Biola UniversityLoneliness & Misinformation: Sean and Rick unpack new research linking rising loneliness, especially among young adults, to increased susceptibility to conspiracy theories and online misinformation, emphasizing the need for real community and diverse conversation partners.
Tesla’s ‘Robot Army’: They discuss Elon Musk’s ambitious plan to deploy one million humanoid robots, raising concerns about work, human purpose, and the worldview assumptions behind a future where “work becomes optional.”
How Movies Get Rated: The hosts explore newly revealed insights from the film ratings board, explaining shifting standards around nudity, marijuana, violence, and how Christians can think more deeply about film beyond simple PG-13/R labels.
Orthodox Christianity’s Surprising Growth: A major feature covers why young men are increasingly drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy for its beauty, tradition, masculinity, and supernaturalism, and how this trend fits into broader signs of spiritual renewal in the U.S.
Listener Questions:
- Unpacking the millennial reign of Christ.
- Helping someone who is struggling with pedophilia.
- Understanding the theological significance of rainbows in today's culture.
Episode Transcript
Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] Does loneliness fuel misinformation? Tesla wants to build a robot army. The Movie Ratings Board has pulled back the curtain on how it approaches hot-button topics, and the American Orthodox Church seems to be growing at an unprecedented rate. These are stories we will discuss, and we will also address some of your excellent questions. I'm your host, Sean McDowell, and filling in for Scott Rae, who is at the Evangelical Theological Society this week, is the one and only Rick Langer, who is almost becoming a co-host at this point.
Rick Langer: [laughing]
Sean McDowell: He's bailing us out so many times. But this is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Rick, thanks for coming back, man.
Rick Langer: Hey, so glad to be here with you, Sean.
Sean McDowell: Well, you sent me this first article, and it's so intriguing to me because there's a new study that suggests in our age of misinformation... And I'm not gonna spend half a second on convincing people that we live in an age of misinformation.
Rick Langer: [laughing]
Sean McDowell: But suggesting there might be a link between the loneliness epidemic, which we have seen really around the emergence of the smartphone. In kind of the earlier 2000s, it started to grow, in many ways exacerbated by COVID. But the title say- it does, "How Does Loneliness Fuel Information?" It doesn't say, "Does loneliness fuel information?" The article says, "How does it?" And it- one point it says, "In Canada, 13% of people over the age of 15, meaning more than one in 10 Canadians, report often or always feeling lonely. This number jumps to one in four for young people 15 to 24 years old." Now, here's where the article gets interesting to me. It says, "When we feel isolated, it's natural to seek out spaces where we feel seen, heard, and a sense of belonging. With the Internet, finding connections, community, and information can be right at your fingertips. But multiple studies, not just one, say connecting online actually can make loneliness worse," which is ironic. "Researchers have also linked loneliness with developing conspiracy theorist worldviews, which also lead to further isolation." So there's a study out of Norway last year, 2024, with 2,200 people, for nearly 30 years, to figure out what drives people into conspiracy theories. The key factor, they argue, is social alienation, which includes loneliness. Now, they argue three points, and I'm [chuckles] really curious your take on this one, Rick, is that loneliness drives a desire to find information that explains people's loneliness. Makes sense. So disinformation and misinformation can reframe loneliness, how it's understood and experienced, like the world is out to get you. People who feel lonely may not have people in their lives to question the information they're consuming, allowing their belief in misinformation to deepen, and once it, you know, develops, then they're likely to seek out further like-minded people. And finally, loneliness can motivate people to connect with a community, gain a sense of identity, and online conspiracy groups offer a sense of connection and well-being. I think I'm sold on this, not as explaining all of it, but some of it. But, give me your thoughts.
Rick Langer: Yeah. So, th I think this is actually pretty well-established with a lot of research on social isolation, conspiracy groups. Some of the things I mentioned even earlier than their three points, were, you know, the, [lips smack] tendency that we are having towards wanting to find community online and failing to do it. And I think, y- an online community... I- we used to call them virtual communities, which is a way better talk about it, because a virtual community implies it's not actually a community. It's virtually a community, which- ... Means it really isn't. And I think there's a lot of that feeling that when you find your attachment online, you're, you're half satisfied with your sense of attachment, and so you want-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... More, and you want more. And I think the full-blown conspiracy, the, kind of the raging controversy where the whole world is against us and we're banded together, I think that gives you more of the community kick. I think it's toxic. I think there's terrible things about it. But the point is, it gives you something that feels more real than the kind of virtual community you normally get if you just connect with people online, and you look at their Facebook page, and you do this and that.
Sean McDowell: Sure.
Rick Langer: It doesn't give you the intense kick. And so I think one of the things conspiracy kinds of things do is it gives you a bigger shot of endorphins or I don't know. You, you tell me what it is. But, you know-
Sean McDowell: Yeah, sure
Rick Langer: ... That kind of a thing, it gives you a bigger charge than you get otherwise.
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm. That's- oh, keep going, sorry.
Rick Langer: Y- well... So the other thing I have is a bigger thing. If you have something quick on that, go ahead and just share that.
Sean McDowell: No, no, do it. Do it. Go.
Rick Langer: So the best l- thing that I think they said in there was that idea is that i- you know, if people who are lonely don't have people to- with them who can question- ... Their thinking, and I think that is an absolutely huge thing. Th- two books I'll just highlight on this. One is by Alan Jacobs called How to Think.
Sean McDowell: Oh, nice.
Rick Langer: And it's a great book. Alan J- if you haven't read stuff by Alan Jacobs, I'd highly recommend him. And the other one is called Think Again, by Adam Grant, who's a guy at, you know, University of Pennsylvania, w- popular, you know, kind of TED Talk guy, but a really sound academic who's done a lot of research on these things. And both of them, one of the big themes in both of their books is the illusion of think for yourself as being a good way to think. [chuckles] ... And we say f- you know, "Hey, you need to think for yourself, so you're not conformed to your group." Well, the bottom line is we- number one, we can't think by ourselves. We're completely dependent on our, you know, language. We're dependent on the information we got from parents and from teachers. All these things are kind of the programming language, so to speak, of our own brain that we didn't come up with ourselves. And then usually why we think is because of in conversation with others and stuff like that, so thinking is an inherently social process, not just an abstract, individualized, personal mental process. And we don't appreciate that enough, and Alan Jacobs had some great stuff on that-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... We won't dive into here now but would encourage you to look at. The other thing is, once you realize that, "Oh, I can't think alone, I need to think with others," the key question to ask yourself is, "Who are my others?" And if I only think together with other people who agree with me, then I'm not really thinking with others. [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: That's right.
