Weekly Cultural Update: Traditional Dating Apps; Jehovah's Witnesses Blood Policy Shift; Pope Leo in France; Smartwatches for Kids in China

Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: [upbeat music] New dating apps are said to be promoting traditional values. The Jehovah's Witnesses rescind some of their prohibitions on blood transfusions. Pope Leo draws huge crowds in France. Does this suggest that French secularism may be on the wane? And why parents in China are giving their kids scaled down smartwatches instead of smartphones. These are the stories that we'll get into, and we'll take some of your questions, really good ones as always. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and sitting in for Sean today is my colleague in theology at Biola, Dr. Erik Thoennes. This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Erik, thanks so much for hanging with us today, and very much looking forward to your comments on some of these stories. You sent some good ones, and we got some really good questions too.

Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott. Always good to be with you.

Scott Rae: All right. Here's story number one, is about traditional values coming out in dating apps. Earlier this week, the Match Group, owner of several dating apps, relaunched a new app that they have called Upward. It was formerly a Christian dating app, but is advertised as a dating app for anyone who wants to settle down, as they put it, the old-fashioned way. The company's press release puts it like this is modern courtship in action. Women are clear about their standards, men pursue with purpose, and both move toward marriage together." Match calls the Upward's audience next gen traditionalists. And after doing, after doing a deep dive on their various apps, what one of the things that stood out to them was a feature of Upward. Said these people want to get married and have kids, not probably or eventually, but seriously and soon. When Match surveyed couples who had met on Upward, they found that the average time from match to marriage was less than a year. Now, this echoes data from the Kinsey Institute published last month on singles in America. 72% of Gen Z participants, more than any other generation, said they want to get married. In addition, 70% of Gen Z men indicated that women should be primary caregivers for their children. And a healthy percentage of Gen Z women agreed, though not quite to that degree. Even the feminist dating app Bumble, around since 2014, has changed its mode of operation. It initially branded itself by the premise that women message the man first. But then the company announced last month that many women no longer want the duty of initiating. Men are now allowed to start the conversation. As they, as the article puts it, Bumble read the cultural winds, and the winds apparently were traditional. All right, Erik, this is the Well, I took this story first because this is the one I am most interested to hear your take on.

Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]

Scott Rae: So tell me what you thought of this.

Erik Thoennes: Oh, I found it fascinating on several levels. It what... Because there does seem to be such a backlash in so many ways to the way things have gone to the extreme at times, where, especially among the younger generation, and often among men in particular, but now women too, there is a return to what's being called traditional. And authors like the one of this article i, is struggling with understanding how, as she says it, we could be so regressive in values. And it is interesting how stereotypical and sort of simplistic some of these efforts are. But at the same time, I just find it fascinating with the move to throwing off any of the traditional ways of thinking about marriage or relationships or masculinity or femininity. Now we have a return to what seems like this nostalgic effort to get back to something stable and somewhat predictable. And, but what's fascinating, and I, again, you know, when we do this, Scott, it's amazing. I'd have to credit it to God somehow orchestrating things. All our articles today, to me, get back to the issue of autonomy, because the way the author of this article tries to explain this desire for dating apps not just being about hooking up, but actually getting married and being very serious [chuckles] about that, is that, well, if that's what they want, what can I say about their freedom of choice? Because freedom of choice now is the thing. So, [chuckles] so you can't badmouth freedom of choice, even if it's something you think is hopelessly traditional. So [chuckles] I just found it really interesting with the, a lot of the terms that were used in this article. You know, the looks macking, maxing thing and the next gen traditionalists and all these ways of thinking about things in traditional ways that seem radically new.

Scott Rae: Yeah. You know, I I've reflected on this, back to a conversation I had with one of my kids some time ago, where he was, maybe the best way to put it is he was expressing some ambivalence about whether he wanted to have kids. And, you know, I think he was, you know, he was thinking about, you know, all the, you know, all the effort and all the costs and all the things that go into parenting today. And I remember, you know, I just find... I finally just had to have a sort of what I thought was a come to Jesus moment with him, where I, where I just said, "You know, you need to know that by far the hardest thing I've ever done was to be dad to you and your brothers. But nothing else has even come remotely close to that in my life to being as satisfying-" And as huge a contribution to my flourishing as a person than being your dad. And I said, "Nothing that I've accomplished professionally even remotely compares to the joy and fulfillment and satisfaction of being your dad." And now you know, thankfully, he didn't change his tune immediately on that, but he has changed his tune on that. And, you know, so we're looking forward at some point to a grandchild at at some point in the foreseeable future. But, you know, I think you also raise, you raise a really good point about how the traditional sort of we call the trad wife or the trad view is often, I think, it's compared to something akin to the Stepford Wives. Who, you know, some of our listeners may be too young to appreciate that reference, but it was, you know, the Stepford Wives were,

Scott Rae: women who had been programmed essentially to accept a certain, a almost, hyper-submissive, what I would call almost a non-person role in their marriages and their families. And, you know, the traditional view, I think, has nothing to do with that vision. Now the other thing I found interesting, and I would be interested in your take on this too, is it said a third of Gen Z mens, men that were surveyed, and 20% of Gen Z women say that a woman should obey her husband. Now, I, you know, I ... Now, I wanna be clear about what we mean by that. In fact, I had a conversation with one of my kids not that long ago trying to clarify that because he had, he had reservations about that. And I don't think that that gives a man a claim on a woman for such submission. Rather, what the Bible, what the Bible's really clear about is the husband's role is to love her with this sort of astounding, unconditional, sort of over the top love like Christ loved the church. So I think, I think that, I found that to be a really striking statistic. But I I wonder if it's being, if it's being actually properly understood with the corresponding obligations on the husbands.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah, that's a great point. And yeah, I'm just fascinated by this effort to hold onto something that I think God creates us to be, whether it's masculine or feminine or male and female in the way God intends our wonderful differences to be displayed. And you know, this looksmaxing now with men where they're literally hurting themselves. They'll take hammers to their jaws to have some sort of masculine looking jawline. It's insane. And how about the term in this article, chivalrymaxing? [laughs]

