Biola University
Most people recognize Michael Jackson’s 1983 mega-hit “Billie Jean,” but few know the human story behind the headlines. In this episode of Think Biblically, Sean sits down with Biola and Talbot graduate and educator La Nej Garrison, whose mother was a partial real-life inspiration behind the famous song.
La Nej Garrison is a dedicated family woman, editor, senior writer, and minister deeply passionate about her faith, family, and fostering meaningful conversations around religion and ethics. She holds a degree in Philosophy of Religion and Ethics from Talbot School of Theology.
Professionally, she serves as an editor for one of the largest African American publishing houses in the United States and as a senior writer for Women In Apologetics. You can read more of her work and stay connected by visiting her website at lanejgarrison.org or by following her on Instagram @la_nejg.
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] Hey, friends. Welcome back to Think Biblically. Today, Sean shares an incredible conversation with Lanez Garrison, a Biola and Talbot graduate whose mother was a partial inspiration for Michael Jackson's iconic hit song Billie Jean. It's a wild childhood story, but more importantly, it's a profound look at how God's grace can reach into the deepest brokenness and bring total redemption. Hope you enjoy this conversation.
Sean McDowell: Michael Jackson's 1983 mega hit song Billie Jean was partly named after your mom. We're gonna go into your story, but maybe you could tell us why you wouldn't let your kids listen to Billie Jean growing up.
La Nej Garrison: For me, it was not just a song. For me, it was a reminder of my entire childhood. So Billie Jean was Mom. And she'd always told us that's who she was. She'd always told us that's what the song, what he wrote about. And so hearing it was almost like reliving parts of, like, your childhood and all of the things that that song entailed, and I didn't... I wasn't even ready at the time to explain it to my kids, like why this had such a weight for me and what it meant, you know, 'cause they didn't, they didn't, they never met her, and they didn't know all of my story. They knew bits and pieces, but they really didn't understand the full picture. And so for... You know, and they're little at the time.
Sean McDowell: Of course, yeah.
La Nej Garrison: And so I didn't, I just didn't want that to be part of their childhood, and I think that's maybe what it was, is separating the childhoods.
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
La Nej Garrison: That was my
La Nej Garrison: my experience, but I don't want that to be their childhood, because it can be so overshadowing, I think. And then honestly, you know, it was a lot of fear. It was a fear of opening this up, you know, and talking about this too much, so, 'cause we always lived, like this was just something you don't talk about.
Sean McDowell: Oh, wow. Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Now we're gonna get into your story.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And Billie Jean, for some people, are going, "Wait a minute. What is this song even about?"
Sean McDowell: she was also referred to as Michael Jackson's stalker.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Which we will get to.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: I remember the first time you were sharing this with me, and I was blown away about it. There's a redemptive arc to your story that's so powerful. 'Cause I think some people are thinking, "Why are we sharing this story on an apologetics channel? Where is this going?" We will fill in some of those gaps.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: But we were sitting there this morning. It was you and your husband, Matt, who was one of my basketball teammates here- ... Years ago in the '90s at Biola. And I'm sitting there thinking, "You know what? This song is gonna come on." [laughs] There was 80 songs that were on, and I'm like, "It's just gonna come on." You probably can't escape this anywhere you go, can you?
La Nej Garrison: No, it's funny. My pastor and his wife were in Israel, and I told her, they, we had them over for dinner one night, and we kind of, I told them all of my testimony. And they were in Israel, and she'd text me. She was like, "We're in a coffee shop, and Billie Jean is playing. This is crazy." I was like, "Yeah. It's everywhere."
Sean McDowell: So not only it happened, but she felt the need to let you know-
La Nej Garrison: Yes. [laughs]
Sean McDowell: ... That it happened.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Okay, so again, this story, all I can say is the word that comes to mind is I was flabbergasted because I've known you and your husband [laughs] back in the '90s. Maybe two years ago we were sitting down, and you're sharing this with me, and I'm like, "Wait a minute. What is happening?" But before we get to it, tell us why are you sto- sharing your story now?
La Nej Garrison: Well, there, like I said, there was a fear of always kind of letting it out, but I think the biggest thing is Mom just passed away two years ago. And it was almost like a release, you know? Because we didn't want this to her negatively. She already has enough, you know, negative attention from her past, and so I never, I didn't wanna add to that or add to her own experience. And so it just, it didn't feel right. I also, you know, I have kids, and I'm doing life really. You know, doing life and doing ministry and working and traveling, and so it just, it wasn't, it didn't feel like the right time, and I really didn't feel like the release to say, "Okay." You know? 'Cause I told parts of my testimony and childhood and have told more over the years, but it just didn't feel like the right time until she passed away and kind of reconciling, like, your whole childhood when you step back and you go, "Okay, I think, I think it's time now." And so that was really the, I'd say two years ago. 'Cause I'd always thought about writing it, and I'd always wanted to share more. But that's when it was like, "Okay, I think this is time."
Sean McDowell: You felt permission to do so.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Just personally and relationally with the other people in your life.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And we talked about this a little bit. Like, once you share the story, you can't put the genie back in the bottle or the toothpaste back in the bottle. Whatever metaphor we wanna use, it's out there.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So you've thought a lot about your life, your ministry, and felt like now is the time. You wanna share the story, and not just to share the story because it's dramatic.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And it is. It it's a drama-filled, powerful story, but the redemptive arc, and you and I especially doing the MA Phil program together in the early 2000s, there's an apologetics philosophy angle to who you are and what brought you to Christ. We're gonna get to that, but let's start kind of at the beginning.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: What does the public know about your mom? Like-
La Nej Garrison: So if they were to Google her, they would say that she's a stalker, that she used to break into Michael Jackson's house, that she claimed to have kids of his, and that she sued them and sued- ... His kids. I think she sued Blanket, I wanna say-I wanna say like a billion dollars or some mil. It was-
Sean McDowell: Oh my goodness
La Nej Garrison: ... It was after Michael passed away that she sued them again. So the public knows her as someone that, you know, has been his stalker and, kind of to probably terrorized the family a little bit. Which is hard in my mind because I know her, you know, like this little person, but so that's ... So it's it's all negative. And they know her of someone who's mentally ill-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
La Nej Garrison: ... Because the things that she says and the claims that she makes are so outrageous and so, and to make it towards Michael Jackson is just, it's outrageous. ... I would say that's who people know her as. Yeah.
Sean McDowell: And, that's fair-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... That they would have that. I was reading, there's an article, I mean, just the week we're recording this, and the title was There a Real Billie Jean? Here's What We Actually Know 40 Years Later. So this is one of the most recognizable you know, rock songs of all time. I mean, everybody knows it. My kids know it, and they're, you know, two generations [laughs] removed from this song, and just last week they're talking about it. And what the way they describe ... I'll read the way they describe, then I wanna get your reaction. There's debate about whether the song Billie Jean is really about just kind of the groupies that would follow Michael Jackson. That narrative was put out there. But then in the 1991, biography, which is called The Magic and the Madness, Randy Taraborrelli, according to mor- multiple reports, said the singer allegedly began receiving multiple letters from a woman claiming that he'd fathered a child with her two years before the song was released, despite the two having never met. And then it says, "The letters kept coming and began to take a negative toll on Jackson's mental health. Things finally reached a breaking point after the fan sent a package to his home that included a picture of her and a gun with instructions to kill himself at a certain time." This is from theroot.com. "In return, she'd do the same to her and their alleged child so they could all reunite in the next lifetime together. Thankfully, the woman didn't go through with it, and Jackson later found out that she'd been sent to a psychiatric ward." Now, at the bottom of this, they're like, "We don't really know the events. We're not sure, but it makes the song compelling, which is a separate issue."
La Nej Garrison: Right.
Sean McDowell: What's your reaction when you hear this just last week? Like this just, people are not gonna stop talking about this.
La Nej Garrison: I, well, I've, I never heard that about the gun. I didn't know that she'd sent him anything in the mail or anything like that. But I know that she made these claims. ... I know that she believed these claims, and in her mind, this was the truth. Because- ... That's who Michael was to me. Like, she always told me that, "That's your dad. Michael's your dad," so I know that she believed them. So it's kind of, it, I guess it makes a little bit of sense because I knew they were always afraid of her, and so the gun thing, I think that's ... I wonder if that's connected to her. Could be. I mean, who knows? You know, when you're mentally ill and you have a false sense of reality- ... You do all types of things, and so the worst thing you can do is lie to your child. And so to me, the lying to the children is way worse than the threatening of a gun, if that makes sense.
