Part of the mission statement of Biola University is to engage culture, and we take this seriously. So when Brigham Young University (BYU) reached out to see if Biola students would be open to beginning an interfaith dialogue, we jumped at the opportunity. Tim and professor Andrew Reed (Ph.D.) are helping to lead this initiative, which includes co-teaching a class on civility, communication skills, and interfaith dialogue. On today’s episode Tim and Andrew invite three students - one from Biola and two from BYU - to discuss their experience dialoguing with one another on points of agreement and disagreement between Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism.


Transcript

Tim Muehlhoff: 00:02
Welcome to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. My name is Tim Muehlhoff. I am a faculty member at Biola University in La Mirada, California. I'm also the senior director of the Winsome Conviction Project that has been created to open lines of communication rather than close them. Thank you for joining us on the podcast. Today I have uh four very special guests. You may, if you've listened to some of the past episodes, know that for a long time, almost five years now, we've done what we call the Pomona Dialogues. Pomona College is uh a good baseball throwaway from Biola University. It's a progressive college. Uh we were paired up through Simon Greer's work called Bridging the Gap, and we've had great dialogues with individuals representing a progressive uh worldview, but it's been super productive. They come to our campus, we go to their campus. And then last year we got a visit uh from our friends at Brigham Young University. They were coming on the West Coast, visiting places like Azusa, Westmont, to see if we were interested in opening an evangelical Mormon dialogue. Uh it was a great visit. Uh, we met one of our guests on that visit, Dr. Andrew Reed, and we decided let's do it. Let's uh co-teach a class together, and then have uh their students come out to Biola University to engage us face to face. So let me introduce who's around the table first, and I'll have you introduce yourself once I pass it on. Uh to my left is Dr. Andrew Reed, uh Brigham Young professor. Andy, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do at BYU?

Andrew Reed: 01:43
Sure.

Andrew Reed: 01:44
Um Well, it's great to be here. I uh teach world religions. I teach a class that is connected to this project uh called Discipleship and Civil Discourse in a Polarized Age. Love that title. It's it's been a lot of fun so far. Um and I currently hold what's called the Richard Ellevins Chair of Religious Understanding, which is a professorship that was started by non-Latter-day Saints from California in honor of one of the uh church's apostles after he passed away uh because he had built interfaith relations, and so they asked BYU if they could sponsor a professorship.

Tim Muehlhoff: 02:18
So you came last year, we had it was a whirlwind. I mean, you hit three different universities in three different days. That was crazy. But then we we kind of hit it off. Uh a lot of mutual interests. We both love the Tar Heels and hate with the Biblical Hatred, Duke University.

Andrew Reed: 02:38
True. Can I just get an amen? And we did make a little pilgrimage to UNC.

Tim Muehlhoff: 02:42
We didn't know. We did. We actually got some training through Simon Greer's group on how do you kind of create classes that promote civility, and we got a chance to spend a week together, which was a blast. Um so we got this crazy idea to teach a class. Why don't you explain just a little bit about the nature of the class and then us zooming in every week, and I can join in as well. And then we actually have uh some of the participants from that class here as well. But tell us a little bit about the nature of the class, and I'll I'll share my perspective as well.

Andrew Reed: 03:11
Right. So the the class is um smaller than most BOU classes. We have 25 students in it. Um and it is we designed the class to do a couple of things. The first one is help students gain a skill set that opens up pathways to better conversations, um, and even pathways through difficult conversations. Uh and then we also wanted them to engage challenging ideas, ideas that are polarizing in society today. And so in my class, we've looked at um immigration. Most recently, we looked at um marriage, dating, and children. Uh, and we also had a really wonderful conversation around comedy and the boundaries of comedy and political satire. Really? Which I thought was a lot of fun, and students seem to enjoy it as well. So we're really trying to dive into not just the skill set, but then put those skill sets into practice. And as part of this, we have been uh, let's see now, five, six weeks with biola students uh zooming together, and we break the students off into small groups where they have conversations, um, trying to articulate the other religious community's perspective on something, whether it be the canon or something else. And um then also during that time, you've been able to offer some skills that help us do some of this navigating of conversations.

