Biola University
Is empathy being weaponized by Progressives to manipulate Christians into adopting certain ethical and political views? Is empathy a virtue, or merely an emotion that is sometimes a valuable and important means of loving people? There have been a myriad of Christians books and podcasts on this topic, and so Sean has invited Biola communications professor Tim Muehlhoff to discuss and debate these issues and more. Enjoy!
Tim Muehlhoff received his Ph.D. in Communication Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He is a professor of Communications at Biola University. He is a popular public speaker and the author of many books including End the Stalemate, which he co-wrote with Sean McDowell.
Episode Transcript
Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] Is empathy a sin? What's a bigger concern today: a lack of empathy in our culture and a lack of empathy among Christians towards outsiders, or empathy being weaponized against Christians to adopt progressive views? Let's just say this has been a huge topic of conversation. We welcome back Tim Muehlhoff, Biola professor, co-author of mine. We wrote a book together called End the Stalemate.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Last year, it was either number one or two of all the conversations we had, Tim, on our whole podcast-
Tim Muehlhoff: Wow!
Sean McDowell: ... Our friendly debate about pronouns.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep.
Sean McDowell: So we've been trying to have a follow-up discussion/friendly debate on a topic.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: You suggested this one, and in many ways, this topic kind of overlaps with the topic of pronouns. What does empathy and compassion look like?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: So thanks for coming back, but let's start with I'm really curious why this topic interested you to have a deep-dive conversation about it.
Tim Muehlhoff: Well, first, thanks for having me back. I love our conversations. We've known each other-
Sean McDowell: Me too
Tim Muehlhoff: ... For an insane amount of time, and it's really fun to be able to kick these around in a safe place, and- ... I think we agree on a ton of things. There might be things we see a little bit differently. So empathy, my master's thesis-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Tim Muehlhoff: ... At UNC Chapel Hill, not Duke, let's be very clear-
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Tim Muehlhoff: ... UNC Chapel Hill. A person wrote a letter to the Daily Tar Heel 'cause they had- ... National Coming Out Week, that it was observed every week-
Sean McDowell: Wow
Tim Muehlhoff: ... A, I mean, every year at UNC Chapel Hill. Christian got hacked off, wrote a letter to the Day- Daily Tar Heel calling homosexuality a sin, really going after it. It raised a huge ruckus. The chancellor had to get involved. I mean, it got regional, national attention.
Sean McDowell: When was this, by the way?
Tim Muehlhoff: This is probably-
Sean McDowell: Early 2000s or... ?
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, my gosh, thank you for saying it that way. It was probably a little bit earlier than that.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: No, no, early 2000s. You're right. Yep.
Sean McDowell: There you go.
Tim Muehlhoff: No, thank you. So my, beloved academic mentor came up to me and said, "You're a Christian. Let's do something about this," 'cause the gay community responded. There was a lot of vitriol. So I took three members, self-identified from the gay community, three members of a very conservative group on campus, Christian group.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: And I said, "Give me seven weeks to have the conversation, but if we have it right now, we already know what's gonna happen. It's gonna devolve into ar- yelling and name-calling." So we basically took six weeks of preparation. All of it was rooted in empathy. H- can we empathize with each other even though we really do disagree about the nature of homosexuality or whatever the issue is? So I saw firsthand the power empathy has to bring down walls, open conversation. Now, obviously, nobody changed their mind, per se. The Christians didn't give in, and, the members of the gay community didn't change their perspective, but it changed the tone of the conversation. So that really encouraged me, but now I'm seeing trends that discourage me. Empathy's taken a real hit in the last, 20, 30 years. I mean, consider very quickly, The Atlantic, 2023 just did a whole issue on whatever happened to empathy. The 2025 Compassion Report says that 61% of Americans feel that empathy is lacking. The United Way 2023 study said that empathy, there's burnout, and that 14% of Americans say, "I'm less empathetic," after the pandemic. Scientific American said... In 2020 said, "US has an empathy deficit," and then a fascinating book called Empathy: A History, a Yale scholar said this. She studies empathy, that, how it's originated, defined. This is what she says: "I've never seen empathy vilified in the way that it has been in these current years. To me, this disparagement marks a step in the destruction of our multicultural democracy and provides a path for the verbal dehumanization of others." And I think I've seen that- ... I'm also the co-director of Biola's Winsome Conviction Project. I've seen Christians and non-Christians really go after each other in dehumanizing ways on social media. So I think, I think we're seeing a lack of empathy today, both inside the church and outside the church. That really concerns me.
Sean McDowell: Okay, so some might say, "All right, Tim, go back to your example, early 2000s. No one changed their minds."
Tim Muehlhoff: Right.
Sean McDowell: "No one came to Jesus. Nobody saw like-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Oh, maybe marriage is between a man and a woman. Then what's the point? Why engage in these-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Seven weeks of conversation if no one's gonna change their point?" "No one's gonna come to Jesus," I imagine some voice would say, "Isn't this sinful behavior we should call out?" What would be your response to that?
Tim Muehlhoff: Well, one, it got me a master's. [laughing]
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Tim Muehlhoff: Can we just check that?
Sean McDowell: Oh, that was a part of your thesis work.
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, that was my thesis, Sean.
Sean McDowell: Okay. Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: That was the whole thing I analyzed. So let me just say this on two levels. We are not called to just communicate content. I mean, Paul's very clear. "I want you to speak truth," content. "I want you to do it in love." That's the relational level of communication. The, the most famous apologetic verse in the entire New Testament, Peter says, "Be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you with all gentleness and reverence," and I think what we're doing is we're shaping the communication climate. So d- when that, when week seven came, Sean, we had dinner at our house. Noreen made dinner- ... Laughed, and said, "Protect the china." [laughing] It was like... 'cause now we're gonna talk about our differences, and they full-out did it for four hours. I mean, there was push and pull. The Christians were not backing off of their perspective, but later, in an al- analyzing it based on journals everybody kept- ... Everybody felt like the tone of the conversation had shifted, that I was able to more consider your perspective, whereas before I had walls up. I think empathy can bring the walls down, and so now you're actually listening to my concerns about your sexuality, your morality. So we're creating a communication environment-... Where people can actually hear our conversations. And so, yeah, we are standing up for truth, but we're doing it in a way that people can receive it.
Sean McDowell: Okay, so it's effective communication, you would argue, to be in conversation with somebody, and potentially to love a neighbor by understanding their views and engaging them where they're at.
Tim Muehlhoff: And let me be more provocative.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: Second great commandment, I do not think you can do it without two things: perspective-taking and empathy.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: All right, and-
Tim Muehlhoff: Can, b- can I maybe define empathy?
