10 Prophecies for Jesus?

Episode Transcript

Sean McDowell: [upbeat music] What are the top 10 prophecies from the Hebrew scriptures that point to Jesus? Our guest today is street evangelist Jeff Morgan, who grew up in a secular Jewish home, turned to New Age practices, and then became a follower of Yeshua, Jesus, at 46. He is here to walk us through the top 10 prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus, which are fulfilled in His life and His death. We've done shows before. This is the first time we've met in person. Thanks for coming to Biola's campus to talk about this.

Jeff Morgan: It is so good to be here with you, Sean. Am I, am I shorter than you thought I'd be?

Sean McDowell: You know what?

Jeff Morgan: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: Actually, I love when I see somebody eye to eye. I was like, "All right, cool." You know? [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: [laughs] It's what happens when you meet someone for the first time, but it's an honor to be here.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: We've had some great conversations in the past, but-

Sean McDowell: We have

Jeff Morgan: ... Before we get started-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Jeff Morgan: ... I have a, I have something for you.

Sean McDowell: All right.

Jeff Morgan: Let me, let me get it out here. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Okay. [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: Straight from Chinatown.

Sean McDowell: All right.

Jeff Morgan: Authentic with the warning label on the back with the, you know-

Sean McDowell: Oh, boy

Jeff Morgan: ... Cancerous chemicals in No, but here's

Sean McDowell: Okay. All right. Thank you.

Jeff Morgan: Take one.

Sean McDowell: All right. Take one out here.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah Give me one.

Sean McDowell: I'm gonna reach in to the middle.

Jeff Morgan: Give me one.

Sean McDowell: You want one too?

Jeff Morgan: Yeah give me one.

Sean McDowell: Okay. Got it.

Jeff Morgan: I want, I want two.

Sean McDowell: I'm gonna take that one.

Jeff Morgan: This might want, this might actually be empty. It might-

Sean McDowell: Are you serious?

Jeff Morgan: It might have fallen out. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Oh, that's funny.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We'll throw that back in there. Okay.

Jeff Morgan: 'Cause the only thing you can really be sure of with a fortune cookie, what you're getting-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Jeff Morgan: ... Is a cookie.

Sean McDowell: Okay. [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's all you know.

Jeff Morgan: And with that warning label on the back, I don't even really know if that's true or not, so.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: So open yours up.

Sean McDowell: Open it up?

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: All right. This thing is gonna go everywhere. Here we go. All right.

Jeff Morgan: All right. What does yours say?

Sean McDowell: Mine says, "There are big changes for you, but you will be happy."

Jeff Morgan: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: [laughs] That's what it says.

Jeff Morgan: "Others see you as a wise person."

Sean McDowell: Wow, that's deep.

Jeff Morgan: Dude, when I was younger, I would go to Chinese restaurants with my family.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: And I would always ask for extra fortune cookies because I'd open them until I found the one I wanted. And then I'd keep that one as kind of like hope for the future, and I think that that's kinda how a lot of people treat biblical prophecy. They look at it and say, "Well, if this fits my expectation and present moment need, then I'll believe it. But if it doesn't, something has to be different or change." And I think that's the way, you know, a lot of people look at biblical prophecy, and I just wanna make sure that we realize that the Tanakh itself, or the Old Testament, basically God trains ... On what to expect. And the fact that it doesn't happen maybe in our timeline or in our lifetime doesn't mean that He's not working and that we can't see it. So we can actually go to the text and test it for ourselves.

Sean McDowell: I love that. So rather than pick and choosing the ones we want, if we go to the text and let it speak-

Jeff Morgan: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... It's going to paint a picture, so to speak, of the Messiah that we see in Jesus.

Jeff Morgan: Totally. I mean, there's categories in there. There's real places, real timing-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Jeff Morgan: ... Patterns over time so that we know what to expect. And as we look back into specific prophecies, we can see that not only is the God of Israel working through specific prophecies and Jesus fulfilling them, that it's a process. And I've I hear it, I hear it all the time on the streets, you've heard it from some of your, Jewish guests before that, you know, Jesus can't be the Messiah because He didn't- ... Fulfill this and this. He didn't fulfill any prophecy. I've heard that, too, which is just mind-blowing.

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Jeff Morgan: ... But that it didn't all happen at once. And when you really look into the-

Sean McDowell: Good

Jeff Morgan: ... Patterns of the Hebrew scriptures, you realize nothing ever happens all at once.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: And so we're gonna, we're gonna go through that.

Sean McDowell: Good

Jeff Morgan: ... I don't know if I have time to get into, some of the, assumptions that are made within, Rabbinic Judaism-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Jeff Morgan: ... About prophecy.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: But it kinda sets the stage for what we're gonna be getting into.

Sean McDowell: If that's helpful to set it up, then lay the groundwork we need to have. And I want our audience to know that I had a suspicion of some of these prophecies you might select, but you come out of a secular Jewish home. You do street evangelism to Jews all the time.

Jeff Morgan: Right.

Sean McDowell: So this is really your lane. So kinda set us up with what we need to know before we dive into these 10.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah, it sounds good. And you know, yes, I do come a, from a secular Jewish family, but I had a very Jewish life. Very Jewish upbringing. It wasn't religious per se, but it was very Jewish identity focused. And I have a lot of guests on my show and friends who were Orthodox Jews and ultra-Orthodox Jews coming out of Orthodox Judaism to faith in Jesus.

Sean McDowell: That's amazing.

Jeff Morgan: Not leaving their Jewish identity behind, rather stepping into the promises of God for the Jewish people.

Sean McDowell: I love that. When I had you on last time, I think I referred to you as a former Jew and got a million emails. I was like, "I'm so sorry." [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: [laughs]

Sean McDowell: "I will walk that one back and not do it again."

Jeff Morgan: It's important.

Sean McDowell: So keep going.

Jeff Morgan: It's important because as Jewish people are automatically skeptical about the gospel and Jesus and those that preach the gospel simply because of, you know, hundreds of years of persecution- ... From the Church in the name of Jesus, and we know that that's not true Christianity, and true followers of Jesus wouldn't-

Sean McDowell: Amen

Jeff Morgan: ... Do those things. So there's also, there's a skepticism, and it's important to educate the Jewish people and let them know that this is a promise made to the Jewish people. Jesus said, "I've come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." And when Jewish people hear that, they say, "Wait a second. He came for us?" Yes, He came for us, but His message was universal, going to, back to Abraham, that through His, descendancy, through His line, the whole world will be blessed.

Sean McDowell: Love it.

Jeff Morgan: So there's an assumption within Rabbinic Judaism that when the Messiah comes, all prophecy's supposed to be filled at, fulfilled at once. World peace, Israel regathered, the temple

Sean McDowell: Yep

Jeff Morgan: ... And universal knowledge of the Torah. Now, we can debate whether those things are, some of those things are actually happening, which in my opinion is quite obvious. You have Israel regathered physically first.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, we do.

Jeff Morgan: And that's happening. You have 7 million Jews living in the land of Israel. Before 1948, that wasn't happening. I mean, we've been in exile for 2,000 years, and here we are once again in our own homeland. You have, the universal knowledge of Torah Come on. Come on, man. I mean, there's billions of Christians all over the world throughout the last two millennia who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because of Jesus, the Jew who, born in Bethlehem, came out of Nazareth, fulfilled Biblical prophecy, and has become the light to the nations. So we can debate whether some of these prophecies are actually happening or not, but that's not really how God works in the Tanakh, you know?

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: And if you take examples like Abraham, for instance, I love these examples. He give, he gets a massive promise, right? A great nation, your name will be great, blessings, not just for you, but for the whole entire world. And what happens? His descendants end up enslaved in Egypt, right? So you have, you can almost hear it, right, from the people. You know, Abraham can't be the one, right? Look at us. We're suffering, we're struggling, we're in Egypt, we're in bondage. He couldn't have been the one to, you know, where's the great nation, right? Exactly the opposite happened. So the problem isn't- ... Necessarily the promise, it's the expectation of the timing. Same thing-

Sean McDowell: Great distinction.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah, same thing with Moses, right? What should've taken 11 years to get from Egypt to, Kadesh Barnea or you know, into the Promised Land took 40 years, you know, because of the people's mistrust of the promise. You know, as it says in, Exodus 40, 14:11, "It is because there are no graves in Egypt that you've taken us away to die here in the wilderness. Would that we have died in Egypt. Let us choose a leader and go back," right? Listen to what the people of Israel are saying to the chosen one, chosen to deliver them out of Egypt. They complain, they resist, and they even talk about replacing Moses and stoning him. Can you believe it? They call Moses our father today. Talk about from rejection to acceptance, right? And you can hear the words, you know, "This can't be right. Brought us out of Egypt, it's the, it's a disaster. You know, he can't be the chosen one." So you have rejection and then fulfillment. Last one-

Sean McDowell: Love it, yeah

Jeff Morgan: ... Before we get into the prophecies.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: King David.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Right? What was he promised? An eternal throne, an eternal kingdom. "Your throne shall be established forever," you know, 2 Samuel 7. A forever kingdom, and what happens? The kingdom divides, the kings fail, and eventually everything falls apart, and the people go into exile. And you can almost hear it, right? David can't be the one given the promise. Look what happened to us. The kingdom's divided. We're in exile. We're suffering. We're struggling. So the same conclusion could be made about David, but again, the promise isn't the the problem isn't the promise, it's the expectation of the timing and the unfolding of the fulfillment, and that's exactly what I hear today, Sean, on the streets of Israel.

