Biola University
What are the main tenets of the sexual revolution and who are some of the main victims? How do the debates over gender connect to the overall sexual revolution? Who are some of the main victims of the sexual revolution? What is the view of the body in gender ideology and how is that different from a Christian view of the body? We’ll answer these questions and more with our guest, Dr. Jennifer Morse, founder and president of the Ruth Institute.
Dr. Morse is the President and founder of The Ruth Institute, an interfaith international coalition to defend the family and build a Civilization of Love.
Dr. Morse was a campaign spokeswoman for California’s winning Proposition 8 campaign, defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman. She has authored or co-authored six books and spoken around the globe. Her work has been translated into Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Polish and Chuukese, the native language of the Micronesian Islands.
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] What are some of the main tenets of the sexual revolution, and who are some of its main victims? How do the debates over gender connect to the overall sexual revolution? And what is the view of the body in gender ideology, and how is that different from a Christian view of the body? We'll answer these questions and more with our guest, Dr. Jennifer Morse, founder and president of the Ruth Institute. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and this is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Dr. J, as you are affectionately known by your friends, welcome. So glad to have you back with us. It's been too long since we've had you on.
Jennifer Morse: Well, thanks a lot, Scott.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Jennifer Morse: It's great being here at the Acton University.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Jennifer Morse: You meet so many of your old friends, and we have-- we're having a nice incarnational experience here.
Scott Rae: Yes, we are.
Jennifer Morse: We're not having a virtual experience-
Scott Rae: That's, that's correct
Jennifer Morse: ... So that's cool.
Scott Rae: So let's, let's sort of start this back to basics from the very beginning. How would you define the sexual revolution?
Jennifer Morse: Okay, I came up with a definition of the sexual revolution that has three parts, and the reason I did that, Scott, is because the sexual revolution seems to have all sorts of crazy stuff coming at you from one direction after another. But if you can break it down into three parts, then it's more manageable, and so that's the way I look at it. The first tenet of the sexual revolution is that a good and decent society should do everything possible to separate sex from babies, and you'll recognize that as the source of the demand for abortion and contraception, and, you know, now we're on to not only do we-- can we have sex without babies, we can have babies without sex. You know, so we've really got, really severed that connection between sex and babies completely. I refer to that as the contraceptive ideology, okay? The second main idea of the sexual revolution is that a good and decent society should do everything possible to separate both sex and babies from marriage. So you don't have to be married to have sex. You don't have to be married to have a baby. And when we at the Ruth Institute talk about this ideology, we refer to it as the divorce ideology, and we include under this heading anything that separates a child from one of his or her parents, except for an unavoidable tragedy, 'cause people do die-
Scott Rae: Right
Jennifer Morse: ... And get sick and that kind of thing.
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: But so we include divorce, unmarried childbearing, you know, unmarried... Having parents who are unmarried. I never use the term single parent because there's no such thing. Every child has two parents-
Scott Rae: Right
Jennifer Morse: ... But they may be unmarried, and you may be unable to interact with one of them. And then finally, of course, we include the whole topic of third-party reproduction with the purchase of sperms and eggs-
Scott Rae: Right
Jennifer Morse: ... And renting wombs and all of that. So we call that the divorce ideology, and the underlying idea there is that kids don't really need their parents, so adults can do-
Scott Rae: Kids are, kids are resilient.
Jennifer Morse: They're so resilient, Scott. I mean, we all can see that. Oh, sorry, I'm being a little bit sarcastic. I hope the listeners got that. [chuckles] Um-
Scott Rae: I don't think that'll be the last time here, so.
Jennifer Morse: Yeah, right. But seriously, I... This is a very serious ideology, the divorce ideology. It's very insidious. And then the third one is the thing that I think is on most people's minds most of the time nowadays, and that is the idea that the sex of the body is not particularly significant for anything, and that-
Scott Rae: At all.
Jennifer Morse: At all, and we can, we can overwrite it if we want to, you know? So I would include some kinds of feminism under this heading, which basically said, "All gender-based roles are illegitimate. Any differences between men and women are illegitimate and socially constructed, and so therefore, in the name of equality, we must, by all means, wipe all of that out." and now, of course, that idea, you know, which has gone on unchallenged for all these decades, has morphed into the idea that you can take on whatever identity that you want, and if you want to rewrite the chemistry and physiology of your own body, that's okay, too, because after all, personal autonomy is an important goal. And so if the sex of the body is in the way of personal autonomy, boom, we can get rid of it, you know? And so this is the thing that I think is on most people's minds most of the time today, but all three of these things are interrelated to each other.