Scott Rae: I love that term. [laughs]

Erik Thoennes: Where where there's a longing for men to have a chivalrous, honoring attitude toward women because there's so much confusion about even what a man or a woman is that I ... There's a deep longing for a woman to find a man who's responsible and puts her before himself. And can you imagine as initiates the conversation on these a, dating apps? That that's unheard of, but that's a longing that they have. And so what's wild, though, about it is both ends of the spectrum on these movements get into some caricatures that can be so simplistic. So you think of the wild gender obliteration side where it seems like every drag queen or transgendered person ends up being a caricature of a female person, right? A a woman. And on the other end, you've got this, you know, you gotta have this kinda jawline. And so both ends of the spectrum in these movements get into simplistic caricatures, but they're both longing for something, I think, that God has put deep within us. And the obedience thing, you're right, that's such an ugly word. But it's so important to back up and think, well, one of the key characteristics in the Bible of a disciple of Jesus is that we obey him. So that's where the obedience starts, among all of God's people obeying our Lord. And then the Bible commands all of us to obey our leaders in the church. And so this isn't some weird thing exclusive to women. This is at the core of discipleship. Jesus says, "If you love me, you'll obey me. You'll do what I say." And so obedience in the right way biblically, like you say, is a life-giving practice for us under the lordship of Christ ultimately. And so to have a a headship and submission that is for the good of the one that is submitting is so radically different than the world thinks about these things.

Scott Rae: Yeah. And, we often lose sight of the fact that Ephesians 5:21 says, you know, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."

Erik Thoennes: Right. And then it gets specific.

Scott Rae: And then it goes on to specify-

Erik Thoennes: Yes

Scott Rae: ... In a little more ... Yeah. I've been, I've been opening the car door for my wife for more than 42 years.

Erik Thoennes: Good for you.

Scott Rae: And she's never, she's never once complained about it. [laughs]

Erik Thoennes: Well, I was gonna say that. You know, you're so right about raising children has been by far the hardest but most sanctifying thing I've ever done. And like you say, the most rewarding. And that doesn't mean even now things are ideal, but that's really not the main goal. The main goal is to be faithful and grow in all the ways God wants us to and do everything we can for our kids to be raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. And now- A lot, I think a lot of people would say, "Well, my marriage has been that for me even more than my kids." But you and I are married to wonderfully life-giving wives who [laughs] we are, we tend to be the challenge more than they are

Scott Rae: Absolutely

Erik Thoennes: ... So I think for us, it is our kids that have offered this amazing, nurturing, sanctifying-

Scott Rae: Yeah

Erik Thoennes: ... Experience.

Scott Rae: Maybe the best way to put it, is I would say my family-

Erik Thoennes: Yes, sure

Scott Rae: ... Has been the most satisfying and flourishing-

Erik Thoennes: Sure

Scott Rae: ... Thing. I would, I would never want to downplay the fulfillment that I've gotten from being married to this-

Erik Thoennes: Right

Scott Rae: ... Wonderful woman who is, as my mentor used to put it, he said, [laughs] "That woman is the best thing this side of salvation to happen to you."

Erik Thoennes: [laughs] Amen.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Erik Thoennes: Massive gift.

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah, ... But the thing about the kids is you and Sally are, and Don and I are, we're partners. We're a team in this.

Scott Rae: That's right.

Erik Thoennes: And so that, and having kids has been, without a doubt, the most sanctifying thing in our marriage. That's been our biggest area of disagreement at times, and so it's been so enriching and difficult, but rewarding at the same time.

Scott Rae: Hear Anything else on this story?

Erik Thoennes: No, I yeah, I think the last thing would be, you know, you and I weren't alive when first wave feminism started, but we weren't much behind that. But it's... I just, I'm heartbroken for, I think, what I perceive the position women are in in light of third, especially third wave feminism where... I mean, I read an article once that said if a woman's desire is to stay home and raise children and keep a home, she's, it's immoral because she's betraying all the women before her that fought for her to be able to do other things besides that. And so there ends up being so much pressure on a woman to not settle for primarily being a homemaker and raising children and pouring into what that incredible home is and family is, to the point where if she settles for that and isn't a CEO as well, then she's a failure. And I think it must be exhausting for women to have to feel like they're betraying their gender if they don't do everything that a woman should be doing in the eyes of third wave feminism. So I I feel like some of this is, I, is it okay if I just want something that to the world seems like a cop-out and too simple? And I think men should be free to [laughs] have that sort of thing, too. And so I just think it's fascinating that things God implants within us, when we pursue those things, it's the most freeing thing.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I say so so much for autonomy, you know, being the order of the day-

Erik Thoennes: Yes

Scott Rae: ... When, you know, some some choices obviously are out of bounds for second and third wave feminists.

Erik Thoennes: Right.

