What are some of the aspects of the human body that point to the design of God?; For example, how does the function of your eyes, lungs and even the function of your individual cells point to God as an intelligent designer? How does religious observance affect a person’s physical and mental health? We’ll answer these questions and more with our guest, Dr. Rick Zimmerman, a physician and an infectious disease and vaccine specialist at the Univ of Pittsburgh Medical School.

Dr. Rick Zimmerman is Professor in the Department of Family Medicine at the University of Pittsburgh Medical School and is affiliated with the school’s Center for Vaccine Research. He is the author of numerous publications in medical journals and has served as a consultant for the Center for Disease Control (CDC).



Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] What are some of the aspects of the human body that point to the intelligent design of God? For example, how does the function of your eyes, lungs, and even the function of your individual cells point to God as an intelligent designer? And how does religious observance affect a person's physical and mental health? We'll answer these questions and a whole lot more with our guest today, Dr. Rick Zimmerman, a physician and infectious disease and vaccine specialist at the University of Pittsburgh. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and this is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Rick, welcome. Really glad to have you with us on a, on a fascinating topic that I think our listeners are gonna be enthralled by.

Rick Zimmerman: Well, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Scott Rae: My pleasure. Now, your thesis is that medicine provides multiple signposts to an intelligent designer, such as God. In your view, and you've cite-- we'll, we'll talk about a number of these, but let's start with what you think is the best and clearest example of that from your research.

Rick Zimmerman: I think the human eye is just incredible. There's, in the back of the eye, the retina, where the images that come through the eye are processed and changed into nerve impulses, and it's not just a few cells. There's over 10 million retinal cells that have been placed there, and those then turn the images into electric signals that go through over a million optic nerve fibers to the brain. And just to understand what that requires for a single retinal nerve, that... We take 10 milliseconds of it's about 500, differential equations being solved 100 times, an immense amount of work that is being done by just a single retinal nerve cell to take those images and give you that to your brain.

Scott Rae: And the possibility of that, of all of those things coming together, sort of by chance is, you would say, infinitesimally small.

Rick Zimmerman: Yes, I think it's infinitesimally small by chance. I don't think we know exactly how-

Scott Rae: Correct

Rick Zimmerman: ... Nor the timeline. Ecclesiastes, Solomon indicates that we don't know what God has done and the wonder of it, and so I wanna be humble that I don't know the mechanism, the timing, but that it is wonderful, and it is intricate, is beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Scott Rae: Appreciate the intellectual humility, that comes with that admission. And what happens if, you know, one or more of these parts don't do their job?

Rick Zimmerman: Well, it's, if you have, for instance, a tumor that blocks the optic nerves, then you may lose, vision to one side of the eye, you may have double vision, you may not perceive the sharpness and the clarity. The eye is really-- it's, in fact, it's the only place in the body that a doctor can look through the eye and see actual nerve, processes, by looking through the eye. So it's an amazing... The control of the eye includes six muscles, for each eye, and, you know, it's easy to say, well, there's a muscle, there is a muscle to the, on the li- the outside, the lateral of the eye, that pulls the eye in that direction. But there's a muscle that kind of defies initial logic but is really important, the superior oblique muscle, that's actually got a pulley system, and it really gives us fine control, and allows us to see things. And how does a pulley system just appear in the eye?

Scott Rae: A mi- a microscopic pulley system, almost.

Rick Zimmerman: S- and- ... A very small one. And so it's, amazing to see this intricacy. Another place we see some of the intricacy is the reflexes. When you turn your head, then in the inner ear, there are

Rick Zimmerman: Sense of position sense receptors that will send information to the brain, indicating you're turning, and then that will send messages to one part of the eye muscles, one set of those muscles, and say, "Don't work, and ano-- inhibit, stop," and then to the other side, "Work," so that as you turn your head, you don't lose track of where you're at, and you're able to focus with a clear vision while turning your head. An incredible amount of work in s- gaze stabilization, as we call it.

