compassion for her grief and to show the love of Christ for her, because I think her, you know, this person's presence with her will say far more than any particular word of wisdom that you might have. And I suspect that she won't, that she won't be open to anything, you know, any kind of wisdom you have for her until she knows how deep your care and love for her is. And so that, I would say, just be present with her, be around, he- you know, just be with her and love her and care for her. Now I... When it comes to the point of, you know, she's open to hearing a little bit more, you know, I think we have to be humble about this and say, we don't know why God answers some prayers the way he does- ... Or doesn't answer prayers the way he does. And we will, you know, this will all, this will all fit together as part of a coherent whole when we meet the Lord face to face. But for now, part of the, part of our humanity is, you know, we don't, we... You know, we don't have the mind of God. We don't know why God didn't answer her prayers. I, you know, and I think we have, we have to have some intellectual humility with that and recognize that, you know, God has not given us the box top to the jigsaw puzzle that's got the big picture on it of how all those pieces of life's puzzle fit together- ... This side of eternity. So that would be my advice. I say my advice here is more, I say more pastoral than intellectual.

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Scott Rae: And at the least, to start with the pastoral side before moving to the other.

Sean McDowell: I love it. One, one thing I would maybe throw in there is you could say to this individual, say, "Hey, would you be willing to share your experience and your journey, just so I can understand where you're at processing this over coffee? I don't have a debate. I'm just curious about your life, how you make sense of this, and your beliefs about God." It's purely to understand. The person can say no, but if they say yes, don't come and start debating theology. Just say... You know, you literally just ask questions, and you'd be curious. And at the end, you could say, "You know what? I've thought about these things as a Christian, and if you ever wanted to hear how a Christian makes sense of this, that's a conversation I'd love to have. I'm not here for that, but thanks for sharing your heart. Know that I love you, and I care about you, and I'm here for you, no matter what you believe." That's a positive step you can try to take, and at the end, the person goes, "You know what? I'm not interested in hearing about God." Don't force it. Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away. But if you're that kind to somebody, and you're open, you take that posture, you might be amazed at how many people are at least willing to hear it, and as Greg Koukl would say [chuckles] , "Put a stone in someone's shoe."

Scott Rae: That, that gets a major amen from me.

Sean McDowell: Oh, [laughs] I'll take it. [laughs] Good stuff. All right, so the last one, the person says, "I'm angry that Charlie Kirk got shot." And by the way, we got more questions on Charlie Kirk than any issue we've ever done, but I'm not gonna spend all the time on that, but it's just interesting in itself. "I'm angry at the horrible political violence in the world, the hateful, divisive rhetoric. Those on the right disparage and vilify Democrats, liberals, and progressives, and those on the left do the same to Republicans and Trump supporters. None of this reflects the way Jesus told us to live."... Well, I think Kirk's murder was evil. Isn't there a difference between being horrified by this tragedy and glorifying him and making him out to be a martyr, especially when he contributed to the unkind rhetoric and division that gave rise to the violence? What's your take?

Scott Rae: Well, I've- I'm a little nervous about the martyr language for this, because, part of this is, you know, my wife works for an organization, Global Christian Relief, that serves the persecuted church around the world, where people are dying specifically because of their faith- ... On a daily basis, and enduring all sorts of persecution, ranging from beatings and torture and imprisonment to indentured servitude and slavery and human trafficking, and all sorts of other things, because, specifically because of their faith. And that, in my view, that's the definition of a martyr. It's less clear... Now, you may, you may think differently about this than I do, but it's less clear to me that he was killed because of his faith as opposed to his politics. Although it may, that may be intermixed in there. But, I think I view the martyr label through the lenses of the persecuted church around the world, more so than what's happening here in the United States or in other parts of the West. Now, to be sure, I have no doubt that his faith was real. And I think he- I think his wife gets a lot of credit for, you know, encouraging him and nurturing his faith. But as we've, you know, as we've suggested already, I have reservations about specifically how he mixed his faith with his politics. And so I think you can, you can disagree, you can de- disagree with him. I think this listener is absolutely right. It was... His murder was horrible, it's evil, and you're- we're right to be horrified by it. I'm, I'm less, I'm less convinced that the language of martyrdom is accurate here.

Sean McDowell: That's fair. I have a lot to say about martyrdom. I won't say here, given that I wrote an PhD and a academic book [chuckles] with a second edition after 10 years of studying the martyrdom of the apostles. I will hold that to the side. I got an email similar to this from a friend who basically said, "Charlie Kirk was so unkind, he was so divisive, gave rise to the violence. How do I deal with my family members who think otherwise?" And I said, "Can you send me the specific clip of where you think this happened?" She sent it to me, and I said, "If you look in context, I'm just telling you, I think he's saying something different than what you think he's saying, and the spin on it is being said." Now, I haven't watched all his stuff. I mean, my goodness, I have huge grace for him. He's 31. I'm glad nothing that I'm aware of is recorded of me in my 20s. [chuckles] Like, I probably would've been canceled a long time ago. Now, on the other side, he stepped into this. He's chosen it. He's used social media. He's accountable for that. But I just have a lot of grace for the trajectory of someone's life as they move over time, given that I'm older now and I'm 49. But when I hear stuff like this, I say, "You know what? Go to the source, look at it in context charitably, ask, 'Why did he say it?'" And in this case, the person who said that to me, I was like: I understand you differ with him, but you're calling him a racist because of this specific thing, and I don't think he's a racist. Now, I haven't seen all the videos that he made. I don't have time to look at all that. I'm just... We are quick to take, the characterization of somebody from a quick quote ripped out of context. He deserves all of us to go back and look at it in context charitably before we make up our mind. And you know what? It's not just him. It's true for anybody, whether they agree with you or differ with you. Let's do our homework before we label people with certain things. That's my only encouragement here, although so much more could be said. Scott, good stuff, man. Amen to this-

Scott Rae: Amen to that!

Sean McDowell: All right, we'll take it. That was a fun theme. This episode has been brought to you by the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture. From Talbot School of Theology, Biola University, we have master's programs in theology, Bible, apologetics, spiritual formation, and more. Please think about joining us. We've seen today how vital it is in the news stories, faith and politics, rapture coming, to think biblically. We would love to help you and your family and your church get some formal theological education. Please submit your comments or ask your questions. You can send them to us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu, and we would ask, again, to just give us a rating on your podcast app. I'm not kidding, every single rating helps in the analytics. So if you find this valuable, even if you differ with us now and then, and in fact, Scott and I differ, and sometimes I listen to it later and go, "I differ with myself," but if you value the idea of [chuckles] thinking biblically, please give us a rating on your podcast app. Share it with a friend. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you Tuesday when our normal episode drops. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]