BONUS: 14 Questions with Stuart and Cliffe Knechtle

Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] All right, friends. Sean McDowell here. Welcome to one of my favorite episodes we're gonna post on the Think Biblically podcast ever, and there's a reason for this. We're taking the month off, from the weekly cultural update, and I'm posting some conversations that I had on YouTube. Well, this one is super fun because my son, Scotty McDowell, who is going to be a senior this fall at Biola, joins me as a co-host to interview Stuart and Cliff Konecki, who are two of the most recognizable apologists today. They've written a new book together called Demolishing Doubt. I had the honor of writing the forward for it. So I invite 'em on, brought my son. I was like, "Hey, what do you think about co-hosting this conversation with me?" So I posted on YouTube earlier, but the moment it was done, it was like, "We've gotta share this with the Think Biblically podcast, family." So let us know what you think, and, enjoy this conversation with Stuart and Cliff Konecki about the toughest questions people are asking today on college campuses and beyond. Stuart and Cliff Konecki are two of the most well-known evangelists and apologists today, garnering tens of millions of views online from their engagement with students on college campuses. They've written a new book called Demolishing Doubt, of which they gave me the distinct honor to write the forward. Since they're a father-son duo, I thought it'd be fun to interview them alongside my son, Scotty.

Stuart Knechtle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: This is the first duo interview we've done, so it's gonna be awesome or a shipwreck. We will let our-

Stuart Knechtle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Guests decide. Kidding aside, before we get to questions for you guys about your new book, we're gonna start with some questions that Biola students submitted for each of you and a few from my home church. Now, for viewers and listeners, I did not give them any of these questions ahead of time. I often do with my guests so they can prep, but we've got two pros who are used

Stuart Knechtle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Live Q&A, and we wanna see 'em engage with us as they do on college campuses. Stuart and Cliff Konecki, are you guys ready to roll?

Stuart Knechtle: You betcha.

Cliffe Knechtle: I'm glad we have you, Sean, you and, you and Scotty. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Oh, we're just here to ask the questions. It's all the Koneckis today, baby. [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: All right. You want me to go first?

Sean McDowell: All right. I... You know what? Go ahead. I'll go first. I'll go first. All right, Cliff. Do Mormons go to heaven?

Cliffe Knechtle: Mormons go to heaven. Do Mormons go to heaven? I do not know. Why? Every Mormon that I've met is one of the kindest, nicest persons you will ever meet. And then when I begin to ask them what they believe, they clearly have not read Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, and what they throw at me is a bunch of rather biblical language. Then when I go and study Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, I find out that they're polytheists, they're polygamists. They have an incredibly horrible view of darker-skinned people. They have an understanding that we're gonna become gods, we Mormon men, and we're gonna have our own planet. And I begin to cringe, because they believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. So if you really are committed to what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught, I would argue that you are denying the real Christ. But to be honest with you, the majority of my Mormon friends don't have the faintest idea, and when I raise those issues, they almost go into shock.

Sean McDowell: Good, bold answer. I like that. All right, Stuart, one for you. Why does God allow Satan to be on Earth?

Stuart Knechtle: I think it gets back to the free will question. If Satan obviously had power, he's a fallen angel, and had the amount of power that God gave him from the very beginning, well, then he could do whatever he wants. And his position here on this planet, that's one of the greatest questions I'll ever run into in terms of why hasn't God dealt with him yet with the lake of fire and tossing him in, and allowing us to be more free agents, not just struggling with the world and the flesh and the Devil is a challenging one enough. We've got the flesh as well as the world. But you throw the Devil in there, and as a mental health therapist, I see the Devil wreak all kinds of havoc, and that's why the great psychiatrist, Christian psychiatrist, M. Scott Peck- ... Spoke like he did in terms of the evil that you see, the Devil has to be, has to be in different forms of borderline personality disorder, in different forms of five correctional surgeries. I was counseling one woman with who was just beaten to a pulp by her husband over and over again, and the cops never got involved really. Then I have a close friend who was looking over the biographies, really the autobiographies and the journals of some school shooters, especially the one here in Connecticut. And reading those, he was reading with an atheist friend, actually, who was a news anchor, and they both came to the conclusion of how in the world can you say that this is just a mental health problem, that it's the parents raised them wrong, that it's just this type of world and flesh? No, the Devil is so clearly involved.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Stuart Knechtle: So why exactly does God give, whether it's the prince of the air or any other term you'd like that scripture talks about, the amount of freedom He does? I do not know. To borrow a a little mantra over here from this one. And yet it's so clear. It's impossible. I talk to more and more secular folks who are honest with, yes, there is evil involved, even though as atheists, we know that bringing in the term evil garners a type of religious term- ... Where you have to start asking the questions, okay, is there a good and evil, and is that immaterial?

Sean McDowell: So I think this next question kinda goes into the fact, about evil. It says, "Why are babies born with tragic health conditions that are sometimes fatal?" Cliff, what would you say to that?

Cliffe Knechtle: Babies are born into an unfair world, and one of the biggest challenges is not to get life and God mixed up. Life is unfair. God is fair. Don't get the two mixed up. When I suffer, if I clench my fist and wave it in God's face, that is misplaced anger.It's not God who sicks disease and genetic birth defects on little babies. Rather, it's the fact that they are born into an unfair, cursed, messed up world. Not the way God created it, but in Genesis 3, after reading about the good creation, we read about human rebellion against God, and that's where the train gets off the track. That's where the arrow misses the mark. That's where chaos and injustice and unfairness fill the gap. So remember, we don't live in a fair world, we live in a grotesquely unfair world. Whenever anybody raises the problem of evil and suffering, if they're an atheist or an agnostic, I think they're being intellectually dishonest.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Cliffe Knechtle: The only way you know that a stick is crooked is if you know what a straight stick is. And the only way that you know that this world is not right is if you have some type of understanding of what this world should be like. If there is no should be like, then there is nothing wrong with evil, with suffering, with happiness, with health. Because if there is no God, and if there is no ultimate right and wrong, then basically what is And if you don't happen to like what is, well, suck it up, friend. It just is. The very fact that you and I are so outraged over evil and suffering is a clear piece of evidence that some type of God exists because right and wrong, suffering, and real life are not totally relative categories. And we understand that by exercising our consciences and our minds in highly responsible ways. Ultimately, I don't know why God allowed suffering and evil. The Bible never answers that. But whenever anybody says to me, "If God's all good and God's all-powerful and evil exists, I'm sorry, you've got a contradiction there." No, you don't, 'cause you're missing point four. Yes, God is good. Yes, God is all-powerful. And yes, evil obviously exists. But point four is God can have a sufficient reason for allowing evil and not tell us. And a professor at Southern Connecticut State University was outraged and said, "No, God owes me an answer." That's the problem. God doesn't owe me nothing. God is good. He created a wonderful world. We messed it up, and now we are wreaking the havoc that comes from telling God to take a hike. But when Jesus Christ returns in power and great glory, He's gonna make all the wrongs right. Injustice will lose. Life will be affirmed ultimately by eternal life in heaven. That is the hope of the Christian faith.

Sean McDowell: Great answer. I'd say the Kenecklys are three for three so far, Scotty.