Scott Rae: And, and all these movements we take for granted.

Rick Zimmerman: Right, they're unconscious.

Scott Rae: Hun- you know, hundreds, if not thousands of times every day.

Rick Zimmerman: Yes. Yes.

Scott Rae: Uh-

Rick Zimmerman: Amazing amount and amazing intricacy to-- so that we don't get double vision, and when people have a problem in the, either the inner ear or in some of these, nerve pathways, then we get double vision and blurred vision, and people really suffer. We're-- can be very thankful for the incredible balance and control.

Scott Rae: Now, you point out that, you know, many of the early scientists and physicians were Christians, but there were some pretty important discoveries that were made not only by unbelievers, but by folks who disdained religious belief. Okay, who were, who were some of them, and what were those discoveries? We'll get back to some of the intricacies of the body in just a minute.

Rick Zimmerman: Sure. Well, there have been many, certainly, the double helix, structure of DNA by Watson and Crick, and if you know them, they are not Bible-believing things, followers. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: I think it's fair to say that they were actually quite hostile-

Rick Zimmerman: Right

Scott Rae: ... To Christian faith.

Rick Zimmerman: And so yet they obviously discovered an important, incredibly important, um-... And I see that as part of c-common grace. God has, created the rainfalls on the just, the unjust. He provides food, for the sparrow, for the unbeliever, for the believer. Scientists who are unbelievers do find truth. They also, though, sometimes make mistakes. Their interpretive grids will point to chaos or randomness or something else than a creator, and there is a l-level of error in science and-- or lack of reproducibility. I have the fortune to run, at times, randomized trials, involving vaccines, and we often talk about our alpha and beta errors that we have. To the beginning of an experiment, we understand that we might not find the truth, twenty-five percent of the time. We expect to find it seventy-five percent, but because of chance or because of our difficulties in finding things, i-because of the number of subjects needed, we do have errors. And, that is not to say that science is wrong, but that there is a limit to what we can know, and that we have to replicate it, and we have to be careful with the certainty of how we claim, our scientific discoveries.

Scott Rae: Yeah, f-I think fair enough, but it-- I think it does give evidence to the notion of both general revelation, that God's revealed His handiwork both in His Word and in His world, and that the latter part is what you're talking about. And common grace, I take it, is the ability that God has given each human being to un-unlock what He has embedded into His creation, s-science and technology, chief among them.

Rick Zimmerman: Yes.

Scott Rae: So I think-- and part of that, part of the uncertainty, I wonder, might that be just part of, living in a fallen world, where the lenses through which we see G-God's revelation in His world may be a little clouded from time to time?

Rick Zimmerman: Well, certainly, and I think any of us should, when approaching the Scriptures or approaching, science, needs to understand that we are humans, that we are finite, that we do not have, all human knowledge, nor do we have certainly the knowledge that God has-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Rick Zimmerman: ... And the wonder of what He's created.

Scott Rae: Let's, let's look at another system. You spent a lot of time talking about how the respiratory system with our lungs, and there is a, is-- this is incredibly intricate system of controls and feedback. And the, again, the chances of this not reflecting an intelligent designer are pretty small. So tell us a little bit more about some of, some of those details.

Rick Zimmerman: Sure. Well, there are multiple feedback loops that in the brainstem, where we have the control centers for respiration, there's an automatic part, that keeps us breathing, but there's also a control system, where as the body senses there's not enough oxygen, then there'll be a signal to breathe more, or if there's too much of the waste product, carbon dioxide, we'll breathe more to handle that. And-

Scott Rae: So, so it's not, it's not an accident that when I'm, f- you know, when I'm on the, on the treadmill or the elliptical, my body just sort of automatically tells me to bre-breathe harder and faster?

Rick Zimmerman: Right. Yep. No, that's part of it, and it's, an amazing set of control systems to make sure that that balance. And also, it's-- there's protection mechanisms. We don't wanna over-, inflate, to over breathe, and potentially rupture, anything, and so there's also a limitation with stretch receptors, or inhalation receptors that say, "Hey, don't over breathe." And so there is a precise control that's occurring.