Scott Rae: I wonder, too, Eric, just to, and then, and then we'll move along here. I wonder if the ease with which divorce takes place today has something to do with women's feeling more of a need for their own financial independence. And I just, I wonder if, you know, I know for both of us, you know, the idea of us leaving our wives has, is com- that's off the table.

Erik Thoennes: Yep.

Scott Rae: And they have, you know, they have a trust that, you know, they can pursue the things that that fulfill them, and are best for our family, but without having a fear that they're ever gonna be on their own financially.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: And so I think that that puts, I think that's put the onus on men as well to provide that same kind of, security, that I think many are looking for. All right.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: Second-

Erik Thoennes: Which means attraction, in both directions, needs to be more than attractiveness superficially. That is this person-

Scott Rae: For sure

Erik Thoennes: ... A responsible man that I can respect and have trust in? You're exactly right.

Scott Rae: All right. Earlier this week, the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, you may wonder what we're, what we're doing actually talking about the Jehovah's Witnesses, but they, it was a really significant decision. They announced, this week that the decision to accept red blood cells, white cells, plasma, and platelets from another person's blood is a matter of personal conscience, no longer prohibited. Likewise, they must decide whether or not to donate blood for the purpose of providing those components to be used by another person. They may also store their own blood for medical use for themselves if needed, which is a rescinding a huge, obstacle to Jehovah's Witness getting really good medical care in hospitals around the country. However, the core doctrine that they must abstain from whole blood transfusions, and they cite Acts 15:20 on that, I'm interested to hear, to hear your take on that, has not changed. Now, they haven't accepted everything, but I think it's a good step in the right direction, in my view. Now, I've got a couple cases that I consulted with, and when I was doing hospital ethics consulting at the bedside, that involved Jehovah's Witnesses, both of which, were chilling in the effect on everybody involved. I'll share those in just a second, but Eric, I'm interested in particular your comments on the interpretation of that text that they cite, that thou you shall abstain from blood, from Acts 15, and just your general impressions about the Jehovah's Witnesses rescinding some of these prohibitions.

Erik Thoennes: Well, yeah, so I always appreciate it when people are taking Bible passages seriously, and And trying to get at the literal meaning and not explain it away because it may cost you your life if you obey it, right? So on the one hand, I wanna say, all right, way to take the Bible seriously. Way to not dismiss it and say, "Well, if someone's life is at stake, of course, we're gonna do this transfusion in spite of this Bible passage." So I just wanna get that on the table, that although I obviously have significant disagreements with core doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses, especially regarding the person of Christ and the Trinity and how we're saved, I I respect anybody who wants to take a Bible passage seriously. And so then understanding what's going on there in Acts 15 in the Jerusalem Council is very important. And What we've got here is Jews and Gentiles trying to live together in a unified way, coming out of drastically different backgrounds and traditions, where so much of the pagan practices of the Gentiles is now part of the lives of these Jews who can't imagine even having a relationship with a pagan, never a former pagan, rather, never mind having things that they did as part of their worship now part of my life. And so I think the meat sacrifice to idols issue is a very similar one going on here. But the Jerusalem Council, they boil it down to not even eating things polluted by idols, fleeing sexual immorality, not eating things that have been strangled, and from blood. And I think those are primarily things out of deference for the Jewish believers, not giving them too much to deal with because the dietary restrictions are lifted now from the Old Covenant and other things that they've just seen as essential, including circumcision, you could add, that they're doing everything they can to wisely bring about this coming together of Jews and Gentiles in ways where you're not putting stumbling blocks before the Jews needlessly, but you're also not putting burdens on the Gentiles. And so that's why I think transfusions and the particular, like a rare steak, for instance, isn't something I avoid because I think those are issues related to the Jerusalem Council trying to bring Jews and Gentiles together in that way.

Scott Rae: Yeah. I think the, I, you know, in both of these cases that I'm gonna describe in a minute, I have been very tempted to open the scripture to Acts 15:20 and explain what I think the correct understanding of that is, just like you explained. And I, you know, I don't think, you know, since blood transfusions were not even a possibility-

Erik Thoennes: Right

Scott Rae: ... In the New Testament world, it's a little challenging to think that the New Testament writers had anything like that in view. And whether that's a valid application or not, I think is actually the question. So let me just recount for our listeners really briefly. Within the first month after I'd been hired at one of these hospitals up in the San Fernando Valley to do ethics consultations, we had a 27-year-old man who had been hit by a car on his bicycle and was not wearing a helmet, and sur-survived it, but was bleeding into his brain. And he needed, he needed, you know, he needed, you know, platelet's plasma, he needed red bloods, he needed everything. And his wife came in... Came into the hospital with her two-year-old child and obviously pregnant with their second, and showed his Jehovah's Witness card that said he was refusing blood transfusions, blood products on his behalf. And we, didn't know quite what to do with that because everything, all the documentation seemed to be in order. But Eric, we tried everything to figure out a way where we could save this guy's life, because without the blood products, he was gonna die. And so watching this otherwise perfectly healthy with a perfectly fixable condition, refuse, his wife refused this for him, with these two dependent children. This the nurses who cared for this guy, they needed a major set of inservices in the aftermath of this to process it, because eventually, we could have gone to court, but of course, generally don't rule in favor of adults, in favor of the hospitals when it's adults in view. And so our only, our only real option was to keep him comfortable while we allowed him to die within our hospital setting. Utterly tragic. The second one I was even more troubling. This was a six-year-old child who had a heart condition that needed, all these blood products in order to be successfully treated. And the parents, on his behalf, refused those. And we said, "Well, this is different than an adult because it's, because it's a child who obviously can't make these decisions for himself." And so we took this to court, and the court ruled in our favor. And we did what we thought was the right thing by forcing the blood transfusion and the blood products in-into the child against the wishes of the parents. But we, but we were convinced that the parents were not acting in the child's best interests. What we discovered was that it was a lot more complicated than we thought. And the really tragic part is upon discharge, you'll never guess what the parents did. Threat-threatened with exile from their Jehovah's Witness community and eternal consequences, they put the child up for adoption upon discharge.