Stuart Knechtle: Three for three. I love it. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Let's, throw it back to the young guy and see if he can keep the momentum going here. All right, Stu-

Cliffe Knechtle: Like you gave a pig. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Stuart, this one is for word as it was sent in. "I overheard my 16-year-old son, who's been questioning the existence of God, ask his friend that if God really is all-knowing, why would He put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil- ... In the garden? It makes no sense." So why the knowledge of The tree of the knowledge of good and evil if God is all-powerful?

Stuart Knechtle: Yeah, so very similar to why would God, from the very get-go, allow there to be evil to begin with. And obviously, He still thinks evil, people in terms of Hitler and many others, Mao Zedong, others, He still thinks it's worth it despite all the pain, despite all the suffering, to ultimately save us because it's an incredible saving project where we will be caught up in tremendous love and these loving relationships will last forever despite the evil. So even though He knew that that tree would be in the garden, at the end of the day, He's saying, "Hey, are you guys, Adam and Eve, are you specifically going to think that it is worth it and that I have your best in mind when it comes to ultimately trusting me?" So even though He knows it's gonna happen, it's still a matter of I'm going to allow these human beings who I've created in my image to make this decision over are you going to say I am the best option or not? And remember, I think this is an interesting point on moral relativism as well. This tree of the knowledge of good and evil- ... I mean, the choosing of it, ultimately, God is saying, "There's moral obligation here. There, there's moral objectivity here." 'Cause if there's no true knowledge, well, all of a sudden when Adam and Eve break it, well, now they're determining what is right or wrong. So God, from the very get-go, is setting out moral objectivity. Are you gonna live by right and eventually, they need to pick whether He is the greatest source of all life or not. So it's tremendously freeing. I don't... I've never looked at it as God is impinging their freedom and putting them in any sort of box.

Cliffe Knechtle: Good stuff.

Sean McDowell: That's a great, that's a great answer. So this next question goes into a little bit about Pascal's wager. It says, "The fear of death could be used as an argument against Christianity, that it was created so man could be comforted and that there is no life after death." What would you tell someone who doubts that there is anything after death, Cliff? What would you say?

Cliffe Knechtle: Well, I love Pascal's wager. I think that the Frenchman was understanding that, I live in a culture where gambling and card playing is broadly accepted. And so now I'm calling you guys to think about your life. If I as a Christian am right and you as an atheist are wrong, when we die, if there is no God, I lose nothing, and you lose nothing. But if you're an atheist and I'm a Christian and we die, and there really is a God, then you lose everything, and I gain everything. So just think about it as a wager. Now, I think C.S. Lewis put it beautifully when he pointed out, "Isn't it amazing that God loves you and me so much, that He would accept us into His heaven if we had the lousy motive, 'I don't wanna go to hell. I wanna go to heaven. I don't wanna just die. I wanna go to... And live'"And C.S. Lewis' point is that shows you the depth of God's love for you, that He would accept you into His heaven even if you're motivated to trust in His Son Christ with such a lousy motive. Third point, I don't think it's a good reason to believe in Christ 'cause I simply don't wanna go to hell, I wanna go to heaven. But I do think that that reality should motivate us to study hard the issue. So the way I use Pascal's Wager is not so much believe in Jesus because if you don't, you're gonna go to hell. I use it more like, look at friend, these issues are so significant, they have such eternal consequences, that it would behoove you as a thinking human being living in Western civilization that has been profoundly influenced by the Bible to read the Gospels, to examine Christ for yourself, and then to ask yourself, does the historical evidence of the way Jesus lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead point to His trustworthiness or not? And if the evidence is Christ is a quack, then reject Him. But if the evidence is Christ is the truth, you'd be very wise to put your faith in Him. And friends, that ain't no game. That is in earnest thinking clearly through reality.

Stuart Knechtle: So what would you say to somebody who's like, "Okay, well, how do you know that Christianity got it right?" Like, there's thousands of different gods, there's thousands of different religions. What would you say to somebody who's like, "How do you know that Christianity got it right? You just happen to blee- believe in Christianity." Like, what would you say to that?

Cliffe Knechtle: Well, you simply got to read the Gospels and examine the trustworthiness of Christ, and then you have to honestly look at the options. So if you're seriously considering Islam, you better read the Quran. And if you're seriously considering Hinduism, you better read the Bhagavad Gita, The Vedas, the Upanishads. And if you're seriously considering Gata- Siddhartha Gautama Buddha, you better read the teachings of Buddha. And then you better ask yourself, what does the evidence point to? Is Siddhartha Gautama Buddha ultimately reliable? Is Muhammad ultimately reliable to be a source of information about God? Are the avatars of Hinduism ultimately reliable to tell you the truth about God and life after death? Or is Jesus Christ ultimately reliable? Guys, it's a no-brainer. Nobody lived the quality of life that Christ lived. Nobody taught the quality of ethical teachings that you read about in the Sermon on the Mount. Guys, just read Matthew five, six, and seven. Whoever wrote it, whoever said it, was an ethical genius, stinkin' genius. Watch how Christ dies. At the moment, he's in most excruciating pain and agony as he's nailed to a wooden crossbeam. Instead of cursing at his enemies, he prays, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." You've got to respect that. That is amazing moral strength. But fourthly and most importantly, his resurrection from the dead. The grave of Muhammad is filled, and I have some respect for Muhammad when he teaches one of the five pillars of Islam is give alms to the poor. Very good, Muhammad. It's exactly what Jesus taught. Be generous. I have tremendous respect for Siddhartha Gautama Buddha. I mean, the young man struggled with the problem of suffering. That's really good. What do we do in our culture? We don't struggle with the problem of suffering. We get drunk. We get sexually active and promiscuous, or we slit our wrists. That's the way we deal with it. Siddhartha Gautama Buddha was far above that. He really struggled through the problem of evil. But his conclusion, I think, was mistaken. He basically concludes the way you deal with suffering and evil is cut off your desires. Are you kidding me? Cut off your desires? No, Jesus says. Learn to distinguish between good desires and bad desires. And then when you look at Jesus Christ, when you look at his lifestyle, teachings, death, and resurrection, it's clear He is reliable in a way that none of the options are.

Sean McDowell: That's a great answer. I'm gonna throw this same question back to you, Stuart, 'cause it's somewhat multifaceted. At the heart of the question is kind of this idea that, fear of death can be used against Christianity because Christianity was invented to comfort people with life after death. So what would you say to somebody who says Christianity was kind of invented to comfort people when they don't even believe there's any life after death?