Scott Rae: Now, y-you also talked about how the lungs sort of regulate the, you know, oxygen and carbon dioxide balance-

Rick Zimmerman: Yes

Scott Rae: ... That exists in the body. Tell us a little bit about that.

Rick Zimmerman: Sure. There's r-receptors in the carotid body, in the neck, and also in the brain, that receive, information about how much oxygen, and then will-- or how much carbon dioxide, and then increase the respiratory rate or the respiratory depth or both, to accom-- to make sure there's enough oxygen to supply the body's needs. And if there's more than enough, then it can quiet those breathing. But if there's more, as on the treadmill, [chuckles] or going to, up a mountain, then our body corresponds. It's amazing. We don't have to think about that. You know, divers have to think about doing all these adjustments. Pilots have to, but for us, in the average life, we don't have to think about it. It's done for us by the work of God. Yeah.

Scott Rae: Now, you also point out that the, all the, all the membranes in the lungs, which is quite an intricate system, that actually does the real work of the lungs. W-those are the alveoli?

Rick Zimmerman: Sure.

Scott Rae: Are those called? Well, those are-- That, that seems to be a very delicate system that if it does-- if a little, if one part of it is not functioning correctly, it throws off the whole system.

Rick Zimmerman: Yes. The air sacs, the alveoli, are where the gas exchange, as our body produces carbon dioxide as a waste, there's over 100-- gas efficiency is over 100-fold, where it will decrease the, um-- take out the carbon dioxide from the blood, transfer that into the air sacs, and then we exhale it. And so a membrane, is one one-hundredth of the diameter of a human, a, hair, so very thin membrane, and across that is what the gas exchange occurs. So very efficient.

Scott Rae: And how many of these alveoli are in the lungs?

Rick Zimmerman: The, number of alveoli in the lungs are 480 million. That's the population of North America.... And so you just think about, you know, God has given me 480 million of alveoli, at least when I was younger. [chuckles] and the, if you just were to stretch those all out, those air sacs, if you could unfold them, they would go to about 600 square feet, the size of a two-car garage-

Scott Rae: Right

Rick Zimmerman: -in its surface.

Scott Rae: Yeah. In, in each of our lungs.

Rick Zimmerman: In our lu- each one of us.

Scott Rae: Yes. That's, that's pretty remarkable. Now, let me, so let me raise a question here. Why, why couldn't a scheme, an evolutionary scheme without a designer account for these?

Rick Zimmerman: I wanna just say with humility that I wasn't there, so I don't know exactly how-

Scott Rae: [chuckles]

Rick Zimmerman: -or in what timeframe things are.

Scott Rae: Fair enough.

Rick Zimmerman: And so there's my disclaimer. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: I guess what I, what I'm asking is how-- why couldn't these have arisen without an in- an intelligent designer?

Rick Zimmerman: I think the control systems are so intricate, and you have, h- where did the control system start? Did it start with the receptor, or did it start with the effector, the, where the action is done? And you have these loops. Well, what part of the loop came first? And you have a chicken and the egg problem, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Scott Rae: Yes. And there's, it sounds like there's, at the cellular level at least, it requires an outside input of information in order, in order for these, you know, for these things to function in the way that they were designed. We'll get to the cellular level here in just a moment. Now, what there-- you point out at the, at the cellular level, particularly, the... This was fascinating stuff when I, when I read this, the design function of the, of the system in our cells that produces the energy that it needs to actually run and function, which has to do with our glucose production. So that struck me as being this incredibly incre- intricate system that exists, you know, not at the, not at the level of bodily organs, but, you know, at the molecular level, with, w- in the area of our cells. So tell us a little bit about that. There's a little bit more on the s- at the cellular level that I wanna get to as well.