Scott Rae: Okay, now we'll, we'll, we'll connect the dots on these in a bit.
Jennifer Morse: Okay.
Scott Rae: But who are s- who are, say, the top two or three victims-
Jennifer Morse: Oh
Scott Rae: ... Of the sexual revolution?
Jennifer Morse: Oh.
Scott Rae: 'Cause I know you have a long list of these.
Jennifer Morse: I do. I do, and-
Scott Rae: But who's at the top of the list?
Jennifer Morse: Yeah, yeah, and in my book, The Sexual State, the whole first chapter of that book is giving kind of little vignettes, you know, of people that I think you'll recognize, you know, if you go through and read them. But, well, gee, let's, let's start with the gender ideology first. [chuckles] We'll go back in reverse order. The big victims, some of the big victims of the gender ideology are, of course, the young people who think they can change the sex of their bodies and are making, in some cases, irrevera- you know, irreversible decisions, with their bodies. But in addition to that, the people who are expecting men and women to be the same all the time and wrecking their marriage. You know, the, of people of our generation, a lot of us messed that up, you know? So it's not as bad as cutting off your body parts, but on the other hand, there were a lot of people who did that, you know, and caused a lot of problems.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Morse: There's a whole group of people who think that the sex of the body doesn't matter for your choice of sex partner. And so if you experience whatever kind of attractions you experience, then that, you should be- you should just go with the attractions and not think too closely about the body, you know? So those would be some of the big victims of the gender ideology.
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: The divorce ideology, of course, the number one victim there is the children of divorce, and the reluctantly divorced spouse, the abandoned spouse, and according to our statistics, Scott, at least 70% of divorces in America have one reluctant partner.
Scott Rae: Really?
Jennifer Morse: Yeah, yeah. So in other words, if you ask, if you ask a divorcing couple, "Who wanted it?"... I wanted it, he wanted it, we both wanted it equally, you know. The answer you come up with is about at least 70% say, "I didn't want it," or, "She didn't want it," or, you know-
Scott Rae: Yeah, yeah
Jennifer Morse: ... One of the, a mismatch in the, in the-
Scott Rae: So not a mutually consenting thing.
Jennifer Morse: Correct. We have the official nav- narrative of the sexual revolution is that the purpose of no-fault divorce is to make it so two adult, mature people can be sensible and just end their marriage by mutual agreement, and that should be as easy as possible. But if that only applies to less than 30% of the cases-
Scott Rae: Yeah, yeah
Jennifer Morse: ... You've obviously got a problem there, [chuckles] you know? Um-
Scott Rae: Well, that's a, that's a, that's a pretty good, that's a pretty good top three-
Jennifer Morse: Yeah. Yeah, yeah
Scott Rae: ... Right there to start.
Jennifer Morse: Well, well, but let's, let's finish off with the, let's finish off with the contraceptive ideology, the people who've been victimized by that. Of course, the women who regret their abortions, right? The women who have experienced some kind of physical problem as a result of their abortions or their contraceptive use.
Scott Rae: Yeah, maybe lost their fertility
Jennifer Morse: Or damaged their fertility in some way or, you know, there's a whole list of things, that are potentially in play there. But then also, [lips smack] a lot of people don't know this, there's something worldwide called the fertility gap, which is the difference between how many children a woman says she wants when she's 20 versus how many she ends up with, and that there is a gap, worldwide. Around the world-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... Women end up with fewer children than they said they wanted. And I can tell you, as somebody who experienced infertility, it, that's a miserable experience. So there's a lot on the doorstep of these, sexual revolutionary ideologues, in my opinion.
Scott Rae: Yeah. No, that's really helpful. So the, as you mentioned, the sort of the latest manifestation of the sexual revolution is the one that is sort of front and center today. So help us connect the dots a little bit. How do the debates over gender connect to the, to the philosophy of the se- of the sexual revolution?