Tim Muehlhoff: 04:33
Yeah, through the miracle of Zoom, which is just amazing. Every week, there are about 18 bio students you're about to meet, uh, one of them, uh, and BYU students, you're about to meet two of them. Uh, we would just zoom in for 50 minutes and start off with a communication technique, a thought, and then we'd have them go into breakouts and we would jump in and do it. I'm gonna explain a little bit in detail what that looks like, but ask what your experience was jumping in. So let's meet some of the participants. First, we have from Biola University Lauren. Lauren, can you introduce yourself? Um, tell us a little bit what your major was. You've graduated already, which is really interesting, but just tell us who you are and why you signed up to be part of this because having being a graduate, you didn't receive any credit for doing this. It's just you something you wanted to do.

Student: 05:24
Yeah, hi, I'm Lauren. Um, I was first, I guess, exposed to this type of an experience um through the Bridging the Gap program that Simon Greer had had done that you had mentioned earlier um with Pomona. And I was part of the first two experiences with Pomona, the Pomona dialogues. And when you had communicated it to me a few months ago, it struck me as being similar but different to that experience. Um, and that was so enriching in my life. And I had seen so many areas of my life where it has transformed how I would have approached a conversation with someone that I had a very different worldview from. And so bringing that into people that I would have more of a similar worldview with, um, I think that it was just like too good of an experience to not do. Also, anything that Dr. Muhlhoff suggests you do normally is pretty good. Come on. Um, so that would be the reason why I participated. But I was a communication major at Viola and I graduated in 2023.

Tim Muehlhoff: 06:26
Okay, before we get to two current BYU students, I just want to reflect on this just for a second that you were part of two Pomona dialogues, but these are with progressive students, not people who come from a faith tradition. So, what's been the difference a little bit talking to people that you don't have this commonality of valuing religion and faith? How's it been different now stepping in with people? And there are differences, of course, between our two faith communities. What's been the difference? Uh has one been easier than the other?

Student: 06:60
That's such a good question. I think that one of the things that I mentioned as being a significant difference is worldview, where in the first situation, I don't think that worldview was something that provoked commonality, but rather it was the primary difference. And in this dialogue, I think that worldview is actually the most common. Um it it's the easiest point of conversation, I think, especially in our conversations, which I'm sure we'll get into the BYU and Biola students' discussions about Jesus Christ. I think has been wildly unifying in how we speak about him and our experiences with him, um, versus in a situation like the Pomona dialogue, religion is like the very last thing that we would bring up. Um and so I think that that's been really refreshing and encouraging to be able to lead with uh with our worldview instead of end with it.

Tim Muehlhoff: 07:54
Were you more nervous about one than the other?

Student: 07:58
What a good question. Um I don't think so. I think both I was just really excited. I think and I and I think that I felt very prepared. Maybe Pomona, because of the the reputation of some of the students, I was more intimidated, maybe.

Student: 08:15
Right.

Student: 08:16
Um but even within that, I just really trusted the process and trusted you and Simon and trusted that the Lord just had a a really beautiful plan for that dialogue. Um but yeah, I would say maybe I was a bit more intimidated in entering into the Pomona dialogue for sure.

Tim Muehlhoff: 08:29
But what a great comment. I I think sometimes we psych ourselves out with our progressive friends and we think, oh, there's no way we can talk about some of those issues. But with a little bit of training, a little bit of structure, uh, those Pomona dialogues going on now for five years have actually been really rich. Yeah, uh a lot of unexpected common ground, but obviously disagreements. The same true with our friends from BYU. There's commonalities, but there's differences of opinion when it comes to the Bible, when it comes to Jesus, the nature of God, but we still are having some really interesting conversations. Uh, I want to introduce you very quickly to Max. Max, thank you so much for joining the Winsome Conviction podcast. It's probably going to be the pinnacle of your entire college experience. He's laughing, so is Andy.

Tim Muehlhoff: 09:16
Seems like it's so far. Oh, good. Max. Well done.

Tim Muehlhoff: 09:19
So, Max, tell us a little bit about your major, and you are about to graduate.

Student: 09:25
Yeah, that's true. So I'm a student at BYU. I'm studying international relations, and my my emphasis has been on economic and political development. Um, and so I'll be graduating here soon. I just have one more semester left of classes. I'll I'll take an internship in the fall, finish up in winter, and then go out into the the labor force.

Tim Muehlhoff: 09:52
Hey, can you tell us just very quickly? You have already done your mission, right? Correct. When when did you do that?

Student: 09:59
So I I started my mission in 2019 in Mozambique. And then when the the COVID-19 pandemic started in 2020, um, it was no longer safe to keep a lot of missionaries in in some foreign countries, Mozambique being one of them. So I came home and I actually I waited around for about 14 months before being reassigned to to finish my mission in in Arizona.