Sean McDowell: So let me ask you this. Yes, but let me ask-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Let me ask this question first.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: I wanna know why there's so much discussion about empathy kind of in the modern world today. Now, in the Christian Church, there's been a book that was written. Rigney wrote a provocative book called The Sin of Empathy. Created a lot of conversation-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... All over podcasts, there's been dialogue about this. Ellie Beth Stuckey, Toxic Empathy. So Christians have been talking about this, and I think there's some other- there might be some, like, sociological reasons why this is so pressing today. I think there's a lot of hurting people.
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: We've seen depression-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... We've seen anxiety go up, so there's a sense of like, how do we relate to people who are hurting? So this has taken on a certain element of importance.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: I think we also have arguably, like, a victimhood culture today, where there's kind of a sense of like... In a way it wasn't in the past, and maybe this is a part of critical theory, where we almost, like, praise when somebody has experienced a kind of victimhood status. I mean, there's so much literature that's written on this, and there's a kind of empathy that leans into and just says, "I've just gotta meet you where you're at and understand." That's the whole goal, and part of the concern of these books is how do we meet people who have experienced trauma-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right, right
Sean McDowell: ... And have been victimized? But there's certainly been a shift in our culture that arguably makes the case positively about a kind of certain victimhood status that raises the question of how do you love and care for people when there's attention being paid to victimization? Hence, empathy has increased in discussion about... I think that's at least a piece of it.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay.
Sean McDowell: Why do you think there's so much discussion about this in the modern world, like right now, in the Church or outside?
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay, I mean, we talk about this in our book. Tribalism is for real.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: We, we have ample evidence that we do- we hang out with our tribes. And affective polarization means when my tribe, when there's no counter-perspective given to it, we're all of one political persuasion, we all read the Bible exactly the same, we all have theological beliefs that align, that's called groupthink. That's, that's, us. But when we talk about the other group, when there's no other group to speak in, like there's no other group to challenge our theological beliefs, our-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Our political views, affective polarization is I actually paint a much harsher picture of your group than what you really are. And so I think Americans today... Remember that we mentioned this study that 98% of Americans feel that incivility is a threat to the Republic, right? So I think today people are saying, "Okay, we gotta get out of this tribalism. We gotta start talking to each other in a way that's civil, kind, compassionate," and I think empathy is being seen as a way to open the door. So you mentioned meet a person where they're at. Well, you just described marital communication 101.
Sean McDowell: [laughing]
Tim Muehlhoff: You just described parental communication 101. As a communication professor, it's really good to meet a person where they're at and engage in empathy, as you understand everything that has led to that person's pain, struggles, hurts, hopes, fears. Uh- ... I think empathy is a way to do that. And so to have Christians now be calling it on the carpet adds to what that Yale scholar Susan Lazoni says, is empathy's being really, denigrated today in ways that I do not... I don't think is helpful.
Sean McDowell: Okay, so we'll come back to that, whether it's empathy or a misuse of empathy-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right, right
Sean McDowell: ... Is part of where this debate-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... Comes in.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep.
Sean McDowell: But maybe let's define it.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: So tell us how you as a communication scholar define empathy.
Tim Muehlhoff: So obviously, I'm biased. I'm a communication professor. We have a whole discipline. We borrow heavily from psychology. So what I'm gonna represent right now, I think, if you had one of our psych professors here, you're gonna get some version of this, right?
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: I mean, it's all over the map academically, but here's empathy as I used it in my master's thesis and when I speak at marriage conferences, right? It is the ability to recreate another person's perspective- ... To experience the world from their point of view. Like, I wanna see how you see the world before I jump in to argue how you should see the world. I first wanna understand that.
Sean McDowell: Yeah. Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: Now, we say there's three dimensions to it. The first dimension is perspective-taking. I set aside my views long enough to step in and see the world through your perspective. Second, affective means this isn't just a cognitive exercise, right? I can, I can, verbatim repeat your narrative back to you. No, I actually want to experience the narrative. I want to know the pain you feel. And maybe even my viewpoint, it's causing you a certain kind of pain. I want to know what that pain is. And then last, a genuine concern for the welfare of the other person. Now, what I think that welfare is is gonna be informed by my worldview, my perspective, right? Now, I think we get this definition in the scriptures, right? The writer of Hebrews says this. Fascinating that the writer would say, "I want you to pray for those in prison." Okay, check, done.... No, no, I want you to do it in a certain way. This is what the writer says: "Remember those in prison as if- -you were in prison." We just checked off the first aspect of empathy. I'm going to pretend and imagine I'm in prison, and then he goes on, "Remember also those being mistreated as if you felt their pain in your own body." Right? Now we got the affective part. So I don't just sit and pray for my brothers and sisters, being persecuted today. I imagine that's me, and what would be the emotions I would have if I was dragged away from my family? So now we don't just apply that to the church, we apply that to everybody. We sit down with a person, thinking about transitioning, and the first step is, "Okay, tell me what led you to this moment? What are the hopes and the fears that are driving this decision? And I wanna feel that." if we don't do it, I think we've immediately made, the conversation defensive. And the third part is what I think they're rightfully, pointing out, is, "I do care for your welfare, and I may have to say some things that is actually gonna cause you pain now that I realize what does cause you pain, but I'm doing it because of a genuine concern for your welfare spiritually, socially, politically, theologically."
Sean McDowell: Okay, so that passage in Hebrews is very interesting. It's talking about those in prison referring to brothers-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... And sisters in Christ.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right.
Sean McDowell: Right? Then you jumped and said, "So we also apply this to non-Christians in the wider culture."
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Where's the biblical precedent for that in the same way? 'Cause if I'm supposed to pray for those in prison-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... In Hebrews 13, these are my brothers- ... These are my sisters. I show empathy with them because they presumably have the same beliefs and worldview that I have, so I'm entering into their pray- into their pain, praying for them as if I was there. It's a way of loving them. Their concern is when I start doing that with people outside of the faith, that if people can be- empathy can be weaponized against us, where we can be led astray from our convictions. Now, we'll come back to that concern-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... But I'm, is there biblical precedent for showing empathy to non-Christians in the same way as you read Christians in this passage?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. I would say James, right, he's the first out of the gate saying, "Okay, we're gonna try to, like, prioritize what Jesus is saying." Okay? So he comes out and says, "Uh, this may shock you, but I think true religion on the side of God is caring for orphans and widows in distress." He didn't say Christian orphans and widows.
Sean McDowell: Agreed.
Tim Muehlhoff: He, he said, "Orphans and widows in distress." And now we know that the, historical context, we understand that women were greatly abused, and there was no welfare system for children. So he's saying, "I want you to care for these individuals." And so I think that would absolutely include, being empathetic towards them. Love your enemies. Give them food. I don't think you're able to give your enemies to your food to your enemies unless you have a certain amount of empathy towards them, otherwise that is a ridiculous command in the Scripture. Like, I'm not giving food to my enemies. I'm just not doing that.
