Biola University
What are communication spirals and how do they contribute to the argument culture? On today’s episode, Tim and Rick discuss these patterns of negative communication and what can trigger them. They also draw from research in communication theory to suggest ways to de-escalate situations when we become perturbed, frustration boils, and we want to up the negative communication.
Transcript
Rick Langer: Welcome to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. My name's Rick Langer. I'm a professor at Biola University in the Biblical Studies and Theology department. I'm the director of the Office of Faith and Learning, but I'm also the co-director of the Winsome Conviction Project, and therefore the co-host of the Winsome Conviction Podcast, which I do with my good friend Tim Muehlhoff. Tim, what have you got for us today?
Tim Muehlhoff: Well, Rick, I'm a communication professor, and one thing that really is at the core of communication theory is this thing called communication spirals. There's positive spirals, there's negative spirals. The first time I experienced a negative spiral was not in grad school. It was in the backyard with my older brother, Bob, who would eventually go to play college football at Ferris State University. I'm the youngest, he's the oldest. We're playing catch in the backyard. We're having a great time all of a sudden, because he's a guy, he throws a zinger. A zinger is an inappropriate fastball, right? So you can imagine, I'm the youngest. He throws this, and it's pop, and I'm like, "Ah." Now, what do I say to my older brother at that point, Rick?
Rick Langer: "I'm coming for you." No.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right, yeah. I don't say, "Bob, Bob, we were having fun. We were making a memory. I think you threw that ball inappropriately hard." I don't say any of that. I throw it back to him as hard as humanly possible, and he throws it back to me as hard, and then eventually we're on the ground wrestling with my dad yelling out of the back window, "work it out." That's a negative communication spiral. What happened was-
Rick Langer: Got it, yeah. And those aren't recommended, right?
Tim Muehlhoff: Those are not recommended.
Rick Langer: Okay, good.
Tim Muehlhoff: So the key about a spiral is I don't just match it, I increase it. So if you raise your voice, I raise my voice. If you take a step towards me, I take a step towards you. If I pound the table, you slam the table. That's a negative communication spiral. So I teach, in addition to my classes in the Winsome Conviction Project, I do seminars on de-escalation skills within self-defense. I also have a black belt in kung fu, Rick Langer.
Rick Langer: Just in case the verbal de-escalation doesn't work, you're equipped. Got it, okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes, just in case the winsome part does not work. I just did a seminar the other day on, how do you de-escalate? When you feel like that's really gaining momentum, when a person throws a fastball to you, we have a choice to make. Do I throw the fastball right back to him? Now we're in a negative communication spiral. Or is there a way to interrupt the pattern of things coming very quickly? And my goodness, turn on the media today, and you see verbal fastballs coming at each other very quickly.
Rick Langer: Well, that's what I was going to say. It seems like you have a pretty good option for de-escalating right at the outset. I worry about what happens once the ball goes back and forth two or three times because I picture this ending with two kids wrestling on the ground and dad shouting out the back window, "Work it out"
Tim Muehlhoff: By the way, that was my dad's parenting philosophy. We had a basement. This was Michigan. And it was just like, he'd close the door. He'd close the door. That was his strategy, and there would be three Muehlhoff boys-
Rick Langer: Working it out.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... busting stuff and wrestling. Okay, so a couple things before we actually get to the strategy. I use this acronym called SAFE, S-A-F-E. But before we get there, we have to talk about two other things. One, there is what I would call an escalation continuum. So there is angry. That's preceded by upset, and then angry is bookmarked by enraged. So we would go from upset, to angry, to enraged.
I think if two people are upset, you have time to deescalate. Angry, yes. But it depends on how close you're budding up against enraged. If we get enraged, that's me and my brother wrestling on the ground, there's no time to deescalate because that person's in your face. They're putting hands on you. They're calling you derogatory names. We are clearly in the enraged category. So I need to know in a deescalation situation, where am I on this continuum? Second, I need to know what I call my pre-escalation state of mind. I need to know how I'm doing. You know what I mean? Am I tired, frazzled?
Rick Langer: Before any of these episodes happen.
Tim Muehlhoff: Before the first ball comes.