Sean McDowell: Yeah. No, it does.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And part of this is clearly unraveling what's true, what's fiction, what's made
La Nej Garrison: Right
Sean McDowell: ... And you've got a story to tell, and we're gonna unpack some of this. So the version of your mom, and I mean, gosh, Lanez, I remember probably when I was in the '80s hearing about Michael Jackson's stalker, and it was all over the news, and it was always somebody out there. It feels very distant. And I don't remember, but probably at the time I was like, "Wow, that person's probably crazy." Didn't give it a second thought. And then all of a sudden you're sharing with me, "Oh, no, Sean, that's my mom." I like got goosebumps and was like, "Okay, wait a minute. This is a real person. This is a real story, and somehow, like, I'm connected to this." So you've talked about the public image of your mom. Maybe pull back the veil a little bit and tell us who she was to you and maybe something about her you would want people to know apart from what they read on Google or have heard maybe on YouTube or something.
La Nej Garrison: Mom struggled with her illness and with having children, and being a single woman I'm sure contributed a lot to why she made some of the decisions that she made. And I'm not exactly sure what was the catalyst, like why was Michael the one that she chose- ... To fantasize about. I do remember one time when we were in our apartment, we were living in Palatine in Illinois, where, Thriller was playing
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
La Nej Garrison: ... You know, on the TV, and she would, like, love to see me, like, sing and dance to that, you know? And so
Sean McDowell: You're eight or 10 years old, like a kid. Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
La Nej Garrison: Even young. I had to be, I was maybe like seven.
Sean McDowell: Oh, wow.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. And so she- ... Would love to have, like, that playing and, you know. And I used to grow up saying, too, "I'm gonna be a singer when I grow up." Like, that's what I wanted to be, and she loved that that's what, you know, my dreams were. And so, but she was ... Like, I know she loved us. I know she, like she loved her kids, but I also know this illness was so overshadowing- ... To her love normally for a child that that's why we had the childhood that we've had. That's why she did the things that she did, was because of the mental illness, and I knew it was a struggle. Like, I even have, I still have voice recordings from her. I still have letters from her, and- ... And at times I can hear she's lucid, where she says, "Lanez, I love you," and she'll apologize.
Sean McDowell: Wow. Oh my goodness.
La Nej Garrison: And then I have voice recordings where she's-Cussing me out and telling ... You know, "Your problems are because Michael's mad at you, and Michael's the reason. If you know, his wife better, you know, Michael would have been better to you." And so, like, I know, like, that's who she is. She struggled with that you know, those tensions. And I would say she struggled with it all the way up until the day that she died.
Sean McDowell: So
Sean McDowell: you describe growing up with a single mom.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Your biological dad, what do you know about him? When did you learn that... Like, actually, frame it this way. What do you know about your biological father? And it sounds like you really believed that Michael was your father for a while. When did you hear that? How much did you believe that? Like, help us understand that piece of the puzzle.
La Nej Garrison: So the, these are, like, multiple layered, it, like, it gets crazy.
Sean McDowell: Whatever layers you wanna get into. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: Yes. So the one layer was that Michael was my dad, and I even brought, like, letters that she wrote for me from prison. So, like, this one is, she says, "I'm at the police station by the, by the Van Nuys courtroom, due in court now." And then so she wrote me this letter and, or this postcard, and she talks about Mommy, and, you know, "We miss you and we're gonna go home soon." And home was Michael Jackson's address.
Sean McDowell: Actually put it on there.
La Nej Garrison: Yes. So some of these I didn't get until after-
Sean McDowell: When did these, when did these date from?
La Nej Garrison: So this had to be, this was-
Sean McDowell: I mean, even just roughly if you had
La Nej Garrison: Oh, I don't even know when. Oh, no, maybe she... This is October 30th, 1995. So she was still... Yeah, so I was just graduat-
Sean McDowell: So you're a student at that point.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. And so we were very protective. She never really knew where I lived. She didn't know, really anything about me because in foster care was always the danger, that she was gonna come kidnap up me and try to take me back home, and the same with my younger brother and sister. So it was always this, you know, fear, like, "Mommy can't know where we are." And so even some of these letters, after I got adopted, they kept some of these from me, but I already knew everything. Like, she had already told me all of this when we talked to her. So that was, that was the understanding of who Michael was. And I remember one time I was in a police station and I was standing there with the twins, it's my younger brother and sister, and he said, "Well, you know, little girl, where's, like, where are your parents? Where's your home? Like, who do you kind of belong to?" And I looked at him and I said, "Well, Michael Jackson's my dad." And, like, at first they like, kind of chuckled, but then they were like, "Oh."
Sean McDowell: "She believes this."
La Nej Garrison: "She believes this."
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
La Nej Garrison: So that-
Sean McDowell: Oof
La Nej Garrison: ... That had to be probably shocking for them, not knowing what do we, what do we do with these people 'cause we don't know who they are. So that was kind of an understanding of who Michael was. My birth father, I actually didn't meet until I was 19, till I was at Biola.
Sean McDowell: Oh, my goodness.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. And that is, that's the other side of my story, dealing with the Nation of Islam, because he was part of the Nation of Islam, and Mom worked for Elijah Muhammad in their offices. I know.
Sean McDowell: Keep going
La Nej Garrison: ... It gets insane. And so I actually grew up, my name was, my name was Laneige, but because we were, you know, converted to Nation of Islam, I was actually Amina Muhammad. And so it was Amina, and then my younger brother and sister were Ansara and Ayesha Muhammad. So by the time that I met him at 19, I knew, oh, this is the dad that's part of the Nation of Islam, 'cause that's when she met him. And that's who the twins' father was someone else who was in Chicago, and so, and they were part of the Nation of Islam. So we have, like, a whole separate family that has deep roots in Islam.
Sean McDowell: So I wanna circle back to that piece of Islam, 'cause this ties into some of the reasons why you're Christian, you're studying apologetics.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: But you were raised by a single mom, but you also describe foster care.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So what are some of your early memories of being with your mom, and roughly how old were you when you shifted into the foster care system?
La Nej Garrison: So I was in and out of foster care starting at three years old. And those, some of them I don't remember why, and I assume it's because she was struggling with her illness. I had an older brother who was a runaway and was abused. I believe she abused him pretty badly- ... Because his birth father also abused her. And so he was always in and out of our homes and always, you know, getting into trouble. And so that's kind of, like, that was kind of the family dynamics. What was the other part you asked me? You said-
Sean McDowell: I was asking about when, what your life was like with your mom growing ... What memories you have, and then when you entered the foster care system. But you said at three you were kinda coming in and out.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So that means you were in the foster care system, back with your mom. Like, that was kind of a process.
La Nej Garrison: It was kind of the norm to be in and out, and it wasn't until the final time where she dropped us off at that, at the, well, it's a longer story, but at that police station where I was in the foster care system permanently with the twins. And so then that was from seven years old all the way up.
Sean McDowell: At seven years old you were... Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Tell that story of how she dropped you off there and what happened.
La Nej Garrison: So we were, we left Chicago and we were on our way. She wanted to, she told us, "We're going home." And the reasons why were some of the trouble that she's gotten into in Palatine and some of the abuse that I was experiencing that the social services were now aware of, and they, I'm pretty sure they were, like, comingProbably to get us. She had already abandoned ... One time for a couple of weeks where I was taking care of the twins by myself at seven, and some of the neighbors kept stopping by. It's like, "Why, where's your mom? You know, Amina, where is she?" And I'd just say, "She's coming back, she's coming back." But after, you know, week after week, she wasn't there. And so she finally did come back and she got us and she took us on Amtrak train, I'll never forget, from Illinois to California, and we had no money. And I remember sitting on the train. I think she had something like $60. I don't even know why I remember that number. But we were sitting on the train, and the guy, the conductor-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
La Nej Garrison: ... Looked at us and he said, "Where are your tickets?" And she said, "We don't have any tickets." And he let us stay-
Sean McDowell: Oh
La Nej Garrison: ... On the train-
Sean McDowell: Amazing
La Nej Garrison: ... And ride free all the way to Los Angeles.