Stuart Knechtle: Yeah, I would start with Sigmund Freud. He was the one who popularized this idea.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Stuart Knechtle: And he said it's all wishful thinking. And hey, look, when I talk about emotional bias, there's the emotional bias that N.T. Wright talked about, that our buddy here at NYU talked about, Tom Nagel, who's an atheist. Many have talked about when they talk about their colleagues, this emotional bias around typically it's sex, and how they'll have to see some of the greatest PhDers who when they're honest with them, they'll say, "Yeah I'm not gonna look too deeply into the Christian worldview. That kind of scares me because I don't want it to restrain my sexual lifestyle." All right, so that's the atheistic side. Now, Sean, to your good question on the Christian worldview side is, well, is my emotional bias truly around, yeah, but it's a comforting idea to know that I'm gonna fall into the loving arms of a god for eternity or just into darkness. And the worldviews that I see now today is the whole idea of it's nothing to fear, Death is Nothing to Fear, like the title of one book.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Stuart Knechtle: I'm sorry. I don't think anybody... You know, again, back to as a mental health therapist, people either fear physical death or they fear what comes after physical death.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Stuart Knechtle: And Irvin Yalom out of California, an atheist psychiatrist, very well known, he has these atheist [laughs] psychiatry books talking about freedom and how to combat the fear of death. So I think he's honest even as an atheist. And then there's the Lion King cycle of life. Oh, let's just naturalize it. And I love that illustration of that one kid whose friend died, and he's coming back from the funeral, and he's in the backseat, and his mom is driving, and his mom's not a Christian, and she's describing, "Hey, here's why we don't need to fear death. Here's why it's not a bad thing." And she's describing The Lion King, and basically the kid just screams out, "I don't want my buddy Billy just to be fertilizer. I hate that idea."And so the idea of naturalizing, it totally falls short. So our culture, it's pretty embarrassing what it has to offer. And it gets back to, all right, Sigmund Freud, you've popularized this idea. I think Sigmund Freud's influenced our culture maybe more so than anybody else. Nietzsche is up there- ... Marx. And so Sigmund Freud, you gotta put it back on him and say, and say, "All right. Well, you supposedly didn't have this wishful thinking, and what did you do at the end of your life? Largely because you thought this life was all there is, you not only drank yourself to death, but you got cancer, and I think it ate your jaw apart completely. Then you got your jaw fixed so you could smoke a cigarette to the end of your life." And so he clearly was a nihilist, and I promise you he had some fear of death, and yet at the same time he realized, "Hey, I wanna go out smoking. I wanna go out as a heathen." And so yes, I think that's an emotional bias. We wanna see our dads again, Scotty as well as me. We got some pretty cool dads.

Scottie McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: And yet we still have to work through honestly, okay, is there truth behind this Christian worldview or not?

Scottie McDowell: That's a great answer. Yeah, I do, I do love my dad. He's a great guy. He's a great guy. This is a... [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: [laughs]

Scottie McDowell: So, there's been a lot of news, especially the Christians who are getting persecuted in Nigeria. And obviously in America- ... We don't get persecuted the same way that honestly these Christians in Nigeria are. If following Jesus is supposed to cost us something, what should that look like in a culture like America where life is comfortable? Stuart, I'm gonna throw this one back at you. What would you say?

Stuart Knechtle: You... Sorry. The Nigerians' persecution, and then you said, what is it like for comfort in America?

Scottie McDowell: Yeah.

Stuart Knechtle: What was the middle part of that?

Scottie McDowell: Yeah. Comfort in America. Like, if following Jesus is supposed to cost us something, and we see these Christians in Nigeria suffering, but I look at myself and I'm like, "I'm not suffering the way that they are. Am I really following Jesus?"

Stuart Knechtle: Yeah. That's a good question. Well, the Dr. Paul Brand, as a Christian, went over- ... To parts of Africa, and he saw how so many Christians suffered over there, and non-Christians. And he came back and saw how Christians suffered over here, and he said it was like night and day, because the Christians over in Africa understand exactly what's going on in terms of this worldview, that we will suffer, that suffering is a bad thing, and yet we can learn from suffering, and that ultimately we worship a suffering savior who has a incredible promise for us in the future. Versus here, we're tremendously fragile 'cause we really don't think out the worldview, and we don't endure the same kind of suffering as Nigerians do. So it's a great question. I was in seminary friends with the number two guy. His name is Jet Li, and he was also a street fighter at one time, but then converted, oddly enough. And he was number two guy in the underground church in China. And- ... They are not suffering quite as much as the Nigerians. Typically, it's a matter of... Yes, sometimes they'll get thrown in jail, but there's not too much capital offense where they'll lose their lives. But their churches will be taken. And so he did talk to me about how much more alive your faith becomes when persecution hits, and I think we could see this in examples through Paul and others in the New Testament. So as... It's a great question because as Christians who live in a very comfortable setting here in the West, I think we should always be putting ourselves at least in very uncomfortable positions. And right now, whether it's indoors or outdoors, we live in a, an assassination-type culture, and so we need to take risks as Christians. And right now, a lot of people I know would put us four in the white supremacist box-

Scottie McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: ... If we, if we just simply said that we're Christians. So I think that right there does add a level of concern and potential persecution. We know we're, in many ways, headed in that direction. Christian Smith out of Notre Dame recently wrote that book. I was talking to him briefly actually about how the West is secularized, but at the same time we see revival. So I think we need to put ourselves in awkward, risky positions as much as possible, but then look to the Nigerians and say, "Hey, these are incredible models for standing up for their faith." But we know all the different stories of, whether it's Chrissy or others at Columbine and other school shootings who stood up for their faith and said, "Hey, I'm a Christian. Take me out." And so when it really gets down to it, are we going to believe in, the face of tremendous potential for getting executed even? Have we worked that through? Is our devotional life strong enough to be able to take a bullet for the faith?

Scottie McDowell: That's a great answer, and you guys are both models of that, putting yourself out there, sharing the gospel-

Stuart Knechtle: Mm-hmm

Scottie McDowell: ... Taking the hits, so well said. All right, Cliff, I'm gonna send this one back to you. Again, word for word how it was sent to us. If God's will is always going to be done, what's the point in asking God for anything? How does that not make every request selfish?

Cliffe Knechtle: If I slap you in the face and say, "God made me do it," I don't think you have to have a PhD in psychology to know that I'm playing games with your head. I would agree with C.S. Lewis, that the all-powerful God chose to partially limit his power by giving me a free will, and he gave me a hand, and he gave me the hand for a purpose, to feed you, to clothe you, to benefit you. He did not give me a hand to slap you, to pull out a gun and blow you away. But he also gave me a free will, which means God limited his power by giving me a free will, which means I am responsible for what I do, which is exactly why there will be a day of judgment. The day of judgment is a statement. God has given us a free will. He holds us responsible for what we do. Use your freedom responsibly. Now, is God all-knowing? Yes, God is all-knowing. But what does that mean? Well, it's difficult, because I'm not all-knowing, and I've never met anybody who's all-knowingBut God is outside of the dimension of time. The Bible insists God is eternal, which means God lives in the eternal now, which means God sees past, present, and future at a glance. Do I understand what I just said? No, I don't. Why? Because I wear a wristwatch. I think in terms of five minutes ago, now, and five minutes from now. I don't live in an eternal now. But I've got to allow God to be bigger than my finite experience. And so yes, God does know what's going to happen tomorrow, but I would argue that does not mean God writes on a piece of paper what I'm gonna to do tomorrow, locks it in a bank, and then I have to do what's written on that piece of paper. That's fatalism, that's determinism, and I would argue free will is one of the clearest pieces of evidence that there's more to reality than matter and energy. There's gotta be some type of personal being who has a free will, and therefore gave us a free will, and we have to exercise it. I am really convinced that free will is real. Why? Because I enjoy knowledge. I enjoy learning. I enjoy trying to answer questions rationally. Well, what is all of that? That is all an exercise of free will. Every time you take an exam, you're exercising free will. You're making a distinction between truth versus falsehood. And guess what? If you don't make the right decision, you will flunk the exam. But if you make the right decisions, you'll pass and maybe even get an A. So when you and I reason with each other, when you and I have articulate discussions with each other, we're exercising free will by turning away from lies and falsehood, and by turning to truth and reality.