Rick Langer: What you walked in the door with before?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes. Yeah, Book of Proverbs, "A wise man overlooks an insult." Okay. But I need to know, what's my frame of mind? Do I have any kind of reservoir to do that? Let me give you a for instance. When I'm at LAX, Rick, my pre-escalation state is really bad. I am annoyed. I'm annoyed walking in. I've already been annoyed because it took so long to find a parking spot. I'm annoyed because TSA works everywhere except at LAX. Pre-check does not work well. I never go there two hours early, but at LAX you need to go two days early. So already I know that my escalation pre-state is, I'm pretty irritable ,and I can snap pretty quickly. It's good to know that.
Rick Langer: Yeah, no, so this is giving me anxiety when I think about our culture relative to communication in general. I feel like our culture is living at LAX, already worked up. And so it's almost impossible to bring a healthy background to a conversation. Tim, I notice this when I read email, go through my inbox and read political blogs or things like that, that come in the inbox. I realize that my reservoir of patience, I'm like a Winsome Conviction guy, right? But I just am self-aware of this, what did you call it? What was your fancy name for this? Too many for [inaudible 00:06:08] write out.
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, SAFE. We're going to get to SAFE.
Rick Langer: No, no, but the-
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, pre-escalation state. My pre-escalation state of mind.
Rick Langer: So that's what I'm sitting here thinking as you talk about this, is there's kind of a broad cultural pre-escalation state in addition to whatever you might happen to have.
Tim Muehlhoff: Remember when we brought Alan Jacobs here to Biola's campus?
Rick Langer: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: He said the internet has made us perpetually perturbed. We are perpetually annoyed.
Rick Langer: So you're already up the scale before you do anything.
Tim Muehlhoff: I'm at LAX all the time. I'm perpetually at LAX. We have to be very careful, by the way, of being in social media spaces, or just among friends, that really put me in LAX. When we talk about politics or whatever, I'm annoyed, and, "How could those people think that? And how could a Christian think?" I mean, I'm just ready to go. So I need to be aware of that. So we need to deescalate as much as possible. So when I feel this happening within my soul, when I feel my emotions in an escalation situation where we're throwing the verbal fastballs, my heart rate will double. We actually know this from self-defense studies.
Rick Langer: Literally-
Tim Muehlhoff: Literally double. And people who have studied martial arts their entire lives forget everything because they've never trained in that kind of situation. They've always trained in a very comfortable scenario. I teach self-defense here, Rick, at Biola University, a one-credit PE self-defense class. And one day I played a joke on them. There were five weeks left in the semester, and I sat down with them and said, "We're done. Everything you need to know. We don't need to meet anymore." And one woman was great. She said, "But I really like this class." I said, "No, we're done. If you're ever attacked in a dance studio wearing yoga pants by a Christian professor, we are good to go. You know everything you need to know."
But that is not reality. So when you're in these moments of high tension, we need to practice de-escalation. Now, let me give you one quick one that we can actually do and listeners can actually do it with us. It's called the 3-3-3 breathing exercise. When Horace Gracie finally wrote his autobiography, the King of Jiu-Jitsu, he called it Breathe. That was the name of his autobiography because he said that is the secret to Jiu-Jitsu is to breathe and calm yourself when you're in these situations where somebody's on top of you. Okay, so here's what we're going to do, Rick. We're going to breathe in for three. We're going to hold for three, then we're going to exhale through our nose for three. Okay? So ready, and listeners-
Rick Langer: We're going to do this into the mic?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, we're going to do this into the mic, and listeners, you can [inaudible 00:08:52]-
Rick Langer: We apologize ahead of time. This is Tim's idea. Go ahead.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes. Now, this has to be diaphragmatic breathing, which means shallow breathing can actually make you more anxious. If you go... You're actually working yourself up into anxiety. But diaphragmatic, that stomach needs to come out, extend. So you put your hand on your stomach. That needs to extend when you breathe in. So, okay, listeners ready? If you're driving to your hands on the wheel, what is that?
Rick Langer: I have my hand on my stomach for you, don't worry.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, 11:00 and 2:00 whatever is that on the wheel. All right, ready? So breathe in for three. Hold for three, Exhale. Breathe in for three. Hold for three. Exhale. One more time. Breathe in for three. Hold for three, exhale. Now, honestly, what I like to do is to add a breath prayer.