Sean McDowell: Wow.
La Nej Garrison: And so then that's when we went from, you know, from the Amtrak station in Los Angeles up to Encino to Michael Jackson's house, and we lived outside, like in the dirt, the four of us.
Sean McDowell: Okay, so let me make sure I'm tracking.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: You're on a train with $60, you, your mom, and-
La Nej Garrison: The twins
Sean McDowell: ... And the twins-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... Which is a brother and a sister.
La Nej Garrison: Yes.
Sean McDowell: And they are younger than you?
La Nej Garrison: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Two, they are four or five? How old were they?
La Nej Garrison: No, they were like... They, I don't, maybe two.
Sean McDowell: Oh, so they're-
La Nej Garrison: They were babies
Sean McDowell: ... Five years younger than you.
La Nej Garrison: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Okay. So you-
La Nej Garrison: They're six years younger, exactly
Sean McDowell: ... Six years younger.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So you come out to California.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: First stop, go straight to Michael Jackson's house-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And start just living out there?
La Nej Garrison: We go to his house and she proceeds to walk us in the gate.
Sean McDowell: Oh, wow.
La Nej Garrison: Because for her, we're going home. And
Sean McDowell: Wow
La Nej Garrison: ... We And I don't know any different. We have bags and I had, I had to carry one of the twins and I carried my brother 'cause my sister was a little chubbier. And we walk in the gate and then all of the guards, you know, swarm us and they knew who she was, before 'cause she'd broken in before. And so we kind of set up camp across, you know, across the, in front of his gate outside, waiting for him to let us, let us come home.
Sean McDowell: Okay, when you say set up camp, like help me picture that.
La Nej Garrison: We just, we just had, we I don't... What, what's funny is I remember sitting out there. Honestly, what I remember is like playing with snails. [laughs] Like I remember just-
Sean McDowell: Funny the things we remember, isn't it?
La Nej Garrison: Just sitting there, like they were just like little snails, and I just remember us sitting there, and the twins were just kind of sitting on the ground, like on a blanket, and we were just waiting. And Mom kept trying to go to the gate, kept trying to talk to someone, and we just waited. And then we would get hungry and we would go to a restaurant and she would order, and we wouldn't have enough money. And I think they would feel sorry for us, you know, to see this family and this lady with these kids.
Sean McDowell: Oh my goodness.
La Nej Garrison: And people would, they would feed us.
Sean McDowell: Wow.
La Nej Garrison: And sometimes we'd be in the booths for hours and hours just sitting there. And I know she was trying to strategize, like trying to figure out what to do. So that was, that was a few weeks of that, of back and forth. Randomly, I think one time we went to a hotel. We didn't have any money. They kicked us back out. We went back to, you know, sitting in front of Michael's house. And there were times, it's funny, there were times where the gate would open and someone would come out and they would give us money. And I, if my memory serves correctly- ... I do remember Michael's mom came out one time and gave money. And because remember, he's Michael Jackson, so we weren't even the only ones out there.
Sean McDowell: Oh, that makes sense. I didn't even think about that.
La Nej Garrison: Yeah, so there were like other people, you know, trying to get a glimpse, trying to take a picture,
Sean McDowell: Like dozens of people just in and out and crowds-
La Nej Garrison: Just, yeah, like-
Sean McDowell: ... And like nonstop flow of
La Nej Garrison: Just, yeah. Just randomly people around. Some of the people, you know, knew her. And so yeah, every now and again the gate would open and I'd I remember one time that I do believe his mom gave us money, and one of his sisters, but I don't remember which one. All I remember thinking is she was so pretty. Like I just don't remember which sister it was. But I do have this odd memory of someone driving out dressed up funny, like almost like a clown, weird thing, and everyone ran. Like Mom ran, and they knew it was Michael. Because he used to dress up. And now, you know, all of this stuff doesn't click until you get older and you realize, oh, that was that person that was dressed up like that. Because he wanted to be able to go around town and drive himself, but if they recognized him, And so I do remember that one time, like Mom ran to the car and I don't know what they talked about and it was brief.
Sean McDowell: So if you're seven, I'm guessing we're about the same age-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... Roughly. So this is probably '82, '83.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Which is probably the year that the song Billie Jean came out as a part of Thriller, would've been '83.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So that's the time you were out there for probably two weeks, as best you can tell.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Just kinda basically living on the streets.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Getting food from whoever will pay for you, and it sounds like there were a few angels that just could tell, [laughs] here's a hurting, needing family. And even Michael Jackson's family came out and sometimes specifically gave money. Probably just felt bad and wanted to help on some level.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Okay. So did that for two weeks, and at this point, you truly believe he's your dad.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: That's what you had been told and at seven, of course, you believe what's told to you. So you're probably having some-
La Nej Garrison: Maybe about seven or eight.
Sean McDowell: Seven or eight.
La Nej Garrison: Yeah. Yes
Sean McDowell: Okay. So you have some anticipation of like, eventually we're going into this beautiful mansion. I mean, your hopes were high.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: What happened at the end of that two weeks?
La Nej Garrison: So it was one night we were... She hailed a cab down, and we'd actually gotten lice really bad. And so that was a whole experience. And so she hailed this cab down, and we were in the cab, and it was late at night, and the cab got a flat tire. And she asked the cab driver, "Can we sleep in the cab?" And he said, "Yes." And so he pulled over, and he let the four of us sleep in the back of his cab, and he slept in the front seat. And it was early in the morning, and she tapped me and said, "I'm gonna go make a phone call." And I said, "Okay," sleepily, and then, you know, fell back asleep. And it was about a hour something later, the cab driver woke me up, and he was like, "Little girl, where's your mom?" And I said, "She went to make a call." He was like, "That was a long time ago. Where is she?"
Sean McDowell: My goodness.
La Nej Garrison: And I said, "I don't know." And that was the last time that we saw her outside of supervised visits or... But that was the catalyst for us to be permanent permanently placed in foster care. And it was a few years after that where Illinois severed hers rights, her parental rights- ... Through the court system.
Sean McDowell: So this is how you ended up in the police station. The next step is the cab driver's like, "You don't have anybody caring for you."
La Nej Garrison: And then-
Sean McDowell: Police station process, get into a family. So from seven through... You mentioned being adopted. What was that process?
La Nej Garrison: So that was after a lot of foster homes, and a lot that weren't necessarily good- ... And family. And I'm sure, like, thinking back, like, even my family that wasn't able to keep me, you know, it's difficult. You know, kids have a lot of baggage, and and my baggage also came with an woman that you never knew if she was gonna show up at your house, and that was gonna harass you to try to get her daughter back. And so it was hard, I'm sure, for family to keep me. But it was the last foster home that was just... It was very abusive and- ... Could have potentially got really bad, where I called an aunt and I said, "You know, this is, this is bad."
Sean McDowell: How old were you at this point?
La Nej Garrison: 12.
Sean McDowell: You were 12.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Were the twins with you, or it was just-
La Nej Garrison: No. So we'd been separated, which- ... I love that they don't separate siblings now. But we'd been separated, and they were taken in by another aunt and uncle, and they were raised in Georgia. But Lavon fought them as well, trying to get, you know, parental rights back, and at one point she did, and she was able to take them away, and then they had to fight to get them back. And so that was kind of our, that was our childhood, was in and out, and not just living in the system, fighting her not to continue to do more harm and...
Sean McDowell: So seven years old, abandoned in a taxi, going in the foster care system-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... Separated from your siblings.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: At 12, you said the abuse got so bad you called an aunt. What happened when you were 12?
La Nej Garrison: So the last foster home was,
La Nej Garrison: by a lady, and her, and she had two children, and I believe her boyfriend that was living at the house at the time. And I actually had just found some of the letters that, my aunt wrote to the social worker, Joyce Dyson. I'll never forget.
Sean McDowell: You remember.