Sean McDowell: Good stuff.

Scottie McDowell: It's great stuff. So as you guys know, I'm a student at Biola. I'm a junior here. I'm actually playing on the basketball team, and it's a lot of fun. And one of the things that everybody at Biola here, you sign a contract saying that you're a Christian. So most people here would say that they believe in Jesus. But you know deep down, even watching people, who is actually living out their faith. So the question is, what's the clearest sign that someone thinks they're following Jesus, but actually does not have a relationship with Him? And how can I have assurance that my faith is real? Stuart, I'm gonna throw that to you.

Sean McDowell: Hm.

Stuart Knechtle: Firstly, understanding grace. That we live in a meritocracy-

Sean McDowell: Amen

Stuart Knechtle: ... For the most part, but when we understand that all religions and basically any worldview that I know, you're working your way to the top. And the Christian faith is the only worldview that says, "No, the God of the universe worked His way to you."

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Stuart Knechtle: So it's an upside down triangle really, like some theologians like to put it. So that's the first point that a lot of Christians miss. They've heard about grace a million times, and yet you talk to them and they are still saying, "Hey, I got salvation anxiety. Hey, am I grieving the Holy Spirit daily? Hey, I don't think I'm really a Christian, but then in a week from now, I feel it." Or, "I just got baptized and I know I'm a Christian now, but then three weeks from now, hey Stuart, I don't feel it anymore, so I must not be a Christian." So I think the merit one, meritocracy one, people are always trying to work to their faith. Secondly, the emotionalism too, it's all about in a therapeutic culture which we live in, it's about, "If I don't feel it, then I'm not a Christian." So it's like one 75-year-old woman said, after she was a Christian for about a year and a half, she said, "Stuart, I don't feel it anymore. I don't feel the wind at my back anymore, so I must not be a Christian." I said, "Oh, no Whoa. Let's work through this a little bit. David in the Psalms definitely didn't feel it at times, but he went back to God's promises." And she said, it's not enough for me. I need to feel it. It needs to be the sincerity." It's kind of like Islam, right? I need to really, it's all about sincerity and really gusting up enough emotion towards Allah or anything else. So sadly, she walked away from the faith. So that's the second one. The third one obviously that we see on sports teams across the country that, Scotty, I bet you're doing a great job fighting against, is so often when a leader, whether it's a quarterback-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Stuart Knechtle: ... For a big football team, or it's, or it's basketball with the captain. If the leader starts to go, usually the team follows, when it comes to living a lifestyle of promiscuity, whatever it might be. And so for me, that's the third one. How genuine are you in your faith? And you have to start again with grace. Works follow, but those works are important at the end of the day.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Stuart Knechtle: Are we holding each other accountable and encouraging each other, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer talks about in his book Life Together? That accountability is really hard, really tough. The encouragement, the flattery, the slaps on the back, that comes quite easy to me at least. And yet the accountability is really tricky. And so when we meet all these sports teams, many are doing it very well. Like I was very impressed, my goodness, by UCAL's football team, as well as University of Texas football team and some others. But then there's others that are very honest, which, and I appreciate the honesty from a lot of these guys. So those would be a handful.

Scottie McDowell: Well, one of these days we're gonna have to get you guys to Biola, and Stuart, as the young guys here, we'll be able to take these old guys two on two, and I would love to do that at some point.

Sean McDowell: [laughs] Oh.

Scottie McDowell: Would love to.

Sean McDowell: So you're gonna, instead of

Scottie McDowell: Hey, you're the old guy now. Papa's not here anymore.

Sean McDowell: Instead

Scottie McDowell: You're the old guy

Sean McDowell: ... Instead of McDowells versus Koneclis, you're gonna make the old guys guard you.

Scottie McDowell: I might, we might have to.

Sean McDowell: We've still got some tricks. [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: That's right, we do, Sean.

Sean McDowell: All right.

Stuart Knechtle: Do you still bench press more than your son, Sean? [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Oh, yeah, probably double actually.

Stuart Knechtle: Yeah. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: No, I'm kidding. That's not true.

Scottie McDowell: [laughs] That's not true. All right, Cliff, I actually get asked this question a ton. Super curious how you're gonna answer this one. Again, exact quote, "If people can be free and sinless in heaven with absolute free will, why not create humanity that way from the start?"

Cliffe Knechtle: Because in heaven when we say we are gonna be free and not sin, it's because we've seen Christ face to face. We have lived a life where we have chosen to live with Him, not separate from Him. What is heaven? The greatest thing about heaven will be Jesus Christ. The greatest thing about heaven will not be having sex with sex, 60 virgins the way the-Islam teaches. No. The greatest thing about heaven according to the Bible, according to Jesus Christ is we will see Christ, we will know him, we will have a much better connection with him. And because we've lived our life wanting to live together with him, that's why we'll be in heaven, we will not have the desire to sin. We will not be prone to sin because we will be in the presence of Christ and see him more clearly than ever before. What is hell? Hell is great- God's great complement to the reality of human freedom and the dignity of human choice. In other words, if all life long I choose to live my life together with God, then I'll spend eternity together with him, 'cause it obviously means I'll put my faith in His Son Jesus Christ 'cause I wanna live with Him and I want His forgiveness and Him to reconcile me to God. But if I choose to live my life separate from God, then God will not violate my request. I will spend eternity separate from Him. That'll be hell. So the only people who will be in heaven are those who when they lived on earth, they wanted to live with God, they wanted to obey Christ, but they had a sinful nature and they struggled with it the way, same way I do. I am a dirty, rotten sinner. No question about it. But in heaven, I will be enabled to do what I really want, which is to love Christ, to obey Him, to submit to Him.

Sean McDowell: Great answer. I love that. Now, we're gonna do three more questions, apologetic related ones, and we have questions about your life personally, your book. So Scotty, jump into number 11 if you will.

Scottie McDowell: Yeah, let's do it. So this has been one of the hottest topics right now. I I work at a youth group and I talk to students there. There's literally a, like, 14-year-old girl asked me this question, and then I lead a Live Differently group at my church, and it was a 40-year-old guy asked the exact same question. I'm like, "Okay, if they're asking the same question, it's a hot topic." Did the Jews, before Christ go to heaven, and do they go to heaven today?

Cliffe Knechtle: Well, see, that just hit my mind when Sean asked that question earlier. Or no, Scotty, maybe you have about multiple religions and even when you started with Mormonism.

Scottie McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Cliffe Knechtle: You know, we've talked, I know you've said it, without being a universalist, I won't name any names, but I know some universalists out by you guys that you know, that have brought drama into our church before actually years ago. You probably know who I'm talking about.