Rick Langer: It, it's like, "I read 100 books this year." "Oh, what books did you read?" I just... And, and you just say, "You know, well, I read, Lord of the Rings 100 times." And you're like, "Well, then you didn't read 100 books. You just kept reading and reading and reading the same book." And that's what happens when you hang out with people who think just like you. But if you say, "Well, no, I do read others. I read those people I disagree with..." But if you r- you probably need to ask yourself, "Am I reading them as a neighbor or as an enemy? Am I reading them with a hermeneutic of charity- ... Or am I reading them with a hermeneutic of malice?
Rick Langer: Do I read them wanting to learn and refine my own thinking, or do I read them so I can condemn their thinking?" And here's the thing about moral conviction, Sean. I have been trumpeting this for the last, you know, eight years, both in writing and speaking and stuff, but-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... I think one of the things that kills us with our moral convictions is that when you think about them for yourself, that you only generate one kind of conviction when you do that, and that is what I like to call a half-baked conviction. And by that, [chuckles] I don't mean half-baked in the sense of, "Oh, that's half-baked. You're gonna..." You know.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Rick Langer: I mean, think about it as half-cooked. It's only half done. It's a ban- loaf of banana bread that's only half done, and you pull it out, you stick the toothpick in it's goopy, and go, "Oh, it's not done yet." That doesn't make it wrong. It just means it's not done yet. Stick it back in the oven. And here's the deal: What is the oven for our convictions? It is conversations with other people, and not people who agree with us, because they don't add any heat to the oven. [chuckles] It's people who disagree with us. And you put it back in the oven. You talk to people who see things differently, and your conviction gets fully cooked. It gets done. It becomes healthier. It becomes refined. The rough edges are rubbed off it. And you begin to realize, "Wow, these are the people who helped me finish it, took away the things that I thought were clear, and they really weren't. They refined it. They nuanced it." And we tend to get these convictions in the absence of good, charitable readings of our critics that are sharp-edged, they're jagged, they cut people, they do way more harm than good, and they're not very good convictions [chuckles] ... Because we are ignorant of whole other moral, legitimate moral discourses that impinge on it, that wouldn't necessarily change our conviction but go, "Oh, I need to keep these guys in mind. Their thinking is something that's really true." So those are the things that hit me in there.
Sean McDowell: And that's true relationally, but it's true the podcasts we listen to, the YouTubers we follow, the Substacks [chuckles] that we read. We can surround ourselves with people who just agree with us and reinforce that, Christians and non-Christians. I just have two takes on this. I think what you point out is really good. Number one, if people in conspiracy theories are drawn there by loneliness, then we don't fix it by arguing them out of their position. We're going to fix it in part relationally, spending time with them, getting to know them, fulfilling what, in some ways, whether they realize it or not, what might be truly motivating this, which is a need for community. We want to respond to them relationally. And second, we can talk about other people and conspiracy theorists, but we also need to guard our own hearts. I was looking for a biblical teaching that talked about how we should guard against loneliness affecting our thinking, and I couldn't find any in the Bible because the idea of this epidemic of loneliness is really kind of a modern-
Rick Langer: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Idea, even though, of course, people were lonely back then, it wasn't the same kind of phenomenon. So there's really more about, like, guarding your heart against emotions like anger, which are different than loneliness, but we can act in a certain way and be inclined to adopt certain beliefs because of our anger. And so Proverbs 28:26 says, "Whoever trusts in his own heart is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be safe." Now, of course, heart is not just emotions, but the idea is, get wisdom from other people, wisdom from Scripture, and be careful that we aren't following into the susceptibility of this because of our own brokenness, whether it's loneliness or anxiety or some other emotion, I think is really important to keep in mind. Anything else on this one?
Rick Langer: All I'd add to that is, you know, Paul's command in, Colossians 3 about teach one another-
Sean McDowell: There you go
Rick Langer: ... And the idea that this, again, it's this communal process of getting a sound- ... Christian mind, that we do it together, and sometimes you get over-reliant on one person or one podcaster who thinks for you.
Sean McDowell: There you go.
Rick Langer: And-
Sean McDowell: Except this podcast. You can let us-
Rick Langer: That's, well, that's right
Sean McDowell: ... We're the one exception. [chuckles]
Rick Langer: We're, we're happy to do the... Right. [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: [chuckles] Obviously, we're kidding. All right, this next one, when I saw this in The Atlantic, was like, "What is happening?" And the title this week is Tesla Wants to Build a Robot Army.... Elon Musk, the world's richest man, is on the path to becoming the first trillionaire. So now, a billion is the old million, so to speak.
Rick Langer: [laughs]
Sean McDowell: It's just incredible to think about. Through a massive pay package, including stock options, but there are certain things he has to accomplish, which are a tall order, to get it. And the article says, "The payout will happen only if certain targets are met, including Musk's successful deployment of one million Optimus robots." Now, Optimus, named after the Transformers character, is a humanoid machine that's supposed to be able to complete boring and dangerous work in place of human beings. Overtime said that, you know, interesting, Musk said this could unleash unprecedented economic and societal change as a source of tireless, unpaid labor that could be trained to do anything. Quote by Musk, "Working will be optional, like growing your own vegetables instead of buying them from the store," he wrote on X last month. He says Optimus will be- will provide better medical care than a human surgeon can, eliminate the need for prisons by following... Having robots following criminal offenders around to prevent them from doing crime, which is just a disturbing thought. [laughing]
Rick Langer: [laughing]
Sean McDowell: And it's- that's a whole conversation right there. Now, and it's just crazy to think about. W- so it has still relied on human assistance so far for a lot of the robots that have been built, like serving drinks. We're not there yet. But what's fascinating, it's not just Tesla, but many other automakers are now pivoting to robotics, which in some ways makes sense, 'cause we've all seen images of factories that have robot-type arms building cars, and so they have access to this data. They have access to the technology. We're moving towards self-driving cars, so what does that mean for the car industry? In many ways, they're just trying to pivot, so to speak. The big challenge is what's called the hands problem. So, like, Chipotle unveiled a robot in 2023, but it could make a burrito bowl or salad, but not a burrito, 'cause it [laughs] requires such careful folding. So this convergence between robotics and cars is underway, and here's the last line: "The ultimate goal for that isn't far off from what Optimus is supposedly trying to do, guard your life and save you time. Maybe then you can finally give that vegetable garden the attention it deserves." Robot army, Rick, what's your take?