Rick Langer: Are you sure this makes for good radio?
Tim Muehlhoff: It does not make for great radio, but I feel much more calm right now.
Rick Langer: Okay, good.
Tim Muehlhoff: So I add a breath prayer to that, right? So when I breathe in, I say, "Lord Jesus, help me," when I exhale, right? I ask God to help me in this tense moment. So there's a way to spiritualize it, but all the research that's been done on this is non-spiritual. Literally, breathing can really help you de-escalate yourself. Because if we don't de-escalate ourselves, we're throwing a fastball immediately. Our hand stings, and we're throwing that ball right back.
So once we do that, so you're walking into a meeting, this is going to be a tense meeting. I'm doing that breathing exercise maybe 10 times even, and adding prayer to it. Now, when I'm in it, we're going to use the acronym SAFE, S-A-F-E. S is seek to understand what the other person believes. You don't have to agree with it. I just want to know, how do you see the situation? I'm not going to judge it prematurely. I'm not going to say, "Well, that's ridiculous. That is not true." I'm going to listen to you and seek to really understand what your perspective is and then maybe even adopt that to say, "If I saw the world that way, this is how I would react." So the very first thing is I want to see this situation, this disagreement, from that person's perspective. I'm not condoning it. I'm just seeing it from their perspective.
Rick Langer: And do you even say something like, "Wait a minute, help me see this your way?" Or do you [inaudible 00:11:26]-
Tim Muehlhoff: A hundred percent, yeah. For example, you believe if this political candidate were elected, it would be the end of our country. Okay, now parenthetical comment, stop right there. If I really believe that, imagine the anxiety I feel and how important this upcoming election is, and my one job is to get people to see this could be the demise of the republic. Okay? Now, I don't believe that, but you do. So the first thing in de-escalation is, I see the world through your perspective. I do not judge it because it's way too early to judge. Okay? So the S of SAFE is, I simply seek to understand your perspective. The A is to acknowledge the emotions attached with that perspective. If I had a friend who honestly believed it's dangerous to fly. Like, "The chances of a crash are great, thus I will not fly. I certainly won't put my kids on a flight."
I can think of 50 million statistics to argue against that. But if I interject it right now, we're throwing fastballs at each other. So one, I want to do the S, seek to understand them. If that was my belief, that there was a high likelihood this plane's going to crash, there's no way I'm taking my wife on this plane. And imagine all the emotions attached if I really think this plane is going to crash as it begins to take off. I acknowledge the emotions and say, "That must be terrifying."
Rick Langer: And you would again, turn that back to the person that you're talking to and say, "Wow, I think I see what you're saying. And I understand that if I felt what you're feeling there, I would not want to go get on the plane," whatever it is. But you can acknowledge how you understand how they got to their emotional state in light of their beliefs. That's the [inaudible 00:13:18].
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, and hang out there as long as you can. Don't be in a rush. That fastball possibility is right in the back. That fastball is ready to go.
Rick Langer: They still have the ball in their hand waiting to decide how hard they're going to throw it, got it.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. So the S is seek to understand. The A is acknowledge the emotions, right? The power of those emotions. The F is really interesting. Focus on what to say and what not to say. You focus on both. So we have studied this to death. My PhD is actually in conflict resolution theory, right? Rick, we could spend podcast after podcast talking about the richness of communication theory when it comes to disagreeing. The cool thing is, they've actually researched watching people have disagreements, and they actually feed one person things to say to see if it increases the fastballs, if it increases the anger. And so I'm actually given a script. You don't know I have a script.
Rick Langer: Oh, so you're like the guy helping out the guy doing the experiment to see if you can [inaudible 00:14:22].
Tim Muehlhoff: We have a legitimate disagreement, and it's being filmed, but I've been given things to interject into the conversation and researchers are watching to see what reaction you have when they interject them. So I have the top five in order. Now all five are bad, but the first one I'm going to mention is the least bad of the five, but it's still bad. Okay? Here we go.
Rick Langer: I'm ready.