Scottie McDowell: Yeah.

Cliffe Knechtle: But I, you know, like are some Mormon saved? It's a legitimate question because how much knowledge have they received and what have they rejected and what have they not rejected? It comes down to it. So it's connected, I think, in many ways to this good question and it's across the board. Without becoming a universalist, I think, I think God meets us in different ways, and one of my favorite passages is Acts chapter 10, how God meets Lydia, as well as the sex slave- ... As well as the the centurion and the, and the jailer. I, in different kinds of ways, I think it's a beautiful way that He reaches people. So when it comes to the Jews, when it comes to the patriarchs, clearly the wall of fame there, Hebrews chapter 11, the patriarchs will be in heaven, and even Rahab, the Gentile prostitute, is gonna be rewarded for her great faith and she's gonna be in heaven. So yes, I do believe that the Jews certainly will be saved, and but it's still, what do they do with God? How did God speak to them and how did they receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit didn't just come in my mind. I mean, in one sense Jesus obviously left and the Holy Spirit came, but I think, I think the Holy Spirit was active in some kind of way even in the Old Testament. And so how did they receive the Holy Spirit or just God in general is the question, but we know many of them will be in heaven. Jews today, whether they believe that it's the nation of Israel they're saved by, whether they believe it's a political leader they're gonna be saved by, just like in Jesus' day, I think it's very similar. Whatever it might be, if they go back to, say, Isaiah 53 for example, is that, is that a suffering servant or is that a nation? What exactly- ... Is that? And I mean, whether it's Isaiah 53, 61, Jesus quoting on the cross, 22, it is so clear that it's a suffering savior, a servant.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Cliffe Knechtle: A personal being, not a nation. And so ultimately what do Jews do with Christ? And I, and I'm very proud of Jews for Jesus. I think there's many of them. And yet it's a tough question in terms of what are they gonna ultimately do with Him, and I think that God is gonna reach them in different ways, and I don't think it's all going to be if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. I don't think it's gonna be that cookie cutter type of way for Jews necessarily for all of them to come to know Christ. But I do believe that many will come to know Christ and many have, and yet they're gonna have to work through some tough passages and they're gonna have to work through a lot of that meritocracy of it's all works, and I have to do certain things in order to get to heaven.

Sean McDowell: Good stuff. Well, you know, as I look at these last two apologetic questions, one is about what do we do with devout, loving people of other faiths, and I think you both [laughs] addressed that.

Scottie McDowell: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And the last two are really about evil and suffering in the world, and I think we've addressed that. You guys, I think we've done about 10 or 12 questions, so let's shift to ones about your book. Some of these come from Scotty and I, and some of these also come from students. This first one, again, word for word from a student, here's how they worded it, and either of you can answer this. I'll let you pick. Why the title Demolishing Doubt? For a lot of people, the title could be a deal breaker when it comes to a book.

Cliffe Knechtle: All righty. Well, we had a great open air time at Yale University last year, and afterwards the, Christian Union staff was walking with us back to the home of theirs and, he said, "You know, I think I finally figured you out, Cliff."I said, "Really? Please tell me."

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Cliffe Knechtle: He said, "You're a, you're a trash talking," from your basketball background, "Christian apologist." And I thought that was fascinating. And so trash talking Christian apologist. And, we were encouraged to call the book Demolishing Doubt because we didn't wanna be too gentle because we definitely are out there, challenging people to seriously consider Christ. We are seriously trying to remove the smoke screens that people erect between themselves and Christ. We're seriously trying to give people as little reason as possible to reject Him and as much reason as possible to accept Him. So there's a little bit of edginess to it, and I think that's why some folks at Zondervan wanted to call it Demolishing Doubt. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: I love it. Now let me, let me follow up just for the record. About five years ago during COVID, Scott and I were battling, so much so that my wife, in basketball, was like, "Are you sure you guys are playing?" I'm like, "We're good. We're battling."

Cliffe Knechtle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: This is part of the fun. And, let's just say my son has a little bit more of a proclivity to talk and maybe trash talk. I have a little bit more proclivity to not talk and just say, "Let your game talk." Now, quickly, which one are both of you? Cliff, are you a trash talker or were you on the basketball court?

Cliffe Knechtle: I was on the basketball court at Davidson College in North Carolina for one reason. It was definitely not because I had talent. It was definitely because I would hustle. So if there was a brick wall the coach wanted someone to go through, I'd be more than willing to go through the brick wall. Not much talent, but plenty of hustle. So that, I was all about hustle.

Sean McDowell: Stuart.

Stuart Knechtle: I went to a Christian college, and I gotta be honest, I am very much so like Scotty.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: I've toned it down a little bit because I'm a pastor, and I can't let the flock see too much. But when I was at a Christian college and I graduated, I remember going to seminary, and I remember playing some pickup frequently with this Christian college's soccer team. And the soccer team, I don't know why, they're a little bit edgy. So I would talk frequently. I said nothing about their mothers. I said nothing, you know, no type of cursing. No ad hominem attacks. But I did like talking about all kinds of other stuff. And so it was really funny afterwards, you know, I had one or two soccer players come up to me and say, "How can you be a pastor talking like that?"

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: So no, I think there's a place for it on the court, as long as you're not crossing the line, right? And we, you know, Scotty and Sean, it's really funny. A couple years ago we were playing this pretty good D1 talent. He's like 6'10". And I hadn't heard the words coming out of this guy's mouth, like, ever.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: And I played basketball for a while. And, we got really hot and fortunate, and we beat his team. But there was a lot of talk going on, and for some reason, he was just after you.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: Like, totally after you. You were like 69 at the time.

Sean McDowell: Yeah. [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: And finally he threw this bow at my dad, this 6'10", you know, 200 and whatever, 30, 40-pound guy. And I just, I got so mad, and obviously I ran in there and acted like I was gonna really shove him and gave him a nice little nudge.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: But then did some smack talking. But honestly, it set up the, it set up the opportunity for me to go over and calm down and apologize a handful of times. I think by the fourth apology, he thought I was really weird. But then we became friends. And so it's interesting. A lot of pastors get a bad rap. Gordon Fee, I'm sure, Sean, you remember that name.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Stuart Knechtle: I'm gonna start outing some [audio cuts out] now.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Stuart Knechtle: They would have this bad rap for losing their cool on the basketball court at Gordon-Conwell. And so pastors need to tone it, and yet don't tone it too much. So.

Sean McDowell: [laughs] Love it. Love it. Good stuff.

Scottie McDowell: I I have a question that's just off, honestly off the top of my head. Cliff, so we actually, we play for the same coach. He's been here at Biola for, I think,

Sean McDowell: 40-plus years, yeah

Scottie McDowell: ... 47 years. And so it's honestly, it's an honor to be able to play for him. But something that he has told me was that you need three things in a, three things as a man: humility humility. I look at my basketball career and I say the Lord has used basketball to humble me time and time again. How did basketball shape who you are as a person today, as an apologist, as a dad? Talk to me about that.

Sean McDowell: Good question.

Cliffe Knechtle: Well, I love your three virtues there. I think that was Augustine's quest- answer to the question.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Cliffe Knechtle: What are the three top virtues? And Augustine said humility and humility.