Jennifer Morse: Well, that's a, that's a good q- I'm glad you asked that question because, you know, a lot of times people like to skate along the surface of the thing and say, "Well, this is crazy." But truthfully, all the previous steps were also crazy, and we knew it at the time, but we don't know it anymore, you know, because we've gotten used to whatever it is, you know? So one of the things that led to transgenderism, and I don't think there's any serious doubt about this, is the redefinition of marriage. When the US Supreme Court redefined marriage in the Obergefell decision, which is liter- this is the 10-year anniversary of that, by the way. We're recording this on the 25th of June. The 26th of June will be the 10-year anniversary-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... Of Obergefell versus Hodges, which created same-sex marriage, so-called, in the entire country. And literally, within days, other things were in play that had to do with transgenderism. So I interviewed a, one of the attorneys who argued the case at the Supreme Court, one of the, one of the ADF attorneys, Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys. And he said after that case was announced, within two weeks, his docket was filled with transgender cases. They were popping up all over the place, you know, just one after the other. 80% of his docket within a month is all transgender cases, so you can't tell me that wasn't planned, you know? And then, also, the day before Obergefell was announced, Vanity Fair released its magazine, the issue of the magazine, that had Bruce Jenner on the cover-
Scott Rae: Is that right?
Jennifer Morse: ... All dolled up like a woman. Okay, the d- literally, the day before. Two weeks later, July 15th, is the first episode of I Am Jazz, the reality TV show-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... Featuring a little boy whose mother thought she- he was really a girl, and, you know, America was invited into their home to watch this whole process, right? So the point, the philosophical connection, I would say here... Yeah, so the chronolo- the chronology's undeniable. Anybody can go look that up, right? But, but the philosophical-
Scott Rae: [clears throat]
Jennifer Morse: ... Connection is the Supreme Court asserted that the sex of the body does not matter for marriage. Newsflash: marriage is the institution that connects mothers and fathers to their children and to one another. If the sex of the body doesn't matter for marriage, it doesn't matter for anything.
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: [chuckles] Right? It doesn't matter on the playing field. It doesn't matter in the bathroom or the locker room. It doesn't, it doesn't matter, you know? And so the i- the ideologues who are really promoting this stuff, they were ready with the very next step, literally within days of that announcement. So, that- what can I say? I mean-
Scott Rae: Yeah. And now, let's, let's, again, be a, be a little, be clear for our listeners here. When you, when you use the term gender ideology-
Jennifer Morse: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Exactly what do you mean by that? And as I read some of your work on this, it's different than the original version, but what we see today.
Jennifer Morse: Yes. Yes. Originally, there was this thing that called itself feminism, okay? And you and I are of roughly the same generation, so we remember the rhetoric from that era. Other people might not be as familiar with it, but part of the rhetoric of that era was that, gender roles were illegitimate, right, and that a woman could do anything a man could do. And if there was imbalance or inequality, that proved something was wrong. The money should be the same. The career path should be the same. The number of people in every s- every occupation should be the same. So there was... And we should get rid of all sexual stereotypes, right? So there's no girl jobs, and there's no girl look, and, you know, all this kind of thing.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Morse: Well, now here we are, all these years later, and men are putting on dresses and nail polish and claiming they're women, and that that's all it takes. So we've basically resurrected the worst kind and stupidest, if I may say so, the stupidest stereotypes of what it means to be male or female. So now-... How do these things hold together? They're in direct contradiction with each other, okay? And so, I pondered this quite a while, Scott, you know, to try to figure out what in the world is going on here, right? I think the thing that holds it together, I think the thing that all of these different things have in common, is the idea that the sex of the body is simply not important. It doesn't matter for anything. And, and that means that our body, in a way, the body doesn't matter. You know, there's a deep discomfort with the, with our physicality. And so if you have a male brain, you should be allowed to be a male. [chuckles] You, you know what I mean? And that's what I said earlier, that the social goal of personal autonomy is so important-
Scott Rae: Yes
Jennifer Morse: ... We should be able to overwrite the sex of the body if we feel like it. For the, some of the feminists, the social goal of equality was so important that we overwrite the sex of the body. So that's how I- that's how it makes sense to me. That's how I would define it.
Scott Rae: That's, that's really helpful, I think, especially bringing the autonomy part into this, because it strikes me that's a, that's a little bit of a hubris of human beings, to think that our choices can override, you know, our, the biological functions that God has ordained-
Jennifer Morse: Right
Scott Rae: ... For us.
Jennifer Morse: Right.
Scott Rae: Um-
Jennifer Morse: Well, well, that our choices and our auton- that our will can triumph over the reality of God's creation. You know, the earlier view that was normative throughout Christian civilization... Well, even before Christian civilization. What am I saying? The Greeks knew this, right? The reality is a thing, and the way a person flourishes is by conforming to what is. Now, not 100%, because you can have human injustice-
Scott Rae: Right
Jennifer Morse: ... And human problems-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Jennifer Morse: ... And things like that. But, you know, even if you're gonna respond to a hurricane or put out fires, you have to know what the reality is of what causes a fire and how to put it out. You know, there's a-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... There's a way in which, we've always understood that it's not simply our will, that is controlling.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Jennifer Morse: W- if we conform ourself to what is, we'll do better at the things we're trying to do.