Sean McDowell: Same objections.

Jeff Morgan: Exactly.

Sean McDowell: Wow.

Jeff Morgan: Jesus can't be the Messiah. He didn't bring world peace. He didn't rebuild the Third Temple. He didn't gather the exiles, and he didn't bring univer- versal knowledge of the Torah. Okay, clearly happening. And after he came, things got worse, right? Rome annihilated us.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: You know, exiled us. We were dispersed throughout the world, right? Jesus can't be the Messiah. The opposite happened. But that's the same voice we've heard for 2,000 years from our Jewish people. Right? So even Elijah the prophet that people love and admire today, he says, "The people have forsaken Your covenant and killed Your prophets with the sword." This is our history. So instead of asking, like, did everything happen all at once, the better question is, did the fulfillment begin in the way the text describes? And that's what we're gonna be getting into today with these prophecies, because if it did, then rejecting Jesus before its fil- fullness, it's not a new thing. It's the- ... Biblical pattern.

Sean McDowell: Man, that is beautiful. I'm so glad you set it up that way. From the Scriptures themselves-

Jeff Morgan: Right

Sean McDowell: ... And if we see it rightly, we would expect the very things you described, which I think leads us to get into some of the specifics. And this first one's probably one of the most well-known fulfilled prophecies, but it makes sense to start here 'cause we're talking about the birth of Jesus. So tell us about Micah 5:2.

Jeff Morgan: It's a great, passage, and I think one that is overlooked, ... By most Jews as something that's just minor and something that's easy to fake. It's something that's easy to make up. But I'm gonna read the passage right here.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: In Hebrew, it's, Micah 5:1, but it says, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth from me one who is ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from old from ancient days." Okay? We have a location.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: Bethlehem.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: It's a small town, David's hometown, kinda inconspicuous, and this is pointing to a Davidic ruler, right? But then there's this Hebrew phrase in there that you can't get around. You can't, you can't avoid it. It says in Hebrew, "Miqdem me-yamme olam," and what that actually means is, in most translations, the most minimal translation that you can have from that Hebrew to English is, "From ancient times, from the days of old," right? That's the most minimum, right? But this is, this can also be translated as the days of eternity, right? And both of those fit, and they both can work. And so when you're reading this-

Sean McDowell: Interesting

Jeff Morgan: ... You're looking through that, and you're like, "That's not really typical language of a king." It pushes beyond normal origins for for

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Earthly ruler.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: A normal earthly ruler. So can we find a Messianic interpretation for this passage in Jewish history, in Rabbinic Judaism? Because that's important, and I bring up, Rabbinic Judaism not to say that we're in alignment, we agree with everything, but that the common objection is that Christian interpretation has never existed within Judaism, and you've heard this.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, I have.

Jeff Morgan: Ever.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Jeff Morgan: That's, and that's not true It's not true. It's within Jewish history. There may be, disagreements between rabbis, but the fact that... And I'll just bring up one here.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, give me an example.

Jeff Morgan: His name's Rashi.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: You've heard that name before.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki, an 11th century Jewish, commentator, one of the most respected voices in traditional Judaism. A lot of times when Jewish people read the Old Testament, they're reading it framed by Rashi's interpretation. You have the Old Testament in the middle, framed by Rashi's interpretation. So you go back and forth. What did I read? What does he say it means? And, what he says here, that this verse, Micah 5:2, refers to the Messiah, Son of David.

Sean McDowell: Wow.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah, and we know what Jesus was called in the New Testament, Son of David.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: You know? And that wasn't even debated during that time-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Whether He was called Son of David or whether He was Son of David. But this, the objection is that it's made is that it, this refers to King David. Okay?

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: King David.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: The response is, David's never described in this way. You can't choose your birthplace, right? And you, meaning, you can't choose your birthplace so that the response to the objection is, well, Jesus, you know, put himself there. And, but you can't choose where you're born. And the language here, it stretches beyond lineage, okay?

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: This is a ruler coming forth from Bethlehem, whose origins of our are are of old, of ancient days, or even eternity. So it stretches beyond normal lineage. So when we look at Jesus, He's born in Bethlehem. Matthew 2:1 says, "Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the king, in the days of Herod the king," you have here a birthplace, but you also have an additional bit of information that gives you a time period that you can actually test. Are there historians, scholars that that were writing at the time of Herod, that maybe wrote about him? And there are, right? And so the fulfillment of this prophecy, you have a specific birthplace, a Davidic line, and we can get into, you know, you've probably heard, "Well, Dav- you know, Jesus wasn't from the Davidic line 'cause He didn't have an earthly father." That's debatable, but this isn't for this podcast-

Sean McDowell: Sure. Sure

Jeff Morgan: ... And I have a great answer for it anyway. Kinda wanna get into it, but, there's an unexpected origin, you know, from this little inconspicuous town, and language beyond normal kingship. So that's how Jesus fulfills this prophecy. You could say, "Oh, it's a simple prophecy. He came outta Bethlehem. Anyone comes from Bethlehem. Anyone could've come outta Bethlehem." Yes, but

Jeff Morgan: you don't have anyone that came outta Bethlehem that says, "I'm the Messiah," and that's an important detail.

Sean McDowell: All right, before we move on to the second one, we're spending, I dunno, five, six minutes on each one of these. If our viewers and listeners are like, "You know what? I would love an hour deep dive or so on each one of these," comment and let us know. We could come back and do a deep dive series, take all the objections you're referring to. But the key of Micah 5:2 is that there's precedent within, rabbinic writers and thinkers, namely Rashi, you said 11th century. It's about the birth of a, someone from the lineage of David.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: And it is referred to in a way that has deeper than just a normal human king references, and it's specifically in the place of Bethlehem. Piece those together, we're starting to make a pretty good case for Jesus being the Messiah.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah, and that's just the beginning.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Right?

Sean McDowell: All right, awesome. Okay, so let's jump to another one, maybe the most famous prophecy from the Old Testament, that your ministry is actually named after. We'll come back to that.

Jeff Morgan: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Isaiah 53.

Jeff Morgan: Yes this is a wonderful one. It actually begins in Isaiah 52:13, goes through Isaiah 53:12.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: This is about the suffering servant, okay? I'm just gonna start by reading some text here. "Behold, my servant shall actst- act wisely. He shall be high and lifted up." Okay, this is Isaiah 52:13. Those two words, high and lifted up, ram venisa, those are Hebrew for high and lifted up, and only used for God in the Book of Isaiah. Okay?

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: So this is talking about the servant, who will be high and lifted up. "Then he was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows, but he was pierced," or wounded-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... "for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities- ... And the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." Okay? So some people read this and immediately come to faith.

Sean McDowell: Really?

Jeff Morgan: Because they're like, "Why is He in our Hebrew scriptures?" And it, all of a sudden, something changes and shifts in the mindset because the clear reading- ... Without the rabbinic interpretation surrounding it, lends the person to simply say, "This looks like Jesus. I'll go on the streets of Israel and read this passage to Jewish people who've read the Tanakh." And they're like, "I don't exactly know where that's from, but it sounds like the New Testament, and it sounds like Jesus."

Sean McDowell: [laughs] Oh, wow.

Jeff Morgan: Exactly. And so that's my... I don't tell them where it's from.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, [laughs] you just read them the text.

Jeff Morgan: There's a, there's a, there's some Hebrew words in here, and, it says, "Mechual m'pesha'einu," and what that means is wounded for our transgressions. I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna press on the word pierced because the word mechual means wounded.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: But in this context, it can mean pierced. It can mean pierced, but the direct translation is wounded.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Still the same context.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was oppressed, yet opened not his mouth. For the transgressions of my people he was stricken. He had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Out of the anguish of his soul, he shall see and be satisfied. By his knowledge shall the Righteous One, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous." Okay? This is describing someone very specific, okay? It's describing a a human-like figure, singular, male, and the objection, which I would say is more of a modern objection, I'm not saying modern as in the last 50 years, some- you know, the last thousand years-

Sean McDowell: Okay

Jeff Morgan: ... That this is describing Israel as the suffering one.

Jeff Morgan: But then you read the text, and you say, "I can push it into that category that it's Israel suffering-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... But it doesn't quite fit." And why doesn't it fit? Because Isaiah, in the servant songs, Isaiah 42:1, through 53, there are two servant categories. One, you have the suffering servant-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Of Israel failing, and then you have the suffering servant who restores Israel. So in Isaiah 42, you see Israel failing, Israel's in exile, Israel's a sinful nation. And then you have in Isaiah 49, for instance, the, a servant that restores Israel, distinct, connected to Israel, distinct from Israel as a, as a nation, but from within Israel. So when you look at it, Israel cannot restore Israel and suffer for Israel in the same way, okay? There are many in the Jewish world that will say, "There's nobody that takes my sins. No one dies or suffers for me," and that's why we have to get into some of the Jewish sources. Okay?