La Nej Garrison: Yes, our social worker for years and years. And she wrote Joyce to say, "I need to get my niece out. She's telling me odd things that are happening at the home," and things that sound like there's gonna be some physical abuse that's gonna start happening. And she was really concerned about the sexual abuse that could occur in the home. And, you know, the foster mother was incredibly mean. I shared a story at the Stand to Reason conference about, one night I was having dinner, and she made, like, this fried fish. And, you know, kids, fried fish, that sounds amazing. And as a kid, you know, you fill your plate up and you eat it, and your eyes are bigger than your stomach, so you think you can eat more. And so I put more fish on my plate, and then I couldn't finish it, and I said, "Oh," you know, "I'm full. I can't eat anymore." And she said, "You will finish it." And so I sat there, and the fish sat on the plate, and it gets cold and soggy, and I sat there. And she was yelling and cussing and pacing-
Sean McDowell: My goodness
La Nej Garrison: ... Back and forth. And she came and sat in front of me, and she was like, "You will eat it." And it probably had to be an hour, two hours, if not... And I said, "I'm not eating it." And I just sat there, and then she began to force-feed the fish, and I began to gag and throw up.
Sean McDowell: Goodness.
La Nej Garrison: And then she began to force-feed, to throw up. And then of you know, what happens is you begin to throw up even more. And that was kind of the final straw for me. I was like, "I'm-"
Sean McDowell: For sure. Yeah
La Nej Garrison: ... I'm I'm all done with this home. And-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
La Nej Garrison: ... And so I did. I called my aunt, and I didn't tell her. I told her that this was bad, and I had been telling her some of, you know, the things that were going on, but they only wanted me to have phone calls with my family twice a month, and my aunt was trying to get, you know, twice a week, and they were really fighting back for me to have any communication. And so I decided in my head, and I didn't tell my aunt this at the time, but I decided in my head after I called her, if she didn't come in two weeks, I was gonna run away on the streets- ... Of New York. And-So she was fighting, and what's amazing is when I hear what she was experiencing on the other end of how the Lord was working. And that was one of the big things that I shared was oftentimes we are in these situations, and we don't see where are you, God, in the midst of this, you know? 'Cause I could seem like this forgotten child, this random corner of New York. No one cares about you anymore. And it could feel like the world is against you. But then when you see the Lord's perspective, how He was moving pieces on the other end from New York to California, how He was orchestrating events so that I could be rescued, and that was the other part of the story showing how she was working. My aunt was working to get classes, you know, 'cause she never, wasn't married. Didn't have children. But they said, "If you want her, you have to take foster care classes-
Sean McDowell: Oh my goodness
La Nej Garrison: ... And all of this to, you know, prepare your... And so she was, like, speeding through-
Sean McDowell: She did it all
La Nej Garrison: ... Like, trying to get all of these things done and trying to make sure.
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
La Nej Garrison: And then it was at the very end of a class, and it was with Dr. Makungu Akinyela, who was, at some... Like, I can't remember what-
Sean McDowell: That's an easy one to remember [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: Listen, I don't remember what I wore yesterday. But he was one of the ones who was really intricate in helping her, like, finish the classes and get all the training. And it was at the very end, I believe the social worker was coming something like that Monday, and she found out when you bring a child into your home, you, they have to have, like, their own bed, own bedroom and own bath. And she panicked because she lived in a studio on Barham in Oakwood Apartments. And she was like, "I don't have a bed for her." You know, she had, like, the little pullout beds. And I believe she went to her final, you know, meeting with Makungu and, you know, finished the training, and they said, "Let's pray," you know, "We have to pray." And she came back to her house, and her house was flooded.
Sean McDowell: Oh my goodness.
La Nej Garrison: So the entire... So she was on the bottom floor, apartment 101. The entire building flooded. The pipes broke, and her apartment is covered in feces and-
Sean McDowell: Ugh
La Nej Garrison: ... She has the pictures of she's just walking in the midst of this, and she's trying to pick up things. And she says all she could say was Romans, "All things work together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. All things work together." And she's picking up things, and she, the management comes, and they're so apologetic. You know, "We're so... Like, this should never happen." And they said, we're gonna move you. We're gonna get you a different apartment." And sure enough, they move her upstairs to apartment 201. Well, the second floor were two bedroom, two bath apartments.
Sean McDowell: Amazing
La Nej Garrison: ... Fully furnished.
Sean McDowell: Amazing.
La Nej Garrison: And she said she had just enough time. She went to the store and she bought, I think, a Mickey Mouse poster. She bought, a little white teddy bear, which I still have to this day, to try to do little things to make it, you know. And the social worker came that Monday morning, and she kept ringing 101, and she said, "Oh, no, it's apartment 201." And the social worker came in, and she was like, "Oh, this is great."
Sean McDowell: You're good to go [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: "This is perfect. Yes."
Sean McDowell: [laughs] Wow.
La Nej Garrison: And it was within that, like, all of this happened-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
La Nej Garrison: ... Within a two-week timeframe. And so
Sean McDowell: Your aunt, is this your mom's sister?
La Nej Garrison: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So you're 12, you move in with your aunt.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Lived there for how long?
La Nej Garrison: Oh, we lived in Barham maybe for about, I wanna say maybe about a year, maybe about a year or so. We moved because we didn't, they didn't, she didn't want me to be a part of, the North Hollywood, school district.
Sean McDowell: Oh, okay.
La Nej Garrison: And so that, like, Barham was kinda, like, right on the border so that you would have to go to school in Hollywood.
Sean McDowell: So she's looking out for you, again, moving.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Is she the one who adopted you?
La Nej Garrison: She is.
Sean McDowell: Okay, you're aunted.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Okay. So from 12 when you move in, adopted by your aunt, who sounds like an angel, by the way.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: How much was your mom a part of it? Did you see her? Did you interact with her, like, through, say, high school?
La Nej Garrison: It was more sporadic at that point. She was writing me maybe some letters every now and then. We tried to see her, so it was really when I got older, a little bit older in high school that we would begin to go see her, and see... Like, sometimes we'd go see her in the mental institutions. But as she got older, the fears, the paranoia became really evident, and so she was scared of us a lot of times. She was scared of everyone. And so she really began to, she isolated herself a lot, a lot. And so it was during those times, which is sad but her paranoia actually kept her safe, ... Because she wind up usually staying in one place, so we kind of knew where she was. So she wasn't as,
La Nej Garrison: kind of, I wanna say active in stalking. She it was kind of in and out at that point.
Sean McDowell: When you say stalking, you, Michael Jackson?
La Nej Garrison: Michael Jackson.
Sean McDowell: So this did continue even after when you were seven-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And didn't see her anymore.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: That continued for a while, okay.
La Nej Garrison: It did. I was at Biola, and my friend Amy said, she was like, "Hey, I need to talk to you." I was like, "What's up?" She was like, "Did you see TMZ?" I'm like, "No, what's on TMZ?" She's like, "Your mom's on TMZ." I was like, "Mom's on TMZ. Okay." She's like, "Do you wanna see it?" I was like, "No."But okay. And I don't know if it was a new one. I don't know how she found out about it, but so it was, she was in and out of always institutionalized, trying to get stable, and then kind of the urge to try to go back. But as she got older, it just physically was too much and, yeah.
Sean McDowell: So when did you find out and discover that Michael Jackson was not your dad? Who broke that to you? What was your response? Tell us that story, if you will.
La Nej Garrison: You know, I don't think everyone, anyone ever told me.
Sean McDowell: Oh.
La Nej Garrison: I think, I don't, I, like, there is not one conversation where anyone ever said- ... "Do you know he's not?" Because I didn't know, no one knew who my dad was. We did have people... I do remember people going, "Is it possible?"
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: And I'm like, "No, I don't think so."
La Nej Garrison: and I think because she was so convincing, 'cause she was a court reporter, and ... Her dates, I mean- ... She kept meticulous records, and her story never, ever changed. We would go to mental institutions-
Sean McDowell: Wow
La Nej Garrison: ... And we would sit down with the doctors, and I will never forget, we were outside, and all of us, she was sitting there with us, and the doctor, psychiatrist leaned over and they, and she said, "Is it possible that this is true?"
Sean McDowell: The psychiatrist said that?
La Nej Garrison: The psych-
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: And we were like, "Okay, how do
Sean McDowell: Deep breath. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: ... No, it's not true. No, this is..." And she was like, "Are you sure?" Because she, like, everything is, like, matching up. So that was hard. It was hard for people because... And then she was so pretty, like, she didn't have the picture of what we picture as mental illness.
Sean McDowell: Or a stalker, I guess, if you frame it that way.
La Nej Garrison: Right.
Sean McDowell: Right. Yeah.