Rick Langer: Okay, so, like, that was a really disturbing headline. [laughs]
Sean McDowell: Yes.
Rick Langer: The article was only mildly disturbing in comparison, so-
Sean McDowell: Agreed
Rick Langer: ... The, I guess there's really only one thing that I really wanna highlight on it, is that phrase, and you read it, about, work becoming optional- ... Like growing vegetables instead of buying them from the store. And I'd just like to push the pause button there when I see that going, "Is, is work optional for human beings?" And I would argue that, you know, if we are created in God's image, and we are called to multiply, fill, rule, and subdue the Earth, you're hearing "rule and subdue" language, we should be hearing work language. These are the things that we do to work. We manage, we tend, we cultivate the earth. And I think that's part of what it means to be human, and making it optional, I think is honestly dangerous and even harmful. Let me put it this way. The only thing worse than having to work a boring job is not having a job that you can work.
Sean McDowell: Oh, wow.
Rick Langer: I would take a boring job over unemployment- ... Any day. And I think most people would, too, if you look at the psychological well-being of people who are, cannot be employed and all that kind of thing. And I'm not an advocate for boring work-
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
Rick Langer: ... But I am saying boring work is work. And it is a thing that, I think Milton has this great line in Paradise Lost about work being some- one of the last, bastion of human dignity, is the ability to work and provide for yourself and for others. There's a sense of meaning that comes from it. We're built for it. We're made for it. So I get really queasy when I hear things like, "This won't it be great, and then you can only ever do what you wanna do? You don't have to do anything." And in effect, you become a passenger on the ship of life- ... As opposed to a crew member. And I'm like, you know what? There are two ways to disenfranchise a person. You can deny them their, you know, privileges- ... And you can deny them their, your responsibilities. And say, "We don't actually need you. We can, we can take care of everything ourselves, so do whatever you wanna do," that doesn't make you feel good. We need to be needed.
Sean McDowell: I'm really glad you focused on work, because that's partly what jumped out to me, and you're right. A, a boring job is preferable, not just because you're paying the bills, but because you have purpose, and because a part of human nature we see in Genesis, the first two chapters in Genesis, is God has made us to work before the Fall, by the way, in Genesis-
Rick Langer: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Chapter 3. So that leads me to believe there will be a kind of work in Heaven. We have been made to work. Work is good. Work makes us fulfilled in life. It is a good built into creation. And so that underlying worldview is not in this article. It's kind of like Musk has this worldview, at least, and the author of the article, that if we just get rid of work, then we could tend to our garden, vegetable... And in some ways, you could say that's a kind of work, so I get that. But really, the point is, like, we could just do leisure things and relax and enjoy life.... And I think that's rooted in a very different worldview than a biblical worldview. So whenever I read something like this that is talking about the future, I think a couple things. Number one, the future just doesn't show up, bam, overnight. It's step by step, like the classic example of boiling the frog in the- [chuckles]
Rick Langer: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Water, and it doesn't jump out apparently. Whether that's true or not, we understand the story. If it's thrown in boiling water, it jumps out, but if it's boiled, apparently it won't jump out. Again, whether it's true or not, the point is, change is step by step. And the integration of humans and robots, people have been talking about it forever, going way back. Now, with AI, and someone like Musk, who really has [chuckles] superhuman abilities and mind on some level, makes us think if anyone could pull this off over the next decade, he could pull it off. So I think we're hitting arguably a tipping point where there's acceptance of kind of robots replacing humans in different ways, where we might not have been five or 10 years ago, and the technology is getting closer to it. That'd be my suspicion, but this utopian worldview behind it, I think just deeply miss- doesn't take in, into consideration things like human depravity. I mean, the way it ends is like, "We have all these robots that do boring jobs. We can tend our garden..." And almost the example of a garden is, like, ironic to a garden-
Rick Langer: Yes, indeed
Sean McDowell: ... In the [chuckles] beginning of the Bible. It's like, "Oh, we could just be back in the garden, and everything would be wonderful." I don't think the author intended it that way, but reading it Christian is like, "No, we've tried this before, where you have a utopian garden, and things don't work out." So I'm all for robots in principle. If they can do boring jobs without people losing their job, but having more exciting jobs, awesome. If they can do dangerous jobs, awesome. If they can be effectively and appropriately used for defense, great. But do I have confidence that they will stay there? I don't. So it-
Rick Langer: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... It concerns me slightly. Anything else in the story jump out to you?
Rick Langer: Yeah, I think we've hit the big things, and that, to me, was really the big walkaway, those work issue- the visions of goodness that they had, what is it that's driving Musk? And to be able to have a Christian pushback that says, "You know what? That isn't actually good." "That's not how we were made."
Sean McDowell: Good, good stuff. Now, this one jumped out to me. This is an op-ed in The New York Times, and the title... Folks, we'll try to keep it appropriate, but we're talking about ratings in movies- ... So if you have young kids around, you might just hit pause or put your headphones in. The title is, "How Much Sex, Drugs, and Violence Can Be in a PG-13 Movie?" So the movie ratings board has pulled back the curtain on how it approaches hot-button topics like nudity, marijuana, guns, and, this jumped out to me, 'cause there's a Christian way we should think about watching movies. So according to the article, "For decades, a board of parents established by the Motion Picture Association has rated movies based on their perceived suitability for children and teenagers." So these are not executives deciding this. They brought parents in, which is good. "It has declared the mission of rating a movie the way a majority of American parents would, a tricky assignment obviously for a range of reasons. But in the past, they've given us limited glimpses into the system. Now, I guess they're disclosing more specifics about how movies are assessed. So one thing they say is a PG-13 rating tends to open a door to a wider audience than an R rating does, while an NC-17 rating can be a kiss of death." Okay, fair enough. So in some of the ways that movies that people make and the ratings they want are designed to make money and appeal to a larger audience. So they give an example here about how when filmmakers disagree with the board, filmmakers can actually edit their movies, release it without a rating, or appeal to a separate board. So this happened in 2023 when a movie secured a PG-13 rating, I'm not gonna mention it, when there was a very brief nude shot of an actress who's well-known. They appealed it and got a PG-13 rating. Why? Not because the movie makers give a rip about how it affects people, but they want more people to see the movie. There was, a decade ago, a film that clearly showed marijuana use tended to receive an R rating. That was true in a 2009 film. But the guide makes clear that infrequent marijuana use is now acceptable in PG-13 movies. So in part, what we're seeing, Rick, is things in the past that would get an R rating have shifted, and things like marijuana use have shifted. The N-word, understandably, is far more on people's radar than it was, say, 20, 30 years ago or so. So how does this strike you, and maybe how should we, as Christians, look at movie ratings in general with ourselves and with kids?