Sean McDowell: Let's do it.

Jeff Morgan: So we have, what's called Targum Yonatan. You may have heard- ... This before.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Targum Jonathan. It's an early, Aramaic interpretive translation of the Hebrew Bible. It's used in synagogues, and it paraphrases scripture to make it understandable, okay? This is, this is ancient. And in Isaiah 53, it explicitly connects the servant to Messiah.

Sean McDowell: Wow.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah. Sanhedrin 98b, which is a part of the Babylonian Talmud-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Is a central part of Jewish rabbinic text, and in that discussion, the rabbis connect the Messiah with suffering, calling him the leper scholar in reference to Isaiah 53. So the concept of a suffering Messiah is not foreign, and it exists within Jewish thought.

Sean McDowell: That's amazing. So both of these, the birth of Jesus, Micah 5:2-

Jeff Morgan: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Which obviously at that time was understood as a messianic figure-

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... By at least some, and then the suffering of one, which will lead to the righteousness of many-

Jeff Morgan: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Also has early ancient attestation of being a messianic figure.

Jeff Morgan: Correct And in the New Testament, we have the fulfillment in 1 Peter 2:24. "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree." Okay? So this isn't just suffering, but it's bearing sin and taking on what belonged to us, right? So the fulfillment, you have rejected, suffered for others, bear sins. He's innocent, right? No, done no violence, no deceit in his mouth. You can't, you Israel cannot be the suffering one, the suffering servant in this passage. Silent, dies, brings healing, justifies many, okay? It's pretty clear, unless it doesn't fit your expectation. Right?

Sean McDowell: Unless you wanna get a different fortune cookie [laughs] that doesn't match-

Jeff Morgan: Exactly

Sean McDowell: ... What the text says, arguably-

Jeff Morgan: Exactly

Sean McDowell: ... From your example. Okay.

Jeff Morgan: That's right.

Sean McDowell: All right, in some ways, these two, could be a sufficient case pointing towards Jesus within themselves-

Jeff Morgan: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... Arguably. But we have eight more, so we've gone from a minor prophet to a major prophet. Now we're going to the Psalms.

Jeff Morgan: Yes.

Sean McDowell: Psalm 22.

Jeff Morgan: Very prophetic. The Psalms are very prophetic. We're gonna start with Psalm 22, where David, King David writes, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Okay? 22 verse 1. And when Jesus is on the cross, he says this, and people can use this against him. "Oh, you know, he's, he can't be the Son of God. He can't be the Messiah. You know, look at him. He's crying out to God, 'Why have you done this to me?' as if he didn't understand," right? But what is he really doing, right? It's not a cry of distress. As the Psalm unfolds, it becomes increasingly specific that Jesus is referring people to this Psalm. Why? Because it says here, "All who seek me" ... Sorry, "All who see me mock me. They make mouths at me. They wag their heads. He trusts in the Lord," this is the people looking on, saying, "He trusts in the Lord. Let Him deliver him. Let Him rescue him, for he delights in Him." So you have a public mocking centered on trust in God, okay?

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: "Let God deliver him," you know? If he delights in the Lord, deliver him. It goes on to say, "Dogs encompass me. A company of evildoers encircles me." And then this debated phrase, here it comes, "They've pierced my hands and feet."

Sean McDowell: That's the phrase.

Jeff Morgan: That's the phrase. Now, in Hebrew, we have "Ka'aru yadai veraglai". Now, ka'aru is, "They've dug, pierced, dug out," right? This is the word for ka'aru. They have. It's it's past, plural. They have dug my hands and feet, or they have pierced my hands and feet. Now, in some, Dead Sea Scrolls, it's debated whether the word is ka'aru or ka'ari, and if you change it to ka'ari, it means like a lion. And that, if you insert like a lion, it takes away the whole pierced, reference.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: And it becomes, like a lion, my hands and feet. And that's the modern Jewish objection to this part pointing to Jesus.

Sean McDowell: Interesting.

Jeff Morgan: That it doesn't mean pierce my hands and feet. Guys, get over the cross thing. Get over the-

Sean McDowell: Gotcha

Jeff Morgan: ... You know, stop doing, using these, you know, weird metaphors that Christians are inserting into the text. But this is very highly debated, okay, this word. This, because it, 'cause this shift in word, because you have ˈkaʔru, and the final, the letter of ˈkaʔru is a vav, and it's a symbol, it's a symbol, it's a simple line. Now, ˈkaʔri ends in a yod, which is a little line. Is it the little line or the bigger line? We don't exactly know. However, the ˈkaʔru, they've pierced my hands and feet, you have a subject, you have a verb, and you have an action of what's happening.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? In like a lion my hands and feet, there's a verb missing there. And so if anyone's gonna, you know, accuse someone of pushing something into the text, it would have to be more on that line, because-

Sean McDowell: That's fair

Jeff Morgan: ... It doesn't quite fit grammatically

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Syntax-wise.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Okay, so some later, Masoretic readings, or traditional Jewish Hebrew scripture readings, would read it as like a lion my hands and feet. But what, if we grant that sounds pretty traumatic. There are lions at my hands and feet. So okay, was he mauled by lions and okay, so it's still pretty dramatic. It doesn't change the context of this part. So the Septuagint, you're familiar with the Septuagint?

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Jeff Morgan: The Hebrew scripture's translated into Greek by Jewish scholars before the time of Jesus. Some people debate was that finished before-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Jeff Morgan: ... Jesus came?

Sean McDowell: Sure.

Jeff Morgan: There's evidence that it is, because it's quoted in the New Testament, and I believe it's also quoted by historians before the time of Jesus, the Septuagint, right? Not just the Torah, but the entire, Old Testament. It was, you know, completed over centuries. And that matters 'cause it's not a Christian translation. It reflects a Jewish reading before the time of Jesus, right? David continues, on and it says, "I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing, they cast lots." Okay? This isn't general suffering. This is tremendous detail, okay? This, the objection to this is just David, it's describing his own suffering-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Jeff Morgan: ... Poetically.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? But there's so much detail here. King David certainly suffered, right?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: Was rejected, he hid, he was hunted.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: But this language be go, goes beyond anything recorded in his life, right? There's no account of King David having his hands and feet mauled or pierced, his garments being divided, casting lots, and this exact combination of public humiliation. It doesn't

Sean McDowell: Match up, yeah

Jeff Morgan: ... David's life, no.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: So either this is like a hyper-specific poetic exaggeration- ... Or it's pointing beyond David. And then we get into the fulfillment.

Sean McDowell: Oh, I love it. Okay. So this one is less that there was early Messianic expectation tied to this passage, but we know Jesus was from the line of David-

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And there's specifics given to David that we don't see to match up in his life-

Jeff Morgan: Right

Sean McDowell: ... That we do see described in the life of Jesus. So minimally very suggestive beyond the Psalm itself.

Jeff Morgan: Right.

Sean McDowell: So let's go to the next one, Zechariah 12:10, back to a minor prophet.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Tell us about that one.

Jeff Morgan: Okay. So Zechariah 12:10 is a wonderful, I use this on the streets of Israel as well. I will read this, to people, and they'll say it sounds like, Jesus talking about, you know, from the New Testament, right? "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that when they look upon me, on him whom they've pierced- ... They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn." Okay? Common Jewish objection, God doesn't have a son. And if He, and if it is a son, they're talking about Israel, 'cause Israel's referred to as His son, right? So here's the Hebrew. "Vehibitu elai et asher daqarú", okay? "They will look upon me whom they've pierced." Okay? Anyone that reads Hebrew and understands Hebrew, "Vehibitu elai et asher daqarú", they will look upon me whom they've pierced. This is God speaking. The first question I ask is, how do you pierce God?

Sean McDowell: That's a good question. [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: Okay? [laughs] And the text is really interesting here, okay? Like I said, this is God speaking, and He says, "I will pour out- ... And they will look upon me", but then it shifts to, "Him whom they've pierced. Him whom they've pierced." So you have God speaking, yet describing a pierced figure who is distinct, yet still somehow identified with Him.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? We have this happening a lot in the Tanakh with the angel of the Lord-

Sean McDowell: We do

Jeff Morgan: ... But that's not today.

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Jeff Morgan: And what's the response? National mourning, right? Like mourning for an only son, like mourning for a firstborn, okay? This passage is very pregnant with symbolism. It's very specific. And the main objection, this is a symbolic of Israel's suffering. Okay? This is the main objection. So my response to that, or the text's response to that, don't believe me, is that the text is describing, it's not describing collective suffering. It focus on a specific figure whom they've pierced.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Who the people of Israel have pierced, and the mourning is directed toward that individual, not towards the nation itself. And in this one, we have Jewish sources as well.

Sean McDowell: Oh, we do?