Scott Rae: Now, Jennifer, I read a piece that the Ruth Institute put out not too long ago, that proclaimed that Pride Month is a bust.
Jennifer Morse: Huh?
Scott Rae: Right. Tell me what you mean by that, and what does that mean for the future of the sexual revolution?
Jennifer Morse: Well, this has been a very interesting season, actually. Some of the things that have changed-
Scott Rae: [clears throat]
Jennifer Morse: ... I think probably most of your listeners, if they've been tracking at all, are aware that there's been much less corporate support of Pride Month. You know, many fewer companies-
Scott Rae: Piece in the New York Times just pointed that out.
Jennifer Morse: That is correct.
Scott Rae: Not, not too long ago.
Jennifer Morse: The New York Times had an article about it. Of course, The Wall Street Journal had something about it, you know. That companies are saying, "We'd rather not spend our money changing out our log- the look of our logos and supporting the New York Gay Pride Parade," or whatever it is, you know? And w- this is something we kind of keep track of a little bit. Couple of years ago, when Bud Light, engaged a transgender so-called influencer to try to sell beer, and it was a complete bust, right? And, you know, the public revolted, basically. That year, I would say, was the high point of corporate support for Pride Month. And every time you turned around, there was a, there was a rainbow flag in your face, you know, and people were really fed up with it. It backed off somewhat last year, and this year, it's pretty m- it's very muted this year. And part of the reason, no doubt about it, is the overreach from the tr- from transgenderism. I don't think there's any doubt about that. One consequence of that overreach, in my opinion, is the election of Donald Trump. I don't have any doubt myself, and I'm not a big political analyst. That's not what I do, but, I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that the trans issue helped Donald Trump, um- ... To be elected. I think a lot of people know that. And he, you know, he marched into office, and the very first thing he did was to back off of some of the things that the federal government's been doing. So I think corporate America saw the handwriting on the wall. It's like, "Why are we even doing this?" You know, "What is the- "Are we really that ideologically committed to it, or was this a season of convenience for us, and we're past that now?" That's, that's what I think. That's-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Jennifer Morse: ... That's what I think we're seeing, and that's my analysis of why we're seeing it.
Scott Rae: I can see where it might have been good for business in the past, but not so much anymore.
Jennifer Morse: Yeah, yeah.
Scott Rae: Um-
Jennifer Morse: And, you know, during the, during the season that, marriage was still b- considered a debatable question, you know, somewhere between Prop 8 in 2008 and Obergefell in 2015, corporations were under a lot of pressure to wave the rainbow flag. And a lot of people felt that, you know, if you didn't support the whole agenda, that you were gonna be canceled, you were gonna be marginalized-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... You were gonna be doxxed. And I think, most of us of our, of our age group and, well, I think a lot... Anybody who was an adult during that period of time knows the kind of incidents that I'm talking about, you know-
Scott Rae: Right
Jennifer Morse: ... Where people really-
Scott Rae: Right
Jennifer Morse: ... D- you know, took it on the chin if they didn't, if they didn't agree. So that... And now people are rethinking that. Because it led so immediately to transgenderism, a lot of people who are perfectly fine with redefining marriage are now scratching their heads and wondering, "Is this really what we signed up for?" You know. And my answer is, "Yeah, it is kind of what you signed up for." They made sure-
Scott Rae: You just didn't realize it.
Jennifer Morse: Yeah, they made sure you didn't know that. Okay, so let's, let's-... You were around. You're in California. You saw all this going down. When they were promoting gay marriage, they never showed you drag queens.
Scott Rae: No.
Jennifer Morse: Okay? Drag queens were not- they would always show a female couple, looking kind of, non-threatening, maybe having children or something like that. That, that's what gay marriage is all about, right? And then you turn around, and boom, [chuckles] drag queen story hour. What the heck just happened here, you know? So I think people are wising up to the fact that they s- you know, they... This, this is a bigger deal than they signed up for.
Scott Rae: So tell us a little bit about this new campaign that the Ruth Institute's working on, called Leaving Pride Behind.
Jennifer Morse: Oh.