Stuart Knechtle: Mm-hmm.

Cliffe Knechtle: All right, so humility is not self-degradation. Humility is not thinking I'm a loser. Humility is understanding God is the center of the universe, not me.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Cliffe Knechtle: And when I put myself at the center of the universe, that is dumb, that is stupid, and I do it all the time, unfortunately, because it's out, it's totally out of touch with reality. So basketball helped me in terms of really trying hard. As I alluded to earlier, I did not have the talent to play at Davidson, so I had to hustle harder than I've ever hustled in my life just to barely make the team. And that was very good. It toughened me up a tremendous amount. It, helped me understand the importance of work, the importance of hustle. Basketball also has helped me understand the importance of teamwork. There are certain people in the church that I wish had played team sports competitively. I think it brings a realism when it comes to toughness. Not machoism, not putting people down, but just inner strength to keep on going even when the chips are down, even when you know you don't have a very good chance of winning. You keep on going. I think it forced me to find my security in Christ. For instance, the last game before the team went out to play UCLA, in the locker room there in Charlotte, North Carolina, the coach came up to me and said, "Cliff, I'm sorry, there are not enough seats on the room for you to come with the team to UCLA." And so that was a good experience for me. That forced me to understand where my value lies, where my identity is to be. It also allowed me to go home to be with my family for Christmas, so I was grateful for that.But, the sense of identity, you know, it's phenomenal to watch guys in a competitive situation begin to fall apart in terms of acting in weird ways, in mean ways, in self-absorbed ways. And, the reality of the sinful nature comes out in those competitive situations, and I really appreciated learning that. And then, the best basketball player I ever got to play with was a guy named Bobby Jones, who played for Chapel Hill and then went on with the Philadelphia 76ers, and he was Defensive Player, All NBA, I think a couple of times at least. And I got to play on the same team with him. And to watch the guy's humility, in spite of the fact he was clearly more talented than everybody else on the court- ... Was tremendous. So I was dribbling down the court, and he was on my left, and we connected eyes. It was a fast break. And I, with my eyes, looked at the rim, and he nodded at me. So I threw the ball up at the rim. Bobby Jones, 6'9", jumps so high, grabs the ball-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Cliffe Knechtle: ... Far above the rim, and slam dunks it. Well, I didn't go walking or running back down the court to the other, to defense. I floated back down. That was such an amazing experience.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Cliffe Knechtle: But to do that with a guy who loved Christ, who was a really humble guy, really worked hard on his game, you know, to rub shoulders with those kind of people was a real privilege that I'll always be grateful for.

Sean McDowell: I love that. And just for the record, I can cite two Davidson basketball players: Cliff Konecný and Stephen Curry.

Cliffe Knechtle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: So you're in really good company in my book, man. That's just a fact. All right, so let's shift back to, this is a question from another Biola student. And I get this a lot, and I'm just gonna set it up by there's so much information today that sometimes I sense this angst among students that they can't know anything, 'cause there's always somebody smart who has another opinion. So here's the way it's worded: How should someone who is curious about Christianity go about seeking the answers with a plethora of information out there? There's almost too much- ... Information.

Stuart Knechtle: Yeah, I think, like Tim Keller says, said, freedom is ultimately at the very top of the altar that our culture worships now, and that's part of the reason why anxiety disorders are higher than they've ever been. You have too many options. Part of the reason is parents say, "I'm not going to give my kid any type of guardrails. They're gon- I want them to figure it out themselves." Part of the reason why a woman who had an eight-year-old son came to me once and said, "Stuart, I never say no to my kid. I wanna open up all kinds of freedom and opportunities and, for him, so I never say no to my eight-year-old. I always just say yes, especially if we get even into an argument." And so I think, I think our culture really misunderstands it. Like you say, I think Jesus talks frequently about how the truth will set you free, and so what are you gonna bite down on? You gotta bite down on something, and I ultimately [laughs] hope it's the truth. But postmodernism still, run rampant. A lot of people that we meet at different, especially liberal schools, will say, "What are you talking about?" even the speech going on right now, we don't really know. There's no real connection. There's no real ability to understand each other are really saying. And so everything just breaks down, and we just live in an anxious age, obviously. So if somebody's coming to, whether it's a debate or just an honest discussion, and there is such a plethora of different forms of ideas and thoughts and worldviews out there, again, I would say you've gotta do your homework. Don't overthink. Get off social media because that's just gonna cause your brain to shut down. But for me, hedonism was quite an attractive idea in college, just basic hedonism and epicureanism-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Stuart Knechtle: ... Is really what it's tied to. So I I think the malaise of ideas is largely due to social media. You just have so much information coming at you. But if you get off social media, it's a lot easier to sort out. You know, nihilism is a huge one I see on college campuses right now. I love it when I run into a happy nihilist. It, it's-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: ... It's very contradictory in nature. So sorting it out that way, if you get off social media, I really think it becomes a lot clearer, and you can do your homework.

Cliffe Knechtle: So Cliff, you you share a story in the book where you're talking about how you were on a college campus. You remember there were multiple times where you would go, and there just wouldn't be any students, and you would just be there talking with your wife. What is the most practical and effective way to evangelize today? Is it a street corner? Is it social media? Or is it just living the Christian life well? It's to use the unique personality that God has blessed you with to build bridges of friendship with people, and then to allow Christ to walk across those bridges into other people's lives. I can promise you, I did not grow up in an environment where doing open air dialogues on university campuses was the thing to do. My environment that I grew up in was the opposite of that. Speaking out like we do on college campuses was idiotic. It smacked of fanaticism. It was totally unacceptable. But when Leighton Ford, a father in the Lord to me, sat in my parents' living room and said, "Cliff, I was just at University of Arizona. I saw one of those hellfire brimstone preachers stand up and communicate Christ with his style. Why don't you go out and present both the love and the truth of Christ, not just the hellfire brimstone?" And so when he challenged me to do that, I did that 46 years ago on the beaches of Fort Lauderdale, Florida, when InterVarsity Christian Fellowship had a beach evangelism project. And I found out real quickly that students did not want to hear my sermons or sermonettes. Instead, they wanted to show me what a fool I was for believing in Jesus, so they fired hard questions. So I scrapped my outline, tried to listen and adapt. So I think the best way to do evangelism is use the unique personality that God has given you.Listen to people. When you don't know the answer to a question, don't make up an answer. Look them in the face and say, "I do not know," 'cause that in itself smashes a bunch of stereotypes, that a Christian is someone who claims to have all the answers to all the difficult questions. None of us have all the answers to all the difficult questions. And if anybody thinks they do have all the answers to all the difficult questions, watch out. They are really intellectually arrogant. So I think it's really important to use our unique personalities. I have a younger sister who was born brain damaged, and she bags groceries in a local grocery store. And she takes a little tract and walks up to people at times and says, "Hey, I can't read this. Could you read this to me?"

Sean McDowell: [laughs] Oh, wow.