Sean McDowell: Well-
Tim Muehlhoff: So it's interesting that you kind of put it on me. I would counter and say, "W- where do you... Why do you think the writer of Hebrews is just restricting that to Christians?"
Sean McDowell: Oh, I don't know the answer to that.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: I'm just saying there was a jump from, "Here's exactly what it says for brothers and sisters in Christ. Feel their pain-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... As if you were there."
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: "Therefore, we should extend it." Yes, it says, "Feed the poor." Yes, it says, "Love them." Yes, it says, "Care for orphans," but with the same language that spells it out with such clarity. I'm not saying that means it's wrong not to do so.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right.
Sean McDowell: I just don't know that I see the biblical precedent in the same way, and maybe there's passages we're not thinking of, but that seems somewhat of a jump to me, unless we can think of one-
Tim Muehlhoff: See-
Sean McDowell: ... In the same fashion.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay, that's fair. But, see, this is where I think general revelation and special revelation have to complement each other, right? Paul- I teach persuasion class.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: Paul says, "Knowing the fear of the Lord, seek to persuade men." He doesn't necessarily tell you how to do it. Now, we get an example of him-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Tim Muehlhoff: ... On Mars Hill.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: We, we get him in action-
Sean McDowell: Yeah
Tim Muehlhoff: ... But it's not that Paul is saying, "Okay, here are the five steps to persuade people." We're, we're gonna have to glean that, right? But we have persuasion theory. Like, he says, "Love your neighbor," but, [lips smack] we can borrow from psychology, we can borrow from communication theory to know what entails loving a person. That's his general revelation, and I think we get a robust example of what love looks like a- from having empathy, perspective-taking. [lips smack]
Tim Muehlhoff: I... Well, we did a whole chapter in our book on perspective-taking.
Sean McDowell: We did, yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: I think it's everywhere.
Sean McDowell: I think there's value in that.
Tim Muehlhoff: It's, it's everywhere. It's, it's,
Tim Muehlhoff: "Abraham, I want you to sacrifice your son." And, and the whole purpose of writing that, from a rhetorical perspective, is the reader is supposed to say, "How can a father sacrifice his son? Like, how is that- ... Even possible?" Well, Abraham didn't sacrifice his son, but God did. So I think a perspective-taking is everywhere throughout the Scriptures, where Jesus says, "Okay, you wanna know what God's love like? Imagine you're a woman who lost a coin. Imagine, do you tear up the whole house trying to find it? A shepherd loses a sheep. I want you to imagine what that would feel like." Right?
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Perspective-taking is the undercurrent theme, and empathy, I think, throughout, the New Testament, and I would say even the Old Testament. So it's there. I-... Now, what Ri- what these guys are talking about is they are saying, if my understanding is correct, they would buy points one and two. Both, both,
Sean McDowell: Rigney. Same, same
Tim Muehlhoff: ... And, Stuckey would say empathy is perspective taking, and empathy is affective. They're saying-
Sean McDowell: Agreed.
Tim Muehlhoff: They have- they're calling into question number three, saying, "When I do one and two with toxic empathy, I no longer have a genuine concern for you. I simply adopt your concerns." Like, I don't bring in how I think you should rise above what you're experiencing. I'm so enmeshed in you by doing one and two, that I no longer offer, I don't call into question your sexuality because I'm so empathizing with you, connecting with you. I would never want to hurt your feelings by bringing in a perspective I know will hurt your feelings, and that's what, Rigney calls untethered empathy, and that's what she calls toxic empathy.
Sean McDowell: Okay, so he's, he says he's not so concerned with the definition of empathy- ... But with its practice.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay, can we-
Sean McDowell: And as far as I can tell, he pulls out how there's no agreed upon definition, and there's a lot of different ways of approaching it.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Like, fair enough-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Insofar as it goes. There's the cognitive understanding it's often defined as, mentally, you talked about.
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: There's the affective, feeling what somebody feels.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: And then finally, empathy may refer not to sharing the same emotion as another person, but instead to the warm feelings we have for those in distress.
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Warm feeling for those in distress. His concern seems to be, not just empathy per se, and we'll come back to the title, 'cause it says The Sin of Empathy-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... But a kind of untethered empathy. So he draws this distinction between empathy and between sympathy.
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: And it is interesting how he gives some biblical passages, how in Hebrews 4:15, we have a high priest who sympathizes with us-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... Was shifted to empathy, I think, in the NIV. Like, why is there that shift?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: What does that tell us?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: That, that's a really interesting point. The... What he draws out is he kind of, empathy is to feel with another. Here's what he say. He says, "Empathy..." So I will use sympathy and compassion interchangeably.
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: "Empathy, on the other hand, means suffering in."
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Sympathy is suffering with; empathy is suffering in.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: So the distinction he seems to draw is, I can enter into your pain, understand it mentally and emotionally, but there's still a distance between us as individuals. So it's like somebody in a pit. He would say, "You don't jump in the pit with them. You still stay with one foot on the ground, so you can then pull the person out of it." So he's not concerned that we understand how somebody sees the world, how they feel the world, perspective taking. But when we empathize so much with somebody that we lose that distance, that we're unable to actually help them in their pain.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. Number three.
Sean McDowell: Which is number three.
Tim Muehlhoff: Genuine concern for the welfare of the other person. Yeah, and I say to him, "Amen." Yeah, amen. If all I do is one and two, I do perspective taking, and I feel your pain, which I think is a really noble thing, one of the questions we could ask is empathy a virtue? And I would say- ... Absolutely, it's a virtue. To be an empathetic person is a virtuous thing. So yeah, I'm, I'm with him, okay? But
Tim Muehlhoff: he's wanting to say that today, most people are using empathy in a weaponized way, where I jump into the pit, and once I'm in the pit, I never discuss how to get out, get out of the pit. Okay? That's untethered empathy.
Sean McDowell: Right, that's his, that's his concern.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: And I'm just saying, "Okay, make your case."
Sean McDowell: Okay, so let's come back to whether he makes the case or not.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: But I don't think he and Stuckey would call empathy a virtue.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay.
Sean McDowell: I think they distinctly say it's not, and this is actually one of the most eye-opening, interesting things to me that they drew out-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... Is that empathy is an emotion that you have with somebody, right?
Tim Muehlhoff: Sure.
Sean McDowell: It's, it's an emotion and experience you have, which is not necessarily in itself good or bad. It's how and when we use empathy, right? Like anger in itself is not good or bad. You should be angry at the right things-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And not angry at the-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... Wrong things, and it takes some self-control to apply anger appropriately. So empathy in itself, if that's true, is not a virtue.
Tim Muehlhoff: Define virtue.
Sean McDowell: Right?
Tim Muehlhoff: Give me a definition of virtue.