Rick Zimmerman: Sure. Well, there's a number of enzymes that are needed to create glucose, and these enzymes have to work in a particular order, and in fact, for the production of the main sugar, glucose, that we use for running our body, there's four enzymes that are particularly unique just to the system that don't appear in other systems. And so it's a orchestration. You can't s- jump steps. You have to go through each step in order to take some of these basic building blocks up to the glucose that we use, for our cells.

Scott Rae: And if one of those steps is missing...

Rick Zimmerman: Then you've got a bottleneck, and you're gonna have much less production, of the sugar you need for life.

Scott Rae: Okay, and without that, if you go without that for too long, your s- your-

Rick Zimmerman: Cells will shut down

Scott Rae: ... Your cells-

Rick Zimmerman: Yes

Scott Rae: -cease to function.

Rick Zimmerman: Right.

Scott Rae: Now, what I think, in particular, what's the significance of the information in the DNA molecule? You pointed out that the, that there's, there's, there seems to be information that's coming from outside the system that makes DNA produce the proteins that it act- that it does, and which, is, you know, as are- as anybody in the sciences knows, those are the build- the building blocks-

Rick Zimmerman: Sure

Scott Rae: -of our function as human beings.

Rick Zimmerman: Well, some of that-

Scott Rae: I think I'm getting in a little bit over my depth here. [chuckles]

Rick Zimmerman: That's all right.

Scott Rae: So I'm trying to articulate this in a way that doesn't, uh-

Rick Zimmerman: Sure

Scott Rae: ... Doesn't overly express my ignorance of this.

Rick Zimmerman: No problem. But we do have cellular machines, and there is information that comes from the control center of the cell, the nucleus, called messenger RNA. It's a cookbook. It tells, the apparatus that makes proteins what to do, and then that is assembled into, these messenger, and they're base codes from the DNA that's made into RNA, and then the RNA tells the proteins, the amino acids, which ones to put next and which ones to put in a chain, and those chains then make proteins. Just to give you a sense, this protein apparatus, ribosomes, there are 30 trillion, trillions-

Scott Rae: Say that number again. That's w-

Rick Zimmerman: 30 trillion

Scott Rae: ... With a T?

Rick Zimmerman: With a T, trillion cells in the body, and, you know, there's up to about 10 million, ribosomes per cell, each having about 80 proteins. And you start to do the math, then you're talking 10 with 20 zeros ribosomes per human, and, you know, it's just an incredible number. Just to give you a... You know, it's hard for me to even understand a billion. A billion is a big number, you know, and you read about, that in the, debts or something, or in spending, but, 2 billion pelle, pennies, 2.1 technically, side by side, would encircle the Earth, pennies side by side. That's 2 billion. We're talking much more. We're talking 30 trillion cells in the body and then 10 to the 20 ribosomes per human, numbers much bigger than that.

Scott Rae: I can't wrap my arms around a nu-

Rick Zimmerman: Yes

Scott Rae: ... A number that size.

Rick Zimmerman: I'm not sure any human can. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: No, that's just remarkable. And again, if, you know, if the slightest, if the slightest component is out of whack, then it sabotages the whole thing.... Correct. So it's not, it's not just that we got all these parts, but they are all sort of finely tuned to work together, and if they don't, if one part is missing, then the whole suffers.

Rick Zimmerman: Right.

Scott Rae: Fair, fair enough?

Rick Zimmerman: Yes. I mean, and that's, gives, people that have problems with, creation of proteins, end up in doctor's offices. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: Yes. [chuckles] Fair, fair enough. Now, let me go, let me go back to the philosophical side just for a moment. What in your view is the prevailing worldview of medicine and the sciences today, and how does that contrast with a Christian worldview?

Rick Zimmerman: Well, I'm gonna answer that in two time periods. In my personal experience, in the first 20 years of being a professor, it was scientific materialism. Everything is determined by the functions of what happens at the atomic level, a very reductionistic look. And that-

Scott Rae: Law, law, laws of chemistry and physics-

Rick Zimmerman: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Basically.