Rick Langer: Yeah, so I guess a couple of [chuckles] quick things. So when I looked at this article, I thought, "Sean, what's the big deal?" you know, [chuckles] when I-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... I was reading it before-
Sean McDowell: I agree to one level.
Rick Langer: I was kind of like, "Eh, well, whatever." s- but let me make a couple of comments about it. I... The first thing I think I wanna say is, I actually appreciate the people who do this job. I'm- you know, somebody's gotta do it, and I think they had a great line in there, I can't remember exactly, you know, what they said about this isn't a science, and that's a good thing, and then this isn't a science, and that's a bad thing. [chuckles] Because y- that means you get things wrong, it isn't always right. There's subjectivity in it, and I'm like, "Well, that's probably appropriate for measuring movies. I don't know how to make it rigid and tight," and so this kind of a strategy, I think, is probably as good as you're gonna get. You're gonna get a batch of parents together who watch it, and then-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... Make their assessment, and it's helpful for me to have that. And the thing that I'd kinda like to say first of all is, I hear people complaining about-... Ratings all the time, but I'm kinda like, "Let's just celebrate what they actually do do, and then augment it with our own guides and reflections," which is kind of what we're doing. So I'm kinda like, you know what? The movie thing, I feel like is actually working okay because I see that dual thing. One thing that's standard, and people know that rating. TV is a contrast to that to me, 'cause I will- I stream TV shows all the time-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... And I see things on these TV shows that I thought, "Wow! Wow, that would be, in my mind, either R-rated or NC-17," and it just, boom, up it pops. And they do have these little ratings, but for whatever reason, the TV ratings aren't a thing we seem to talk about or care about. Whereas a PG-13, because of how it's been structured in the system, I don't even know exactly why, but a movie maker may say, "Okay, I'm gonna re-edit this and limit maybe, you know, two seconds here or five seconds there, and I suddenly get a PG-13 rating, and I have a bigger audience." I'm like, "Well, good. Good," that... You know, you're seeing some kind of pushback on the content that can come from that, and so I'm kinda grateful for this system. And I am really doubtful that we're gonna get much better, and I would say, therefore, what we wanna do is just add more of our own. You know, we can, we can augment it, and we have a lot of those sources to do.
Sean McDowell: No, I agree with you. That was part of my initial response, but I still have a 13-year-old at home, so I'm using these ratings-
Rick Langer: Yeah [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: ... Differently than when [chuckles] you know, I'm, all my kids are gone, so it hit home a little differently. And I'd always kinda wondered, "What is the process behind this? How do they decide?" So some of it was interesting, and I discovered that in some countries like Australia, Canada, and Singapore, there's an official government board that decides on the ratings. In countries like Denmark, Japan, and the US, it's done by an industry with little or any official government status. So that was kind of interesting, and I looked- people can pull on Wikipedia if they want to, and there's country after country, dozens and dozens of different ratings that are all unique, but they kinda match up with just different ages and what's appropriate for kids at different stages. So I thought that was interesting. One thing I would say to parents is, how do we use ratings when we evaluate movies for others and for ourselves? And sometimes we, as Christians, tend to just say, "Well, if it's PG-13, then my kids... I'll view it first. Maybe they can watch it. If it's R, it's out." And we count the number of F words, we count the amount of violence, and assess a movie through that lens. Now, those things are important, but I suggest we look at movies a little bit more thoughtfully and deeply. So there's a mo- there's a book that was updated just three years ago, and it's called The Message Behind the Movie by Doug Beaumont, and he had an exercise in there I started doing with my students, is he would show... This was high school students when I taught worldview and film. I would show two scenes from an R-rated movie for violence. One is I would show the classic scene from The Matrix movie-
Rick Langer: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: ... Where Trinity and Neo walk into the building to release Morpheus. They have glasses, black trench coats on. They're blowing people away. It feels like a video game, diving off walls. That movie is R for violence. And then I show them the opening scene to Saving Private Ryan, also R for violence. And I ask students, I say, "This is the same rating. How should we assess these?" And very quickly they realize that all violence is not equal. It's how it's portrayed. That's what matters. Now, I don't- if I'm watching a war movie, it's not gonna bother me if there's a few F-bombs, because that's going to happen in war. My wife just can't take it and doesn't wanna hear it. That's fine. If I'm watching a comedy, and somebody's just adding that in to try to be funny, I'm thinking, "That's not appropriate. That's not necessary. I have no space and time for this." If somebody says, "Well, there should never be nudity in a film," what about Schindler's List? Schindler's List has nudity in it, but the point is to show how deeply, by Steven Spielberg, the Jews were just dehumanized and mistreated by the Nazis. Now, of course, I'm not gonna let a 11-year-old see that, obviously, but I think we need to use the ratings but go beyond that and look at the context. Are the consequences shown? And also, you know, h- be really deeply honest with ourselves, how much does it affect us? And that's where I think some of what might affect you might be different than affects me, given our experience, our spiritual maturity, whatever those factors are. So like you, I thank God for the ratings, and I'm glad they've showed us a little bit more. People can read the report if they want to, if they're interested. It's online. It's really not that super interesting, but I think it gave us a chance to just say, "Let's think biblically about movies," and not just ratings, but why is it shown? So maybe one quick point is there's parts of the Bible that could arguably get a PG-13 rating, plus maybe.
Rick Langer: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: I know it's not visual, but read Judges.
Rick Langer: Oh, man.
Sean McDowell: I mean, the way it describes is brutal, especially at the end. But what's the point? "And everyone did that which was right in their own eyes." So it's not glorifying the violence, like Schindler's List or like Saving Private Ryan. It's showing it to teach a moral lesson about sin and war and depravity, so we don't repeat it. Any other thoughts on this one, Rick?