Sean McDowell: Oh, gosh. I mean, why do I have to define it? We know it, like virtue of, say, kindness would be a virtue, or justice might be a virtue.
Tim Muehlhoff: So, so you're saying kindness is a virtue, but empathy isn't?
Sean McDowell: I think on their understanding-
Tim Muehlhoff: Tell me why kindness-
Sean McDowell: Well, kindness is-
Tim Muehlhoff: Fits in, and empathy doesn't.
Sean McDowell: Kindness is the way we treat somebody, right? It's a way we treat somebody-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... As an individual. Empathy is entering into emotions. That depends upon how we do it, whether it's kind or loving or not, I think is the distinction that they make.
Tim Muehlhoff: See, I think Carl Rogers would disagree with that. I mean, we can't talk about-
Sean McDowell: I don't even know who Carl Rogers is. [chuckles]
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, okay. He's... Oh, okay. [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: You said it like I know who this guy is. [chuckles]
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, I'm sorry! Yeah, Carl Rogers is one of the founding fathers of empathetic listening, right? So he's the-
Sean McDowell: Is he a psychologist?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, he's a psychologist.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: And he's the one who came up with, an empathetic stance towards a person. Now, by the way, I actually wrote down his definition because it opens the door a little bit for their concern.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: His definition of empathy.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, so tell me his definition.
Tim Muehlhoff: Which is-
Sean McDowell: Yeah, on here.
Tim Muehlhoff: So this is what he would say. Rogers would say, "Entering the private perceptual world of the other and becoming thoroughly at home in it."... Okay? "To be with another this way means that for the time being, you lay aside your own views and values in order to enter another's world without prejudice." Yeah, I'd sign off on that. I can't enter into your perspective, and I'm already so prejudicial that nothing you could say would ever move the needle on my part. That- I don't think that's a conversation. That's a two dialogues going at each other if I'm saying, "Virtually nothing you can say will ever make a difference in how I view the world."
Sean McDowell: Well, I feel that way about a neo-Nazi. I know we've had this conversation before-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... But that's why it has to be applied, not just endlessly being empathetic-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, that-
Sean McDowell: Within itself is good.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes. Yeah. I agree.
Sean McDowell: Right?
Tim Muehlhoff: I agree.
Sean McDowell: I'm not gonna be empathetic towards a child molester. There's nothing they could say to convince me that's okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: No, but you-
Sean McDowell: So I think that's back towards-
Tim Muehlhoff: But Sean, you'd be empathetic-
Sean McDowell: How we use it and apply it.
Tim Muehlhoff: You'd be empathetic towards a child molester if you were trying to lead them to the Lord.
Sean McDowell: So I would be empathetic towards an individual and a human being.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: And the question is, how are you empathetic towards an individual? But I think the way it was framed is towards the view and the perspective of what somebody holds. I guess I'm interested in knowing why people view a cert- the world a certain way, and maybe why they wanna justify it.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: But I'm not gonna try to enter into that as an act of love towards that person, [chuckles] would you?
Tim Muehlhoff: You wouldn't enter into... So a child molester, right?
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: He absolutely is getting prosecuted to the full extent of the law, right? I mean, we both would agree on that. Okay, but then that person is released. They've done their time. There's actually a very famous Kevin Bacon movie where he does- ... His time, and the rest of his life, there's a certain amount of, distance a registered sex offender has to... He can't, he cannot live near an elementary school, a high school ever again. He has to register as a sex offender every single... But he's out of prison. He did his debt to society, and now everybody treats him as a pariah. Okay? So I want to love a child molester, right? I think I'm called to do that. Now, that's gonna be hard because every bone in my body-
Sean McDowell: Agreed
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Is gonna be... I'm a father of three sons, right?
Sean McDowell: Sure.
Tim Muehlhoff: But I'm called to love him, so I better understand... This is called bricolage. We actually talked about this-
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm
Tim Muehlhoff: ... In our book. I wanna know your, the pains of your life that led you to this point that you molested a child. Like, help me understand what's happened in your background, the powerful emotions you feel as you did that molesting, because I do want to help you. I do want to bring you back into society. I want to bring you back into this church. So to approach that person, I want to be empathetic as I understand your hurts and pains, is a virtuous thing, which makes it a... It's a virtual- virtuous way of approaching a person. I think anything we say of kindness is gonna get applied to empathy. I can't, in my mind, see any distinction between kindness and empathy if we apply all three facets of that definition of empathy.
Sean McDowell: Okay. So yes, we're called to love child molesters. I think there's a difference between somebody out of prison who wants help and to get healed, versus someone who goes, "Yeah, I have no problem with this. This is fine. I wanna get away with it." Am I gonna empathetically step into that person's worldview and see where they're coming from? That feels like a very different conversation than the person who's treated as a pariah, did his time, even though it's an open question if somebody who's sexually abused kids has ever done their time. [chuckles] That's a separate issue.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay.
Sean McDowell: But at least publicly, it has been done, so treating that person as a pariah versus somebody who goes, "Yeah, enter into the mind frame of a neo-Nazi." I'm curious from the outside how they got there and why they think that way. But I'm not interested in stepping into the emotions of that person in the way that you described it with the child molester, unless this person's like, "Hey, I hold these beliefs. I wanna change. I'm open to it. Help me." Then I go, "Okay, let's explore. Let's do the backstory here and help you get rid of these." It just... It feels like a different kind... So my point would be, empathy has to be... In itself is not necessarily good or bad, it's how we use it and the way we enter into it out of love for somebody. So you framed it like, "I wanna love this person."
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: What does empathy look like to love that person?
Tim Muehlhoff: Right.
Sean McDowell: Love is guiding how we use empathy.
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Empathy in itself-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... Still has to be framed in a way that's loving. I guess that's the distinction I would make, but sounds like you differ. Do you differ with that?
Tim Muehlhoff: Well, I would say it's all, it's all three of those, right? If I'm, if I'm talking to a person whose life, in my worldview, is sin, like, "Dude, what you're doing is, I'm having a really hard time understanding- ... How a person could hate another person that way, or take advantage of i- an innocent child. I'm really struggling to understand this, but I want to. I want to understand your perspective. I want to feel the emotions behind it, and then I'm gonna present the gospel, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna argue against your position 'cause I generally care about you." I think all three of those is what we would say is an empathetic response to a person, and my biggest qualm about these two authors is they get the tone wrong. They have an argument, but then how they treat people within their books, I think, is not empathetic. I- they're arguing for a positive empathy, but then they fail to actually show it in their books, and I have a couple examples from both of their books we can actually get to if you want to. But I think as Christians-
Sean McDowell: Sounds like you wanna get there. [laughing]
Tim Muehlhoff: Well... [laughing] But, you know, with the Windsor Convention Project-
Sean McDowell: I'm just kidding. [laughing]
Tim Muehlhoff: ... We can't separate content from tone.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: I don't, I don't think it's done in the scriptures.