Scott Rae: We could, we could hardly believe this was what had happened. And it made us, it made us It made us ask questions about whether we were right to go to court. I'm convinced that we were. It's just this was an unin-unintended, unanticipated consequence that threw us off for a major loop. And so if rescinding some of these prohibitions... Actually, they're not rescinding them technically. They're just saying they're a matter of conscience. Can prevent scenarios like this from happening in the future, I am all for this. And frankly, I wish they would go further and allow whole bre-whole blo-blood transfusions to be a matter of conscience as well.

Erik Thoennes: Wow.

Scott Rae: Any thoughts on that before

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Well both of those are tragic, Scott. But I must say, as hard as it is to hear they gave him up for adoption, how heartbreaking that is, I almost think, wow, if that, if that boy could be with parents who won't have such aberrant ideas the rest of his life affecting his life, that's a win. [laughs] And

Scott Rae: Yeah

Erik Thoennes: ... So as as hard as that is, I don't think that end to that is as tragic as it could've been. Wow. That's just astounding. Yeah go ahead.

Scott Rae: We didn't, we didn't consider that. We didn't consider that angle on

Erik Thoennes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... In the hospital setting. 'cause I think most of us, we were so shocked. But nobody really knew what to make of it or what to do about it, 'cause obvious- once they were discharged, they were out of our hands. There was nothing more we could've done. But it made us, yeah... I don't think it made us think twice about going to court, but we just wondered, you know, in the have we done the best thing in the long haul? And maybe so. I don't know what happened to this child or to the parents, if they lived to regret that. I would hope that they did. And I my hope is that the child landed on his feet with a good family.

Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: That'd be the hope.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: All right, anything else you want to add to this?

Erik Thoennes: I don't think so.

Scott Rae: All right. Here's the third one. This is... I found, I found this third story incredibly encouraging. And the article is titled Pope Leo and the French Resistance, which I love. This is from The Wall Street Journal, describing Pope Leo's astounding reception that he got on his recent visit to France late last week. More than 800,000 people turned out for the papal mass in Paris earlier this week. That's almost as many people who turn out for the last day of the Tour de France.

Erik Thoennes: [laughs]

Scott Rae: Just a few days before, over 80,000 people attended a prayer vigil at a major Paris soccer stadium. The article suggests that it, quote, "It seems that Pope Leo has a relevance to modern France that few people anticipated." Here's how the article describes it. I love the way they put this. "Today, the church in France is experiencing something very unique. It is transitioning from a Christianity that was once inherited to a Christianity that is chosen."

Scott Rae: That makes me think that maybe resurgence, maybe revival might be an accurate term to describe this. Now, thinking like this among these new French Christians marks a massive shift for them and for the nation of France. 'Cause France has been well known for centuries for the, what I would call their aggressive secularism, dating back to the French Revolution, which marked a permanent rupture in the relationship between the church and the rest of the country. But that seems to be changing. Signs of Christian, maybe maybe calling it revival might be okay, are evident. Over 13,000 adults were baptized last year, more than three times the number in 2019. And here's the part that's most encouraging. Teenagers, more than 15,000 teenagers have been baptized in the last two years alone. Now, to be fair, the nones, N-O-N-E-S, claiming no religious affiliation, still outnumber Catholics by a large margin. And just in the last two years, France has legalized both abortion and assisted suicide euthanasia, showing, I think, the public influence of the Catholic Church is waning and has been for some time. But there are also, I think these... The the signs that we des- we're describing here are signs of disenchantment with secularism, and r-recognizing that it has not delivered on the promises that it has offered. In fact, President Macron, in greeting the Pope, has maintained that French secularism in no way negates religion, which is, you know, the for a long time in France, Eric, as you know, secularism and religion were often not uttered together in the same sentence, and in, and in most cases considered an oxymoron that they could actually be spoken of together like this. So I found this very encouraging, and there's a, there's a lot to this, but I think help us, help us think theologically about this. What, what's your take on this?

Erik Thoennes: Well, [laughs] again, I'm always noticing these themes. Who would've thought that our first discussion about dating apps and a seeming-

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Erik Thoennes: ... Christian revival in France have something to do with each other? But I really [laughs] think they do. It's a longing for something of substance, a something that's solid, something that has a sense of more than the immediate and the shallow and the superficial. And so I think the dating [laughs] app story in this one Really do get back to the same basis of a deep longing in us for something we can stand on that's solid, that has stood the test of time. And, you know, we get laughed at as hopeless conservatives and traditionalists at times, but the best versions of those resonate with something in the human heart that God has put there. And so I am very encouraged by this. It's hard to imagine a more intentionally secular anti-religious nation than France. I have friends who were missionaries there, and they say, "Well, everybody thinks about unreached people groups." And one of my friends, he would say, "France is about as unreached as you get when you think about the, how secularized it is." I mean, in the late 1700s, they turned Notre Dame Cathedral into a temple of philosophy and reason and secularism, and they de-Christianized, they removed the symbols. They had an opera singer who received homage as the

Erik Thoennes: woman of liberty and freedom of thought and those things. And so [chuckles] again, it's a return to that. But what I found interesting thinking about this conversation with you, someone who is a, is a philosopher primarily in your focus and an ethicist, and so you've spent so much of your life helping especially Christians value reason more than we typically have. But here it is run amok, right? Here in France [chuckles] it's... There's no limits on the potential for human reason. It... And it becomes the religion. So it's not the absence of religion or worship, it's just a different version of it focused on human reason and human autonomy again, rather... And the way that this article even talked about it was like, "This is crazy, isn't it? But hey, they're exercising their freedom. Who, so who are we to put it down?" Just like the dating apps, right?