Tim Muehlhoff: 10:26
Great. Yeah. So um what did you think when Dr. Reed explained that people uh students from the Bible Institute of Los Angeles were going to be zooming into your class to engage? What how did that strike you?

Student: 10:39
I I thought it was really cool because um slightly before we that that we had learned that, I was talking to a friend um and we were saying, How are we supposed to like kind of make these connections before actually going down to Los Angeles? Like it doesn't seem like it would be too effective to just you know have all of us meet in person and then have like a conference call with with Biola University. We thought it would be really cool to be able to have more one-on-one interactions. So I I was excited when when I learned that we would get to have small little breakout groups in which we could have discussions.

Tim Muehlhoff: 11:23
That's really cool. Thanks for being a part of it. Now let's uh be introduced to Alexis. Alexis, thank you for joining us.

Student: 11:31
You're very welcome. Hey, I'm Alexis. So I'm a senior, I'll be graduating this December uh from BYU. I'm a business major, um, and I've really been loving it.

Tim Muehlhoff: 11:42
That's great. Um and you have uh like this was a great conversation just walking over here. You have not gone on a mission. I have not, which may surprise some listeners that that not everybody does that.

Student: 11:54
Yeah, so so um in the LDS church, then it's it's optional for women to go on a mission. And growing up, I was always one of the people who was like, Yeah, you know, I'm gonna graduate high school, I'm gonna wait a year until I'm eligible to go, and then I'm gonna go on a mission. But graduating from high school, um, I kind of was waiting for that. I'm like, okay, it'll be probably the next year, but as I was planning my life out and praying and deciding where does God want me, I it really came to the uh conclusion that it was like, all right, it's not now. And it just kept being not now, and I just kept going where I was told, and that ended up being BYU, but not a mission.

Tim Muehlhoff: 12:29
Oh, great. Well, thank you for joining us. What were your impressions before uh the dialogue actually started to happen? What was what was your broad perspective of the evangelical perspective? Like how much do you feel like you knew about it, and were there any surprises when we started to zoom in?

Student: 12:49
Um I honestly didn't know a lot about the evangelical perspective. Like I'd I'd heard a little bit about like they're the people who really like the Bible, right?

Tim Muehlhoff: 12:58
Um but we are the Bible Institute of Los Angeles.

Student: 13:02
Something like that. Um but I've been able to kind of you know talk. I was actually in the same breakout room as Lauren in our discussions. Um, but I've been able to learn a little bit more about your perspective, and I've really loved that throughout the entire like five, six weeks that we've been doing it.

Tim Muehlhoff: 13:18
What's one thing that stands out? Like was a surprise? Um it could be theological, it could be about our community, but something that just kind of took you by surprise.

Student: 13:27
So one of the first questions that we kind of crossed as uh in our breakout sessions actually was I was uh wondering with you guys so you guys believed in a closed theology with the Bible, right? And so I was curious to as to, okay, well, what translation of the Bible do you use? And so we got I got to kind of go in depth and say, well, um it kind of depends on which on what you're going for, where like the the King James Version kind of does a little bit more flowery words, um, where you can use direct translations from what I understand that I was told. Um it's like direct translations are fantastic, and it's just kind of what is the best for your personal study at the time.

Tim Muehlhoff: 14:07
Yeah, that's great. So translation-wise, we we can go word for word, we can try to match it, or we go thought for thought. So that's what would separate the ESV from something like the NIV. So that's just kind of how we look at it. But we we feel like both are accurate. They're just trying artistically to get at it maybe just a little bit different way. Max, what would you say? Any any how much did you know about evangelical theology or the or community and any surprises?

Student: 14:35
Yeah. Um growing up, I was in a few social circles where I was the only member of my church and where a lot of my friends were evangelical. Um and so now and then like they would invite me to things like you know, Bible study for our for our football team. And we had a team chaplain, and um I didn't know a whole lot about um evangelical theology, but from what I could see is we we would pray together and we would read the Bible together. Um and so I I would see a lot of similarities in the the kind of messages that that we would share. Um, and so I've always known it to be a a good community. Um but I think what has maybe most impressed me since coming to Biola, and I don't maybe this isn't like shocking, but maybe more just like impressive, is when we were looking at the uh big, super tall painting of of Jesus. We call it the Jesus mural. The Jesus mural, yeah. Um our tour guide had mentioned that if you look up Biola on Google Maps, that the the pin goes directly on Jesus' head to symbolize that he is the center of everything that the the university stands for. And and and to me I did not know that.