Sean McDowell: ... Okay, all right.
Tim Muehlhoff: See what I mean?
Sean McDowell: So let's, let's come back to that. I-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... If we can. If- that's important. A couple thing, ways they frame this are helpful. So here's what he s- he says at the beginning of his book. He says, "Perhaps the simplest way to introduce the subject, the sin of empathy, is through two sets of biblical passages." Gives passages like Isaiah 49, about how God is just empathetic. "The Lord is a compassionate-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And gracious God." So that's built into God's character. Then goes to Deuteronomy 13, and says, "When somebody says, 'Let us go serve other gods,' you shall nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him, but you shall kill him," [chuckles] which is pretty drastic under the covenant, the Old Testament covenant.
Tim Muehlhoff: [laughs]
Sean McDowell: I get that.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep.
Sean McDowell: He said, "In this passage, we are forbidden to show pity or compassion to those who would entice us to idolatry." Now, it's a little different when we say "we" today-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... Outside of that covenant-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes, very much so
Sean McDowell: ... Versus the covenant they were under.
Tim Muehlhoff: Very much so.
Sean McDowell: But I think the point that he's making is that there might- there seems to be a limitation to empathy and compassion when somebody is blatantly pushing towards evil. It might not be the loving thing to show compassion to that kind of behavior. That's how he introduces this. So he says, "We're to be characterized by tender heart of compassion and pity, like God, yet there are times when pity and compassion are strictly and absolutely forbidden." Do you disagree with that in principle?
Tim Muehlhoff: [sighs] The forbidden part is interesting. And is anybody beyond Christian compassion? What would you say? Is anybody beyond Christian compassion?
Sean McDowell: Well, I think even he would say no-
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay
Sean McDowell: ... Christian compassion.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. Okay, good.
Sean McDowell: But not empathy the way he defines it.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay.
Sean McDowell: So yeah, and sometimes the compassionate thing to do is actually, you know, not just to listen and show kindness and love, but, like, arguably, like the death penalty is the compassionate thing to do. It's not one or the other, arguably.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, I agr... No, I agree, truth and love.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: We're speaking truth-
Sean McDowell: We can't separate them
Tim Muehlhoff: ... And love, and I think there's no enemy that is beyond the love, compassion of the gospel, no enemy. Child molesters, you p- you pick-
Sean McDowell: I agree
Tim Muehlhoff: ... The worst-case scenario, Jesus is gonna say the Father ran to him. Right? I mean, that's what the Prodigal Son narrative is about, is I'll pick the worst-case scenario in Jewish culture, and what did the father do? He ran to the son, right? So anybody can come back to God. Those, that door is- ... Always open.
Sean McDowell: 100%.
Tim Muehlhoff: But understand, you have a God who's also a righteous God, who's gonna judge. And so I think the Church, yeah, we call out people. We, we take a firm stance, even in public, and there are certain political positions we feel like we're not gonna yield on, moral positions.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: But what is different about our communication, Sean? That's what I've been asking people- ... Today, and I would love to- I'd love for you to answer that question. What is different about a Christian communicator than the vitriol that we see today? Like, what should mark us as being different?
Sean McDowell: [lips smack] That's a big question-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep
Sean McDowell: ... That I think could potentially take us aside. I think the bottom line is we have to communicate in content and the means by which we communicate-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep
Sean McDowell: ... That line up with the example of Jesus and Scripture. And there's... This is really where the debate is, I think, because I hear people saying things like... I got tagged on Twitter yesterday. I posted a comment to, or my team posted a quick video when a student asked me, "How do I respond to somebody with, who wants to use a preferred pronoun?" And I began with saying, "Try to lean in, try to understand- ... Build common ground." It was, like, a one-minute clip, and the response was like, "This encapsulates all of Sean's position and all we're supposed to do."
Tim Muehlhoff: Right, right.
Sean McDowell: "The time for kindness and bridge-building is done."
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes.
Sean McDowell: And I'm like, "Okay, first off, it's a one-minute clip to a high school kid who's trying to figure out how to talk to his classmate. Like, you're reading way too much-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep, yep
Sean McDowell: ... Into this."
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Which is a part of the poor communication, to answer your question, that takes place in our culture today.
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: But there is, there's a prophetic voice in Scripture-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... To call out sin-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... Within the Church-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep
Sean McDowell: ... And outside.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep.
Sean McDowell: And there's a compassionate way to approach things.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yep.
Sean McDowell: There's kindness and truth. We can't separate it, and there's a lot of people right now who just feel like the time for just bridge-building and compassion is done. We have been... Empathy has been weaponized against Christians because Christians are nat- necessarily compassionate. We care about loving our neighbors. We're kind-hearted as a whole, and it's been used by our culture to get us to adopt certain views on a range of issues, and Christians have fallen for this. That's the concern.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay, but-
Sean McDowell: So-
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Sean, what concerns me about... And, and I agree, you know I agree with almost everything you just said. But to say Christians have fallen for this, I wanna say, "Okay, I'm open to that. Like, I'm not naive to that. Make your argument." I think neither makes their argument. I mean, Stuckey talks about the masses have been duped by this. I c- I can go to a Stanford study right now, 2024, where they took common Americans, gave them a blank piece of paper, said, "Define empathy. Go. We're not, we're not giving you any prompts whatsoever. Define empathy," and then they did a thematic analysis, and by and large, Americans did a really good job of having a very centered view of empathy that did not show signs of toxic-... Empathy. And this is a Stanford study, so I'm not- I'm open to their argument. I don't think they've made it, and I think they argue against themselves. And I, and I would love to point out two parts in that both of these books that I think just violate, speaking truth and love. I would use that strong of a word. Can I see those real quick?
Sean McDowell: Sure.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: So very quickly, we could do a whole podcast on this, but I would, I would identify as a Christian feminist. Without a doubt, I would, define myself as a Christian feminist. I've written essays on this, because there's three waves of feminism. See, that's just what-
Sean McDowell: There's like a fourth wave of feminism [chuckles] now at least.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right. Well, but there's at least three.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: And so the first wave of feminism was asking a very important question: Are women human?
Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.
Tim Muehlhoff: Now, we take that for granted today. We're like, "Well, I hope the answer is yes."
Sean McDowell: Sure.
Tim Muehlhoff: But I can take you right now with a group that I'm on the board, we can go to parts of Congo, where that question is being answered right now, and that question is up for debate, whether women are fully human as men are. So, first-wave feminists were Christians. A lot of them were ardent Christians. Second-wave feminism asked questions like, "If a woman does the same work as a man, she should be paid what a man gets paid." And I think now we look at that and go, "I, yeah, I think the answer to that is yes." Can a woman be the President of the United States? Well, it wasn't until 1920 they got the right to vote.