Scott Rae: What, what is that about?
Jennifer Morse: Oh, Scott, I tell you, I tell you. I have a dear colleague, sociology colleague, who's been gathering data on the question of, Well, he got interested in it through the question of conversion therapy, so-called. Is it true that conversion therapy hurts people, and should therefore it should be banned? And now what we're talking about is people who experience unwanted same-sex attraction. They go to a therapist. They work with the therapist. The gay lobby wants you to believe that that is always and everywhere harmful because people are born gay. Being gay is like being left-handed. Being gay is like being Black. If you try to change somebody from being left-handed, you're going to hurt them, you know, and this is the analogy. So my colleague, Fathers Father Paul Sullins, has been examining that, and that- this is how we got into it, okay? This is a little... Just to give people some context for it. And he starts looking at the data, and you go, "You know, that's not true." I mean, we're being told ad nauseam that it's true, but it's not true, you know? I- the studies, I could go, I could go on all day about what's wrong with the studies that say- ... You know, that they keep bringing up. But, you know, I'm no stranger to junk science, Scott. The whole gay marriage thing was run with junk science. You know, just to be honest, [chuckles] you know, there's a lot of that out there. But anyway, so he produced a couple of charts that seem to show that ex- there are more ex-gays in America than are, than there are gays. And I'm like, "What?" And he goes, "Well, look, here are the people," if you a- 'cause a number of surveys ask these kind of questions. You know, "Who do you have sex with? How do you define yourself?" You know? And h- and so if a person says, "I'm gay, and I h- only have sex with same-sex partners," okay, there's a number of people like that. Then you got other people, and you say, "Do you call yourself gay?" "No, I don't call myself gay." "Have you ever had sex with a same-sex partner in the last five years?" "Yes." "Are you having sex with a same-sex partner today?" "No." Okay, you could call those people ex-gay. [chuckles] And if you tally them up, there are more ex-gays than there are gays. I'm like, "Paul, Father Sullins, we gotta talk to these people. There have to be millions of these people out there. Let's go talk to them." So we have a whole series of interviews now with men and women who have, in one way or the other, left Pride behind. Some of them use therapy. Some of them didn't. Some of them are Catholic. Some of them are Protestant, Pentecostals, all over the place, you know, v- um-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Morse: Most of them have some kind of conversion experience. That's true. But they didn't exactly seek it. You know, it's not like Jesus bonked them on the head. Well, in some cases, Jesus bonked them on the head, but, you know, it- there's a, there's a wide range of experiences there, and some of these people have been married to opposite-sex partners for decades. So it's not like a flash in the pan, kind of thing, you know? So I feel like these people deserve a platform, and we're giving them a platform.
Scott Rae: Well, and we- I'd be very interested to see the, some of the links to those interviews that we could post in the show notes to this-
Jennifer Morse: Oh
Scott Rae: ... So our listeners can have access to that. That'd be fascinating.
Jennifer Morse: Hundred, 100%. Oh, my gosh.
Scott Rae: So-
Jennifer Morse: And, and I'll tell you something, the spiritual journeys that some of these people have been on, very interesting. You know, when they're really healed, Scott, they release blame. They... Some of them have had terrible things happen to them.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Morse: Some of them have been badly abused and neglected and all kinds of things, but they're not blaming anybody anymore, you know? They're not, they're not feeling sorry for themselves. You know, they've had a long journey in a lot of cases, and it's just, it's... I think the Lord is doing some serious work with these people. They- I think their witness is extremely important, quite apart from any gay stuff. Do you know what I mean?
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Morse: I mean, it's just, this is- ... Showing the power of the love of God and that God can... He can work on anybody. I- and He is.
Scott Rae: That's, that's fascinating.
Jennifer Morse: Oh.
Scott Rae: I mean, I think that's- I think most of our listeners will be caught off guard by that.
Jennifer Morse: Oh, I was.
Scott Rae: I'm sure, yeah.
Jennifer Morse: [chuckles] I was, yeah, for sure.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Now, let's, let's go a little deeper. You've said a little bit about the view of the body in-
Jennifer Morse: Oh
Scott Rae: ... The gender ideology-
Jennifer Morse: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Already. How does that contrast to a Christian view of the body? How should we look at the body theologically?