Rick Langer: I think you've captured it well, and I just would underscore that issue about saying, when it comes right- like I mentioned, that we, you know, take what-... Take what these things are giving and say, "Okay, great, good starting point for thinking about things, but we need to augment it." And I couldn't agree more with your point about saying that the augmentation of that can't just be an exercise in counting F-bombs or X many minutes or seconds of nudity or whatever it is. You need to think about the themes, you th- need to think about the message, and you need to think about it as a whole. That reinforces a concern about it's gonna be somewhat subjective, you can't get it scientific. But I'm like, that's fine. Y- we- but you just need to have your antenna up for the big picture, not just the, you know, the tiny details or particular kinda legalistic offenses.
Sean McDowell: Exactly, yeah. One other quick example is, like, some movies show violence, and you're jarred by it, and you realize, "Oh, that act is horrific," and makes you uncomfortable. But then there's movies like the... I can't remember if it's the second or third Guardians of the Galaxy, where this one character is just killing a ton of people with this arrow that he whistles, and it's almost, like, turned into a comedic-type scene. I think it's the second one. And I'm watching this going, "Wait a minute, I'm being entertained by people who have an arrow going through their head, and there's entertaining music here." There's a disconnect between how terrible this is and how it's making me feel. You know, we are supposed to be angry at the right things. We're supposed to be sad at the right things. We're supposed to be happy at the right things. But when movies shape our affections, where it creates us to have the wrong response to evil or the wrong response to something that's sad, that's shaping us in ways we might not realize, and so we've gotta- We'll prob- You know what? We've talked about this a little bit. Let us know if you want us to do a full episode on this. One of my, one of... I sometimes thought I missed my calling, Rick, as, like, a movie critic-
Rick Langer: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: ... And analyst from a worldview perspective. I thought about making, writing a whole book on this.
Rick Langer: Yeah, yeah.
Sean McDowell: It just intrigues me so much. So let us know, those of you who are listening, if this kinda topic is helpful and interesting to you further. All right, we got a big shift here. This is another piece in The New York Times, and Rick, it's like every single week, a story is coming out about revival. I mean, a story came out this week about increased Bible sales. I had a friend send me an article from the Vanderbilt football team about how... I think it was in sportsillustrated.com, about how there's kinda revival taking place through the football team. And so this one jumped out to me, in part because the story- also because now The New York Times is covering stories like this.
Rick Langer: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: I mean, Ross-
Rick Langer: Isn't that amazing?
Sean McDowell: It is, right? Like, Ross Douthat, who's one of the few [chuckles] conservative columnists there, he's Catholic, has talked about how the audience of The New York Time from 10 years ago shifted from kind of a new atheist vibe to an openness and a curiosity, and I think this article reflects it. So it starts off by saying, "In the whole history of the Orthodox Church in America, this has never been seen." Now, what is taking place? The article by Ruth Graham says, "Something is changing in an otherwise quiet corner of Christianity in the US, and it's in an area that prides itself on how little it has changed [chuckles] in its practice and theology over time. Priests are swapping stories about record attendance numbers," which, by the way, is also happening amongst Evangelicals and Protestants. "Parishioners are strategizing about how to accommodate more prospective converts than existing clergy can reasonably handle on their own. The ancient tradition of Orthodox Christianity is attracting energetic new adherents," and here's the key, "especially among conservative young men." In the US, Orthodox Christianity is by far the smallest and least known of the three branches of Christianity. It's, like, less than 1%. So of course, when we say historic Christianity, we mean Catholics, which they say are about 20%, Protestants about 40%, and then Eastern or Orthodox about 1%. But what's interesting is now they're not just talking... Usually Orthodox was those who came over from, say, I don't know, Russia or from some other countries and would come here. Now there's a homegrown Orthodox movement that's beginning, and many young Americans new to the pews have been introduced to Orthodoxy by hard-edge influencers on YouTube and other social media platforms. That's a big piece of this story. So according to a student at North Carolina, he says Orthodoxy, quote, "appeals to the masculine soul." Now, you and I don't have to debate whether bodies and/or souls are actually gendered, but we get the point [chuckles] of what he's saying here. He says, quote, "The Orthodox Church is the only church that really coaches men hard and says, 'This is what you need to do.'" This is a 20-year-old analysis. Back to the article, it says, "Gen Z is upending the expectations of many scholars and faith leaders who watched the country steadily secularizing for decades, with each generation less religious than the last. Some surveys suggest that young adult men are defying that trend," and we've talked about here, those who at least define themselves as the nones, N-O-N-E-S, have plateaued really for the first time since the '90s. Now, one quick point. We won't do a full deep dive here on the Orthodox Church, but the article says that, "It traces its lineage through Christ and the early apostles," that's what they believe. "As Christianity expanded in its first millennium, a theological and political divide opened between the Eastern Church and Western, or Roman Catholic, Church."... There was a schism in the 11th century, so we're four, 500 years before the Protestant, Reformation, over issues like papal authority, which divided. That was really one of the key issues, and of course, that led to differences within Eastern Orthodoxy we won't go into. Now, one piece of this, there's a lot here, but it really frames the story, is they tend to be- those drawn to Orthodox Christianity tend to be younger and more male than other Christian groups. So 60% of them are men, compared with Evangelicals, it's 46%. That's a huge, significant growth, and 24% are younger than 30, compared with 14% of Evangelicals. So it's more male and more- and younger than Evangelicals, and the explanation for this, I thought, was interesting. Some converts report that Orthodoxy has a more masculine feel. Priests must be male and can marry, but unlike Catholics as a whole, and often have large beards and big families. Orthodoxy [chuckles] asks practitioners to make sacrifices like fasting, rather than offering emotional, contemporary music and therapeutic sermons, according to this author, which critically des- typically describes Evangelical megachurch experience. They just say young men need purpose. Now, there's other stuff here. I love this piece of it. They also said, Rick, they said, "Another common denominator that's point out is that they're being drawn by the treatment of the supernatural." A Father Damick said that there's an openness to faith healing and spiritual warfare that's a piece to this. Really interesting. One quote says, "You're much more likely to see growth in churches that are not just conservative morally, but that take the unseen world seriously." I love that. Now, th- I did not see this coming in the article, by the way, is that they talk about how the online influencers many young people credit with introducing them to Orthodoxy speak directly about politics in a culture in a way that parishes often don't. So we're maybe seeing a similar phenomena like we've seen with Charlie Kirk attracting young men to the church, that he doesn't just talk about the faith, but would talk about his views on politics. They tend to be socially conservative, interested in traditional family, pushing back on feminism, LGBTQ, but then it says they are also generally opposed to the state of Israel. That caught my attention, and we could come back to this, but there are some Orthodox Christian writers like Rod Dreher, New York Times best-selling author, who's warned about anti-Semitism in the wider culture within the conservative movement and within Orthodoxy. Last thing that ends with... I g- I'm giving- I really am giving a lot here, more than normal, but it says, "The couple said they were, uh..." Who was drawn to it, "said they were looking forward to raising an Orthodox family, one oriented around duty, truth, and, quote, 'objective beauty standards.'" Give me your takeaway on this, Rick.