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah, so in Sukkah 52A, which is a tractate in the Babylonian Talmud, it discusses this very first verse. And one of the interpretations given is that the mourning is for a slain Messiah,

Jeff Morgan: often referred to as Messiah, Son of Joseph. Okay? Why Son of Joseph? Because the, in the Jewish mindset, you have to make sense of we do have a suffering figure here. We do have a killed figure here. That only makes sense if we push it into a different category of, okay, well, the the family, Joseph suffered.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: He was from the tribe of Ephraim. You know, they relate-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... The suffering Messiah killed from the tribe of Ephraim, and so that's why he's the son of Joseph. So they have to deal in the text with this suffering one, and that's one of the ways that they deal with it. So in, even in Jewish tradition, this verse is connected to a messianic figure who is killed.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? So we have the fulfillment now in the Gospel account. Okay? The New Testament applies this directly in John 19 where, after Jesus pierced, it says, "They will look on him whom they've pierced." And then in Revelation 1, it picks up again, pointing forward to a future moment of recognition- ... And mourning. And this, the idea isn't just the act in itself, it's also the recognition, the mourning, and turning to God, which fits a broader pattern, right? Rejection first, like we talked about-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Jeff Morgan: ... In the intro, then recognition later. And so the fulfillment is we have a specific pierced individual, language connected to God himself, not collective, but personal focus, deep mourning for an only son. Jewish sources link it to a slain Messiah. New Testament applies this directly to the crucifixion, and it leads to repentance and recognition.

Sean McDowell: That's amazing. So there's at least two sources we've seen so far that are understood within Jewish sources to a suffering and/or slain Messiah.

Jeff Morgan: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Two that refer to, refer to piercing, at least one clearly in Zechariah, which maybe adds some credence to the interpretation in Psalms 22. Maybe.

Jeff Morgan: Right.

Sean McDowell: That's a separate debate that we could have.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: But let's move on now

Jeff Morgan: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... To me, this is one of the most fascinating ones. My dad actually wrote an entire book on some of the prophecy from the Book of Daniel years ago. Daniel 9:24 through 27, and if you will, tie in Haggai 5:6, 'cause there's- ... A connection here.

Jeff Morgan: Okay. So that's great. This is one of the most structured prophecies in the Tanakh- ... And I love it because it gives us a timeline. Right? Sometimes, I'll hear this, Sean, this is the truth, I speak to a lot of, Orthodox Jews, we're not allowed to read this passage because we're not allowed to know when the Messiah comes.

Sean McDowell: Interesting. Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Right. Okay.

Jeff Morgan: This is not just description, it's a timeline. Daniel says, "70 weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity." Okay? Then it gets very specific. "Know therefore and understand that from the, from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem", you have a decree, right? "To the coming of an anointed one, a prince, or mashiach, Messiah, a prince, there shall be seven weeks and 62 weeks." Okay, this is Daniel 9:25. So first here you have a decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Right? Then a measured period, excuse me, a measured period of time. When did this decree come? Most scholars believe that this was in the mid-400s from Artaxerxes from Persia, gives a decree to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. Now, this is a measured period of time, then the Messiah appears, an anointed one. Okay? Then Daniel says, "And after 62 weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing." Now, here's the Hebrew. Okay? Yikaret Mashiach, and that means Messiah will be cut off. And we know that in, Jewish, tradition, in biblical tradition, cut off means killed. Okay? So the Messiah will be cut off, not crowned, you know, not coming in glory-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: ... At this time, but will be cut off and killed. Now, when this timeline is worked out, and you know this, and your, you know, your dad, knows this, these seven weeks are understood as seven weeks of years.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? Or seven 77s, 70 weeks of years, which leads to a span often calculated as 173,883 days, roughly.

Sean McDowell: Sure [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem from Artaxerxes in the mid-400s. So where does this prophecy land? Right in the first century, some say even around 30 AD. Okay? And then Daniel continues. "And the people of the prince who is to come," okay, you have a, you have the prince that's being cut off, he's already dealt with, "And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and its end shall come with a flood." Okay? Now, here's what's clear. Romans, the Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? 40 years after Jesus was born, 37 years, whatever, after his, crucifixion, resurrection. So the sequence here is unmistakable, okay? The Messiah comes, the Messiah is cut off and killed, then Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed, and that anchors this prophecy to the Second Temple period before 70 AD when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. Okay? We have objections.

Sean McDowell: Yes.

Jeff Morgan: And we have fulfillment.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? What are some of those objections? Well, mashiach ... Is the word for anointed one. Just means an anointed one. Could refer to anyone, right? A lot of people were called anointed ones. But even religious Judaism knows the difference between a Messiah

Jeff Morgan: ... Messiah. Yeah. And even King Messiah, which they call Melech HaMashiach, King Messiah. So what is its fulfillment? It's tied to a specific countdown, a specific location, Jerusalem, and tied to the destruction of the Second Temple. So this is not just any figure. This is historical. It's a, it's a pinpoint timeline. Now, what's amazing about that is that Jesus comes in his earthly ministry, and what's This is, this is really fascinating, okay?

Jeff Morgan: Within Jewish Talmudic literature- Mm-hmm ... They'll say this wasn't, this wasn't Jesus, right? That they'll say, you know, "This is not... You know, the timeline is not, doesn't line up. The timeline means something else. There was a different decree. It wasn't him," right? But within Jewish literature, in the Talmud, you have a period of time 40 years before the destruction of the Second Temple. Mm-hmm. Okay? From 30 to 70. Mm-hmm. Strange things were happening in the temple, okay? You know Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. Certain things happened that showed the people that God accepted the atoning sacrifice- ... For sin, and that the people were forgiven. Those signs were not happening for 40 years between the time of Jesus- Okay ... And the destruction of the Second Temple. The lot that was supposed to rise in the hand of the- Mm-hmm ... High priest, in the right hand, that showed God's favor and acceptance, was not rising. The crimson thread that was supposed to turn white, that showed that the sins were forgiven, was not turning white. The doors of the temple were open- ... And the closed doors meant, you know, security, safety. And the temple doors were open. The westernmost, candelabra, the light on the menorah, was not continuously lit, okay? These are all signs showing God's favor and God was accepting sacrifice. For 40 years- ... These were, these were not happening until the destruction of the Second Temple. Now, you could say that that's coincidence. I'm not gonna say that traditional Judaism says that Jesus was the Messiah because this happened, but it's evidence- Hm ... That within Jewish history and Jewish tradition, something very strange was happening in the temple, showing that the traditional Jewish sacrifice was not accepted after Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection. That's fascinating. It is fascinating. So we're gonna move straight into Haggai- Okay ... 'cause you wanted to talk about that. Yeah. Do it, do it. And, you know, Daniel gives us a timing, but Haggai adds something very crucial- Mm-hmm ... About the same temple, okay? Haggai says, "The later glory of this house shall be greater than the former-" ... "says the Lord of Hosts. And in this place I will give you peace, declares the Lord of Hosts." Now, he's speaking about the Second Temple, okay? But you know- Mm-hmm ... Historically, was the Second Temple greater? Nope. No, wasn't greater. There was no Ark of the Covenant. Mm-hmm. There's no what we, what, Christians would call the Shekinah glory or the- Mm-hmm ... Shekinah in Hebrew, which is the, you know, the same manifestation of God's presence. And even within Jewish tradition, this is acknowledged. So how could this temple be greater than the First Temple? Great question. Right? So if you combine Haggai with Daniel says the Messiah comes before the temple is destroyed. Haggai says that same temple will have greater glory, right? So the only way that both of these are true is that the glory of the temple isn't a structural glory. It's not more gold and jewels and, you know, more beautiful to the eye, but that it's a personal visit by the living God. Right? Jesus enters that temple. Okay? He teaches in it. He confronts the leadership in it. He identifies himself in it from within its authority structure. He's asked, "Are you the Messiah, son of, son of David?" you know, and he says, "You, yes, I am, and you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds." And they knew exactly what he was talking about. They tore their garments, "Blasphemy," and they wanted him killed. So this temple is greater, not because of gold, but because of a presence of someone. And I wanna, I wanna just stop for a second and relate this to my own personal testimony. Please. Because I was in New Age spirituality for 20 years, two decades, meditating, clearing my mind, trying to find peace, enlightenment, because I was, horribly anxious, horrible anxiety, and all I was looking for was peace. And what I thought that peace was was the absence of someone. Sorry, absence of something. Oh. Got it. Get rid of the thoughts, get rid of the location, get rid of the relationships, you'll find peace. Get rid of the noise. But what I realized was that peace wasn't the absence of something, it was the presence of someone. And that blew my mind. And when we talk about, that the that in this time the Messiah will bring peace to the temple, I instantly felt peace when I came to faith in Jesus. I was filled with God's Spirit. I felt peace. I realized that peace was a presence of of someone, not an absence of something. So here's historic- a cool historical note from within Jewish tradition itself. In the Talmud, Tractate Yoma 39B, which discusses temple practices, it records, we, like we said before, that 40-year period. Okay? That's where it is in the Talmud, where all these strange things were happening. So these were seen as signs that something was not functioning as it had before. And, When Jesus shows up, right, He makes very prophetic claims.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: He makes very powerful claims about who He is, and He is visiting and within this temple, structure, right? How is this temple more glorious than the, First Temple? Well, we believe that the presence of God was there in human form. Do you have anything you wanna add to that?

Sean McDowell: Oh, I love that. I would just, I would say so far we've been looking at some clues, like the birthplace of the Messiah, that the Messiah would suffer.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: We have references to when the Messiah would come. Now we're kinda shifting into some evidence that the Messiah may be divine.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Now, this doesn't really suggest this. It fits with the larger case that we're making.