Jennifer Morse: So, well, the first shocking thing is that God took on a human body. This is a very arresting fact. As Christians, we're used to it, sort of, although we can't completely understand it.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure we've completely gotten over it. [chuckles]
Jennifer Morse: No, well, that's right. That's, that's right. Yeah, it's, it's, So our religion is an incarnational religion. I mean, why did God even risk such a thing? Why did He even make rational creatures with bodies? You know, He had all the angels, who were rational creatures without bodies. Well, you know what? What is He trying to say to us? What is God saying to us about the body? And so I think that the sexual revolution is really an attack on human embodiment. Because if you look at the three ideologies that I mentioned, we've already shown, I think, about the gender ideology-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... That they somehow resent the sex of the body, y- and they're at war with that.
Scott Rae: Yeah, or see it as an obstacle.
Jennifer Morse: It's an... Yes, yes, it's an obstacle to their goals-
Scott Rae: Right
Jennifer Morse: ... You know, whatever they may be. The-... The contraceptive ideology is at war with the fact that sex makes babies. People wanna have all the sex they want without all of the responsibilities and messiness of responsibility for a baby, you know? And so they resent that. And then the fact that children need their parents, in my mind, Scott, this is the core of the whole thing, you know, is the fact that, And that's why the divorce ideology is more important than you might think at first. You know, just-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... Let you meditate on this a little bit, that if we can convince ourselves that the children don't really need their own mother and their own father, well, that allows us, that gives us kind of an empty, an empty stage for us to partner and repartner the way we want. And Jesus, of course, had other ideas on this matter. You know, Jesus was quite clear in Matthew 19 that repartnering while you have a living spouse is not permissible. I mean, it's one thing to separate from your living spouse, but to take another partner, that's adultery. And remember, the apostles were completely freaked out when he said that.
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: You know, they, and they-
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: "What? You gotta be kidding." no, not kidding. And so you could say that lifelong monogamy is really the uniquely Christian part of the traditional Christian sexual ethics. You know, most societies have worked out that sex makes babies and have made some provision for that fact. But the idea of lifelong monogamy, that's the gift of Jesus to the world, you know, because he's trying to protect us from some of the awful things that we're capable of doing-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... To each other. And it, and it all flows from the connection between the conne- the body. You know, it all has to do with things that flow from the body. Why you love your own child more than you love someone else's child, for example.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Jennifer Morse: You know, just-
Scott Rae: Yeah, fair enough.
Jennifer Morse: You, you could multiply all of those instances, you know?
Scott Rae: Fair enough. Now, I think, you know, there's prob... There, there may be s- there may be some exceptions to the general rule on repartnering. That I think the Apostle Paul makes this statement in 1 Corinthians 7, for example, that if you are abandoned, you are free to remarry someone else. But there's, there's this- there's some debate about that. But I just wanted to make-
Jennifer Morse: But, but it's not a Mack, it's not a loophole you can drive a Mack truck through-
Scott Rae: That's, no, that's-
Jennifer Morse: ... [chuckles] which is what we're doing now, you know?
Scott Rae: No, that's true. That's, that's true.
Jennifer Morse: Yeah.
Scott Rae: But it, I think it is, it is one possible exception to that, in the ca- in the case of abandonment. But anyway, that's for another s- that's for another subject altogether.
Jennifer Morse: And, and if the marriage is in- if the marriage is invalid, there's a, there's another place-
Scott Rae: Also true
Jennifer Morse: ... Where they're talking about the marriage being invalid. Well, then it's not really a marriage and-
Scott Rae: That's right
Jennifer Morse: ... And so on and so forth. But, but the... I just wanna... Be that as it may, you know, that it, there may be legitimate, well, exceptions or what have you, no other society has had lifelong monogamy as a social norm and normatively, m- you know, normatively expected of people. That is the Christian tradition.
Scott Rae: Yeah, of course, and I think that is, that's the expectation all the way back to Genesis 1.
Jennifer Morse: That's right. That's right.
Scott Rae: That you leave, cleave, and become one flesh, and you don't, you don't tear those apart easily-
Jennifer Morse: That's right
Scott Rae: ... Or without consequences.
Jennifer Morse: That's right.
Scott Rae: Um-
Jennifer Morse: And now we're- now that we've tried all these crazy things, we can see what Jesus was trying to protect us from.
Scott Rae: Now, let's, let's go back to the gender-
Jennifer Morse: Okay
Scott Rae: ... Question for a minute.
Jennifer Morse: Okay.
Scott Rae: How would you, how would you counsel someone who's experiencing gender dysphoria?
Jennifer Morse: It depends on their age and whether they came to me voluntarily.
