Episode 150: Collegiality and Friendship Amidst Religious Disagreement

There is a need for students to learn good models for handling difficult conversations. So on today’s episode, Tim and Dr. Andrew Reed (Ph.D.) from Brigham Young University (BYU) take up this call and continue the conversation by bringing together students from both universities - Biola and BYU, for civil discourse on religion, theology, and social issues. They debrief their experience in a course Tim and Andrew are co-teaching, and they discuss the importance of understanding your neighbor’s perspective as a way to love your neighbor, Aristotle’s method of the dialectic, and the difference between emphatic vs. phatic communication.

Transcript

Tim Muehlhoff: 00:02 Welcome to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. My name is Tim Muehlhoff. I am the co-host of this podcast as well as Senior Director of Biola's Winsome Conviction Project. Our goal is to bring civility to the public square, to talk about issues that divide us, to take topics that we easily demonize each other and believe the best about each other, to try to find common ground with each other, even as we do eventually reach uh disagreement. One thing I love about Biola University is we just don't keep it in the classroom. We don't just teach about it, uh talk about it, write about it. We actually try to do it. So I have some guests with us. Um we have uh been opening what we're calling the BYU Biola Dialogue, Brigham Young University, unapologetically part of the LDS Church, and Biola University unapologetically Evangelical. Uh, let's come together. Let's learn how to talk. Uh let's identify differences. Let's uh find common ground if it's to be found, and then let's move forward. We actually were greatly motivated when last year uh President Shane Reese from Brigham Young University came. We did a chapel. You can actually listen to the podcast. We converted into a podcast. Just go to the archives at winsomeconviction.com. But President Reese, President Corey uh have become friends over time. And I'll never forget a drop the mic moment from President Shane Reese. Uh students erupted in applause. He said this, "You all are being taught a lie. And the lie is that you can't be friends with a person that you disagree with politically or theologically." And then he looked at Barry Corey and he said, Um, "We have deep theological disagreements, but you are my friend, and I think we can do a lot of good together." And they actually were promoting a documentary of the value of religious higher education. And uh I think I think we're eager to hear that message today. The Biola Students, it was a live chapel that we we made as a podcast, and students really erupted in applause because we don't get that message anymore. We really don't. Uh, one of the highlights of my year uh has been co-teaching a class with Dr. Andrew Reed, Brigham Young University. Andy came to me with this idea. He was going to teach a great class. I'll let him tell you about that in a second. And would we zoom in every week? Biola students. So I got 15 Biola students. By the way, let me just brag on these students, Andy. They received no credit whatsoever. We didn't have time to work it through the system to get them credit. Yeah, we had 15 students who said, Yeah, I don't care about the credit. I I want to engage, I want to have good conversations. Man, that's just really cool that we have those kind of undergraduate students. One of those students is with us today that you'll meet in a second. So, Andy, why don't you reintroduce yourself? If you want, you can go back and listen to. We already did one podcast a while ago uh introducing this class. But Andy, introduce yourself real quick. Tell us about the class and why you wanted to pursue this.

Andy Reed: 03:10 Great. Well, uh I'm Andy Reed. I'm the Richard L. Evans Chair of Religious Understanding at BYU, which its stated purpose is to build relationships um and uh friendships for the university, um, and as and as a kind of add-on uh along with the church, um, all with people all over the world, people of faith, uh, political leaders, uh, thought leaders, um, scholars. And so I I have the great privilege of just thinking about how do we do that and what kind of friendships are we trying to build. And so, as part of that, this friendship has emerged um thanks to uh Greg Johnson and President Reese and President Corey. I've kind of set the path forward a little bit. And so the class is really was an in many ways is was a trying to be an answer to a problem. Um our our own president Shane Reese has highlighted, and alongside our the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Larry Saints, Dallin Oaks, um has highlighted the need for students getting good models of difficult conversations. And I think that that for me is is a call to create ways in which students don't just know that there are hard conversations because that's present everywhere, but they see them as opportunities and not opportunities to take advantage or to cry somebody's perspective, but actually uh opportunities to engage. You know, I love that what you said about Biola University, that it's a place to engage. Yeah and uh BYU feels very deeply about that, that we have a mission to the world, um, which is to bless lives. Great. The class has a really cool name. The name of the class is the class of the the class is titled Discipleship and Civil Discourse in a Polarized Age. Man, that's might be the longest title of a class.