Jeff Morgan: Right.

Sean McDowell: Some of the prophecies we'll get into, like namely Isaiah chapter

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... Go even further in this regard, but we've done five. Before we move to six, maybe just kinda sum up for us in, like, a longer tweet of here's the key things that we know from the Old Testament about the Messiah coming from these first five passages.

Jeff Morgan: Okay. So we have, the birthplace of a Messianic figure-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Jeff Morgan: ... In Bethlehem, right?

Sean McDowell: Perfect.

Jeff Morgan: We have the fact that He was a, you know, a bruised reed. We have a suffering-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Servant who is from Israel but distinct from Israel.

Sean McDowell: Good.

Jeff Morgan: A righteous one, had no violence in His mouth-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Who was suffering for the sins of the people, okay, taking upon Himself the transgressions of the people, and when the people is mentioned, it's talked about Israel. You have a specific timeline by which the Messiah is supposed to come. I often say this, Sean. If it's not Jesus, we don't have a Messiah. We don't have one, because- ... There are specific prophecies that must be fulfilled while geneal- john- genealogical records are available and before the destruction of the Second Temple. If He's not the one, we don't have one. There's really only one candidate for that. And so that's kinda what brings us here, and that the Second Temple is more glorious than the First Temple. Okay? It's destroyed. It no longer exists. The First Temple was probably mind-blowing.

Sean McDowell: Far more, yeah.

Jeff Morgan: You know, you think of Solomon. If he was alive today, he would be a trillionaire.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: The most rich, the richest man on the planet, right? So obviously the the Second Temple, it more glorious, it can only really be in one way that the presence of God was actually there, as Jesus. So that's what we have up until this point.

Sean McDowell: I love it. Now, before we jump into the sixth, when you were saying that, like, I felt this emotion go over my body in the sense of, like, I believe Jesus is the Messiah. But just piecing it together with such clarity the way that you did is powerful. Got, like, goosebumps just seeing. It's... I think it's clear-

Jeff Morgan: Brother-

Sean McDowell: ... For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, but we're only halfway there on these 10.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And there's more than the 10 we're going to cover and discuss.

Jeff Morgan: We gotta keep moving, yeah.

Sean McDowell: Let's keep going.

Jeff Morgan: Okay.

Sean McDowell: All right. So Zechariah 9:9, back to a minor prophet.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: Take it away.

Jeff Morgan: All right. So Zechariah 9:9, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is He, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt," excuse me, "the foal of a donkey." Okay, I love when the word salvation is used- ... Because you look up in the Hebrew, and what does it say? Yeshua, okay, the name of Jesus, right? That doesn't mean that this is the name of Jesus. They're saying this is Jesus here.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: I just love that word in there. "Humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey," okay? So this is a public, visible scene. It's not symbolic language, but a moment people would recognize, okay? Your king is coming to you into Jerusalem, and the description of the king is unexpected, right? What are the people expecting at that time when they're being, oppressed by Rome?

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: A conqueror, a deliverer. "Free us from our enemies."

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Jeff Morgan: Right? But He's righteous. He brings salvation. He's humble. Not on a war horse coming in, but on a donkey, right? And in the biblical world, horses are tied to war and conquest, while donkeys were used by kings in a time of peace. So when Zechariah describes a king coming on a donkey, it's not weakness. It's a deliberate picture of a non-militaristic, peace-bringing king, okay? That's what these two animals, represent, so it's a different kind of kingship.

Sean McDowell: Sometimes we go on the streets and we ask people, "What to you is the perfect king?" "Well, that he would take my life into consideration, that he would, he would go on the battlefield and defend me and die for me." Does that usually happen with kings? No. People on the street know they think for themselves, and they send other people out to do that work for them. So the objection here is that this could be staged, right? Someone could deliberately-

Jeff Morgan: Exactly

Sean McDowell: ... Ride a donkey, right? And I don't shy away from that. I'm gonna actually say yes, right? That's exactly the point, because prophetic acts in the Hebrew Bible are often intentionally enacted, right? They're meant to be seen, okay? Isaiah did it. Jeremiah did it. Ezekiel did it. They all acted out their messages in public. Some of the things that they did were as signs of things to come.

Jeff Morgan: So the question is not could it be staged. The question is does it match the prophetic pattern, and does it happen in the right context? So you you can't stage how the public reacted to Him, okay? And when you look at the context, this is in Jerusalem during the Passover, a major feast, and this is a highly visible moment, right? And in the Gospel of Matthew, 21:4-5, it says, "This took place to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet, saying, 'Say to the daughter of Zion, "Behold, your king is coming to you, humble and mounted on a donkey."'" Jesus deliberately enters Jerusalem this way, publicly during the Passover And what do we know about Passover? The lamb that was slain, blood was put on the altar to atone for sins, that death would pass over. Okay? This is, this is extremely pregnant with symbolism here. This happens in front of the crowds, and they recognize it. Right? And what do they do? Their response is immediate, "Hosanna to the son of David." Right? And here we have the Hebrew. Hoshia na. Hoshia na. Save please, or save us now. Okay? That's what it means, and it comes from Psalm 118:25. "Save us, we pray, O Lord." And by the 1st century, it had become a shout of praise and hope for deliverance, and this is what they're saying when Jesus enters in on his donkey. This is a public recognition, right? So what do we have here in its fulfillment? Publical- public visible- ... Entry into Jerusalem, intentional prophetic act, identifies himself as king, humble- ... Not military- ... Recognized by the crowds, and it fits the setting and the expectation.

Sean McDowell: I love it. Now, of course, if Jesus did this intentionally-

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: ... And he wasn't the Messiah, then he's an absolute fool-

Jeff Morgan: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... For arranging his life in a way to get crucified. But I do find it interesting-

Jeff Morgan: Good point

Sean McDowell: ... That I've been, I've been challenged in conversations that Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. Of course, you can point towards Acts 2:36, where he's referred to as Messiah, John 4:26, where in reference to the woman at the well, he says, you know, basically, "The one speaking to you, I

Jeff Morgan: Am He"

Sean McDowell: ... He."

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So writing, you know, the Synoptic Gospels report that Jesus rode a donkey in, this isn't the words I am the Messiah but is a claim to be the Messiah.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So on one hand, you might find skeptics that wanna write it off and say, "Jesus didn't claim to be the Messiah." Okay, we have evidence that he did.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: But then people say, "Well, he was just staging this," which the response is, no, he's claiming to be the Messiah. That's the point.

Jeff Morgan: Exactly,

Sean McDowell: It's a Messianic claim.

Jeff Morgan: It is. Let me, let me, let me add an analogy to that. If I was to tell you, I'm not gonna tell you this word, but, you know, I'm gonna describe someone to you. He rides on the top of a rocket. He goes out into outer space. You know, he wears a helmet and a pressurized suit, and he does experiments in space. What would you call that?

Sean McDowell: Elon Musk maybe,

Jeff Morgan: [laughs] Good

Sean McDowell: ... Give-

Jeff Morgan: Right

Sean McDowell: ... Keep going.

Jeff Morgan: An astronaut.

Sean McDowell: Obviously, an astronaut, yeah.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah yeah, my six-year-old got that. And I didn't use the word astronaut, but you know from the description what it is, and that's exactly how the Tanakh- ... You know, people expect so much more because it doesn't fit their personal, you know, present situation. I want this, and I need to get that from Scripture. But the the Tanakh and the New Testament paint a picture of Jesus, and if you were to lay out the description of Jesus, you know, He,

Jeff Morgan: forgives sins, right, raises the dead. He Himself was risen from the dead and stayed alive, right? If you list out the things that Jesus did Himself, you would say, well, walked on the water, has control of the weather.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Jeff Morgan: Right? Who does that other than God? By His description, you would say, "Oh, yeah, that's-

Sean McDowell: Right

Jeff Morgan: ... Obviously God." But that's how Jesus is described. So if you lay out Jesus' description, you can say, okay, that doesn't fit a normal mortal- ... Mortal man.

Sean McDowell: Love it. One observation before we move on.

Jeff Morgan: Yep.

Sean McDowell: We have prophecies like Micah 5:2, where Jesus is born, that He can't control, and then prophecies like Zechariah 9:9 that He can control.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We have both, which I think helps make a comprehensive case.

Jeff Morgan: And there's, and there's nothing wrong with a prophet making a public display of what is supposed to be happening.

Sean McDowell: Exactly.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Well said. Okay, so this is the only one we're gonna move to next.

Jeff Morgan: Yep.

Sean McDowell: The oldest one in this list, actually from the Torah.

Jeff Morgan: Yep.

Sean McDowell: Now, there's others in the Torah. Maybe the first could be Genesis 3:15, which is another conversation, but Deuteronomy 18:15

Jeff Morgan: I love this

Sean McDowell: ... A very important passage. Let's look at that one.

Jeff Morgan: I love it, right? The parallels are striking. So Moses says, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers," "from your brothers," right? "It is him you shall listen," Deuteronomy 18:15. And then again, it says, "I will raise up for them a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him," and that's Deuteronomy 18:18. So a prophet like Moses, okay, what does that actually mean? It's not just another prophet, right? This is someone specifically like Moses, right? And that matters because Moses isn't just any prophet. Moses is, like, a category.