Andrew Reed: 16:10
Maybe teach you a little bit about yourself.

Student: 16:12
Thank you, Max. Thank you. That was really actually hosting and anyways, um I don't know. I think that's just kind of when it clicked, is I I didn't know much about Christian schools. I always maybe thought people go to a Christian school for a degree, and then maybe just to learn about Jesus maybe on the side. But that's when it all clicked. Like really, I I have felt that that Jesus Christ has been the center of of the Biola community, and I think that's why I've I've felt so welcomed and I've it's felt very, very genuine and very good. U

Tim Muehlhoff: 16:53
Uh Max can be part of an ad campaign very quickly.

Tim Muehlhoff: 16:58
We were gonna use this very quickly.

Andrew Reed: 17:01
Get your N I L deal in the Lauren. Let's answer that question as well. Then Andy, you and me, let's answer that question, what we have kind of learned a little bit. So, Lauren, what um how much did you know about LDS theology and what what has struck you as you've gotten to know more?

Student: 17:20
Yeah, I I have grown up and we were just discussing it. I I grew up in a town that is pretty equal parts Protestant, Catholic, and LDS. And so I had a lot of LDS friends growing up, so I feel like I was very familiar with the community and values, but I think maybe in this experience, what's been most eye-opening is um when we were discussing our sacred core within our um within our religious beliefs the group that I was in, which Alexis was a part of, nearly everybody said that it was the atonement of Jesus Christ. And in their explanation of that, there was just such depth of uh connection with Christ because of the empathy that Christ has because of his sacrifice. Um, and that was a really beautiful thing to to listen to, to receive from my fellow participants in this class. And yeah, I think that just the the raw emotional response to that reality was something that was really refreshing and convicting because it was just an area that I was ignorant to. I don't think that I had many uh like expectations or or prior opinion on the relationship between LDS individuals and Jesus Christ. Um, but I think it was just something that, yeah, was beautifully surprising to me. Um the other thing that I think was really fascinating to me was the explanation for the additional um holy texts and that they're not above or below the Bible, but rather side by side in importance and relevance, and also the explanation that so many of these holy texts are bringing further clarity to the Word of God rather than changing the Word of God. Um and so understanding more of the value of these holy texts within the LDS faith, I think was really helpful for me. Um, and also understanding more of the the way that they coincide with the Holy Bible, I think was really refreshing and and and helpful. Just information that I I didn't know before.

Tim Muehlhoff: 19:27
Okay.

Tim Muehlhoff: 19:27
Uh Andy, what would you say?

Andrew Reed: 19:30
So I I think that the evangelical Latter-day Saint relationship it's been we've had a long relationship um among academics and uh and some leaders. And those have always been very productive and fruitful uh uh conversations. Where I think the relationship is strained is usually uh just among people on the street. And one of the things that has been so refreshing about uh this particular project is we're getting past just professors talking to each other and we're getting students talking to each other without having to sort of defend the academic insights into Jesus and history and and it's it's a bit more raw and it's a bit more honest. Um I think for many of our BYU students, um, if they know anything about evangelicals, it has come probably from difficult relationships uh or one-off conversations on the street when maybe they were uh proslighting missionary and strong disagreements. Yeah. Uh and that leaves a kind of bad taste on both sides. And I think that one of the things that this project's doing is actually creating a more sustained relationship for for our communities to be honest about what we think and to do so in a way that is seeking to understand, seeking to open up um the conversation. You know, in chapel this morning there was a statement in one of the songs um, open up my eyes to wonder. Right? And I think that's what this is doing for me is I'm learning to have wonder at the evangelical tradition, which has not always been something I've been encouraged to have.

Tim Muehlhoff: 21:19
Can I just ask, what have you been encouraged to have? What kind of a stance?

Andrew Reed: 21:24
Well, I mean, I I've done a lot of interfaith work. Uh I've worked with Muslims, I've worked a lot with Jewish communities, um, with other Christian communities. Evangelicals have always been the one where if I say I'm working with evangelicals, Latter-day Saints go, oh. Right? That somehow there's an there's an uh an image or uh an understanding, some kind of stereotype in the mind of many Latter day Saints about who evangelicals are. And usually that comes from a kind of what we would call uh maybe Bible bashing and actually overcoming. That initial reaction has been harder encouraging other people to see why this kind of engagement matters. Yeah, that's so good.