Scott Rae: That's right.

Erik Thoennes: So [chuckles] it was just fascinating. But I would, I would love to hear from you as a philosopher who've, who have... I mean, you were part of a movement coming out of sort of a fundamentalist leftover that could be anti-intellectual, trying to get Christians to value reason and the life of the mind. You were one of the key leaders in a massive resurgence in that in the world of Christian philosophy. And so I'd love your thoughts about,

Erik Thoennes: no limits on human reason and philosophy. I mean, Notre Dame became a temple to reason, a temple to philosophy as the answer to everything. And so I just was thinking about talking to you about this as someone who's championed the place of thinking well as Christians, but the limits we have to have on that at the same time.

Scott Rae: Well, there's no doubt that theologically, our reason and rationality is subject to the general effects of sin like every other part of our constitution.

Erik Thoennes: [laughs]

Scott Rae: And that is the lenses through which we see the world are cloudier than we would like to think. And one of the... I think one of the lessons of modernity has been the limits on reason alone to provide any sense of transcendence or meaning or purpose or satisfying the deepest longings that human beings have. Those I think as you point out, are built into us by a creative God who made us in His image. And so I think we, you know, what we've tried to do is not to, not to throw out reason and rationality and not to buy into the caricature of faith as blind faith, you know, where faith goes with the evidence, not against it. And faith is a trust in something for which we have good reasons, and we can't see it all, but we have good reasons for thinking that the scripture is reliable, that God exists, that Jesus is who He claimed to be, that He rose from the dead bodily like He said He did. Things like that, the foundations of our faith and what it... And the things you have to affirm to be Christian, I think are all rationally defensible. Now, we don't... You know, none of us were there at the empty tomb. We don't have, we don't have video of that. You know, and we don't have the original manuscripts of the Bible because I suspect we would worship them instead of worshiping the Savior. And you know, God does, God does not employ social media today to make Himself known. He actually did it, I think, in a far better way by becoming one of us Himself. So there are things that we have to take on faith, but it's a faith that goes with the evidence, not against it. And I think what we've... What we also tried to do is the other side of that coin too, is to critique the secularism for what it is, and that this enchantment with secularism is not a new thing, nor is it universal. And I'd say among the academic and the more highly educated that have more, they have more skin in the game with secularism than the average person might. That's a little tougher nut to crack. But all of this, I think, suggests a desire for something that transcends who I am and my own, and my own world that I'm living in. It's, it transcends. There's something bigger out there than than I, that I am. Bigger for meaning, purpose, for morality. And I think the... What what some of this reaction in France tells me, Eric, is that the project of creating your own sense of purpose and meaning might be viewed as a little bit overrated. And I often, I often describe this as somewhat akin to trying to find your way with a compass that's always pointing at yourself. You know? It's not gonna, that's not gonna help you. Now, thinking biblically about this a bit, I'm reminded of Solomon's reflections in Ecclesiastes, particularly in chapter two, where Solomon tries everything under the sun to try and find self-fulfillment. And I mean, he said, "I will test my, I will test you with pleasure. I undertook great projects. I denied myself nothing my eyes desired. I refused no pleasure. My heart took delight at everything. Yet when I surveyed that all my hands had done what I had told to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind, and nothing was gained under the sun." I think what he means by that, if I could put it in a colloquial sense, that the search for self-fulfillment that focuses entirely on the self is ultimately self-defeating. And that's why the Bible calls us to to look outside of ourselves, to, you know, take up our cross, to deny ourselves, take up our cross to follow Jesus, and that it's in, it's in serving one another and the mutual service to the body of Christ and to the larger community that ultimately brings us our sense of fulfillment. And that's that, it's that connection to something that's transcendent, that that is bigger than what we are, that we are a part of something that's a lot bigger than who we are and what our projects are, is that it's so significant to giving us that sense of meaning and purpose. Not to mention, it gives us sort of the grand says who when it comes to matters of morality.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. I, you know, when you put yourself at the center of the universe, you always have a sneaking suspicion you don't belong there.

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Erik Thoennes: And it leads to great insecurity. You know, one of my favorite philosophers is the boxer Mike Tyson, and he bit off a piece of Evander Holyfield's ears and had to go for counseling. And I remember to get his boxing license back, he had to go for six months of counseling. And he came out and a reporter asked him, "What, what'd you learn about yourself, Mike?" And he said, "I learned two very important things. One, I have absolutely no self-esteem, and two, I may be the biggest egomaniac on the planet." And both of those things are true. And it is amazing that the most insecure people are the ones who are most self-absorbed. And when Jesus says it's better to give than to receive, and when Paul says, [lips smack] "Don't look out for your own interests but for the interests of others. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit," it's the best way to live. It's the most freeing thing to do to get your eyes off of a self-absorption and start looking to others and ultimately to God to find your meaning and significance in life. It, it's so true. [laughs] And so again, there's this longing. And it is interesting to me that traditions that display the tradition from which they come are getting a lot of traction now. It... So there's a move among evangelicals to more liturgical denominations and even Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, in large part because what we would consider at times trappings of traditionalism are actually quite appealing because it shows something way bigger than ourselves that we get to be a part of.