Sean McDowell: He's the prophet.

Jeff Morgan: He's-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Jeff Morgan: ... In and of himself, and the Torah itself says, "There has not arisen a prophet in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face." This is already in, towards the end of Deuteronomy in chapter 34. So you can claim that it was something else, a line of prophets, and so on and so forth, but that doesn't add up because of this specific verse as well. But you have an expectation, which also means a future figure will match or exceed the uniqueness of Moses. So let's look at the pattern of Moses' life, and this is really amazing. He was born under a death decree. Pharaoh orders the killing of the Hebrew infants. Okay? He's preserved as a child. He's called out of Egypt, leads the people through the water, the Red Sea, goes into the wilderness for a period of testing. He ascends on a mountain-

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: ... Mount Sinai, receives and delivers the law, acts as a mediator between God and the people, and delivers them from slavery into a covenant. Okay? So that pattern is like the template for Moses, the category for Moses, right? And this object- what's the objection? Well, this just refers to the line of prophets in general, or Joshua Okay, I hear that. And what's the response? Well, the response is that in that, if that were the case, Deuteronomy 34:10 wouldn't say no prophet like Moses has arisen. So even after many prophets, the category remains open. Okay? So let's now look at Jesus in that framework. This is beautiful. Born under a death decree.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Jeff Morgan: Okay, Herod orders the killing of infants. Called out of Egypt.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Okay. Matthew 2:15 says, "Out of Egypt I called my son." So, Joseph was given a dream by an angel to leave because Jesus was gonna be hunted by, King Herod.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Jesus passes through the water in His baptism, goes into the wilderness for 40 days of testing. He ascends a mountain and teaches, but instead of saying, "Thus says the Lord," or, "Watch what the Lord will do," He says, "But I say to you." Okay? He's not just delivering law, He's speaking with direct authority and clarifying the Torah. This is a really important point because not only does the category line up, it's elevated, and even in religious Judaism, in Midrash and Talmud, the Messiah will teach Torah or reveal hidden things. So the argument isn't if Messiah will bring greater clarity to the Torah, but who will be the one doing it, okay? Next, He mediates, okay? "This is my blood of the covenant." What did Moses do when he, made the covenant with the people? What did he sprinkle on them?

Sean McDowell: Sprinkled the blood.

Jeff Morgan: He sprinkled the blood-

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Jeff Morgan: ... On the people.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: Right? Here comes Jesus. "This is the blood of the new covenant." Okay, where do we find the the

Jeff Morgan: expression of new covenant in the Old Testament? Jeremiah

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Which we'll get into in a second.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: So He mediates the new covenant, and He delivers not just from political bondage, but from sin. So this isn't a similarity, right? It's an escalation that brings much more clarity to what Moses brought.

Sean McDowell: That's amazing. I love that. All those factors, especially, you have Pharaoh killing all the babies, Herod killing all the babies.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: A deliverer, a rescuer.

Jeff Morgan: Yep.

Sean McDowell: You know, what's interesting is Moses is the deliverer of the people of Israel, and he's, on one hand, he's Hebrew, but he's also Egyptian. Jesus, the deliverer of mankind, He's human, but He's also God. That's an interesting connection as well, just to maybe add to the case that you're making.

Jeff Morgan: Beautiful.

Sean McDowell: Now, you mentioned Jeremiah 31:31 through 34 about the new covenant. Let's go there and keep the case moving forward.

Jeff Morgan: All right, so I'm gonna start with an argument.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Why do we need a new covenant? We got the old covenant, right? Why are you calling it new and you know, you're calling our covenant old, right? A lot of Jewish people, they respond to that emotionally, right?

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jeff Morgan: Why are you calling our covenant old? And my response to that is, "Well, I, we're not calling your covenant old, God is." Right? Because He says, "Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "Well, I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand out of Egypt, the covenant- ... That they broke."

Jeff Morgan: Not like Sinai. It's clear. It's explicit, okay? In Hebrew, when it says, "I will make a new covenant," we have Brit Hadashah. I use that a lot in my videos when I'm talking to Jewish people on the streets. Where does the Brit Hadashah, the new covenant, come from? Oh, the Christians brought it. No, it actually is prophesied in the Book of Jeremiah. Oh, and then they read it, and they go, "Huh," and you see the wheels spinning and the eyes opening, and they just kinda like, just processing. And sometimes that's all you need to do for a minute when you're talking to someone. This phrase matters because it goes way out of its way to say, "Not like Sinai," which is the Mosaic Covenant, and then it explains what's different. Okay, what's different about the new covenant? "I'll put my law within them. I'll write it on their hearts. I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Okay? So this covenant is internal, right?

Sean McDowell: Right.

Jeff Morgan: First we have the old covenant, and whenever you have a covenant that comes, so, like, Abraham was given a covenant-

Sean McDowell: Yep

Jeff Morgan: ... Right, which was older than the Mosaic Covenant, which was older than the Davidic Covenant-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Which is older than the New Covenant.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: So every time you have a new covenant, the previous one is older. Doesn't mean it's bad or wrong.

Sean McDowell: Makes sense.

Jeff Morgan: They're all essential. They're all part of God's plan. And so this transformation that's happening from this new covenant, it's not just instructional, right? Do these new laws, do these new things. It's a personal, internal transformation. And it's centered on forgiveness and not repeated sacrifice. Okay? Every year, what do we have? Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Right? But the New Covenant talks about, the removal of sin, the end of transgression, and that's what's so beautiful about it. I will forgive your sins and remember them no more. Not continued sacrifice. Not, let's do it again next year, right? So the text here is explicit, and we have a Hebrew word for new covenant, not renewed. We get that argument, too.

Sean McDowell: Oh, that's important.

Jeff Morgan: It's gonna be renewed. It's gonna be fixed, right? No, we see new. It's explicit. It means Hadash is new. Not Mechudes, which is renewed. So not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, so there's the contrast. Not a newer version, not Sinai 2.0, okay? This is a new covenant. At Sinai, the covenant was written on stone. In Jeremiah, written on the heart. Sinai mediated externally. Jeremiah, there's an internal knowledge of God. Sinai, ongoing sacrifice. Jeremiah, forgiveness fully granted Okay, this isn't a reset, this isn't a renew, this isn't a refresh of the old. He's describing something new, a major shift. When Jesus comes into Jerusalem on the Passover- ... He lifts the cup and he says, "This is the new covenant in my blood," ushering in the new covenant that was promised to us, referring directly to Jeremiah 31. He says this in Luke 20, 22:20. He's not continuing Sinai, he's inaugurating what Jeremiah described.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm. That's amazing, and the key, you've said this a few times, is this is not replacing the Abrahamic covenant.

Jeff Morgan: No.

Sean McDowell: It's very clear that it's the covenant at Sinai-

Jeff Morgan: Right

Sean McDowell: ... And their sins will be remembered no more.

Jeff Morgan: No more.

Sean McDowell: So it's fulfilling the Exodus covenant and all those that come before, but it's a fresh, new covenant.

Jeff Morgan: And you made a great point, because, there were certain covenants that were unilateral.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: God made a covenant with Abraham. This is gonna happen withou- with or without you,

Sean McDowell: Unconditional

Jeff Morgan: ... This is happening.

Sean McDowell: That's right.

Jeff Morgan: My word will happen. My word will go forth, and it will happen. Now, what was the Sinai covenant? It was a bilateral covenant.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: It was conditioned upon the people's response. They broke the covenant over and over again, thus says the Lord, "I will bring a new covenant to the house of Israel" 'cause He's full of mercy and grace. Right? He wants to save His people.

Sean McDowell: And this new covenant is also unilateral. He says it's going to happen.

Jeff Morgan: That's right.

Sean McDowell: And of course, if Jesus is the Messiah, we believe He did.

Jeff Morgan: Right.

Sean McDowell: It happened clearly on the cross-

Jeff Morgan: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... When He paid the debt for sin.

Jeff Morgan: Amen.

Sean McDowell: We have two more. These are two of my favorites, by the way. So we're going back to the Book of Daniel.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: We talked about Daniel, chapter 9 before, so we're going two chapters earlier.

Jeff Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: But it fits in the theme because of what it's referring to, so take us to Daniel 7:13-14.

Jeff Morgan: So this is really a wonderful, prophecy because it ties into what we spoke about in the beginning. How do prophecies unfold? What is the pattern? We're gonna discuss that-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... A little bit later, okay? Daniel 7, verse 13 through 14, is a future fulfillment that Jesus quotes, okay?

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Jeff Morgan: And He fulfilled the rest, we can count on Him for doing this. It says, "One like a son of man, coming with the clouds, and to him was given dominion, and all peoples should serve him". Okay? A son of man, like a son of man, and in Hebrew, son of man is ben adam, which is, translates into human being. One like a human being, coming with the clouds, and whose prerogative is it to ride the clouds? It's the Lord's prerogative.

Sean McDowell: Divine.