Tim Muehlhoff: 22:08
Uh for myself, I honestly didn't know anyone from the LDS community or the LDS church. I really didn't, until uh I had a son on a Godforsaken high school basketball team. And I I do not use those words lightly. We would lose by 20, 25, 30 points a game. And these were really good athletes. And we had one of the best football teams we've ever had at our high school, and a lot of these people went right on the basketball team, and it was a disaster. So a good a good friend, but they became good friends because misery loves company was uh another couple. We really got to know them. And I I later learned that he was a bishop in a a ward uh close to where I live, and we really got to know each other well, but didn't talk theology. We just didn't for whatever reason. We talked misery and parenting and you know and things like that. So when we did get to theology, there were some things that kind of surprised me a little bit about um theology of the LDS church that kind of did surprise me. But Andy, I love what you just said about honest conversations. Um being honest about our similarities, but I think we've gotten to the place of these Zoom interactions and now we're face-to-face. So 25 BYU students, three faculty, and a dean.

Andrew Reed: 23:27
The dean will be arriving tomorrow.

Tim Muehlhoff: 23:29
Yeah, have come to Biola University now to build off of those Zoom interactions and I'll have face-to-face eat together and continue these conversations on a deeper level. So let's wrap up segment number one by going around and saying what because we've had a great time. I I think that's what's really encouraged me. It can be done. You can have differences and still get together and have these honest conversations. But maybe let's end this segment with but what are some honest disagreements that have arisen from our perspectives? Um I'll go first. So it really was a great time in Salt Lake City, but there were things that I learned that I honestly never knew. Let me say one of them is of course, God uh is a huge part of both of our faith traditions. My understanding, and by the way, let me just say this is what's great about this interaction that we're having. When I said my understanding, I immediately looked at Andy. That's what's great about doing this when the two communities come together, is you get to ask clarifying questions of each other. So, Andy, my understanding, and what would be a legitimate disagreement is that God at one time was a man that through a series of progressions has become divine. Now, divine in the sense that we we would say this is what makes God divine. I mean, omnipresent, omniscient, um, all-powerful, but that there was a time that he was a man that morphed into God.

Tim Muehlhoff: 25:08
Is that a fair representation or is that

Andrew Reed: 25:11
It is a very fair representation of one part of Latter-day Saint thinking on this? Okay. So uh absolutely uh there are sources and document documents from uh you know as early as our founder, Joseph Smith, um, making the claim that um there is a kind of progression of God's existence. Um that does not summarize, I don't think, the entirety of the way that most Latter-day Saints actually think about this. Um that would represent maybe our most obviously the the most controversial of our views. Um but I think there are others that would would soften that a little bit to say we're unsure about a lot of the details of that.

Tim Muehlhoff: 26:03
Okay, that yeah, that that's alone. I want to do a whole podcast on that, because I think that would be so helpful for us just to honestly dialogue. But that but if if that is true, that aspect, that would that would just be an honest disagreement between our two faith communities. Um because we believe that God is eternal. Uh no one created God, he's always been in existence and he's always been divine. Um Andy, what what would be something would be an honest disagreement between our two communities?

Andrew Reed: 26:35
Well, I I'll say this, and uh you can correct me if I'm completely wrong on this, but I think one of the areas that I've noticed in in more recent conversations with a a lot of evangelicals is there is an internal view of what the evangelical perspective is with regards to politics. Oh the assumption that, well, we're evangelical therefore. And I think that that conversation in Latter-day Saint circles is often has a similar mirror. But I think we're working we we would be uncomfortable with the kind of what is the perception of the evangelical perspective a little bit.

Tim Muehlhoff: 27:22
Oh, Andy, we could go all night.

Andrew Reed: 27:25
We're here.

Tim Muehlhoff: 27:26
Yeah. I think there's many, and let me just say this there's many within the evangelical community that would be equally uncomfortable with how we're being framed as being monolithic, right? And I I think I think that's a that would be a great podcast is talk about there is diversity within the evangelical camp. Lauren, what would you say honest disagreement that's kind of arisen as you've been interacting with BYU students?