Tim Muehlhoff: 04:57 But yeah, but I'll tell you what, that's a book title right there as well. I mean, that yeah. And so once we heard about that, we were like all in. Uh our president saying we got to do this and uh Winsome Conviction Project. That's why we exist, that's why we do it. The really cool thing is we don't do it by ourselves. I mean, it'd be one thing if you and I just had conversations. I'd it'd be really beneficial. But what we really care about, both institutions, is raising up a new type of citizen, a new type of communicator. And that's why we're committed to being educators. And so we actually have some of that new generation right here sitting around the table. Uh let me introduce you to uh a student who is one of my all-time favorite comm majors at Biola University. She's a graduate, and uh her name's Lauren. Lauren, introduce yourself to everybody.

Student: 05:48 Hi guys, my name is Lauren Goldman, and I am a recent. I say recent, but Dr. Muehlhoff and I just discussed. I graduated three years ago. Yes. Yeah, super recent, super recent Biola grad. And um I took this class, we discussed in our our small groups, we did breakout rooms within our our Zoom class, um, that I I think one of the greatest calls is to love your neighbor as yourself. And I think one of the most practical ways to do that is to understand your neighbor. Yeah. And I think that within um the evangelical and within the Christian world view, um, there's a lot of um a lot of diversity. And I think that especially within the evangelical and the the LDS communities, um I think that it's really hard for us to um come alongside one another and have an allyship as we're in this incredibly um always deteriorating world um and all the chaos that we're seeing around us. I I think that that's a beautiful allyship that can't really happen if we don't approach it with empathy and understanding. Um and so, in a desire to gain more of that, I participated in this class.

Tim Muehlhoff: 06:56 Let me drop a little John Gottman after what you just said. Uh John Gottman is one of the top relational experts in the world. And he said, uh this actually was the opening line in my dissertation. Gottman said, it is impossible to receive input from another person unless you first feel understood. I think that's brilliant. So, yeah, this understanding that you mentioned is really good for us to come together face to face. Let's talk. We get to ask each other questions. I think it's super important and rare today. So uh thank you for being part of this as a graduate. Coming back and being a part of it, I think is really cool. Uh, we're also joined by two BYU students.

Tim Muehlhoff: 07:38 Max, welcome back.

Student: 07:40 So, my name is Max. Um, I'm a BYU student studying international relations. Um, I have just one semester left, so there is an end insight. And um I've I've been just really blessed to be here at Biola and for the interactions so far that I've been able to have um with Biola students.

Tim Muehlhoff: 08:00 That's great. And then we have Alexis.

Tim Muehlhoff: 08:03 Alexis, hello.

Student: 08:04 Hey, yeah, so I'm Alexis, and I'm also a BYU student. I'm a business major. I'll be graduating in December. Um, I actually heard about this class because I was in Professor Reed's World Religions class, and we had just finished uh reading a book, uh See No Stranger by Valerie Carr. Um fantastic book, and we were kind of discussing it, and he mentioned that um he was going to be holding this class um and getting off the book of you know, seeing who people are actually are, understanding the person behind whatever um like characterization that maybe you have you walk into a conversation, you see someone, you're like, oh, I know who they are because you know of their political belief or their religious belief. But being able to actually talk to the people behind um whatever they are believing whatever they believe, I saw that and I was like, get me into that class. Give me that ad code.

Tim Muehlhoff: 08:54 Yeah. Andy, didn't you tell me that you you took 25 students, but you said you could have taken a hundred. That this really, when word got out, it was very well received by BYU students.

Andy Reed: 09:06 Absolutely. I mean the class you know is capped partly because of the cost of being down here, you know, for three days. And um if you don't know, BYU doesn't do spring break. So our students, we created our own spring break by coming down here, and the weather's been just fantastic. But um yeah, you know, the BYU cares deeply. Um I think this is true of faculty and administration, but also our students care deeply about this concept of discipleship. What does it mean to be a disciple of Christ in the world? Um and I think that these are the kinds of classes that help take some of the pressure off of that term so that it can be seen as I'm becoming this, I'm developing in this way, rather than I just have to figure this out. Uh and so I think this class, for me at least, has been just a a real answer to to prayer and to kind of seeking to understand how do we put students in a position where they can or where they're empowered to act in the world.