Jeff Morgan: It's divine, right? So He's coming with the clouds, and, to Him was given dominion, and all people should serve Him. Now, people can gloss over the word, "Serve him," and in, and in Daniel, a lot of Aramaic is used. That word in Hebrew, Aramaic, actually, is yifalkhun, okay? It sounds like Hebrew. It's very similar to Hebrew, and the root of that word is pe lamed chet, which is, plakh, which means service to God in a way that's higher than regular human service.

Sean McDowell: Okay.

Jeff Morgan: Worship given to God, right? And that used, that word, or from that root, plakh, pilakh or plakh, is used elsewhere in Daniel for unique service to God, okay? So when it says here that, "To him was give, divi- given dominion, and all peoples," okay, including the nations, "shall serve him". When I talk to people on the streets, I'm like, "How is it that billions of Christians throughout history and millions and millions of Christians today believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? How is that possible if not for Jesus?" And they're like, "Huh, good point."

Sean McDowell: It's a great question.

Jeff Morgan: So what's the objection to this? Well, some interpret the son of man as symbolic of Israel, once again.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: But even then, the figure is described in a highly individual term, coming with the clouds of heaven-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... Receiving dominion, and being served in a way that echoes the language used for God in the Book of Daniel. So the question becomes whether this is just a symbol or a representative figure who embodies that role.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? And what's the response? Well, it's talking about a individual figure receives divine level service or worship, right? So when Jesus uses the title son of man, He's not just saying human being. That was, like, His favorite, description or title for Himself because He knew how biblically, in the Tanakh, it referenced the Messiah. So He's not just saying a human being. He's directly, He's quoting directly or drawing directly from Daniel 7, verses 13 through 14, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven and is given authority, dominion, and a kingdom where the nations shall serve Him. And in the clearest moment is at His trial.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Okay? When He says, like I said before, "You will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven." And what do the religious leaders do?

Sean McDowell: Tear their clothes.

Jeff Morgan: Tear their clothes, right? Blasphemy. And they wanted to kill Him, right? So this is a direct reference to Daniel 7, and combined with Psalm 110. Okay? The reaction is immediate. He's accused of blasphemy. They understood exactly what He was claiming, not just authority, but a share in God's own authority and rule. Okay, so what do we have for the fulfillment? This divine authority was claimed by Jesus. Like you said, "Oh, He never claimed to be Messiah." Oh, yes He did, and people knew that through even the Son of Man it was a well-known, term to describe this figure, this messianic figure.

Sean McDowell: Yeah, there's clear examples where Jesus claims to be Messiah, in the example of riding a donkey into town or in John 4:20.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And this is an example of claiming to be Messiah, but claiming to be the divine figure of, Daniel, chapter 7.

Jeff Morgan: Right.

Sean McDowell: At his trial, which would make sense towards the end of his life saying, "Let me just sum it all up and be super clear"

Jeff Morgan: Right

Sean McDowell: ... That's what he's put to death for, is his claims that he makes. And of course, there's political reasons tied into that.

Jeff Morgan: Sure.

Sean McDowell: But I think about your point about this is a figure that deserves the highest level of worship. You have in Acts 10, you have people that, you know, Cornelius wants to worship Peter. He's like, "Stand up. I'm also man"

Jeff Morgan: Right

Sean McDowell: You have in Revelation, worshiping an angel. Nope, do not worship an angel. Jesus allows it, and he invites it, and makes it clear that he is that figure that goes back to Daniel 7, pretty powerful fulfilled prophecy and claim.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah, and what does Thomas call him when he sees the hands, and you know, the, pierced, the pierced at the side, you know- ... Puts his hands on his, on the holes, you know, "My Lord, my God" And Jesus doesn't deny that claim.

Sean McDowell: Amen.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Good stuff.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: All right, so one more.

Jeff Morgan: Yep.

Sean McDowell: And I have actually been studying through Isaiah and just reading Isaiah 9 and 11 and 14, so this is fresh in my mind.

Jeff Morgan: Nice.

Sean McDowell: But I'm curious for you to break down Ina- Isaiah 9:6 and why it's so important.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah, this is another one of the passages that I'll read to people on the streets, and I get a lot of criticism for it. "Oh, you're bringing this out. You're tricking Jews- ... And, you know, you're opening up the passage and," you know, but it's not, it's not tricking. It's I want the Jewish people to look at the text as it is. And I want their mind to start thinking about it. I'm not trying to prove that this person is wrong. I'm trying to show them what scripture says and have them come to a conclusion that they can go test. Don't take my word for it. But look at what the text says, now go investigate it.

Sean McDowell: Love it.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah, I trust that God will do the work, all right? I don't have to bring someone from A to Z in one conversation, right? I wanna make Jesus known, right? So this is what's fascinating, and this is a passage that a lot of Jewish people grow up hearing. It says, "For to us a child is born, for to us a son is given. The government will be upon his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Okay? What a claim. Okay? It's not abstract. This is a human figure, a child, a son, a ruler, right? But then the names, they start stacking up.

Sean McDowell: Yeah

Jeff Morgan: [laughs] You know what I mean? A son called Mighty God, you know, Wonderful Counselor, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Now, when you stop for a second, you say a child called Mighty God, that's strange, right? In this, in the Hebrew, we have the Hebrew here, El Gibbor, okay? Mighty God, El Gibbor. That's what what, that means in Hebrew, and it shows up again and again just one chapter later in the Book of Isaiah 10:21, where it clearly refers to the Lord himself using the same word. So Isaiah, he's not just using light language. He's not just saying God-like or heroic. He's saying Mighty God. A son called God, okay? And titles that are reserved only for God himself. So now you have this tension, and what a lot of, Jewish people do when they read scripture, and there's a tension there, like you have with Angel of the Lord, like you have with the Son being called-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... They'll force it into one category. But instead of of avoiding the tension, it's important to sit in the tension- ... And allow the tension to be there. Right? And so here's the question I put out on the table, right? What category do we have for that? Because if we flatten it, like we've put it into one category, we lose the weight of all the language. And if, but if we take it seriously, Isaiah is opening the door to something bigger than a normal, a normal king. So it's not a contradiction, it's just complex. A ruler who's truly human, yet described in ways that push into identity of God himself. Okay? In the Tanakh, we have this Angel of the Lord figure. We're not gonna talk about that today, but he speaks as God in the first person as God, does only things God can do, identified with God, yet distinct from God.

Sean McDowell: Right.

Jeff Morgan: That tension is there, and what I'm encouraging Jewish people to do is to not erase the tension, but to sit in it and and try to work through it, not through this is what I think it means, but what does the pattern in the, in the Bible show?

Sean McDowell: That's great.

Jeff Morgan: So this is not a New Testament idea being forced backwards, okay? So the common arguments against this is that it's about Hezekiah, okay, not a future Messiah. Isaiah's described as, you know, describing a near term Davidic king in his own time, okay? The, another, argument is that the names don't mean, the names don't mean the child is divine. These names are God, actually, the Mighty God, the Eternal Father is calling him- ... The Prince of Peace. But again, anybody that knows Hebrew reads the passage in Hebrew, and whenever you have , his name will be called, you have the names following. It happens all throughout the Tanakh. When someone is given a name, , and then the names come. This is exactly the same syntax.

Sean McDowell: Exactly.

Jeff Morgan: His name will be called, and then the names follow. So you can take the names after that, put them in front, and say, well, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Wonderful Counselor is calling him the Prince of Peace. Doesn't work. It's a mistranslation. Okay, so, like I just talked about the Hebrew, the Hebrew naming patterns, okay? And it says also that there's no explicit Messiah term in the passage. Okay, that's fine, but it's not, and that it's not necessarily about an ultimate redeeming figure. But we understand, and we're gonna get into this as the final thing here, prophetic pattern, right? You you can recognize someone based on who they are, what they do, how they're described, and what they fulfill. Not necessarily, you know, he never said he was God. It's like, okay, but I don't have to say I'm an astronaut-

Sean McDowell: Right

Jeff Morgan: ... For you to know what I do. I just, I'll give you an explanation of who I am and what I do. You'll know. You'll know So, Hezekiah doesn't fit the scope. Okay? There's no eternal reign. There's no global peace. There's no lasting transformation. El Gibbor, mighty God, is not a light title, okay? It's used in the Book of Isaiah in 10:21 clearly for God Himself. The grammar naturally places the title on the child, not on God as a separate subject. Hebrew names usually point to God, not identify someone as God. It's a very big objection. All kinds of people have the name of God in their names in Hebrew. You've got, you know, God is my this, and God is my savior, and God is my light, and God ... This. And yes, you have names, this is a common objection, you have names in Hebrew that have the word El in them, but nobody is called God.

Sean McDowell: Big difference.

Jeff Morgan: Very big difference. You have descriptions versus the title.

Sean McDowell: Like titles, yeah.

Jeff Morgan: Exactly.

Sean McDowell: Good.

Jeff Morgan: So verse seven expands the scope, to endless rule, justice forever, far beyond any historical king. So of the increase of His government and peace, there will be no end. This is the continuation of the, of the passage. On the throne of David and over His kingdom, there will be no end. To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. And one thing that I love is the last sentence of this passage. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will- ... Do this. Oh, this was all fulfilled in that time. This was a prophecy back then. Then why the future prophetic pointing, okay? Why the zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this? This is a future- ... Pointing to something ful- coming fulfilled in the, in a future time.