Sean McDowell: Sure.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right? So I'm at least a first, second wave. Maybe the last end of the second wave, I'm having issues with-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Pro-life. I'm, I'm sorry, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, right? I'm jumping ship. And then third wave is the radical third wave, but understand it's the third wave. It's not all of feminism. So when he writes a chapter, "Feminism: The Queen of Woke," there is literally no nuance in the chapter. He has demonized feminism, and he does that all over the place. He, he's also- ... Very active on social media. I have some examples of him responding to certain things very quickly.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: And I think, I think when we write our books, we ought to be charitable, to say, "Listen, feminism has done many good things." Feminism, has furthered the kingdom of God in many different ways, and you would have to say Jesus is a first-wave feminist. I'd make that argument all day long. I think James is saying, "True religion is the sight of God caring for orphans and widows." I think that's the first wave of feminism.
Sean McDowell: Amen.
Tim Muehlhoff: When he writes a chapter, "Feminism: The Queen of Woke," there's no nuance, and there's no empathy towards feminists, right?
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: And so when-
Sean McDowell: Okay, so let's... If we can, let's, let's take one at a time.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, okay.
Sean McDowell: So he writes... This is kind of the heart of my question here. He's got a line in here, and I should have written what page it's on, 'cause I wanna quote him accurately, where he says basically that kind of the progressive gaze is the biggest concern for Christian faithfulness today.
Tim Muehlhoff: That's his longest chapter, actually.
Sean McDowell: Oh, here it is.
Tim Muehlhoff: It's his longest-
Sean McDowell: It's the longest chapter
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Chapter, yeah.
Sean McDowell: Okay. "In American culture in the 21st century, it is the progressive gaze that poses the greatest threat to Christian faithfulness." So the progressive gaze is this imaginary progressive friend that Christians maybe bow to in how they communicate and how they talk, for fear of offending this person and pleasing this person.
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: Maybe this is someone who writes for The New York Times or has some culturally elite position, and so Christians have bowed down to this rather than speaking truth prophetically today. And one of the main weapons, this word is used, from the progressive side, is kind of manipulating empathy, and Christians have given in to this. So that's- I hope I represent it fairly, but that's his argument. It sounds like you're saying you have... Well, I won't put words in your mouth. The, the bigger question is this the greatest threat and the biggest threat we should be concerned about, or a lack of empathy towards outsiders and other Christians that we are not portraying, biblically speaking-
Tim Muehlhoff: Wow, yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Because you seem to be concerned with the rhetoric as you analyze it here as a communication professor, and your concern is more the lack of empathy. And so he picks on the word winsome in there a few times.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, yeah.
Sean McDowell: Like, this is a word-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, yeah
Sean McDowell: ... That's become negative in certain-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... Circles.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right.
Sean McDowell: We're trying to be winsome. We're trying to be liked. We're trying to soften things down, is the way it's often characterized. You're the head of the Winsome Conversations [chuckles] project, so I'm sure you read this at times and were like-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... "Wait a minute, is this about me or what I do?" So I wonder, like, what's a bigger issue, or is it both? Now, I have opinions on this, but what do you think?
Tim Muehlhoff: So, the co-director... I'm bringing more people onto my ship-
Sean McDowell: [laughs]
Tim Muehlhoff: ... 'cause it's not just me. The co-director, Rick Langer-
Sean McDowell: Fair enough
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Wrote a brilliant piece in the Christian Scholar's Review, "Is Gentleness Optional?" Like, like, let's say it's rhe- Sean, let's say it's rhetorically not effective. Like, being gentle in today's politics flat-out doesn't work, so the Christians say, "Well, then I'm not gonna be gentle. It's optional. I'm only gonna use it if it works for me rhetorically." No, he makes the argument in this beautiful essay, gentleness is not optional. Peter goes as far as to say this in 1 Peter 3:9: "When insulted, I do not want you to insult. I want you to bless. I want you to bless." And we're like, "Okay, that's not gonna work in today's climate." Yeah, well, that's-... M- gentleness isn't something we discard because we don't feel like it's working. I don't get a gentleness feeling from either of these authors when they go to the very people we should be in dialogue with. So the progressive gray, gays? Yeah, I went to UNC Chapel Hill. I can name scholar after scholar that probably would fit in that definition, but I'm called- ... To love them. I'm called to engage them. I'm called to disagree with them, as Peter says, "With all gentleness and reverence," and I don't get the gentleness, reverence part when I read either of, either of these books. I don't get the tone, even if I might agree with parts of their argument-
Sean McDowell: Okay, so-
Tim Muehlhoff: ... I don't get the tone.
Sean McDowell: So do you- so fair enough. And they're not here to defend themselves and-
Tim Muehlhoff: But, but-
Sean McDowell: ... Make their case.
Tim Muehlhoff: But which one do you think is the great-
Sean McDowell: Well, so-
Tim Muehlhoff: What would you say?
Sean McDowell: I've actually thought about this a good amount, because I think both of them make a very fair point in terms of one of the ways to try to convince Christians to hold certain cultural views, and ethical views, and political views is empathy and compassion, and it's often one-sided, not both.
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, yeah.
Sean McDowell: I think that happens-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And I think they're putting their finger on this, and that's always been an issue. I mean, they both talk about, in varying degrees, how back to Aristotle, ethos, you know-
Tim Muehlhoff: Logos
Sean McDowell: ... Logos-
Tim Muehlhoff: Pathos
Sean McDowell: ... And pathos.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Emotion. So it's nothing new-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... But it's been, it seems to have exploded in recent times, especially since COVID. There's been so many arguments like, "You're not compassionate. You don't love Jesus if you don't hold this view, and we're gonna shame you." Like, it's-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... Heightened a lot, so I think they're onto something with that-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... And right to draw Christian attention to say, "Wait a minute, why do we hold the views that we hold? What's the inconsistency here? How is empathy weaponized?" And of course, anger can be weaponized-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes
Sean McDowell: ... Right?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes.
Sean McDowell: We're susceptible to anger.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: When somebody's angry, it gets our attention. But it seems to be there's something pressing in our cultural moment that they put their finger on. So I pause and I go, "How many times have I been, you know, shamed or manipulated into any kind of position-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... 'cause I have to be the most compassionate to hold this?" They've really made me think about that a lot, and I don't always know the boundary in my life between how am I being appropriately compassionate and empathetic-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... And standing on truth. I don't have that figured out, but they've pushed me in the direction of saying empathy always has to be built in Scripture. But with that said, I do have a lot of friends who are not Christians, who look at the Christian world, and they're like, "The way you guys talk, and the way you-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Treat each other, and the way you communicate," I'm not even talking about these books, I'm saying as a whole, is unbecoming of a follower of Jesus. And this is back to your question.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Are we... Earlier, you asked me about how Christians should communicate today.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: And of course, it's the content, but it's the means by which we communicate. So online, I look at a ton of people, and it's just as provocative as everybody else to get views. "I attack somebody's character to sell books. I misrepresent a position." Like, I see these things happening all the time. In fact, actually, [chuckles] I think it was on our conversation on pronouns, that there was a... Trying to model for people, here's two Christians-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... And we differ pretty strongly on this and have convictions, but-
Tim Muehlhoff: On the pronoun issue. Yeah, yeah.