Rick Zimmerman: And a lot of that then being assumed that what beun- underneath that was some random, chaotic scheme. I have to admit, in the more recently, I've seen a lot of rise of, postmodern, there is no truth type of thinking, in which, power rules, and so I have seen a change in academia, but I think the primary one for most of my career has been materialism.

Scott Rae: Okay. All right, and now tell me a little bit... I'm just, I'm curious about this. When you talk about some of these things that point clearly, so clearly point to a designer, and we wouldn't have to, we don't have to use God talk, but just to point to a designer, how is that by-- how is that received by some of your, you know, your colleagues in the sciences or in medicine?

Rick Zimmerman: I think the scientists have lost the sense of wonder, and there's a, an, not an appreciation for the grandeur, for the intricacy. It's, well, we have our paper, we have the computer output, we've made it into a publication. We'll now go get look after our next grant, and it's all kind of matter of fact, without the sense of, "Wow, this is incredible!" that wonder has been lost.

Scott Rae: That, that's a big loss, seem, seems to me-

Rick Zimmerman: Yes

Scott Rae: ... Because there's-

Rick Zimmerman: Huge

Scott Rae: ... There's, I think there's some- there's something that is supposed to touch our souls when we see the intricacy of what God's done in creation. And for it to be truncated like that, I think is a tragic outcome. And one of the things I so appreciate about your work on this is you are so clear about the awe and the majesty of God that that's, you know, that had the intelligence to create these systems like, that are so intricate, and so well designed to just to keep human beings functioning like we do, with all the things that need to come together and work just the way they were designed, all at the same time, or else things don't go like we want them to go.

Rick Zimmerman: No, I think we've lost the-- the wonder should be there. It is really a magnificent creation in the human, and it's not just the human, the whole universe, but the balance systems, the control systems, the wonder of what God has done, and really, the response should be worship. Look what, how great and-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Rick Zimmerman: ... You know, and if we ignore such a wonderful, [chuckles] creation, we're at our own detriment.

Scott Rae: How-- So a lot of our listeners, Rick, are-- they're not scientists, they're not physicians, and I think they, you know, I think they would approach this-- they're sort of taking it by faith-

Rick Zimmerman: Mm-hmm. Yes

Scott Rae: ... That, you know, what you're, you know, what we're, what we're talking about is true, and that the, that God deserves awe and wonder. But I don't f- I don't sense that they will feel it quite in their bones like you, like you would and other believing scientists might. How c- how can you help them feel a bit more of that sense of awe at the brilliance that, as you describe, the brilliance of our Creator?

Rick Zimmerman: Well, I think, we need to talk about it with, you know, one another, to share the wonders, of the scientific realm. There's even in secular publications, you can see the beautiful pictures of what things-- and one of the things, you know, for me to look at some of the pictures of what's going on, m- electron micrographs, they're beautiful, they're intricate, and they're complex, and to see that beauty, is wonderful. We want to-- obviously, not everyone can be a scientist, and I only know certain areas of science and medicine, but as we have a chance to learn from one another and to learn from other believers in different disciplines in science and, frankly, the arts, we can have a richer perspective of what God has done. We're not all the eye, the ear, or whatever, and we can look to one another to see the wonder of creation and the wonder of what God's doing.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I can see that, the, you know, your vague reference there to 1 Corinthians 12 and 13, that we're, we're, we're, we're not all, we're not all the same body part. That, that analogy of the human body, I think, is a, is a really appropriate one-

Rick Zimmerman: Yes

Scott Rae: ... For how the body of Christ needs to function together, and everyone, even the things that aren't seen in the body, needs to do their part, and even the parts that might look small and insignificant in the bo- in the human body, have essential roles to play, and if they don't-... You know, our eyesight suffers or our cellular function suffers, you know, or we don't, we don't breathe as freely as we, as we need to. All those things, I- that's a v- I think, a very apt reminder of what the body of Christ is like, and whether the person is highly visible or not, or behind the scenes, you know, everybody has an indispensable job to do in the body of Christ.