Tim Muehlhoff: Like a David Letterman top 10, but we don't have a budget for the 10. We can just do five. All right, number one, that's not true. Like, "Dude. That's not true. Planes don't crash. I can show you... The plane is not going to crash. That is not true, what you just said."
Rick Langer: And you're dismissing the fact. It isn't necessarily the way you even... "That's not true." It's simply the fact that you have denied the reality of their perception.
Tim Muehlhoff: "You come home late to dinner regularly, and it just makes me feel unappreciated in this marriage."
"That's not true. When was the last time I was late? That is not true. I bet you in the last couple months I've been late maybe once." See what I mean?
Rick Langer: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Woo. And people watching it, researchers were like, "Okay, that's good."
Rick Langer: And that's level one.
Tim Muehlhoff: That's one.
Rick Langer: And it does go up to DEFCON 5.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, I hope people are not taking notes, by the way, saying, "I'm going to do this." Okay.
Rick Langer: "This is what Dr. Muehlhoff said."
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay, number two. If you're married, you get this one in a heartbeat. Okay, here's what you should do. Okay. Yeah, you're having a hard time at home. I get it. You're juggling a lot of plates. I get it. All right, listen, here's what you should do. Three things you should do. You didn't do well on my test. Okay, I get that as a student. Okay, next time, do this.
Rick Langer: My wife asks me all the time, "Rick, could you please help me fix this?" Are you saying I shouldn't do it? Wait, no, she never has said that, come to think of that.
Tim Muehlhoff: So it's timing. Listen, eventually, I'm going to help that student study better. Eventually, that would be my job as a professor. But if I interject that right away, then we've ignored the S and the A of SAFE.
Rick Langer: But what if we have a really good fix?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes, I know Rick. This really will fix it.
Rick Langer: I don't like your list. Are you done yet?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, I know. This is a horrible list. Number three, "It's going to be okay. Trust me. Get on the plane. It's going to be okay. Your kids will be fine. You'll be fine. The country's going to be fine. We're going to be fine. It's okay.
Rick Langer: So this actually gets a worse reaction than just denying their claim?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes, yes.
Rick Langer: You tell them, "It'll all be okay."
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, these are in order.
Rick Langer: So in fact, the dismissiveness of it is worse than the denial of it.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Rick Langer: Wow, okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: We've got two more, Rick, and I bet you-
Rick Langer: I'm pretty much in a funk already, Tim. You can stop anytime you want, buddy.
Tim Muehlhoff: By the way, I bet you listeners are thinking, "I know what it is." And I bet you most listeners do know what the worst is because we want to say it all the time, especially in high-tension situations. But we're not there yet, Rick. Okay, number four, "You're overreacting. This country is not in that bad of shape. That plane is not going to... That was turbulence, for crying out loud. The plane's not going to crash. They never crash. Very seldom do they crash. You're overreacting. The house is not messy. It might be a little dirty. Come on, this is a $10 reaction to a $1 problem."
Rick Langer: Okay, so wait a minute. If I'm talking to someone who believes that if this election doesn't turn out the way they want them to, the country will end. And I point out to them that they said that in 2016 and 2020, they won't like it?
Tim Muehlhoff: They will not like it.
Rick Langer: Is that what you're saying?
Tim Muehlhoff: They will not like it.
Rick Langer: But 2024 is coming. Shouldn't they know that they said that?
Tim Muehlhoff: I know. I know.
Rick Langer: Wow, okay.
Tim Muehlhoff: Now, listeners may be saying, "Wait, don't I ever get to counter a perspective?" Yeah, we're going to get to the E of SAFE.
Rick Langer: Because we still do have a country.
Tim Muehlhoff: Because we still do have a country. All right. Now, here it is, Rick.
Rick Langer: I just want everyone to know I'm breathing. Three, three, three.
Tim Muehlhoff: Here we go. All right, here it is, the number one. I bet you if I gave you a clue, everybody would get it. It's two words, and the last word is down.
Rick Langer: Calm down.
Tim Muehlhoff: Calm down.
Rick Langer: Oh, I thought it was going to be, "I told you so."