Sean McDowell: On the pronoun issue-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... But there's love and respect for you and I that goes [chuckles] way deep. There were some comments of people, I believe it's on that video, they're like, "Just watching these Christians and the way they treat each other is ridiculousl- is ridiculous, and just affirms that I-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Don't want anything to do with their camp." Like comments on YouTube, I think it was there, or emails that I got, of watching the oth- not the way we treat each other-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... The other comments of people-
Tim Muehlhoff: How they were responding-
Sean McDowell: ... Attacking you
Tim Muehlhoff: ... To the comments.
Sean McDowell: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes. Oh, I agree.
Sean McDowell: The comments. Not you and I.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, yeah.
Sean McDowell: Nobody critiqued that.
Tim Muehlhoff: No, I agree.
Sean McDowell: There was a ton of comments. I'm thinking, we're not thinking about how we communicate. So to me, I think it's both. We can't lose the gentleness.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right.
Sean McDowell: I think Dallas Willard-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... The allure-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right
Sean McDowell: ... Of gentleness.
Tim Muehlhoff: Tim Keller.
Sean McDowell: In fact, while you're right, it doesn't work always politically, I think it gives people pause when we don't buy into the outrage culture.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right.
Sean McDowell: We actually forgive instead of cancel. People stop and they're like, "Why are you different? Why don't you play this game?"
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell: So I don't know how to judge what's more than the other. I mean, when he says, "This is the greatest threat to Christian faithfulness," that strikes me as way oversold.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: I mean, more than pornography and how that devastates-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Churches, more than biblical illiteracy? I mean, in some ways, this concern about untethered, uh-
Tim Muehlhoff: Empathy
Sean McDowell: ... Untethered empathy would not be an issue if we had biblical literacy and authority in the Church. Then we'd stay tethered.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: But we don't. So this is almost highlighting what some of the deeper issues are. So I don't know how to judge that, but I think there's some truth in both.
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, I totally think there's truth in both of these books. I think it's a good, timely word that empathy, like any virtue, can be weaponized. Pick any virtue, it can be weaponized. So I'm actually, I wanted to tell you this before we started rolling, but I'm actually signing a contract for a new book.
Sean McDowell: Good.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, it's called The Sin of Listening, is the book. I'm gonna write a book called The Sin of Listening.
Sean McDowell: No, you're not. [chuckles]
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes, I am.
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, I'm- it's gonna be called The Sin of Listening.
Sean McDowell: Are you serious, or are you pulling my chain? [chuckles] Whatever.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay, look, that's my problem with his tactic.
Sean McDowell: [chuckles]
Tim Muehlhoff: Could I write- actually write a book-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Tim Muehlhoff: ... The Sin of Listening? The answer is yes, because can listening be misused? The answer is yes. If all I do is listen to you-
Sean McDowell: Okay. Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: If all I do is listen to you, I never push back, all I do is affirm, condone, I'd say, "Man, you've taken listening and made it something that I don't think it was meant to be," so I'd call it the sin of listening. Now, the minute you read the book, you go, "Okay, that- "... You're not talking about it that way. His, title- He has to have an appendix to justify- How many of your books, Sean, do you have an appendix to justify the overwhelming pushback he's gotten on his title? How many of your books you felt the need to write an appendix to justify your title?
Sean McDowell: Obviously, the answer is zero on that one. That's a fair question.
Tim Muehlhoff: This gets us-
Sean McDowell: So-
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Off on the wrong foot immediately when I say- 'cause what was your reaction to my book, The Sin of Listening? You were like, "Stop it." I would say the same reaction many of us have towards that title is The Sin of Empathy? One of the most-
Sean McDowell: Okay
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Established cognitive, psychological, practices that is ve- held in very much esteem today- ... Is we're- he's going after the sin of empathy? Now, the book should be called, in all fairness, and I think he'd agree with this, The Sin of Untending-
Sean McDowell: Untethered Empathy.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay.
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: But he- you know why it's not on the cover.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: As much as anybody, you know why it's not there.
Sean McDowell: So, and it, this gets more into, like-
Tim Muehlhoff: That doesn't trouble you?
Sean McDowell: Is... Oh, I didn't say it doesn't trouble me at all. That was my point. I was trying to steel man his position, but this more gets into the question of, like, what's an appropriate title and not an appropriate title to provoke and sell books? So if you s- you write a book, The Sin of Listening, you will sell more books. Does that justify a certain title? I'm not saying it does. I'm saying that's, that's a piece of it.
Tim Muehlhoff: I'll only sell more books-
Sean McDowell: No,
Tim Muehlhoff: ... In a certain population. I'll only sell more books in a certain, demographic. I'll lose people in another demographic.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's, that's a fair point.
Tim Muehlhoff: And so I think-
Sean McDowell: I think, I think you're right
Tim Muehlhoff: ... He is playing to the base that is already- ... Convinced, this is... Empathy's been weaponized. He, he- to me, he's speaking to his tribe, right? And he's firing up the tribe- ... That the greatest threat to the history of the church, the progressive gaze, and the misuse of empathy is the greatest threat. I think, this is not a good attempt to lower the temperature in our disagreements, among Americans today and even among church members. I don't think this is-
Sean McDowell: I-
Tim Muehlhoff: ... A good attempt to do that.
Sean McDowell: I see your point. So he's not writing to convince progressives to not use this as a weapon. He's not writing to non-Christians. He's firing up his base. There's a time and place to do that.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, I would agree.
Sean McDowell: But you would say the way it's done should be different. The language and the title is what concerns you to make that point, rather than contributing to the divisive culture.
Tim Muehlhoff: And I think-
Sean McDowell: Is-
Tim Muehlhoff: What does Jesus say?
Sean McDowell: Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: "Blessed are the peacemakers."
Sean McDowell: So I think-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right?
Sean McDowell: I... So I actually, I think I probably agree with you on the title, just for the record. I mean, he's, he's, he's saying, "We'd actually understand the phrase, if I called a book The Sin of Anger, to mean sinful anger."
Tim Muehlhoff: [chuckles] Whoa.