Rick Langer: Let me pick up a thread off that last one, then there's one other comment I'd like to make. The-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Rick Langer: ... Objective beauty standards-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... That has been a thing for Orthodoxy, I think roughly forever. But, particularly if you go back to how the Russian, con- you know, section of, the continent became, Orthodox, is there's a story about Peter the Great sending out all of his, these guys to these different churches to check them all out and he goes to the Roman church, he goes, you know, he goes here and there and all this. And then they send someone to the Eastern Orthodox Church, and he makes this comment that in the worship service, he felt this experience of being in heaven, that heaven had come to Earth- ... In the beauty, the aesthetic of the worship service, and that was part of why they converted. It's an interesting, uh- ... Story, and you know, it- yeah, it- so-
Sean McDowell: Sure
Rick Langer: ... That's a thing that they have done and done well, and they have, with that, retained things like beauty and mystery. They, they're much more-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... Content to allow unresolved tensions between our materiality and our spirituality. Evangelicals, I think, have drifted, as many people have over the course of the centuries, towards kind of a hyper-spiritualized, all that matters is your spirit, and your body kind of comes along for the ride. And then one day, you get rid of it, you get rid of this earth suit, and then you go off to heaven. And there's a current of this kind of over-spiritualized-ness that I think deals with a lot of church, traditions, and the Orthodox Church has always had a very high regard for the physical body. And I think that and the only reason they're able to retain that is 'cause they're okay with the tension between our materiality and our spirituality, and they don't feel like they have to deny one to honor the other. So there's some things in there that I think are really interesting and, you know, right and good. I mean, I think that issue of the tension between our physicality and our spirituality, it's just a thing. I don't, I don't know what to do with it, but I'd hate to get rid of one by, it so I can honor the other, and I think they do a good job of allowing both to coexist. And then one other thing in the article, there was a line said, "There's, there's just more validity in a church that can trace its lineage all the way back to the apostles."
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Rick Langer: And I wanna do something to validate that and then question it. [chuckles] in other words, to validate, that is exactly what the Orthodox Church does, right? It does trace it back to the apostles, and the literature that they're performing today is really, it's the liturgy that was written by John Chrysostom in, whatever it was, 4th century AD. So it is... You, you go to an Orthodox church today, and you are going through a liturgy-... That is 1,600 years old, and it's basically been unchanged. It may have been translated from Greek to where, it may not have been translated, depending upon where you're going [chuckles] and it's just like, this is... Yeah, this is that sense of I am reentering into that narrative. My only pushback is the idea that they're the only church that would trace themselves back to the apostles.
Sean McDowell: Right. Right, good.
Rick Langer: And, I think evangelical- well, number one, I would wanna say, I would hope evangelicals would say, "Well, wait a minute, we wanna trace our lineage back to the apostles, too." But then what we- I would encourage us to do one of those think again things like I mentioned a minute ago, that you listen to your opponents or something and say, "Why is it that people think we wouldn't wanna trace our lineage back to the apostles?" And I would argue it's not because of our beliefs but because of our practices. We tend to shun anything that is traditional. We don't recite creeds. We don't recite, Lord's Prayers and things like that. We, we have kind of a disdain for that oftentimes. It's empty nominalism or things like that. And I'm like, it can certainly be done that way, but the idea that because you can do it badly, does that mean there's no way to do it well? And I think it'd be really good for us to own the fact that we can't teach our people, about the Christian faith in such a way that if you know, ask one of them, "So what do you know about church history?" And they say, "Oh, I know a lot about it. Our pastor moved to Denver in 19, uh- " [laughing] And you're like, "No, no. That's the history of your church. You are part of- ... The Church." And for good and for ill, 2,000 years' worth of Christians have followed Jesus, and their blood courses through our veins. It isn't just the good things, it's the bad things. We are these folks, and we are carrying the light now for what they have done, and we can't deny it. And we hurt ourselves, our integrity, if we don't acknowledge the fact that we really are carrying on a tradition that is 2,000 years old. But I think our practices- ... Sometimes deny what hopefully our lips would affirm.