Scott Rae: Let's, let's say they come to you voluntarily, and let's say they're a minor.
Jennifer Morse: Okay.
Scott Rae: Say, say 15.
Jennifer Morse: Okay. Well, I'd, I'd wanna just ask them if they... Whatever they said to me, "I think I'm really a boy," or, "I think I'm really a girl," what I would do would be to just ask some open-ended questions. "Tell me more about what you mean. In what way do you feel like a boy?" And give them an open invitation to talk to you.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Morse: That's the, I think, the number one thing, more than any phrase that I could give you or script that I could give you. Have as open-ended a po- as possible conversation with them.
Jennifer Morse: You know, "Why do you feel that way?
Jennifer Morse: What exactly do you mean?" You know, "Is there anything special you wanna tell me about that might have happened to you?" Because sometimes-
Scott Rae: Good question
Jennifer Morse: ... There are things that have happened to kids.
Scott Rae: Good question.
Jennifer Morse: You know? "Is there anything you'd like to tell me? I would like to assure you that however you feel today, it's not the final word about how you feel or are going to feel. It's not the final word about your identity." I would say that to anybody of any age, honestly. You know, you know what I mean?
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Morse: Because we-
Scott Rae: So that would also be good advice for adults who've, who sense this.
Jennifer Morse: I think that's right. I, actually, I- pretty much what I just said would be good advice for anybody of any age, you know? And, and it would be good in a, in a church setting because my people who have left Pride behind, some of them are- have the trans issue going on-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... Some of them are gay or lesbian or whatever. Most of them have a story about a church community that walked with them, that did not reject them, but also did not change the rules for them.
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: You know, in one way or another, I've heard that multiple times. So if you have that, mindset, that that's what you're aiming for, you know, you're aiming to make them feel included and loved and, you know, part of the team, one of the boys, one of the girls, part of the church, part of the body of Christ. "Whatever you might think you are, a boy or a girl, you're part of the body of Christ. We want you here, and we're not going to go along with you and say that you were born in the wrong body. Because nobody's born in the wrong body. That doesn't make any sense. God doesn't do that, so-... Let's talk, you know, let-
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: Tell me more.
Scott Rae: Right. Okay.
Jennifer Morse: Now, now invite them to tell you more kind of thing.
Scott Rae: All right. Now, let's, let's take this a step further.
Jennifer Morse: [gasps] Okay.
Scott Rae: And just, and I'll, we'll, we'll wrap up with this.
Jennifer Morse: Okay.
Scott Rae: What have... What would you say or what kind of a counsel would you have, how would you approach someone who has, you know, they've experienced gender dysphoria, they've taken, let's just say it's an adolescent that's taken some pretty ster- serious steps toward changing their body-
Jennifer Morse: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... And they're feeling regret-
Jennifer Morse: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... About that now. Maybe they've taken some irreversible steps.
Jennifer Morse: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And they, and they regret... They, they would, they would be what we call, what are commonly called detransitioners-
Jennifer Morse: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Today. How, how would you approach that person?
Jennifer Morse: So, I would say, "Wow, you've been through a lot." You know, the first thing would be to acknowledge that they've been through a lot. Of course, it depends on where you come into the story, you know, but, I think the, again, the mindset that you wanna have toward the person is to acknowledge they've been through a lot, and to say, I think I- somewhere I would try to say, "I'm sorry that all of this happened to you. I'm sorry you didn't have better information. I'm sorry-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... Their people didn't know what to do and were unable to help you. How can I help?" At some point, I would say, "How can I help?" 'Cause sometimes they wanna talk, but sometimes they have real practical problems, like, "There's no insurance for the medical care that I need now."
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: You know, and so, "Well, I know a guy [chuckles] " You know, you might be the person who has resources-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... To help them with their practical stuff, too. So, so that'd be the way I would approach it, Scott, you know. Again, there's not a formula. And if they're angry, I would receive their anger. You know, give them a chance to vent.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Morse: If you can steer them away from wallowing in it, that's probably a good thing.
Scott Rae: So much the better.
Jennifer Morse: But, but to, but to give them a chance to say what they have to say, yeah, that's okay.
Scott Rae: Okay. All right, one final thing. I think our... I would like our listeners to be exposed a little bit more to the Ruth Institute.
Jennifer Morse: Okay.
Scott Rae: So tell them, tell us, how can they get connected to some of the things that the Ruth Institute is doing?