Cliffe Knechtle: And she's using her unique personality to introduce people to Christ. And then I got another younger sibling, my brother Stewart, who, transplants kidneys and livers at Duke University Hospital in North Carolina. He's far more intelligent than I'll ever be, and it's phenomenal to watch God use Stewart to introduce fellow doctors, fellow research scientists- ... Patients to Christ. There's a great gap between my sister, who's at about a third-grade educational level, and my brother, who's running research on transplantation and performs liver and kidney and pancreas transplants on a regular basis, and yet God uses each one of us. So I think the bottom line is the Holy Spirit's gonna use you regardless of how smart you are, regardless of how low your IQ is. That doesn't matter. Just be humble, be loving, and he'll use you.

Sean McDowell: All right. So if you have a brother Stewart, how come your book doesn't say Demolishing Doubt, Cliff and Stewart

Cliffe Knechtle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Konecki?

Cliffe Knechtle: Well, my father-in-law also was Stewart, and he was a wonderful man,

Sean McDowell: Okay

Cliffe Knechtle: ... With a father-in-law named Stewart and a brother named Stewart, it was a no-brainer.

Sean McDowell: I love it. That's super cool. Stewart, I'm really curious how you're gonna answer this question, 'cause this is one I've thought about for probably 30 years in my own life, having a father who now is not able to do ministry the way he was. But let's just say, like your dad, confident, bold, world changer, gospel preacher, apologist, debater. And so here's the question: What was it like deciding to evangelize publicly with your dad, and now write a book with him? Was it intimidating when you began, and if so, how has it changed to today?

Stuart Knechtle: I love that. I gotta be thinking about that more often. I ran from the idea of being a pastor or evangelist, apologist, all of those kind of mixed together. I just, I just thought I would never do that. But when I went into it, largely I think the calling came from a bunch of Christian friends. They pushed me to do it. It did come very naturally. It's... I share it briefly in the book. I was driving 18 hours up to Nova Scotia, and all of a sudden, speakers and authors like Ravi Zacharias and others really impacted me. It just caught on fire, and I was never a reader.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: All of a sudden, I just started reading every day.

Sean McDowell: Huh.

Stuart Knechtle: And so I think that's kinda what wooed me and started me, and then down this road, it became very natural, more so as an evangelist. I've started at University of Texas with them. That's been our main school for 43 years, every single year for 43. And I remember, Sean, the most intimidating moment in my very first year was when the LGBTQ community at UT, about 35, 40 of them, came marching out, stood right at the West Mall steps where we were speaking and just-

Sean McDowell: Wow

Stuart Knechtle: ... Stopped there, stayed there, protested until we left. And I remember [laughs] with my tail between my legs, I'm walking back with my dad to our house and I was saying to him, "Hey, Dad, maybe we're doing the wrong thing.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: Is this the wrong approach? What's going on here?" And he put his arm around me and said, "No this is... I'm pretty sure Paul, I'm pretty sure Christ, I'm pretty sure the disciples were rejected many a time by many different groups." So that really helped me and encouraged me and and kind of emboldened me. The second story I had was with this high school friend a few years ago. Randomly walked through one of our campuses and saw us, and we chatted, and then her sister came by, and I'd never met her sister before, and she started mocking my dad- ... Having no idea that we were connected, that he was my dad. And I was kinda like, "Yeah I don't know what that guy's doing." And then all of a sudden, she looked down and she saw that I was mic'd up, and that was one of the most awkward moments I bet for her in her life.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Stuart Knechtle: And so yet again, another kind of example of, hey, you're gonna be kind of a Jesus freak if you do this. You're gonna be rejected by many of, say, your high school friends. And yet what an opportunity if it's, you know, this is your objective purpose in life, for every believer, to share their faith in any kind of way that God's called them to. What an opportunity and how exciting it is to be poked at, to be made fun of. And so that, those two stories are two of the ones I think that really- ... Got me excited. In terms of the book now, we are definitely not writers. We are definitely not authors, at least I'm not. And yet it's exciting to, I think, get it down on paper, some of these stories, and to remember them, 'cause you can't remember all of them. And, I remember going back to age three, though, at Berkeley. I ran out and grabbed my dad's leg when he was getting spat on, pies thrown on him- ... Fake guns. I remember this guy with hair down to his butt was just screaming at him, you know, three inches from his nose. And so I remember even at the age of three some of, some of these, and that emboldens me as well, I think. I still have fear out there at times, especially within the last six, seven months. There's definitely been a form of fear. And I wanna balance that, you know? I talked with Frank Turek about, you know, he wrote us right after Charlie's assassination, and he said, "Please, guys, don't go outside yet."

Cliffe Knechtle: And, you know-

Sean McDowell: Oh

Cliffe Knechtle: ... We don't want to be, don't want to be cavalier. It's okay if we die as martyrs, but we don't want to be cavalier about it, and I thought Frank was on point there. And so there's a, I think, a healthy form of fear, but we still want to remain as bold as ever.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Cliffe Knechtle: And, look, I have friends who've literally, top D1 athletes, who've cried to me over saying, "I don't have an objective purpose in life." "I think I'm living for my family, but my mom has cancer now, and so my life is falling apart." And I am... Literally, they looked me in the face and said, "We are jealous of what you have, 'cause we don't have that." And so when you start to really get down to it and realize, wow, I really do have an objective purpose given from God, and I know God exists, and I know where I'm headed, that's one of the most freeing things imaginable and something that's tremendously motivating all life long.

Sean McDowell: It's a great answer. Before I send it back to Scotty, a couple observations. Number one, well, you might say you're not authors or writers, but you are now.

Cliffe Knechtle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: You're officially... And and honestly, I agreed to the forward before I read it, but if I didn't think it was solid and well done and worth doing a forward to, it would've been a painful no. Now, I didn't think that would happen. I had minimal fear with you guys. But great stories, great content. Scotty read all the way through it. Second, I don't know if you realize this, but really good play on words in your second story. You said the girl said to you, she was saying something about your father, making fun of him, and you said she didn't know that you guys were connected. Really good play on words there, Stuart. I'll give you some love on that.

Cliffe Knechtle: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Scotty, go ahead.

Cliffe Knechtle: That's lovely. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Okay, Cliff-

Cliffe Knechtle: Sean, thank you for writing such a beautiful forward.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, thank you for that. I love that, Sean.

Cliffe Knechtle: Oh, happy to do it.

Sean McDowell: We appreciate you, Sean. Thank you.

Scottie McDowell: All right, Cliff, you've been on the college campuses for what? Is it 40 years? Do you... How long is it, actually?

Cliffe Knechtle: Easy there, brother.

Scottie McDowell: I like that.

Cliffe Knechtle: Long before you were born.

Scottie McDowell: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Scottie McDowell: Okay. Okay. Okay. [laughs] Well, my question

Cliffe Knechtle: If you're specific about how many years.

Scottie McDowell: [laughs]

Cliffe Knechtle: It's been 46, to be precise.

Scottie McDowell: 46, okay. Wow. Yeah. Just a little bit older than me. So my question is, have you seen a change of the questions or approach from skeptical college students from when you first started and then now?