Sean McDowell: That's, that's a really good point, is that Catholics, Protestant, and Orthodox would all trace their roots back to the apostles and to the early church. We have an episode coming up soon with Fred Sanders, our very own from Torrey, one of the leading Trinity experts in the world, excellent on doctrine and church history, making this very argument. But when you go in a typical Protestant church, Anglicanism aside, you're probably not gonna have this feel of an ancient faith that takes you back beyond... I thought you were gonna say not just the pastor, but like, "Oh, church history, Billy Graham." Like, even though [chuckles] young people don't know who Billy Graham is, that's like church history for us, maybe in the middle of the 20th century. We've lost that. So in some ways, one of the strengths of Protestantism is, like, come as you are. You don't have to be formal, at least a strain of Protestantism we see in movements like Calvary Chapel, and my church is like a surf culture. You can literally surf, come to church. Like, I love that we meet people where they're at, but do we lose something amidst that? And is there a way to get that back and maintain it, is a very fair question. So, to me, this article points out a few things that really got my attention, is again, why are men being attracted to this? And I think a lot of young men, we've seen this in sitcoms going back to the '90s. Apart from, you know, Cosby, it's the man who's kind of the loser. It's the mom who saves the day. He's just kind of a joke. We've seen it portrayed that way going back-
Rick Langer: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... In film, and we've seen it in TV shows. And there's a lot of people who've been told, if you're a young, and in many ways, white male, you are the problem with everything. We see this within critical theory. So there's no surprise that people who have just [chuckles] kind of felt like they've been beaten down will gravitate towards something that says, "You have purpose. You matter. There's something to be a male." And on the flip side, that this article would also include antisemitism gives me a pause that we're seeing this everywhere, not just within the Orthodox Church. Just last week, Scott and I-
Rick Langer: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Talked about-
Rick Langer: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... The concern of antisemitism, of some people who are reacting against a kind of identity politics that they feel like attacked white people. Now it's like we're gonna go to another kind of identity politics and lean into being a white... I'm like, this is a mistake clearly on both sides of this. So I think it's worth asking, and again, why are men drawn to this? But some of the things that just jumped out to me that we've got to recover as a church- ... Just like you said, objective beauty. There's such a thing as beauty in the world, in God's creation, and we not only ar- have to argue Christianity's true, but we want to argue that it's beautiful. The supernatural? That is so cool that people are saying, "We are drawn to this unseen realm," which why I've been doing so many shows on my YouTube channel about near-death experiences and demonic encounters, and angelic visitations. People are drawn to this, and of course, giving people purpose. So even though we have differences with Orthodoxy, I'm encouraged that people are returning to the supernatural, care about an ancient faith, care about what Jesus taught, and wanna reconnect spiritually. To me, this is a sign of a good day, but we're gonna have to track and see where this goes in 5 to 10 years, 'cause we just don't have a lot of data on this in the American church.... All right, Rick, let's shift to some questions, but first, I just wanna invite people to consider studying with us at Talbot. We have programs online, and we have programs offline in leadership. We have programs in marriage, Old Testament, New Testament, apologetics, philosophy, so many more. Think about studying with us online and in person.
Rick Langer: One of my favorite things that I've had in teaching experience as being a professor at Talbot-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... Is actually teaching the D.Min. Program, which is one of the-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Rick Langer: -things that we offer. And, I've taught in the, Engaging Mind and Culture track. I'm the mentor for that track, and we're-
Sean McDowell: Great track
Rick Langer: ... Actually just starting a new one up. And a lot of what we do is actually a lot of the kind of things that we model in very short level on this, the Cultural Update track, where we look at things that are going on-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Rick Langer: ... And we kind of, we observe theology in the wild, so to speak, and think about what's really going on in that context, looking deeper. And so let me encourage people to think about that. If you're a person drawn to those things, consider that, either, you know, I'd love to have you join me, but also there's several other interesting tracks, and a D.Min. Is a great opportunity to kind of deepen your resources if you're in active ministry and, or, you know, leaning that way. So it'd be a good thing to think about.
Sean McDowell: Excellent. I love it. That's a wonderful program, and I'm, I'm thrilled you're still a key part of that, Rick. So this first one, I mean, a million things could be said, but this person is talking about, "Is the world getting darker each day? Is that the only way to interpret prophetic scripture?" this speaker, the person heard. And basically at the end said, "I love your thoughts about this view and would appreciate if you did a full podcast episode on it." I don't know about a full podcast episode on a theological issue. That tends to not be our exact lane here.
Rick Langer: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: But you wanna give just one or two comments that might help here?
Rick Langer: Well, I think there's a read of, premillennials, so typical dispensational view of the millennium is the premillennial view, and it is often characterized as things get darker and darker before Christ's return. And then you have a countervailing view that, you know, of kind of the world is getting better, and Jesus will return to a thriving human culture-
Sean McDowell: Right. Right
Rick Langer: ... That the Church has kind of brought to fulfillment, which is the post-millennial view. And let me just, I, we don't wanna do the deep dive in this, but a quick comment on this, about the world getting darker and darker. Yes, I think dispensational does have a view that before the end, things will be dark, but let me also make an interesting observation. I've noticed this, Sean, that every day the world gets darker and darker, and then somewhere around 7 o'clock in the morning, it gets lighter again. [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing] Okay.
Rick Langer: And I am not trying to be mock this, but I'm saying no, cultures have gone through our own days. The sun rises-
Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's true
Rick Langer: ... The sun sets, and it does get darker, and when you live in a culture and things are getting dark, you think the whole world is getting dark. And I'm like, you know what? That is always what we thought. We've also very- always thought that Jesus is gonna come back to save our cultural slice, and the bottom line is, he hasn't really felt moved that he has to do that. So yeah, the culture gets darker. The culture gets lighter. Hard to read anything from that about, does Jesus have to come back tomorrow? I'm like- ... We will go through those cycles. One other quick thought on this is people say, "Hey, if things are gonna get worse and worse, and then Jesus comes back, why should we bother, straightening the deck chairs on a sinking ship?" And the thing I always say about that is I say, "Well, you explain to me, has anything other than a sinking ship ever been built in the history of the world?" Every single ship we build is on the way to sinking, right? Have you not heard of entropy? [chuckles] This... They all go down. And the point is, the only kind of a deck chair you ever straighten on a ship is one that's on a sinking ship. And every culture we're making, these aren't things that are gonna last forever, so the only thing you can do is tend and make the most of the things that you have at the time- ... And you will be responsible for it. And, you know, the only reason you would argue that you don't need to straighten the deck chairs on your sinking ship is because you're convinced this is the last voyage. "I don't need to scrub the deck. I don't, because now we're going down," and that's exactly what happens. We get afraid. We, we get these apocalyptic fears, and then we say, "We'll abandon working for good in our culture and just wait for Jesus to come back." And that doesn't make sense dispensationaly, it doesn't make sense post-millennial, it doesn't make sense at all.
Sean McDowell: Very, very helpful. That was great. Good, good response, for starters. Tell you what, I'll give some thoughts on the second one, and then I'll throw the third one to you. The second one, this individual says they're thankful for Christian commentary on a number of issues related to sexuality, homosexuality, pornography, transgenderism, but has rarely heard addressed pedophilia or sexual attraction to children. What ought a Christian response look like? What would you do if a young man you know told you he was struggling with this? Now, it's not just young men, although it's far likely more young men-
Rick Langer: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Than it would be young women. And I would say a couple things. I think it's partly less discussed because it hasn't been promoted as much, although there are some circles that have pushed pedophilia. It hasn't been pushed and promoted as much as other LGBTQ issues have, and certainly, you know, pornography is... It's not as prevalent as pornography. So I think there's some reasons people may not talk about it as much. I would say two things. If someone came to me, the first thing I would do is I would listen, and I'd just ask questions, and I would try to understand. "Tell me when you first felt this way. Who else have you told? Why do you think you feel this way?" I would listen, but second, I would know immediately that I am out of my depth. This is an issue now we've shifted specifically towards children, and I wouldn't go tell the police on somebody, because you want people who struggle with this to feel open to share enough-... But also the urgency of, like, I would get a professional trained counselor, so accountability is built in right away with this person, and definitely not try to deal with it myself. Now, I know God's grace applies to all of our issues, but this is one that really raises the red flag for me that I would go straight to a professional within due time. Anything you wanna add to that one really quick before we go to the third, or?