Student: 27:51
Yeah, I think Alexis touched on it, but within our group um discussion, I think the largest and most significant one was the difference between open and closed revelation. Um but within that it was super helpful because um at one point when uh a BYU student was explaining our perspective, they had kind of asked, I guess, as far as revelation goes, you don't believe that there's there's further revelation or prophecy. And then that gave a really good opportunity for us to clarify the semantics of the word prophecy and of revelation and explain that depending on the denomination that you lie within, um, you're gonna get a different answer on that. As far as authoritative revelation and uh an authoritative prophecy, then that would be correct. Um, but in terms of what our understanding of prophecy is just speaking the word and truth of God um at the time in which he desires, that kind of prophecy we believe is alive and well. Um and so that was that was a really helpful discussion, I think, but it still at the end of the day was very clear that we disagreed on that fundamentally, yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff: 29:02
Max, what would you say? What has kind of arisen that caught your attention?

Student: 29:06
Oh, I I think probably the biggest one has been has been the nature of God. Whereas a lot of our like evangelical friends in our group um express their beliefs of of the Trinity, where Jesus Christ and God the Father and the Holy Spirit would would all be one being. And um whereas we would believe that they are all three separate and distinct beings. And so we were able to have a lot of really interesting conversations about that of you know, is Jesus Christ divine? Um, a lot of the the evangelical students had had questions about that for us because they felt like if if they're not one being, is Jesus Christ still divine? And and thankfully we were able to, you know, answer yes, we we absolutely believe that. But um despite that similarity to despite that shared belief of Christ's divinity, we we still separate definitely have differing views on what that looks like. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Tim Muehlhoff: 30:20
Alexis, what do you think? What comes to mind?

Student: 30:23
Oh, well, unfortunately, Max kind of just stole the one that I was gonna do. So I'll pull on one that I'm actually really excited to talk about, but I haven't been able to really discuss um with any any any of the uh students from Viola yet, and that is original sin. Because the LDS faith believes that there is no original sin. Um, where we believe that it was always in the plan for Eve to eat the fruit, and that every individual person has their own agency to decide what they're going to do with their lives, and like every sin that man that someone incurs is their own sin. It is there's nothing handed down from Eve eating the original fruit. Um, but from what I believe for evangelicals, um that is opposite where everyone has this passed down generational sin from Eve eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden.

Tim Muehlhoff: 31:19
Yeah, that's so Alexis, that's so good because I did not know that.

Student: 31:24
Really?

Tim Muehlhoff: 31:25
I did not know that was an LDS uh perspective. We would go to what Paul says to the Church of Rome in Adam all sinned. So we would we we would believe in this federal head idea that God chose Adam and Eve to be representatives of humanity. We don't we're not crazy about that as Americans, like we're like, hey, I don't know about that. But it we generally accept the the headship role that Adam and Eve had. But but this is what's great, Alexis, is is that that would be me instead of immediately chopping you at the knees, saying, Okay, tell me more about that.

Student: 32:05
Yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff: 32:06
And that's what I think has happened in this dialogue is our our knee jerk response isn't because this isn't happening in a one and done. We've had five weeks to get to know each other, and now we're gonna have two and a half days. Now I'm learning that my response is no, tell me more about that. Exactly. Flesh that out for me. Like, where do you get that from in your books? Um, and so so that's what's cool. That that gives me hope that we can have this continual conversation and get to know each other. Uh Rick Langer, uh co-director of Windsor Conviction Project and co-host, would say, let's achieve authentic disagreement. And that there's great value in that. So uh yeah, to be continued. Absolutely. To be continued over dinner, that would that would be awesome. Well, listen, would you all come back? Could we all have you back on a podcast again? Happy to do it. We would love it. We would absolutely love to do that. Uh they immediately looked at Andy. Both of the students were like, Tell us you don't need my permission. Hey, listen, you've been listening to the Winsome Conviction podcast. We don't take your listening for granted. Uh, thank you for tuning in. I I hope you're encouraged. That part of the mission statement of Biola University is to engage, and we take that seriously. Unfortunately, we got a lot of bad examples of what engagement looks like today. It's cancel culture and demonizing each other. We really hope with a new generation of students that we can raise up a new crop that just rejects the argument culture and rather takes a look at understanding and then authentic disagreement. If you like what you've heard, go to winsomeconviction.com. Brand new revamped website. It is absolutely amazing. You can sign up for our quarterly newsletter. All of our past podcasts, which include Dr. Reed and a man named Greg Johnson, who did a really great job, an evangelical pastor of opening the dialogue between Biola and BYU. It's a great two part series. Um, it's really fun to get the genesis of this and all the good work that Greg has done. That's in our archives, so please check us out at winsomeconviction.com.