Scott Rae: Yeah, no, that's one of the reasons my wife and I have been attending an Anglican church-

Erik Thoennes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... You know, for exactly that liturgical trition, tradition and being a part of something that's existed for centuries.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah.

Scott Rae: I mean, the la... Two weeks ago in our church, our pastor cited a prayer that was written in the 500s- [laughs]

Erik Thoennes: Yeah

Scott Rae: ... And had been around for a very long time. So.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. You know, I, as you know, I start most of my classes every class session with singing a hymn with a worshipful heart. And we'll sing Be Thou My Vision, and I'll say, "This was written in the eighth century. How does that make you feel?"

Scott Rae: Yeah.

Erik Thoennes: Especially in an academic setting where we live, we disagree about so many things. Our students can get the impression that scholars can't agree on anything. And then we sing a hymn from the eighth century and we say, "This guy knew Jesus, didn't he?" [laughs] And he's a, he's obviously worshiping the same God we are, isn't he? Isn't that amazing? We have such fundamental agreement with someone, and every other way is so different than we are, but we've got a beautiful unity in that.

Scott Rae: Hear No, very encouraging stuff. I,

Erik Thoennes: Yes

Scott Rae: ... I'm pretty pleased. And we'll keep you posted on other developments in France along this way. All right. Final story, Eric. This is, this is one you sent to me. I'm so glad you did. This is why parents in China are giving smart watches, not phones, to their kids. This is also from The Wall Street Journal, citing a new trend in kids and smart devices. Basically, it's this, a a quite scaled-down smartwatch instead of a cell phone. It still enables location tracking for parents. It's got a chat feature. It's a camera. You can post brief updates and comment on posts. It's even got a pay feature that enables parents to load money on it. But the main thing that's missing is the 24/7 access to the internet that's characteristic of smartphones. It's a drastically scaled-down version, if I understand it correctly, of social media. In the first half of this year, they've sold over a billion dollars' worth of these watches, called the Little Genius. Now, I think the main, the main, the main benefit of this, and it's actually not little nor is it genius, I'd say, but,

Erik Thoennes: [laughs] Exactly. [laughs]

Scott Rae: But this feels safer than a smartphone with unrestricted access to the internet Parents can still manage who's on their kid's contact list. They can control which apps and games they use. Now, I think the pressu- parents probably still feel pressure to get this watch for kids. It's a bit bulky for them to wear, but there's no doubt that it's become a thing. Whether it's a good sign or not so much, I think probably maybe the jury's still out on that, but I think maybe a good step, in the right direction on this. So Eric, what's your take on this? This obviously got your attention.

Erik Thoennes: It did

Scott Rae: ... Is this a good sign or maybe not so much?

Erik Thoennes: Well, yeah, I'm glad you looked at the picture obviously and said it's not little or ingenious-

Scott Rae: [laughs] No

Erik Thoennes: ... 'cause it's a giant old watch, you know?

Scott Rae: It is.

Erik Thoennes: It ain't cool at all looking, in my opinion. But what's interesting about it is I bet the parents actually enjoy how conspicuous it is because it probably will be a warning to anyone wanting to snatch your kid that, "Oh,

Scott Rae: Indeed

Erik Thoennes: ... "they're gonna have a tracking device on the kid." [laughs] So that's probably part of the attraction of the gaudy nature of it. But it's just fascinating to me the predicament parents feel like they're in now and are in many ways between, on one hand, realizing you hand your kid a phone, and like I've said to you before, I'd rather hand my kid a loaded gun than an unfiltered cell phone. And, [laughs] and, I just can't imagine just giving a child access to all that's out there, the predators out there to start with. And so, there, and then this predicament, but they also want their kid to be connected primarily to them. One of the parents said, "Oh, I never let my child out of my sight. This is just in case he gets lost or I turn around and he's gone." And so it's this hovering, this nonstop surveillance and presence with your child, and it actually made me grieve for the way kids are being raised now, and understandably in many ways. And I know you had this experience well, and I don't want to be like a grumpy old man, but one of the best things in my formation as a man was feeling a bit of independence as a kid when I'd go out and play. And my mom knew I was somewhere in the neighborhood, but she wasn't [laughs] on top of me all the time. And that sort of freedom to have to be somewhat resourceful and solve an argument myself and shake off a skinned knee without my mom being there to do it, and in developing some sort of independence and sense of needing to solve my own problems, it was so incredibly important in who I became without being constantly connected. And to this day, to be just walking through a city and having to figure things out in another country or something is just a thrill to me. I love that feeling. And most kids grow up never feeling the sense of I'm on my bike, my mom doesn't know the exact location, and there's something good about that because I'm gonna have to grow up. And so it just made me sad for the way kids, not just in China, but all over the world are growing up now and we're so much more aware of so much of the evil in the world because of how connected we are. And that may be the evil's increased, you know, but it just made me sad for the way kids grow up now.

Scott Rae: Yeah. It's not an accident that the article is titled Why Helicopter Parents in China Buy Watches, Not Phones, for Their Kids.

Erik Thoennes: Right. Yeah.