Tim Muehlhoff: "No, calm down. Calm down. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Calm down. Hey. All right. We're okay. Calm down."
Rick Langer: And that's the worst.
Tim Muehlhoff: It's the worst because you're denying my emotions. It's almost like a superiority,
Rick Langer: Kind of rejecting the emotion.
Tim Muehlhoff: You're rejecting the emotions. And in a weird way, you are saying, "You're overreacting." I mean, it's kind of like-
Rick Langer: So that's a good point. It combines the other combination, yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: It's double coupon day. We just combined. Okay, so that's the top five, what not to say. Thank goodness we have also studied the other way to calm people down.
Rick Langer: Did these guys offer people therapy after they did this study on them?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, you know how this works? It's a two-way mirror. And you got people and you get them into a legitimate disagreement, and you're feeding them. So here we go. Top five in order. Okay, as well, these are things to say-
Rick Langer: of deescalating.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... of deescalating, okay? Number one, it's so simple, it's brilliant. "That's awful. That's awful."
"Dr. Muehlhoff, I studied for your test. I swear I studied for your test, and I still got a really bad grade."
"That's awful. I'm so sorry. That's awful." Right? Acknowledging from your perspective, it's an awful situation, right? You believe the country's going under based on this election. "Well, that's awful." Yeah. Second, "I can't imagine how frustrating that must be. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to make dinner and have a spouse come home and be late."
Rick Langer: Even if you really haven't come home and been late, right?
Tim Muehlhoff: Every bone in my body is wanting to ditch this acronym and jump right in, and to say, "No." But listen, we're setting the tone, we're lowering the temperature, so we can get to E.
Rick Langer: Okay, so this is helpful because we've been joking a bit about the frustration thing, but I do feel some of that. And I think part of it is, what you're really telling us is, how do you get to the point you can actually talk about this? Because when you're in the escalated level, you just won't be able to talk. So you want to get down to a point where you might actually have a conversation.
Tim Muehlhoff: Again, go back to the continuum. Are we upset? Are we angry? Are we enraged? If we're in the anger stage, meaningful conversation is going to be very, very difficult.
Rick Langer: So we're just dialing back, [inaudible 00:21:02].
Tim Muehlhoff: We're dialing it back so we can get to E. See, when I do these seminars, people are like, "Huh?" I said, remember, SAFE.
Rick Langer: E's coming. Okay, good. All right, I'll stop interrupting. I'm just getting a little stressed, so I want to make sure.
Tim Muehlhoff: I didn't pick an acronym, Saskatchewan.
Rick Langer: That's good.
Tim Muehlhoff: This is SAFE. We're going to get there.
Rick Langer: Got it, all right.
Tim Muehlhoff: But isn't it funny how the argument culture is like already, it's like, "No, no, no. I forget that. I want to..." So, okay, here's one, the third one. "You're right, we can do better. You're right, I can do better."
Rick Langer: So with the coming home late for dinner?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, "I can do better."
Rick Langer: "You're right. I can do better."
Tim Muehlhoff: "You know what? Yeah, I've been late. Or just walking in when you ask me to be home at 6:00 and I'm clocking in right at 6:00. I can do better."
"I can do a better test. I can write a better test. Let me take a look at this." Okay, next. "Thank you for telling me about this. I didn't realize that there are some people arguing that this could be the demise of the country and maybe even well-spoken people, well-educated people. You know what? Thank you for letting me know about this. I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for telling me that." Okay, here's the last one. And this isn't going to be a shocker. Paraphrase with emotion, not just paraphrase. Paraphrase can actually come across as belittling.
Rick Langer: Condescending.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, condescending. Okay. So let me get this straight, Rick. You think depending on the election, it could be the ruin of this country. Is that right? It's like, "Yeah." Times 10. with the emotion. If we don't put the emotion in, it has the inverse effect that we want it to.
Rick Langer: Yeah, that's interesting.
Tim Muehlhoff: Isn't that great? Yeah. "So what I'm hearing you say is that you're really concerned that this country that we both love is in danger of unraveling." And the person can come back and say, "Yes, I'm really scared that's going to happen."