Rick Zimmerman: Certainly, I agree with you, and, sometimes those who have a simpler, education, have a greater wonder when they go outside and see the wonder of the stars. And so, it's not all those who've been-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Rick Zimmerman: -trained in academia.

Scott Rae: Now, one final question, Rick, I'm curious about. You cite several studies that have a pretty significant connection between regular religious attendance, either at a church or a synagogue or whatever-

Rick Zimmerman: Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: ... With our own physical and mental health. So what does the data show on this? I'm really curious to s- to hear more about this.

Rick Zimmerman: Sure. There are several studies. One of those was by Hummers, and it found a seven-year, seven-year greater life expectancy, using a study of 21,000 adults that was linked to mortality, in which they asked about religious attendance. And, eh, I'm a epidemiologist. We study diseases and their causes, and we look to see, is there a dose-response relationship? And actually, there is. Those who went to church or synagogue more had lower mortality than those who only went some, that had- did better than those who didn't go at all. And so this dose response was seen. And that was even after controlling for things like socioeconomic status. In another study, weekly attendance, or more, 33% lower cause, all-cause mortality, which is great. I mean, it would be great. I love this position.

Scott Rae: That's, that's a, that's a big number.

Rick Zimmerman: Yeah, to reduce that, and so that's, pretty strong evidence. And I think there's growing, eh, and there's a study that put together 44 different studies and showed about 27% lower hazard of death, across 44 studies. And so there's evidence now that religious attendance does make a difference and actually should be a major consideration in how we think about health and what protects health.

Scott Rae: Maybe what that suggests is that what goes on in our soul has an impact on our body.

Rick Zimmerman: Certainly.

Scott Rae: And, and vice versa. And I think there's, there's, there's, there's-- I think there's good evidence to suggest that, God designed the body and the soul, not as Descartes put it, as these sort of separate and distinct things, but, you know, integrally related to each other, where one impacts the other and vice versa. And so attending to our soul actually is good for our bodies as well, and vice versa, which is why I think s- things like exercise and regarding our body as a temple of the Holy Spirit, is actually good for our soul as well as good for our bodies.

Rick Zimmerman: Sure. I've had the opportunity as a physician to care for some pastors, and one of the things that, And I'm not going to minimize the sovereignty of God. I can only deal with what I see and know as a physician, but there's some of them that exercise, and I'm like, "Great!" And others, I have to tell to exercise-

Scott Rae: Mm-hmm

Rick Zimmerman: ... Because my concern is that when I see things, if we've neglected the body, then their, as from a human perspective, their career in ministry actually may be shorter because of the diseases from a sedentary lifestyle.

Scott Rae: Well-

Rick Zimmerman: And I've seen that.

Scott Rae: Yeah, and I hope those of our listeners who are pastors and church leaders, you heard it straight from our physician friend, Rick Zimmerman. Rick, this has been super insightful, so helpful. So much appreciate your work in this area on those things that in the body... And, and we've just, we've really just scratched the surface on this. There, I'm sure there are dozens more examples that you could bring, but these are some pretty significant ones that show the intricacy of the human body and the extremely low likelihood that those intricacies working together could have arisen by chance without an intelligent designer. So-

Rick Zimmerman: Well, thank you. I appreciate this opportunity, and really, what do we say but to God, thanks for what He's done in giving us such complex, such blessed, and intricate bodies, and the wonder of what He has done.

Scott Rae: Amen.

Rick Zimmerman: To God be the thanks.

Scott Rae: I'll, I'll let that be a very appropriate benediction for this. It's been a great conversation, Rick. Thanks so much for being with us, and, we look forward to talking again in the future.

Rick Zimmerman: All right. God bless.

Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast, Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask questions, make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover, or a guest you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app and share it with a friend, and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]