Scott Rae: Which we're, you know, which if it's a good sign that they don't have phones, maybe not so good a sign that it's still helicopter parenting.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. It, it's a, it's a massive problem. And I adore my students, and I have so much respect for their families. But and just in general, young people I know these days, they lack a resourcefulness where you gotta find your own ride to the airport. You need to figure out where the pharmacy is in town. You you need to do these things. And even the way we travel now, we insulate ourselves on buses and cruises so that even when we travel, we're not getting probably the greatest benefit of travel [laughs] which is needing to learn a bit of the language and maybe eating some risky food and not having my tour guide keep me from actually getting immersed in the culture.

Scott Rae: Right.

Erik Thoennes: And so [laughs] we just like to eliminate as many of the challenges that actually are where the value of life is, and these big gaudy watches are just this image of that for me now.

Scott Rae: You know, Eric, I remember, you know, several years ago, I had a student who showed up on the first day of class and the last day, and none in between, and came to me on the last day of class. He didn't even show up for that class period. He came at the end of class on the last day of class [laughs] begging me to give him finals week to get a whole semester's worth of assignments in. And later that afternoon, his mother called me, and I was expecting the worst. But instead, I got a really pleasant surprise. You know what she said? She said, "Throw the book at him."

Erik Thoennes: [laughs] Way to go, Mom.

Scott Rae: "Don't, do not let him get away with this because he's been doing it all his life." And so I told him no, and he failed the course, and I think, I think he learned a really important lesson that he, you know, his mom I think had empowered him to get away with some of this stuff in the past, and she'd had enough and said, "This is not gonna happen." Now we wish that would've, you know, those limits would've been drawn quite a bit earlier in this young man's life, and he wouldn't have gotten to college and, you know, have felt so lost like this. But, I think the helicopter parenting thing I think this is, this in my view, this is hard to say as a, as a professor, but I think the main, the main benefit of college is probably not what takes place in the classroom. It's all the stuff that happens outside the classroom that gives students a relatively safe place to grow up and to face those responsibilities where, you know, if they make mistakes along the way, it's not, it's probably not fatal.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah, it's so true

Scott Rae: ... Yeah, you know, I, think this is an, this is an encouraging trend. I don't think these will take off in the West, because they are, they're bulky, they're not very attractive. As you put it, they're definitely not the cool device to wear, especially on a child for whom it's obviously larger than what should be on his wrist or her wrist at the same time. You know, but I think this is, you know, this, you know, we've cited before unfettered access to the internet and social media, I think, has well-documented harms to young kids. And if, you know, and maybe if this is a way to get kids off of that and to encourage more genuine community and what I call the IRL, in real life relationships for which we were all created, so maybe all the better.

Erik Thoennes: Yeah, but, I, it, the whole time I was reading the article I had this sort of creepy feeling that this is, we're talking about China, which is, it surveils its people more than any country in the world. And so you're trying to keep your kids safe from stuff on the internet, but you're actually opening them up to nonstop surveillance and every step they take is being tracked, and being fed into the [laughs] the massive world of the internet. So is that safer in the long run, is what I was wondering about. But

Scott Rae: Yeah

Erik Thoennes: ... Getting back to what you were saying-

Scott Rae: Good question

Erik Thoennes: ... Yeah, getting back to what you were saying about responsibility, I remember our mutual friend, Crawford Lorrits, I have so much admiration for him. I said, "Crawford, I keep getting students come to me wanting exceptions to the course," and they're always saying the same thing, "I'm hoping you can show me some grace. I'm hoping you can show me some grace," you know-

Scott Rae: [laughs]

Erik Thoennes: ... Playing the grace card in the Christian context. I said, "Crawford, what should I say to them?" And he said, "Eric, you tell them that when they say that to you are, they are asking you to allow them to stay mired in their mediocrity." [laughs]

Scott Rae: Very good. Very good.

Erik Thoennes: It was great. And it's true. You know, we tend to think the Christian thing is just, again, giving people the freedom to do whatever they want and not hold them, hold them responsible, but in the long run, that can be incredibly destructive to someone.

Scott Rae: It is.

Erik Thoennes: And so the loving thing is holding those standards so they learn those bigger life lessons you're talking about.

Scott Rae: Hear Good word on that. All right. Before we move to audience questions, I want to remind our listeners how much professors like Eric and I would love to have you come study with us at Talbot. You know, Eric teaches on the, at the undergraduate level. I teach mostly at the grad level. We have programs at the bachelor's and master's level in all sorts of disciplines, Old and New Testament, theology, marriage and family therapy, philosophy, pastoral ministry, spiritual formation. I think I got most of them. And if you want to learn more, visit biola.edu/talbot. That's biola.edu/talbot. All right. Eric, we have some really good questions here.

Scott Rae: Here's this first one, "I would love to hear a biblical take on church hopping. I've noticed a growing trend of people jumping around churches depending on what's working or not for them. When does our preference go too far in our consideration of what church to go to? I realize that this is something the New Testament Christians never had to consider." You're a pastor. You've been with the same church for what? 20 years?

Erik Thoennes: 28. I'm in my 28th.

Scott Rae: Yeah. So you're sort of, you're sort of a model of stability in one place.

Erik Thoennes: [laughs]

Scott Rae: So how would you answer this question?