Rick Langer: I mean, I think in general I'm happy to let you be the guy who fields all questions about pedophilia. [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing] I just might quote you on that.
Rick Langer: [laughing]
Sean McDowell: Fair enough. All right, well, you get a rainbow one, actually, now-
Rick Langer: See, there you go
Sean McDowell: ... Ironically, on different levels. Talk about a simple, you know, bright question. It says, "Can rainbows still be revelatory?" So this person is asking... You know, they saw a rainbow yesterday, and we've had some in Southern California recently. What does this mean theologically? Are they still an ongoing covenant, or was the rainbow just related to Genesis 9 and the flood a one-time thing? What's your take?
Rick Langer: Well, let me, let me just f- talk a little bit about that very first question: Can rainbows still be revelatory? I think this is a better question than people sometimes might think. I-
Sean McDowell: Oh, nice.
Rick Langer: So let me give an- let... Quick answer to that is yes, absolutely, would be my first comment. My second comment would be, actually, everything you see, every tree you touch-
Sean McDowell: Oh
Rick Langer: ... Every cloud you see, every bit of grass you walk on, these are acts of what we sometimes call general revelation. And here's the point about general and special revelation. We think of special revelation commonly associated with the Bible. We can nuance that, but that's, you know, basically what I think of special acts of revelation, not accessible to everyone. There's general revelation that is generally accessible, that people have access to without any special intervention, special intervention by God. So you have these, revelatory things, and I'm like, "Guys, if it's revelatory, that means it is a window into the mind of God." God is doing this thing in order to make something about Himself known to you.
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
Rick Langer: And so part of our obligation as Christians, I think, is not just to read Scripture as an act of revelation-
Sean McDowell: Good
Rick Langer: ... But to read our world as an act of revelation. So rainbows included. But I think one of the things, like, a Christian scientist should always be thinking about is to let their studies not just drop back downward into the object that they're studying, but arc upwards into God Himself and saying, "What do I see? What do I understand about God from these things I'm seeing in His creation?" Because we know His creation was an act of revelation. God's crazy. You know, sometimes when He speaks, out comes words, and you get them written down by a prophet, and they become the Book of Jeremiah. Sometimes when God speaks, He says, "Let there be light," and kaboom, there's light. And then He says, "Let there be dry land," and there's dry land. And sometimes when God speaks, things come out of His mouth, [chuckles] so to speak. He calls physical things into being, but that doesn't mean they're not revelatory. They're exactly revelatory, and the question is, do we read them as that? Do we see God in them? Do we make revelatory sense out of our objects, or do we just treat them as a thing? Something you can bump into in the night. And I think the thing that we really do wanna do is read things revelatorily, see them- ...
Rick Langer: As revelation, see God acting, speaking, communicating to us through them, 'cause that's what it means for it to be general revelation.
Sean McDowell: I think that's true for all general revelation. I would argue that the special revelation still applies to here. I find no reason to believe that this covenant, which is-
Rick Langer: Oh, yeah
Sean McDowell: ... For a certain place and certain time. So I mean, it says, "Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth," so it repeats, this is in Genesis 9, what, of course, is in Genesis 1. It says, "Don't eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood," which is also repeated in Acts 15. This is 9:4. And then part of that says, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in His image." Now, there's what you could argue a defense of capital punishment rooted in people being made in God's image, mean it's transcendent, and I would argue eternal. Verse 9 says, "I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you," which is all of us apply to this. And He says, "I will establish my covenant with you, that you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." So I think that still does apply. I was talking with my wife [chuckles] this week about it, and I don't know that I can answer this. Maybe we should tap a Hebrew scholar at Talbot. Either God changed the laws of physics and introduced a rainbow at this point for the first time, or He had built in the rainbow, knowing this would happen, and says, "Now you see that rainbow. This is what it's for." But still, I think when we see a rainbow, I've recently believed that this covenant still applies. Agree or disagree?
Rick Langer: Oh, I agree completely. Yeah, so I-
Sean McDowell: Good.
Rick Langer: Nothing I was saying about the general part of it would invalidate the fact that this is still a thing that is a sign of a covenant, particularly like a Noahic Covenant, where you're like, "Look-
Sean McDowell: Yep
Rick Langer: ... We didn't even have the Abrahamic Covenant at this point." [chuckles] And so when it says all people-
Sean McDowell: That's right, that's right
Rick Langer: ... It's gotta be applying to people who are not part of the Abrahamic Covenant or later covenants that come as well.
Sean McDowell: Good stuff, and I still think that commandment to multiply and fill the earth still applies. Now, Scott Rae disagrees with me on this, so there's times where we-
Rick Langer: That's only because Scott's wrong
Sean McDowell: ... Disagree.
Rick Langer: So that's okay.
Sean McDowell: And he's not here to defend himself-
Rick Langer: That's why we get to say this
Sean McDowell: ... So we will leave it on that note. Exactly. Scott, we hope you're listening, man. We'll give you a chance next week or the week after to respond. Rick, always appreciate you coming on. Thanks for such great commentary, and really wish you the best with that DMin program. People are listening, they wanna study culture from a biblical, theological perspective. It's a wonderful doctoral program. This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. As I said earlier, we have master's programs online and in person in theology, Bible, New Testament, Old Testament, apologetics, philosophy, spiritual formation, marriage and family, and more. Please submit your comments and your excellent questions to us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. We'd really ask you to take a moment to give us a rating on your podcast app if you haven't done so so far. It really helps us more [chuckles] than I could say, and if this is helpful, consider sharing it with a friend. Thanks for listening, and we will see you Tuesday when our regular episode airs. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