Sean McDowell: Love it. Good stuff. Now, I have one last question for you-

Jeff Morgan: Yep

Sean McDowell: ... About typology, but maybe one more time, we did this at five, kinda step back for somebody who goes, "Okay, give me the tweet of these 10, what they lie up, just lying together, kinda the key hooks about what we should expect in this coming Messiah."

Jeff Morgan: Okay. So we have, from the beginning, we have a place where the Messiah's supposed to be born, come out of.

Sean McDowell: Yep.

Jeff Morgan: We have a suffering servant who is of the people, but distinct from the people.

Sean McDowell: Great

Jeff Morgan: ... Innocent, taking upon the sins of others. We have a, we have kingly predictions of the timing of Messiah, King Messiah coming before this destruction of the Second Temple. We have, the kingly prophecy of the humble king- ... Coming to deliver peace into the city, riding on a donkey, lowly and humble on a donkey, coming in. We have, titles of a son being born who is called Mighty God. We have a prophet like Moses who not only fits the description, the category of Moses, but elevates and makes the Torah even more clear, which within Jewish tradition we know the Messiah is supposed to do.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: We have a new covenant that is promised-

Sean McDowell: Love it

Jeff Morgan: ... To us in Jeremiah 31, where Jesus comes to Jerusalem, lifts the cup on the Passover. What, an amazing time period to do that. Inaugurating the new covenant. And, we have, Jesus inaugurating that new covenant-

Sean McDowell: Amazing

Jeff Morgan: ... During the Passover, yeah.

Sean McDowell: And by the way, from minor prophets, major prophets, from the Psalms-

Jeff Morgan: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... We also have from Deuteronomy-

Jeff Morgan: The Torah

Sean McDowell: ... From the Torah.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And there's plenty of others we could've taken, like even in Genesis 49 about from the line of Judah, for example-

Jeff Morgan: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... From the seed of the woman. We've only really touched a small percentage-

Jeff Morgan: There's so much here

Sean McDowell: ... Of these. But talk about typology because sometimes there's a confusion about what this means and how it helps us make sense of the Old Testament better.

Jeff Morgan: Yes. There's a pattern that happens throughout Hebrew, the Hebrew scriptures, that if you ignore, and think of the Torah, for instance, as a law book instead of a narrative with laws in it, and a process that the Lord is taking the people through-

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm

Jeff Morgan: ... You're going to miss these beautiful patterns that repeat over and over again. So some people will say, "Oh, there's, you know, 300, over 300 Messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled or is going to fulfill all of them," but when you really look at Scripture, the entirety of Scripture is prophetic.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: It's a, it's a huge prophecy in and of itself. There's the pattern, God sends His servants. They're rejected.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: They're mocked. They're beaten. They're killed. Again, Elijah, "They have killed your prophets with the sword." Moses is rejected. David is overlooked and hunted. The prophets are ignored, persecuted, and even killed, right? Then recognized later. And you don't hear this today, you know? Our people, our people rejected Jeremiah, Isaiah, Moses, and Elijah, and so on, therefore, we reject them today, too. No. Rejection is the pattern.

Sean McDowell: [laughs]

Jeff Morgan: Okay? You see it happening over and over and over again.

Sean McDowell: It's good.

Jeff Morgan: The recognition comes later. Like I said, I'm gonna bring it back to the beginning. The people were promised a great nation through Abraham. There they were in Egypt being persecuted, enslaved. If someone looked at that prophetic, prophecy- ... Of Abraham getting the covenant of becoming a great nation, they could've easily said, "Cannot be. Look at us. Look at us." The recognition comes later. So when people say Jesus didn't fulfill prophecy, the Tanakh does not support that at all. It blows my mind. Right? It rests on expectations that are later, that are not explicitly stated in the Tanakh as expectations of what the Messiah's supposed to do, rebuild the Third Temple, and so on and so forth. But if you follow the text, you don't just get one piece, you get a convergence of so many, like you just said, so many different things from so many different prophecies. In fact, the the Tanakh itself trains us to know what to expect. So when I talk to people, I'm not saying, "Don't believe me. Don't accept one prophecy. You know, look at them entirely-

Sean McDowell: That's great

Jeff Morgan: ... As a unit altogether, the Tanakh as a whole," because eventually it stops being out, being about whether one detail can be debated. You know, let's talk about this one word. Let's talk about what does the pattern show? And it becomes whether this whole picture can realistically point anywhere else other than Jesus. And if you expect Him to come and fulfill everything all at once, you're taking the entirety of a prophetic pattern and saying, "Irrelevant. It has to fulfill my expectations based on my current situation."

Sean McDowell: Back to the fortune cookie, to bring it full circle.

Jeff Morgan: Full circle.

Sean McDowell: So what, I think what's remarkable here, as you said, look at the, look at the evidence as a whole from examples that might be considered more typological like, Deuteronomy 18, where you kind of look at the life of Moses, see how it maps onto the life of Jesus in remarkable ways, as well as like Zechariah 9:9, riding a donkey, Micah 5:2, being born in Bethlehem. We have such a range of different kinds of prophecies from different books from different times, and the question is not does, is, does Jesus fulfill exactly what I would expect-

Jeff Morgan: Right

Sean McDowell: ... But does He fulfill this as a whole, and is there any other figure that's close? And I think the answer to that is no.

Jeff Morgan: No.

Sean McDowell: There's no other figure that's even close to what Jesus has done, especially to bring it full circle. I've heard Dennis Prager say, Jewish of course, that he believes God used Jesus to take the Torah to the world, which is so interesting to hear him say that, which we would say is a part of the prophecy fulfilled in Jesus.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah. I love Dennis, yeah.

Sean McDowell: But there's so much more.

Jeff Morgan: I love Dennis, and I would, I would encourage him to, remember, when Jesus says, "I've come only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel" in the Book of Matthew. "I've come only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel." So to say that Jesus came to for the Gentiles, it's it's shoving it into a category- ... And not dealing with the tension that the text actually brings, right? Well, you know, you can, you can take the Son and who's called Mighty God, but no, it it creates a tension for me, so I'm gonna put it into a different category. And that's what a lot of people do because they don't wanna- ... Accept the fact that actually He could actually be the Messiah. And when people, you know, I suggest a plain reading of the text-

Sean McDowell: Love it

Jeff Morgan: ... On your own. A lot of religious Jews come to faith in Jesus ... Reading the Tanakh for the first time by themselves- ... Without the surrounding-

Sean McDowell: Preconceptions

Jeff Morgan: ... Interpretation. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: Love it.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: That's great. Tell us how people can follow you and what you're doing now.

Jeff Morgan: I have a ministry called Highway 53.

Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Morgan: Based on Isaiah 40 verse 3, the highway of our God, and the means of salvation, which is through Isaiah 53, the suffering servant takes upon, our sins, and we are healed. So Highway 53 came out of that. I served with Jews for Jesus for six years and moved on to, I felt God leading me into an, a place of more independence and-

Sean McDowell: Sure

Jeff Morgan: ... You know, on a, on a, to a new project. And, they can follow me at my YouTube channel, Highway 53. I have a, also a website, highway53.org. You can contact me and, you know, the email's there, and, come find me on YouTube.

Sean McDowell: Well, I want all my followers listening or watching to follow you. You're one of the best YouTubers [laughs] that I know.

Jeff Morgan: [laughs] Wow.

Sean McDowell: You just know how to make interesting titles, great thumbnails, make videos come alive, and they're-

Jeff Morgan: Wow

Sean McDowell: ... Interesting and they're relevant.

Jeff Morgan: Thank you.

Sean McDowell: So you're a great communicator.

Jeff Morgan: Thank you.

Sean McDowell: May God just continue to bless and expand your ministry. Friends, I've covered prophecy some on this channel. If you're listening to this going, "Wait," here's some ideas for you that would be helpful. Let us know. If you want to deep dive on these, maybe we'll come back and carve out a couple days. [laughs] I'm not committing you, but if it's helpful-

Jeff Morgan: I'd love to come back

Sean McDowell: ... To have people weigh in.

Jeff Morgan: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: We could do a deep dive on each one of these and take, like, all the objections to Zechariah 12:10, all the objections to Micah 5:2, and really lay this out. If this is helpful to my viewers and listeners, let us know. Don't forget to hit subscribe 'cause we've got a lot more apologetics coming your way, and if you've thought about studying apologetics, we would love to have you at Talbot School of Theology. We do a deep dive on evidence for the scriptures, evidence for intelligent design. I teach a class on evidence for the resurrection. We talk about prophecy. Information is below. Last thing, if you're like, "I'm not ready for a master's," we have a certificate program with some of the best in the world, where we walk people through lectures and just basic assignments to learn apologetics. In the description of my video, there is a significant discount, so check it out. Jeff, thanks for making the trip all the way from Israel, and you're doing other things in town-

Jeff Morgan: Yeah

Sean McDowell: ... But this has been an absolute treat. We'll do it again.

Jeff Morgan: It's been a pleasure to be here. I'll be happy to come back. Thanks, Sean.

Sean McDowell: Thank you. [outro music]