La Nej Garrison: So, like, we would visit the hospitals, and I would always say it'd have been so much easier if, and this sounds awful, but for us and her children, it would've been easier if she was, like, the drooling, the, like, all of these kind of things. Well, no, you walk in there, she's helping the nurses station, her hair is fabulous, and she's looking at me going, "Are you eating too much? You need to cut down. Are you dieting?"
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
La Nej Garrison: "Are you taking care of..." Like, she, her skin was meticulous, and so she didn't have that, like, outward thing that would say, you know, she's mentally ill. And she's articulate. And she's... And so it was difficult for people, which is why they allowed her so many court cases. That's-
Sean McDowell: She was even convincing some people there might be something to this. So you don't remember how old you were. You just kinda pieced it together and was like, "Oh, he's not my dad. Who is my dad?" Like, how did that affect your thinking? 'Cause you met him at 19, you said. So, like, you're going through high school, junior high. When do you roughly think you kinda figured this out, and then what did that make you think about in terms of your biological dad?
La Nej Garrison: I think I figured it out in the foster care. Knowing that he was someone so famous and
La Nej Garrison: knowing... And I knew who the twins' fathers was. I met him in Chicago, so I knew that wasn't their father. So they always knew that that wasn't their father. And
Sean McDowell: Okay, so sorry. By the way, in the song, it's referring to one of the twins.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Is that right? So it says, "Billie Jean is not my lover. She's just a girl who claims that I am the one. But the kid is not my son."
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: "She says I'm the one, but the kid is not my son." If this really is Billie Jean referring to your mom, this would be your younger brother, and you knew who the biological father was, so just kind of piecing these things together is like, "Wait a minute, this doesn't add up."
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Is that right?
La Nej Garrison: Yes. And so she, and so, but here's what's weird about that song, is sometimes she would tell us different. Sometimes it was the twins' dad, sometimes it was my dad. And so for me, she, the kid is not my son. And she used to say, 'cause you would ask her, like, it says, "Billie Jean is not my lover," and she would say, "Just like he says it's his son, she's talking about your daughter. Just like he says it's not my lover, it's because I am his lover." She was like, "That's the genius behind his play on words."
Sean McDowell: So she's, like, crafty and smart and had a way of being-
La Nej Garrison: She-
Sean McDowell: ... Persuasive.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. She kind of thought through it all. But at other times, I think she gave different interviews, and it was one twin and not the other twin. It was, it was all kinds
Sean McDowell: So that piece of the story maybe changed a little bit.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: But the dates and other things added up.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: When you talked about your aunt, it's the first time you started talking about the Lord.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: It's the first thing you said, when the flood happened, she's just repeating Romans 8.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Was she one of the key people in terms of your faith journey? And how did she become a Christian, like, you know, in terms of, like, your mom? Did she have any faith background? So maybe start with kind of, like, her journey and then how that affected you.
La Nej Garrison: So, my grandfather was a minister in New York-
Sean McDowell: Okay, interesting
La Nej Garrison: ... And had a storefront church. Yes.
Sean McDowell: Amazing.
La Nej Garrison: And so they'd been raised in the church and, you know, taught God's word. But my grandmother struggled with mental illness, which affected their marriage. And so they grew up knowing, you know, the truth about who the Lord was and, had a step-grandmother, you know, that brought them in. So they'd grown up in a solid Christian home and kind of went their different ways and had their different experiences kind of struggling with the Lord.My, my mom, I say mom and mom. Sounds like I have two moms, but- ... My biological mom went more the Islam route and, you know, struggled with mental illness. My adopted mom did not have that same, you know, struggle, but went to more, you know, the beauty industry and all of that, and that was kind of her journey of getting back to the Lord. And so she was a big catalyst, the, one of the first ones that really talked to me about who Jesus was. Even as I was in and out of foster care, I'd be in and out of foster care from Chicago to New York to Los Angeles, and whenever I was in a stint in Los Angeles, there was a time where she brought me in. And for as long as she had me, she was determined, "Minister the gospel, minister the gospel." And I was in, she put me in a little Christian school in South Central called Marie Faigan. And it was in that school that she was just hoping, and I was in third grade, you
Sean McDowell: Remember it, wow
La Nej Garrison: ... Talking to me about Jesus. So yeah, so it was during that time, you know, hearing about Jesus and I was very bold, which is probably the same.
Sean McDowell: Doesn't surprise me, but keep going. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: But bold about who I was and about my faith in Islam at the Christian school. And I had no problem, 'cause I was Amina Muhammad, and I let all the other Christians know, 'cause especially that's what you're taught in Islam. And so there was... And I was even taught at third grade how to question the truth that Christians believe.
Sean McDowell: Third grade.
La Nej Garrison: And so, like, she would talk to me on the rides to school about Christianity, and the first question that stumped her, maybe because she didn't know how to explain it to a third grader, was, "How can a man be God?" And she said to herself, "I have to get the truth into her. I'm just gonna sing praise and worship songs." So that's what she did. We sang praise and worship songs, and it was at that school where one day it was, like, a cloudy day and they said, Amina, Jesus is coming back and you're gonna get left."
Sean McDowell: [laughs] Oh my goodness. Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Truth.
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: And I went home and I said, "I don't wanna get left behind. If Jesus comes back, am I gonna be left?" And she said, "If you don't believe that He's your savior, you will get left." And we prayed, and I accepted the Lord, but that didn't end-
Sean McDowell: Okay, so this is third grade.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: This is with your biological mom.
La Nej Garrison: No, this
Sean McDowell: I'm sorry
La Nej Garrison: ... With my aunt.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
La Nej Garrison: That's
Sean McDowell: So you're with your aunt now.
La Nej Garrison: Just in a small stint.
Sean McDowell: Okay, 'cause that started-
La Nej Garrison: Yes.
Sean McDowell: Okay. Got it. Wait, so hold on. Wait a minute. You moved in with her when you were
La Nej Garrison: But this was just a stint
Sean McDowell: ... But you visited her at times. Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Yes, like in and out of foster care.
Sean McDowell: Got it.
La Nej Garrison: Sometimes Mom would come, you know, they would fight the system. She would have me back for a minute, and then she would leave me, and then they, social workers would find out-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
La Nej Garrison: ... And then I'd have to go back to... So it was, it was all of this-
Sean McDowell: That makes sense
La Nej Garrison: ... Back and forth.
Sean McDowell: So you were in third grade-
La Nej Garrison: For years. Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And prayed the prayer, and did it stick? Like, and you believed it and that was really the beginning-
La Nej Garrison: Oh
Sean McDowell: ... Of your journey?
La Nej Garrison: I do. Like, I remember the conviction. And I remember that, like, that settling with the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. Like, I, it was such a peace that I had, that I never had that peace with Islam and I never had that peace with Muhammad. And so it was not, it was not a faith that I ever questioned after that.
Sean McDowell: So I mean, you're in third grade.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Even that, when your mom had left and you're going through foster care, going through this abuse, you just still had this sense of, like, "Jesus is with me. Things are gonna work out. He's coming back." Like, that was a underlying theme and thread of your life. Is that accurate?
La Nej Garrison: I think, I don't know if I had Jesus... I knew Jesus was with me. I don't know if I always felt like it was gonna work out.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
La Nej Garrison: When I was in one of, the homes with my cousins- ... There was a nun that was there, and this was one of the foster home, it was like a family foster home. And I remember craying, praying and asking her and, crying, sorry, praying, crying and asking, like, "Why? Why is this happening to me? Why don't I have my brother and sister? Why don't I have a mom and a dad? Why why?" And she told me, she was like, "God loves you." She was like, "I don't know why. All I know is that God loves you and He has a plan."
La Nej Garrison: and that was kind of the, like, I could almost get teary now. That was, that was like, "Okay," like, "God has a plan." But it's not like it got better after that- ... Because it was after that that went to even the worst foster home. So that that was hard. It was hard years trying to figure out
La Nej Garrison: not just who you are, but God, like, what? Like, where am I? Like, can I just have a little bit of normalcy? And it took a long time.
Sean McDowell: Oh my goodness.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... I can only imagine. Did you start at Biola in '95?
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Okay,
La Nej Garrison: Graduated 1994, so '94. Yikes. We're not saying years.
Sean McDowell: Graduated, well, I graduated high school in '94 as well.