Sean McDowell: "We need to actually read the article to determine whether we... Were clear definitions and proper distinctions made." And he says, for example, there's a book, When Helping Hurts, but it doesn't say the sin of helping. That would be a different title, right?
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay, but read a couple more of these titles in the appendix.
Sean McDowell: Or Toxic Charity is like toxic empathy.
Tim Muehlhoff: And I give her-
Sean McDowell: Charity can be good.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes.
Sean McDowell: So her title is very clear.
Tim Muehlhoff: I give her kudos for putting the word toxic in front of empathy.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, and she makes it clear who she's writing to and who her audience is. This one is the sin of empathy itself. Now, I- with that said, my only other critique is there's some people who've said, "Ah, he's saying sin is empathy." I'm like, "Actually read his book before you conclude that," because titles are meant to be provocative. We all know that. So I would take some issue with the title. Like you, I think those are fair concerns you're raising, but I think people shouldn't just look at the title and say, "He's saying sin is an empathy," or, "He's saying [chuckles] empathy is a sin." [chuckles]
Tim Muehlhoff: [chuckles]
Sean McDowell: You know what I mean. They need to actually read it-
Tim Muehlhoff: Right, but he runs-
Sean McDowell: ... And actually engage his ideas.
Tim Muehlhoff: He is willing to take that risk, that people will judge a book by its cover. He's willing to take the risk, that people are gonna look at that cover, and some are gonna say, "Get out of here." The,
Sean McDowell: Now, listen, I-
Tim Muehlhoff: Your reaction to the sin of listening was perfect.
Sean McDowell: Okay, so I agree with you on people who see it on the shelf, or it pops up on Amazon. I'm talking about people who have reviewed it and done podcasts and misrepresented him. I think that's ridiculous.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right, I agree.
Sean McDowell: That's where it gets crazy.
Tim Muehlhoff: He dispels that-
Sean McDowell: So
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Pretty quick in his book.
Sean McDowell: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: And she does as well. But, but can I, can I read you-
Sean McDowell: We're bumping up on-
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay
Sean McDowell: ... Time.
Tim Muehlhoff: Got it.
Sean McDowell: I don't know if there's anything else I wanted to, We talked about empathy can go wrong. I guess the final question is, he asked this question, and although you and I might differ in some of the application of it and the issue he raised-
Tim Muehlhoff: Mm-hmm
Sean McDowell: ... About feminism at the end, which we didn't go into any depth, he asked the question: "What does the compassion of Christ, the love of Christ, look like?" That's the right question.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: What do you think, Tim?
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, yeah, I mean, "Father, forgive them. They know not what they do." I mean, these are people that have crucified him, right? Go, go two miles. Don't go one, go two. Person slaps you, turn the cheek, right? I mean, what made the church grow was neighbor love, and neighbor love to the Roman Empire. When the three plagues hit the Roman Empire, mortality rates were 37%. The church literally gave their lives helping people that Romans wouldn't even help Romans. They went out into the streets and helped people with the plague, and they died in droves doing it. That is the compassion of Christ. I am willing to love you, even if you do not love me. I will seek to pursue your best-... Even if you try to shut me down, I'll open lines of communication as you try to shut down. That's the give a blessing for an insult passage from Peter. I think we're asking the wrong question. Can I be bold enough to say that? I think a huge threat to America is not toxic empathy, it's the lack of empathy. It, it's the decline of empathy that's killing us. Can I read one last quote?
Sean McDowell: Sure, yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: So I came across this quote. I was at... I'm a huge, World War II, buff, in the fact that- ... Talk about a world at war. A world at war!
Sean McDowell: Literally.
Tim Muehlhoff: And lit- and having to deal with each other after the war. I mean, I'm German background. I mean, it- there were some hard feelings that lasted for a long time. So one man, Gustav, Gilbert, was an American psychologist who actually went to the Nuremberg trials, and he listened to the narratives and the testimonies of these Nazi war criminals, and here is his very famous comment: "I told you once that I was searching for the nature of evil. I think I've come close to defining it." "A lack of empathy. It's the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow man. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy." I think we need to at least pause- ... And say, not, "Has my, empathy been weaponized?" Not, "Is my empathy become toxic?" But, "Do I have any empathy for the very people I'm called to love in the name of Christ? Am I part of the American empathy deficit that the, compassion, research project identified?" I think that's a better question. Before I w- before I feel like my empathy's become toxic, I should ask the hard question, "Do I even have any empathy for people who vote differently?" "Do I have any empathy for the trans community, even as I seek to present what I think is the biblical view of sexuality?" I'd rather ask the question, "Do I even have empathy for people I disagree with?"
Sean McDowell: That's a great quote. That is such a good point. We're far more likely to do evil to somebody when we don't-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Empathize, and understand, and love that person.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: Well said. So you answered the question in terms of what you think is more concerning, is the lack of empathy. I don't know that, for me, it has to be one or the other. I think in one sense, I'm playing a little bit of defense when there's cultural forces that are changing within the church and in my own life. How do I not be changed and arguably manipulated by- ... An appeal to empathy that's toxic or misguided, that's not rooted in scripture? That really concerns me-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... Especially with young people in the church, who are getting far more persuaded by stories, and by experiences, and by an appeal to empathy than by truth. That concerns me, you might say, defensively. But offensively, in terms of our engagement in the world- ... I think you're right, that w- do we really have empathy, and love, and care for people who are our neighbors, and care for them, and enter into their pain?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Sean McDowell: I mean, a question I ask myself a lot, and I'll end with this, is, you know, what if we got to the point in culture where somebody just says, "My life is upside down. It's a wreck financially, emotionally. I need to find a Christian, because a Christian would understand and genuinely help me"? Are we there, Tim? The answer is no. That's what motivates me. So I don't think it's one or the other, it's both-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... And I think we need to do hard work-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah
Sean McDowell: ... In both of those lanes, individually and collectively. Good stuff, man.
Tim Muehlhoff: Hey, I love these conversations.
Sean McDowell: Always enjoy your pushback.
Tim Muehlhoff: Uh-
Sean McDowell: Always make me think in a good way.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. I feel like you sharpen me in a ton of ways.
Sean McDowell: And, I have more questions now that I'm gonna be bothered with-
Tim Muehlhoff: [laughing]
Sean McDowell: ... Which is good, because I'm gonna have to go back and look at that passage in Hebrews and rethink these definitions. But love you, brother.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, love you too, Sean.
Sean McDowell: Wonderful conversation. Thanks for joining this.
Tim Muehlhoff: Thanks for all you do, man.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, this was fun. Enjoyed writing that book with you, and for those of you watching, this is a special episode of the Think Biblically podcast, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Make sure you hit subscribe, whether on the audio podcast or here on YouTube, and we'd love to have you come study with us at Biola and Talbot. We'll see you next time. [upbeat music]