Erik Thoennes: It's one of my greatest concerns. I, at, I get asked the kind of questions, "Well, the biggest problem in the church, biggest gap in the understanding," and sometimes I really think, generally speaking, the biggest gap in the understanding of Bible-believing Christians is the non-negotiable, absolute, essential nature of the local church in the life of the believer. Meaningful local church commitment, involvement, accountability, support is a non-negotiable New Testament teaching. But so many Christians who take the Bible seriously otherwise treat the church like 24 Hour Fitness, that it's there to meet my needs if I feel like it's meeting my needs, or if not, I'll just have a little Bible study with my friends. And so passages like, "Do not forsake the assembling together of saints as some are in the habit of doing, but all the more as you see the Day approaching, spurring one another on to love and good deeds," you think, "Oh, that could be my friends and me at Starbucks," right? No. That's assuming the local church context that has the authority of the local church, that has the right administration of the ordinances, that has church discipline as part of it, that represents the world with an address [laughs] that you go to. It... So if you need church discipline, and the Bible says, "If they don't listen to two or three witnesses, take them to the church," you have an identifiable church you can be taken to, right? [laughs] So many Christians don't have that kind of connection, so they're able to have the kind of care, support, nurturing, shepherding, and accountability and authority as well in their lives that they are required to have biblically and desperately need in their lives.

Scott Rae: Hear A couple comments on this. I think the person is right when they say that this is something New Testament Christians never had to consider. So the New Testament probably doesn't directly address- ... Church hopping, but it does directly address the need to be involved in a local body of believers that meets, formally as a church for public worship and that exists to equip the saints for the work of ministry. Now, I remember my mentor used to say, "If you find the perfect church, don't join it."

Erik Thoennes: [laughs]

Scott Rae: Because you will obviously ruin it.

Erik Thoennes: Right.

Scott Rae: And I would, I would suggest, too, it's not clear if this listener has kids, but my, our approach, my family's approach to church changed a bit when our kids came along, because at that point it was no longer about my wife and my needs. It was about where our kids were being nurtured and where they could flourish in their, in their developing, blossoming faith. So I think there, you know, there, are, there can be good reasons to leave churches. And, you know, not too often. But, I do think, you know, we jumped around a bit when our, when our kids were in middle school and high school because of where they were involved with their friends and with the particular youth ministry. All right.

Erik Thoennes: Listen to this Kevin, listen to this Kevin DeYoung quote. "I never met a Christian who was healthier, more mature, and more active in ministry by being apart from the church, but I have found the opposite to be invariably true. The weakest Christians are those least connected to the body, and the less involved they are, the more disconnected those following you will be. The man who attempts Christianity without the church shoots himself in the foot, shoots his children in the leg, and shoots his grandchildren in the heart."

Scott Rae: Touché. All right. Here's... I think we got time, we got time for one more here. I say, it goes like this. "You've discussed neutrality in the public square and how neutrality isn't possible. Can you speak to neutrality and why the culture is pushing for secularism in the name of neutrality? What do we do with the claims that having Christianity in schools is forcing religion on people?" it's really two somewhat separate questions, but related. Which, what do you think?

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Again, the autonomy question, giving people freedom. The freedom and autonomy are interesting, comparisons. But yeah, I think the kind of freedom people should have in a society like ours should allow for religious expression and not muzzle that, and, for the good of the church if, as well as for the good of people to think about ideas. And so I think, yeah, it's increasingly harder to try to stay neutral, not that that should be something we should aspire to anyway, because people are constantly asking us when they find out we're Christians what we believe about moral issues. And so we shouldn't equivocate in those moments like so often happens, and be clear about it, but do everything we can to pick our battles wisely, and most of all, get to Jesus when we talk to people.

Scott Rae: Yeah. In my, in my view, the claim of neutrality makes secularism more acceptable to a pluralistic culture. But neutrality is a myth, as we've talked about before, and I, and I know you agree. Secularism is a worldview with many characteristics of a religious one. And for myself, I don't think the public schools are the place to teach the Bible, mainly because I don't trust untrained teachers to teach the Christian faith. I want people teaching the Bible who actually believe that it's true and good and reliable. And that, in my view, that's the role of the church, not the public schools. Christian school is completely different. But in the public schools, you know, I don't want it forced down a Muslim or a Hindu kid any more than I would want the Quran forced down my own Christian kids.

Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: So I'd wanna be, I'd wanna be really careful of that. But the main, the main reason is because I just don't trust untrained people to teach the Bible, especially in a, in a setting where, our kids are involved. Any thoughts on that?

Erik Thoennes: Yeah. At the same time, and the same time there are subjects where talking about a Christian view and the Bible is necessary to do that discipline well in a, in a school setting.

Scott Rae: Right.

Erik Thoennes: So how can you teach US history? How can you teach a course in the world of ideas or politics even, or government, without bringing in Christian ideas that hopefully you understand well enough, so even if you don't believe them, you can teach them accurately and charitably? And so what I wouldn't wanna do is have secularism taught as the worldview in an effort not to overdo a religion and because, like, no one is without a worldview. No one is without a way of thinking about life. And so to be self-consciously teaching other ways of thinking accurately and charitably, whatever those other ways of thinking are, I think are important.

Scott Rae: Amen. That's a good corrective. Well, this has been great stuff today, Erik. Thanks so much for your, for being with us. Great contribution. Great insight as always.

Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott.

Scott Rae: And it's great to have you with us.

Erik Thoennes: Thank you, brother.

Scott Rae: This has been the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, coming to you from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we've got lots of programs. We'd encourage you to come study with us. And remember, contact, biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. You got questions or comments that you wanna relay to us, keep those questions coming. They are great questions. Email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. Please give us a rating on your podcast app if you enjoyed today's conversation, and, share it with your friends. And in the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]