La Nej Garrison: Me too.
Sean McDowell: But started fall '94.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So how, like how and why did you come to Biola?
La Nej Garrison: So Mom, my aunt, was a professor.
Sean McDowell: At Biola?
La Nej Garrison: At Biola.
Sean McDowell: Oh my goodness, I did not know that. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: Yes.
Sean McDowell: In what?
La Nej Garrison: She taught in Christian education.
Sean McDowell: Wow.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. And so she gave me a choice to go to either a Christian high school or Christian college, and I chose Christian college.
Sean McDowell: Good choice.
La Nej Garrison: And so when she started working at Biola, I don't even think I didn't apply to any other college. It was like, "We gotta get in here." And so, yep, that was how the Lord-
Sean McDowell: Amazing
La Nej Garrison: ... Brought me there
Sean McDowell: Okay. So that's incredible.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And it was that same year that you met your husband. We were talking before. Teammate of mine in the audience, shout out Matt.
La Nej Garrison: [laughs]
Sean McDowell: Okay, so fill in '95 is the same year you start and you meet your dad.
La Nej Garrison: So it was about, I think that was the... So it was at '94 to '95. I believe it was in 1995 when we... I don't remember if it was the summer of '95, but I, but I was, I was on campus. I'm gonna look at some of my journals. But I was on campus, and he contacted someone in our family because our, you know, the Powless name in New York, it was not like this was ever hard to find. And he said, "Hey, I heard she's really cute. I'd love to meet her."
Sean McDowell: Are you serious?
La Nej Garrison: So I had some feelings about that. [laughs]
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
La Nej Garrison: I was pretty angry. I was-
Sean McDowell: Oh, my goodness
La Nej Garrison: ... I was pretty-
Sean McDowell: For a lot of reasons.
La Nej Garrison: Yes. And I told him. I wrote him a very long letter.
Sean McDowell: Before you met him?
La Nej Garrison: So I met him first-
Sean McDowell: Okay
La Nej Garrison: ... Because he really wanted to meet, and so my parents and I, we went to Arizona to meet him. And then found out I had all of these brothers that are all Muslim and-
Sean McDowell: Oh, my goodness
La Nej Garrison: ... Part of the Nation.
Sean McDowell: These are all half brothers.
La Nej Garrison: Yes.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. And that was, that was interesting, especially the one brother. We look so much alike, which- ... That was very, it was odd, to know that you had this connection,
Sean McDowell: You didn't even know these people exist-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-mm
Sean McDowell: ... And all of a sudden you meet somebody who's roughly your age that looks like you. I can't even grasp how jarring [laughs] that would be. I have no context.
La Nej Garrison: It was, it was interesting. But then also, rem- meeting all of the other women that were around that knew me, and so when they saw me, they all remember all of these, you know, women are part of the Nation. They were like, "Amina, we missed you. Amina." I was like, "My name's Laneige. Hi, nice to meet you. I'm Laneige." [laughs] "I'm not Amina. My name's Laneige."
Sean McDowell: Really quick, and when did you choose the name Laneige, to go by that instead of Amina?
La Nej Garrison: I think after I got adopted. Well, 'cause in foster care they kept going back and forth because I was born Laneige.
Sean McDowell: Oh, you were, okay.
La Nej Garrison: And then she changed it to Amina Muhammad, and then we went back. I mean it, we went back to Laneige and then, you know, the different last names. But Laneige was, that was kind of the one that was the one that I associated maybe myself with-
Sean McDowell: That
La Nej Garrison: ... The most
Sean McDowell: ... That's fair.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, that that makes sense.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Keep going. You're meeting your dad in Arizona. When you said your parents, now is your aunt- ... Married?
La Nej Garrison: She did.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
La Nej Garrison: So after she, got me, she wanted to adopt me, but she'd always prayed that I would have a father 'cause my grandpa was so great. And so she was like, "I don't wanna raise this girl without a father." And Ann sent, Ann sent my dad,
Sean McDowell: And you called him Dad
La Nej Garrison: ... They got married.
Sean McDowell: He's been like a father to you?
La Nej Garrison: I called him Dad even before they got married. Yes. We are like peas in a pod. Yes.
Sean McDowell: Wow.
La Nej Garrison: Yes.
Sean McDowell: Amazing.
La Nej Garrison: And so they are the ones that took me to Arizona, and we met them. We met my dad and my birth father and
La Nej Garrison: the brothers, and it was very odd. He was a little heavier set, so I was like, "Oh, that's where the fat genes come from, so thanks."
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: So yeah, so that was, that was, that was odd. But it was when I got back that, like the anger set
Sean McDowell: Yeah
La Nej Garrison: ... After I saw him. And the, "All we want you to be a part of the fa-" All of this now, and I just, I was like, "Where have you been?" Like, "You have no idea the life that I lived, and you've been here the whole time, and you left Mom, and you left me, and now you want a part of my life?" And I was dating Garrison at the time, and we were talking, you know, marriage eventually, "And now you're saying ludicrous things like you wanna walk me down the aisle. Are you- And that is not a privilege that you've earned. And sorry, but donating sperm does not give you the right."
Sean McDowell: Appreciate.
La Nej Garrison: "You are not my father. You know, my father has been there. He's loved me. He's cared for me. He's spoken life into me. You know, that's my dad, and that is the only dad that will ever be a part of that wedding day, and that ceremony." But then I did, and that was really the hard part for my parents, was I described things that they never knew that I experienced in foster care, but I wanted him to know. So that was really-
Sean McDowell: I can understand why
La Nej Garrison: ... The first time they heard some of the things and about some of the hard abuse that happened. So that was a little hard for them. And then we kinda didn't talk about it [laughs] again after that.
Sean McDowell: Did you ever have a thought of becoming a Muslim, or there was never even any attraction to that, even though you have all these family members that were? Was that ever even like, maybe," or just no?
La Nej Garrison: I... Maybe not an, not an attraction. I think I wanted, I wanted to know what is it that you believe, and why do you believe this? Because if this is who Jesus is, and who is Jesus to you, and why do you believe that Muhammad is his prophet and that Jesus is just a prophet and that Jesus is not God, and then how does that reconcile us between God and man, and how do you And so there were, like, these questions.
Sean McDowell: You had those conversations with your dad and your family, like-
La Nej Garrison: I asked them but they didn't- ... There wasn't really... They didn't really have these answers. That wasn't something they wanted to talk about. They just wanted to... They wanted me to come back. They wanted me to come back, to the Nation, and I was like, "They're absolutely not." Like, that was not even, that wasn't even a thought that that... Because I knew it wasn't true. And
La Nej Garrison: probably has been,
La Nej Garrison: like, this desire to know truth and to understand what I believe and why I believe it has always been a part of me, and I think it really stems, you know, from Mom and struggling with who Billie is and is Billie is not the truth about who you are, but yet this is the lie that has carried your whole life. And when I, it's like especially as I was starting to write this, I want to live truthfully because the lies that you carry with you can affect your destiny and eternity. And yes, she struggled with mental illness, yes, we have all of these other things, but this was the lie that impacted my life for so long and influenced so many things, and I want to know the truth, and I want to understand the truth, and I want to communicate the truth always. And so I think that was kind of, like, as I've come full circle with this and trying to understand who she is, why I've waited, you know- ... For years to share it, and Lord, what do you, what is the story that you want to tell behind this? Because it can all be sensational. You can tell all of this stuff and-
Sean McDowell: Oh, yeah
La Nej Garrison: ... All of these cra- but it means nothing if it's not connected to eternity, 'cause it's just a story. Like, everyone has stories. I've met kids in foster care. Everyone's got something.
Sean McDowell: Your story's pretty interesting, LaNea.
La Nej Garrison: [laughs]
Sean McDowell: It's just, I mean, I'm just gonna say. But keep going. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: But I that was the thing. I didn't want it to be just a story-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
La Nej Garrison: ... If it's not connected, and it took a while. I think it took going, you know, getting my master's, understanding, you know, philosophy and worldview, and understanding these deeper concept helped me fill holes into my story to where I was like, "This is how you want me to communicate this," because this is about winning people and tearing down arguments. And this, if God used this to let's tear down arguments for the kingdom-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
La Nej Garrison: ... Like, let's go to battle, and let, like, we can... And if this story does it, praise the Lord. Like, that's what, that's what it's for.