Jennifer Morse: Well, thank you for asking. Our, our website is ruthinstitute.org. When you go there, you can easily sign up for our weekly newsletter. When you sign up for the newsletter, we will send you automatically our report called Refuting the Top Five Gay Myths, which goes through the whole question of whether people are born gay and some of the things we've already talked about the conversion therapy and so forth. So that's the first thing. Go to the website, sign up for the newsletter, and I'll see you every week. The other place you can get connected with us is on our Facebook page or on our YouTube channel. We have a very active YouTube channel. We put out one new, at least one interview every week, and then usually a lot of little short clips and things like that. So there's new content going up there all the time. And, you know, if you start, if you start doing a little search on whatever it is you're interested in, you can probably find whole playlists on leaving Pride behind and pro-life issues and divorce issues and, you know, different things like that. There's even one playlist we have, Scott, called Advice for Parents of LGBT.
Scott Rae: Oh, nice.
Jennifer Morse: And that's when the people that I've interviewed, I've now started asking each one of them somewhere in the interview: "What would you say to the parents? What advice do you have to the friends or loved ones of people who are going through this? What, what can you say?" You know? So I think a lot of people would find that gratifying and helpful to look at that.
Scott Rae: Yeah, we'll put... That's the ruthinstitute.org.
Jennifer Morse: Ruthinstitute.org, and then the-
Scott Rae: Yes
Jennifer Morse: ... Ruth Institute YouTube channel.
Scott Rae: Very good. So thank you. That's... I wanna encourage our listeners to get in touch with the Ruth Institute, 'cause you all are doing such good work on a variety of different fronts. You're, you're definitely not a one-trick pony here.
Jennifer Morse: [laughs] Well, thank you.
Scott Rae: You know, you've, you've just got multiple areas where you are super helpful-
Jennifer Morse: Well, I-
Scott Rae: ... To a lot of different people.
Jennifer Morse: Well, thank you. I appreciate that very much indeed. Let me say one more thing that we have. We have, a little resource center that you can find on one of the dropdown menus on the homepage. It's called Recovering from the Sexual Revolution, and that's where we put ministries that we're aware of that minister to people who have different problems. So there's divorce recovery. There's, there's something for people, adult children of divorce. There's actually a ministry-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Morse: ... To help adult children of divorce. There's stuff for pornography addicts and stuff for people with unwanted same-sex attraction and domestic violence, and all of it from a faith-based perspective that I, that I think will not steer people wrong.
Scott Rae: Well, that's great stuff, and I'm so glad you all are out there doing good work and wanna commend you going forward.
Jennifer Morse: Well, thank you so much, Scott.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Jennifer Morse: And I appreciate you introducing me to your Biola audience.
Scott Rae: Well, this has been... Yeah, this has been super helpful.
Jennifer Morse: Great.
Scott Rae: And I appreciate getting the chance to talk in a little bit more detail than we have in the past with you about the gender ideology and helping us connect the dots-
Jennifer Morse: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... With some of the main tenets of the sexual revolution. That, that, I, in my view, is the most helpful part of this. But I will say, too, you have a, you have a very nice pastoral, sense about you for how to de- for how to deal with some of these kids-
Jennifer Morse: Oh
Scott Rae: ... Who are going through some of these things, too, so.
Jennifer Morse: Oh, well, thank you for saying that.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Jennifer Morse: I hope so.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Jennifer Morse: [chuckles] I try-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Jennifer Morse: ... To have that. You know, we have the sort of scientific mind, but then you also... You know, a chart is not really gonna help.
Scott Rae: Right.
Jennifer Morse: You know, a table of numbers isn't really what they're looking for at that point.
Scott Rae: Well, it's a, it's a nice combination of grace and truth.
Jennifer Morse: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
Scott Rae: And that's, uh-
Jennifer Morse: Oh, oh, do-
Scott Rae: ... It's risk. That's not, that's not super common-
Jennifer Morse: [laughs]
Scott Rae: ... In this, in this particular arena.
Jennifer Morse: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that very... Well, also, we should mention my book, The Sexual State. I think a lot of people would find that book helpful.
Scott Rae: Good.
Jennifer Morse: Just going through the different ideologies, and there's a lot of footnotes in that book.
Scott Rae: Good stuff.
Jennifer Morse: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Well, thanks so much for hanging with us and for a lot of good insight for our listeners today, so much appreciated.
Jennifer Morse: Thanks, Scott.
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology and Biola University, with, programs in Southern California and online. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app and share it with a friend, and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