Cliffe Knechtle: No, the questions are not different. The questions are just more deeply embedded. The relativism of truth, the joke that the Bible is, it's not the word of God, it's just a fairy tale. Science is preeminent. If you can't prove it scientifically, it's not true. Sex, oh, you got to be kidding me. There are guidelines for sex. What an horrible twisting of human freedom that is. Agnosticism, you can't know anything. Those have always been there, but they're more deeply entrenched in people's minds. The changes that I've seen are mainly emotional changes. When my dad was 18, he sat up in the mountains of Switzerland. My... He was a Swiss. And, he held a rifle, and he watched Hitler's Panzer divisions come straight towards Switzerland. His dad, my grandpa, was down on the front lines with his rifle, waiting for Hitler's Panzer divisions. Can you imagine being 18 years old and witnessing all of that and thinking that the Nazis were gonna storm into Switzerland? They didn't- ... Probably 'cause Mussolini stopped Hitler from doing that, 'cause his money was in Switzerland, possibly. Now, contrast that to Donald Trump wins the election, and 18, 19, 20, and 21-year-old students need to go to a crying room to get counseling 'cause Donald Trump won the election.

Scottie McDowell: [laughs]

Cliffe Knechtle: Okay, that's emotional fragility. That's 18-year-olds sitting in the mountains of Switzerland watching Hitler's Panzer divisions come straight at him versus, "Oh, no, I'm emotionally falling apart because Donald Trump won an election." So that's a profound emotional shift, and that is where I've had to grow, and that is where Stuart has been such a big help in bringing his counseling background and emotional sensitivity to students, for which I'm very grateful. So, that's been the main change, Scotty.

Sean McDowell: That's a great answer. I've got one more question for you, Cliff, if that's okay. You said 46 years ago, so around 1980, roughly, you started doing this, and I say that as a big sign of credit because we've both seen a lot of Christian leaders fall away, either doctrinally or morally. What advice would you have for Christians to stay faithful for the long haul?

Cliffe Knechtle: Hate sin and love Jesus, and hate sin more and more and more. Because if you look closely at sin, if you look closely at people's lives, if you listen closely to what they say, if you look at your own life and your own heart, you begin to realize the power of sin. You begin to think that any worldview, any religion, or any philosophy that does not take sin seriously is a fantasy. I don't care if it's bullying. I don't care if it's Ukraine and Russia. I don't care if it's North Korea. I don't care if it's Hamas, Hezbollah, Israel. I don't care if it's the divorce rate in the United States. I don't care if it's racism or sexism. I don't care if it's mauling immigrants. Sin is real, and you better face that fact, and you better face the fact that it's real in me, 'cause it is real in me. And our culture's alternative biologically is, "Oh, it's just aggression, survival of the fittest." Psychologically, it's just, "Oh, you've got repressed emotions." Sociologically, it's just, "Oh, you're locked into poverty. That's why people do mean things and bad things." Oh, give me a breakWhen you look at those options to sin, you begin to realize those options are empty, hollow, and incorrect. There's something wrong in the human heart. That's why we need to be born again. That's why we need to become new creations in Christ. That's why we need to put our faith in Christ and allow Him to be not just our Savior, but our Lord. So hating sin has always motivated me powerfully, Sean. And then the other thing that's motivated me is love for Christ. And love for Christ is not being fanatical. It's not being emotionally tilted. Love for Christ is being confronted by the depth of His love, understanding that in spite of the fact that I'm a worse sinner than I ever understood, I am more deeply loved than I ever dreamed I would be. That He would die on a cross for my sin. And when I allow that to sink into my heart and my mind, that propels my love to grow and deepen. And that, I think, really protects us from falling into some of the traps that some of our wonderful Christian leaders have fallen into.

Sean McDowell: Love it. Scotty, one more. Go ahead.

Scottie McDowell: So Stuart, this is one of the questions that I had, from the book. All throughout your book, you're giving evidence for who Jesus is, where we come from. But in every single chapter, you weave in sharing the gospel. How important is it to when you're having conversations with people who are questioning, "Does God exist? Who is Jesus?" to weave in the gospel every single time?

Cliffe Knechtle: Yeah, so that's an interesting question. Early on, that was always the number one critique. But my... I always get frustrated, 'cause I'm always like, "Dad, come on, play the William Lane Craig card. Really teach me how to debate."

Scottie McDowell: [laughs]

Cliffe Knechtle: Obviously, he's not William Lane Craig. But I've always wanted pointers from him. And just like his connection with Billy Graham and all of them in the past, they didn't do a lot of coaching of each other. It was more so, "No, you gotta find your own voice." And so for me, I always turn to my dad frequently and say, "Come on, I need more coaching." And he says, "No. You're gonna... Just continue to read, continue to pray, and just, you're gonna continue to work your own, your own voice and your own personality into things." And so for me, Scotty, in my early years, my wife and my dad, that was their number one critique. It was, "You gotta bring your arguments. You gotta bring any psychological points. Anything. You gotta bring it back to the cross at the end." And so for me in my early, say, first three, four years, I would just stick with these topics debating. But the gospel at the end, if you, if you weave it and tie it together nicely instead of going down all these different tributaries, if you weave it back together and hit the gospel hard, that really helps a person understand who Christ is and what the Good News really is. Rather than, "Hey, here comes a gotcha moment. Hey, all the Christians clap." But the atheists walk away saddened or maddened and- ... And confused. So.

Sean McDowell: That's good stuff. Fellas, we have a ton more questions we didn't even get to. We probably had 30, 35 more questions from Biola students, some from my home church. But I want people to know that in the book, almost everything we talked about is in there. You deal with the problem of evil. You have, questions about the Bible. Chapter 6 in Part 2 is, "What about other religions?" So we talked about Judaism. We talked about Mormonism. Evidence for Jesus is a whole section. Great book. I would say it's excellent for Christians to just get their questions answered, but also for non-believers as well. And the title is memorable. Demolishing Doubt. I get it. It's two words. They both start with D. But the book doesn't have... I want people to know, it has no sense of like, "You bring your questions, we're gonna demolish you." It's very gracious. You guys consistently say, as you did here on this program, "You know, we don't know the answer to that. But from our Christian faith, here's how we would make sense of it." So there's a lot of grace. There's a lot of humility woven through it. And, I hope you guys will write another one together, and at least think about it. It's well done. But before that happens, folks, make sure you pick up a copy of Demolishing Doubt. And the best way for people to follow you guys is where?

Cliffe Knechtle: Just our YouTube channel, Give Me an Answer with Stuart and Cliff Koneckly, and then our Instagram channel, Stuart_Koneckly. So they'll probably... Those two.

Sean McDowell: You guys are killing it there. Keep it up. We watch you guys all the time, rooting for you. Super proud of both of you. Keep it up. Thanks for coming on. In due time, we've gotta do something in person. So if you're watching this and you're thinking, "You know what? We want a McDowell-Koneckly combo"-

Scottie McDowell: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: ... Let us know what that would look like, and there's a decent chance we can make it happen. In the meantime, appreciate you guys. Great book. We'll do it again.

Cliffe Knechtle: Thank you, Sean and Scotty.

Scottie McDowell: Thank you guys so much.

Cliffe Knechtle: Thank you so much, both of you.

Scottie McDowell: That was fun. Appreciate you.

Scottie McDowell: [outro music]