Sean McDowell: So your husband was one of the best basketball players I ever played with, but I'm gonna go on the record and say you're definitely tougher than he is.
La Nej Garrison: [laughs]
Sean McDowell: There's no doubt about that. Let me circle back then. I wanna come back to what you're doing right now.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Are there, so in the song it says, "Billie Jean is not my lover. She's just a girl."
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Now, if I listen to this, I'm like, wait a minute. You're talking about my mom. She's not just a girl. Like, that would make me upset. If I flip around and I go from where Michael was-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And the accusations, and apparently it affected his mental health and the concern-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... I can understand why he's wanting to do everything to distance from this narrative for his life and his health and his music and everything. Do you have any animosity towards the Jackson family or towards him, or what's your perspective of them now that you're on the other side of this, sharing that your story?
La Nej Garrison: Not an inkling. They didn't, they didn't have anything. They didn't contribute to her illness. They weren't the reason for her delusion, and they are just kind of the recipients of, you know, the consequences of what she chose. And so I don't feel, I I don't, I honestly, I don't feel anything- ... Kind of towards them. They're, to me, they're just people that something happened to them and, you know, he used that and, you know, helped him in his career. Like, we all use things, and we all have experiences that help determine our everyday life or that influence our behavior or, you know. There's no anger on my end and no, like, they don't owe us anything. They, it's just- ... That's what happened to him. And honestly, a part of me makes me sad. You know, it's... And I think that's the thing with Billie. Like, it's, like, for them, it's like this woman that had all that, but for me, it's like that I'm sorry that that's who she was to them. Like, that's, that'd be terrifying, you know? And then I remember years I was terrified of her. We were scared of her, you know, coming in and, I know her. And so for them not to know her, I, you know, I'm sad that that's, that that has been their reality and his kids' reality, 'cause I know it was for years, even after he died, that she was someone that was still there, that- ... They were still concerned about. And so...
Sean McDowell: That's, that's super gracious, and that makes sense. I think the first time we were talking about this, your mom was... So let me take a step back. Michael Jackson, I think, died in 2009.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: 17-plus years ago. Your mom died two years ago, so around 2024.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Is that right?
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: I think when we first talked she was still alive, I think, when you first shared the story with me, maybe, if I remember-
La Nej Garrison: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Remember correctly. Were you able to have some final moments with her? What was that like kind of at the end when she passed? Were you still in a relationship with her? Had things come full circle, or was it just kind of a painful end?
La Nej Garrison: It was a pretty painful end, 'cause she died in a home and, you know, she wanted us to take her out. She didn't wanna be there.But she's, was difficult, and it was hard, you know? And she still blamed us and, said that Michael was, you know, punishing us up, punishing us, you know, even up to maybe a month or so before she died. And so it was a sad end. You know? My aunt may say something different, but death is hard, and when someone dies, you know, kind of the way that she did- ... And, like, we had to struggle with all of those serious end-of-life questions that you have to ask, it was rough, and I was not... I wasn't prepared. I'd never experienced that type of grief, and so I really wasn't prepared about how hard that would hit us and hit my sister and I. So that was a... That was a, that was... It was, it was very difficult. It was difficult for all of us. It was really difficult for my brother, who'd been in prison over 30 years-
Sean McDowell: Whoa
La Nej Garrison: ... And-
Sean McDowell: Wow
La Nej Garrison: ... Was just released maybe three weeks before she passed and had not seen her, but still couldn't get to her.
Sean McDowell: Oh, so he never got to have kind of a goodbye.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-mm.
Sean McDowell: Oh, that would be... That would be hard.
La Nej Garrison: No, that was... And so, and so we, 'cause that was always all of our dream, was to one day be in the room, like, all four of us with her, and so we kinda never had that, like, that closure, that... So it was hard.
La Nej Garrison: But she knew she, that we loved her.
Sean McDowell: You did love your mom, didn't you?
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. And my kids got to meet her. I did.
Sean McDowell: They did?
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm. And
Sean McDowell: So she was not a part of their life growing up.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-mm.
Sean McDowell: And that was probably an intentional decision.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: They met her when? How did that go?
La Nej Garrison: They met her about the last year of her life. We brought them down two times. And... No, I'm sorry. No. They did, she did meet them younger, I believe one time, at a birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese when my sister was living.
Sean McDowell: [laughs] Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Like, there was that one time, but they don't really remember that, so it I would say- ... Like, the last year, you know, we brought them in and they got to meet her the two times. So that was... It, it's like a colliding of worlds 'cause you've, you keep everything so separate and-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
La Nej Garrison: ... Kind of keep this in a box and, like, don't let this box spill over, and that's, like, I'll call my sister. I'm like, "My box is leaking."
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: Like, I need all of this to stay.
Sean McDowell: And she knows what you mean. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: Yes. Oh, 100%. She's like, "I know." I'm like, "We gotta... I gotta put this in a box. Like, I'm not ready to open that box." But that's, like, her death helped. Like, it was like the Lord was like, "All of these, like, all of these are done." Like, this is all one story and one
La Nej Garrison: kind of connection to where He was, He's helped me put all of this together to say, "Okay. You don't have to keep this separate. You don't have to be afraid to tell this. You don't have to be, worried about what other people will say, how they will judge you, what they'll think about you. I'm the one that has, ordained all of your steps, so trust me with it all." And so that's been like, "All right, Lord. I'm trusting you," and it's been... The journey in itself to even get, even getting, sitting here with you has been the Lord- ... Open door after door. And you know, Matt has been the biggest advocate and supporter ... Like, "Trust the Lord. That's it. That's the only-"
Sean McDowell: Matt, your husband, or people?
La Nej Garrison: Matt, my husband. Yes.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
La Nej Garrison: Like, trust the Lord, and even now, once we told my kids, they're like, "Oh, Mom, yeah. Do it. Yeah. Who cares?" I'm like, "Well, what if they say?" They're like, "We don't care what people say." I'm like, "Okay."
Sean McDowell: Wow.
La Nej Garrison: And so...
Sean McDowell: So do you have Just a few more questions if that's okay.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: When you hear people talking about mental health-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... Like, what's the message you want people to take from this? Because I would imagine the judgment of your mom from the outside, you wanna say, "Wait, there's a whole other story here," and maybe the way we talk about people and the dynamic. Like, what's, what is your message when issues of, like, mental health come up given that it's been so personal to you?
La Nej Garrison: I think the one big thing is, we sometimes forget that people really struggle and, how serious mental health takes a toll on the entire family. Usually we isolate that person is dealing with a mental health struggle. No, it's that family is dealing with the mental health. Whatever varying degree it happens, the entire family is affected by that person's struggle and that person's reality. And like, it's, it was hard, especially when, like, funding was taken away you know, from California and so many hospitals were closed down, where it was like she didn't have, we didn't have any place for her to go, and so she was on the streets more, and, ... They did find, you know, thank goodness, like, we knew people that were able to work and get her into housing and things like that. But mental illness is... It, it's a hard thing to reconcile that, I think especially with people that struggle with, like, where is God and mental health issues and why does God allow these people to struggle with this, and it's really the ultimate problem of evil. You know?
Sean McDowell: That's right.
La Nej Garrison: And it's a reminder that, yes, we live in a fallen world, but yet God is still sovereign in the midst of all of this, you know, fallenness. And so it's been hard and, you know, I'd say my brother still struggles with mental health issues, you know, to this day andAnd trying to help him realize that it's a struggle, and get the proper help, you know, that he needs. So that's probably the biggest thing with mental health. But also, the biggest thing also is even if you have these struggles, or even if you have, you know, experienced abuse and you've experienced all of this, tragedies in your life, that's not an excuse to walk away from God.
Sean McDowell: Amen.
La Nej Garrison: And I don't, I don't ever want my experiences or my pain or the existence of evil does not mean God doesn't exist. And so we still have a responsibility about the way that we live and respond to the gospel in spite of all of this. I was just telling someone a few years ago, I was like, "I hate the saying that children are resilient." Children are not resilient. [laughs] Children carry all of these things with them- ... And the experiences from the past and their pain. So the question is not about resiliency, the question is about healing and allowing God to heal you, and allowing yourself to understand the Eternal's perspective. That's the way that we move forward, not acting like it doesn't exist or, you know, just saying, "Oh, they'll bounce back from it." 'cause that's not reality. And I don't know why adults say that, 'cause they know that's not [laughs] reality.