"Okay, that's awful. I can't imagine how you deal with those kinds of emotions every day. That's an awful place to be." Right? Okay. Now one key principle, when we are looking at the five of how to deescalate. Low and slow. If you remember nothing else, keep your voice lower and keep it slow. Because otherwise, volume is an escalatory act and so is speed.
Rick Langer: So it's like the verbal equivalent of your breathing exercise.
Tim Muehlhoff: It is, yep.
Rick Langer: You say your words with that kind of peace.
Tim Muehlhoff: Low and soft. Okay, okay. So when I do-
Rick Langer: Do I get to get the [inaudible 00:23:43]?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yes, we're to the E. We're to the E. Oh, we're out of time.
Rick Langer: [inaudible 00:23:46].
Tim Muehlhoff: We're out of time.
Rick Langer: Just give me the E.
Tim Muehlhoff: Honestly, I do this with corporations, we do this with churches. I say to managers, "People don't get to walk into your store and demand anything."
"I want you to lower your prices right now. I think that's too expensive for banana bread. I'm going to pay half of that." No, E is equitable solutions. Equitable. It doesn't mean that because I'm trying to empathize with you, paraphrase with emotion, that I have to believe the country's going to unravel. I don't need to cave at every point. We know from conflict, that just drives it underground, and that can be some of the worst conflict that we have.
Let's take the political one. Equitable would mean, "Listen, I've not heard this position that the very fabric of our country is in danger with this upcoming presidential election. Could we do this? Could you give me who you think is the most articulate person? And let me give you someone that might disagree with that perspective. Could we do that?"
Rick Langer: "Would that be fair?"
Tim Muehlhoff: Equitable? Or I could say, depending on the relationship, it could be timing. "Give me the top two people you've been listening to that argue this." I read them. I come back and say, "Okay, I have to tell you. That was a little surprising. Some of that I really agree with. Do you mind if I give you two?" See, it's still equitable. I just didn't do that quid pro quo immediately. So the timing of it is up for grabs, but there comes a point where you do SAFE with me, it's just not me continually doing the SAFE acronym with you. I think the rule of reciprocation is it's totally legit to ask you to now turn and do that with me.
Rick Langer: [inaudible 00:25:44] me.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. So this is SAFE, deescalation. You've taken my life's work, and we distilled it into 22 minutes.
Rick Langer: 22 minutes, four letters. Wow.
Tim Muehlhoff: But we'll talk more about this on our website, winsomeconviction.com, because we do need to learn in today's crazy world how to deescalate ourselves and conversations.
Rick Langer: I appreciate this, Tim, in terms of the practicality, because as we were playing around with it, just talking about it, it really does come to mind how often we get in an escalation cycle. And even having the vocabulary to identify it, I feel myself escalating. And then to think, "What do I do to dial it back?" And give us your five little slow-me-down kind of deescalate as opposed to escalate.
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, the ones to say?
Rick Langer: Yeah, the ones to say.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, very quickly. That's awful.
Rick Langer: Give us the renew.
Tim Muehlhoff: I can't imagine how frustrating that must be. You're right, I can do better. Thank you for telling me about this. And then last, paraphrase with emotions, put the emotions in there. I'm hearing you say this, and that must be a very difficult place to be.
Rick Langer: Yeah, that's got to be really hard.
Tim Muehlhoff: It's got to be.
Rick Langer: When you feel [inaudible 00:26:53].
Tim Muehlhoff: And that's why we got to deescalate ourselves first. Be in a right frame of mind to have this conversation.
Rick Langer: All right. Good job, man. Well, thank you for joining us for this episode of the Winsome Conviction Podcast. I feel better. When in doubt, breathe a lot, but I'm not going to do it again here on the podcast. We're glad you joined us. We'd love to have you subscribe and join us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. The other thing we'd love to have you do is go to the winsomeconviction.com website. Check things out there. We have a lot of resources there. Plus, we'd love to hear from you. So there's a place there that you can shoot us an email, a note if there's things you'd love to hear us talk about.
Tim Muehlhoff: Submit questions.
Rick Langer: Submit questions, talk about things that are important to you. We'd also love to have you sign up for quarterly newsletters, so we can keep in touch on some important things that we're a part of. So thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Winsome Conviction.