Sean McDowell: Well, I think we say it to justify what we wanna do.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: That's what a lot of the divorce revolution was pushed through, was, "Oh, it's best for kids. They're resilient. They'll be fine."
La Nej Garrison: Yes.
Sean McDowell: Because that's what adults want.
La Nej Garrison: Yep.
Sean McDowell: It's an excuse, not a reality-
La Nej Garrison: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... I think 99% of the time. Tell us what you're doing now. So did you graduate '03 from the MA Phil program, or what year did you finish?
La Nej Garrison: Oh, gosh, Sean. Now you're asking-
Sean McDowell: Oh
La Nej Garrison: ... Years.
Sean McDowell: Sorry, I'm not trying to [laughs] ...
La Nej Garrison: Yes. No, we're going-
Sean McDowell: Roughly early 2000s. We'll go with that.
La Nej Garrison: Yes, we'll go with that. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: 'Cause I was there 2000 to 2003.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And I remember we overlapped.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And that is, that was life-changing for me. My wife can attest to that. I've gone on and, well, people here know what I've done, but tell us, what was your undergrad degree in at Biola?
La Nej Garrison: Okay. Theater.
Sean McDowell: Oh, okay. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: I
Sean McDowell: Missed that memo. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: Yes. I did theater and communications, and then a Bible minor, and so that was the plan, still going into the industry.
Sean McDowell: Oh, okay.
La Nej Garrison: And so I had... I was acting and auditioning, and so that's what I was gonna do when I graduated. And I, you know- ... Being a struggling actress, you know, was very, you know, difficult and that... I mean, I could go on and on, 'cause there's a whole 'nother path about how God led
Sean McDowell: We'll do part two
La Nej Garrison: ... Yes, to the philosophy program. But that was literally life-changing for me. It just... I was like, "Yep, got it, got it." 'Cause that was actually my second seminary, 'cause I left-
Sean McDowell: You mean the experience, the MA Phil program, was life-changing.
La Nej Garrison: Life-changing.
Sean McDowell: 'Cause it was for me, too.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And I mean in terms of my confidence, my vision, my focus.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: I was like, "Wow, this is defensible. I understand why." Sounds like that was similar to you. So you've done what since? Or tell us more what you do now. There's the journey going overseas and-
La Nej Garrison: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... Matt's playing basketball.
La Nej Garrison: Yes all that.
Sean McDowell: We don't have to get into any-
La Nej Garrison: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... [laughs] any of that stuff, but tell us what you're doing now.
La Nej Garrison: So now I'm a chaplain at our school, a private Christian school, and I teach a worldview class which is designed to, It's a curriculum that I wrote and using part of Frank Pastore's,
Sean McDowell: Amazing
La Nej Garrison: ... Curriculum, with Gina, and they've allowed me to use that. And we've gotten accredited through Colorado Christian.
Sean McDowell: Oh, that's great.
La Nej Garrison: And so it's wonderful 'cause they can take that class, and the goal is to help them defend the existence of God without quoting a scripture. And so that's what I'm... So I tell them, "All right. You've got all my years of [laughs] seminary. I've got one year to give it to you." And they're like... I'm like, "Let's start. Logic." [laughs] And so we
Sean McDowell: I love it
La Nej Garrison: ... Hardcore for a year. And I do, you know, speaking. I did The Stand to Reason and, I'm part of the Desert Apologetics Board in the desert. And, you know, teaching at churches and chauffeuring my boys around to football, basketball-
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: ... Baseball, soccer.
Sean McDowell: And probably something else we missed in that one that they're up to.
La Nej Garrison: Yes
Sean McDowell: Okay. So you also taught a junior college class-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... For a while.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So public junior college, worldview, philosophy, just engaging.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So you've been kinda doing this apologetics philosophy thing for a while.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: If somebody's hearing this, and by the way, you've mentioned Stand to Reason a couple times. That was their reality student conferences.
La Nej Garrison: Yes.
Sean McDowell: I think I kicked it off Friday night, and I think you closed it Saturday night-
La Nej Garrison: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... For that season maybe two, three years ago now.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: If somebody's hearing this going, "Wow, this story is, A, interesting, B, it's redemptive-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And C, you've got some, like, substance on the problem of evil and why God exists, and wanted to invite you to come speak," would you consider doing that?
La Nej Garrison: Sure, yes. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: How can people get ahold of you? And now don't get, not that you would, like-
La Nej Garrison: Uh-uh
Sean McDowell: ... [laughs] any personal information, but is there a website? Is there a best way to get ahold of you?
La Nej Garrison: So I do. I have a website. It's lanej garrison.org.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
La Nej Garrison: And so they can fill out a interest form through there or contact
Sean McDowell: And Lanej is L-A-N-E-J-
La Nej Garrison: J, yes
Sean McDowell: ... Garrison, G-A-R-R-I-S-O-N.org.
La Nej Garrison: Yes.
Sean McDowell: That's your website.
La Nej Garrison: Or on social media. We could put the, what's it called? The hashtag. Is it the hashtag? See, I'm really bad at this. The handle.
Sean McDowell: The handle.
La Nej Garrison: Thank you, honey.
Sean McDowell: Good work.
La Nej Garrison: Yes. You could put our handle, and people... That's where a lot of people contact me is through Instagram.
Sean McDowell: Through Instagram.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Is there any part of your story that we missed? Is there anything that you, just on your heart, that you wanna share to people who are listening to this or sum things up? Like, I wanna make sure we covered what was important to you.
La Nej Garrison: No, I don't think so. You know, there's more always, 'cause it's, it was a lot.
La Nej Garrison: But I think for me it's just very cathartic to be able to just say it out loud.
Sean McDowell: Good.
La Nej Garrison: 'cause I've never said it out loud publicly about, you know, who she was. And so-I'm excited that Lord is saying, "Okay, you know, you've said it, you got through it," and I didn't cry the whole time. Like, that's-
Sean McDowell: You didn't cry at all
La Nej Garrison: ... Jesus. I was holding it.
Sean McDowell: It's tough. [laughs]
La Nej Garrison: I was holding it.
La Nej Garrison: But I you know, I think, I'm appreciative that you have allowed me to share this and to just hear, that she was a person- ... Too, that had a struggle. She wasn't just, you know, this woman that was out there. She had a personal mental struggle, and that's why, you know, she stalked him. And so I think that kind of sensitivity, I hope, helps people see her a little bit differently.
Sean McDowell: So really, your takeaway hope is, seems to me, a few things. Number one, people would see the underlying faith component.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: That God is good and God is real-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And brings peace even through about as broken of a circumstance as somebody can come through.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: That seems to be A. B would just be that somebody with mental illness affects the whole family.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: But this is a person, and that's a human being.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: That's the big takeaway for me, 'cause I just remember as a kid hearing about Michael Jackson's stalker, and when you told me, I was like, "Oh, my goodness." Like, I probably said something as a kid, I don't even know, probably something insensitive I could imagine when I was 8 or 10 years old, and you're like, "This is a human being. This is my mom, and I loved her."
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: That's a huge takeaway. How do you want people just to respond to this? Did that really sum up what your heart is in sharing this?
La Nej Garrison: I think so.
La Nej Garrison: I think the final takeaway is, you know, like, everyth- all of those points that you've said, but that also all of these things lead back to who Jesus is.
Sean McDowell: Amen.
La Nej Garrison: And all of these things, like, this is my story, but it's not the end of the story, and there's more. And God can keep using you because we have an eternity coming. And so this is a stamp, but this is not it. And, like, and there's so many more things that God has done in my life and, that it, this wasn't the only thing that defined me. But it was impactful-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
La Nej Garrison: ... For sure.
Sean McDowell: To say the least.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Well, my hope is that people will invite you to come speak. My hope is that your book that you've been talking about and you're working on right now, this maybe could give some encouragement to that and open up some doors for you.
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: I think you have a super important voice today-
La Nej Garrison: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... That needs to be heard, that's a part of your story. And so this has been a treat. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Thanks for giving me the privilege of being the one to partner with you to share your story.
La Nej Garrison: Thank you so much, Sean.
Sean McDowell: You bet. [outro music]