Tim Muehlhoff: 10:05 Yeah, that's great. Um one thing we did with this class, zooming in once a week, is we would learn a communication technique. And it could be perspective taking, the method of the dialectic, presenting both sides of an argument. Uh, and then we would have them all go into breakout rooms. This is the really cool thing about Zoom, is we just created maybe, I don't know, eight, nine breakouts, and people got to know each other. Like we kept them in the same breakout, I think, for like yeah, like three weeks. Can you all comment really quick, Alexis? I'll start with you. What was the value of doing that? Like we could have swapped the breakout rooms every single week because we wanted everybody to get to know each other. There were 25 roughly uh BYU students, 18 Biola students. What was the value though of keep staying in the same breakout and getting to know each other and having conversations with people you were getting to know?

Student: 10:58 Well, so for the first off, like the the first breakout room that we ever did, you know, the first five, ten minutes were like, hi, the introducing yourself, like s understanding who the person is that you're actually talking to, and then you can get into discussion. And I know that at least in our breakout rooms, um, or in my breakout room, which I was actually sharing with Lauren. Um but we uh one week we got onto a fantastic discussion and then it timed out, and so we didn't actually get to everyone. And so because we were in the same breakout room the next week, we could kind of wrap up that last discussion the following week and go into the next communication tactic that you were talking about.

Tim Muehlhoff: 11:33 Yeah, and let me just make a quick point. I want to get your perception, uh Max, as well. That's what's missing from today's dialogue. There is no continuity of the conversation. It's it's either one or done, but even not even that. I mean, this idea of tribalism, I think, is for real, that we are locked away and there is no conversation between the two tribes, the two groups. Um so this was we're gonna foster that. And I think for a lot of Americans, we just don't talk to people that we don't uh agree with. And I think, man, I think that's really hurt us. Max, what was it like to get to know uh people as well as have conversations?

Student: 12:21 Yeah, it it was really good. Um I loved the continuity because to me it seemed like it was an opportunity to like deepen relationships. But I think one thing that really helped me feel comfortable asking biola students questions about their faiths, which can be a difficult thing to do, and have them ask questions about mine, is meeting with the same groups each week. Um I could really start to feel how genuine and and sincere the curiosity of Biola students were were for me. It wasn't anything like you know, trying to ask like gotcha questions or anything like snarky or or anything like that. I could very much feel even through Zoom that these people had a a very genuine desire to to make a real connection and and to deepen their understanding. And um again, I think that's something we don't get enough of in in real life, especially on social media. That's dialogues there, are it doesn't make that possible, but but but this was a good experience be because of that.

Tim Muehlhoff: 13:38 You know what? Let me pick up on that, Max, real quick. So obviously, I would check in with the Biola students uh fairly regularly, find out how they're doing, and I wanted to send them um, you know, just things to help them prepare and think about things. So I would I would Google things like um, what do uh uh Mormons believe about X, Y, or Z? Okay. Max, I could not find one clip that wasn't dripping with sarcasm or just flat out anger. So I I thought I'm not sending that to my students with that kind of tone. But I I it really struck me there was very few charitable uh perspectives of and I'm I'll own this from the evangelical community that man, it was really hard to find anything. So I I eventually just never did.

Student: 14:31 Wow, yeah, yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff: 14:32 I mean that's sobering.

Student: 14:34 Yeah, it's a polarizing place. I mean, I don't I don't think you get many views on social media for being kind. I don't think that's what often gets likes or shares, and and so, but it again just these one-on-one connections were able to show me or at least remind me that the online atmosphere doesn't reflect individual attitudes.

Tim Muehlhoff: 14:59 That's really good. And and uh, Max, let me just comment. It's not that you just don't get likes, you get the opposite. Like if you have a charitable perspective, you're it it's coming hard. Uh everything from you're condoning, you're being soft. And so there's a price to pay to be charitable. To speak truth in love, there's actually a cost in today's argument culture, which is really sad. Lauren, just real quick, your comment about um what was it like to have that continuity uh brewing to get to know uh Alexis uh week after week.

Student: 15:35 Yeah, I think I would echo everything that that they had mentioned. I think that um the timing with which we swapped groups was really interesting because we had been building up this great relationship and communication climate. And then the assignment right before we changed was to prepare a um a stance from the opposite perspective. So myself as an evangelical student would then speak to the group as an LDS member and explain one of the key differences on, I believe it was open revelation. Yeah. Um, and then obviously opportunity for anything else that we had disagreed with. But instead of entering into a breakout room with familiar faces, they were all brand new faces. And that was slightly intimidating because it's like, wait, I don't know if you trust me. I don't know if I trust you. But I think that because there had been that um three weeks prior um that integration within our communities, I think that it was a really easy landing spot. Like maybe the first two to five minutes, my group was reintroducing each other. I had one person that was the same from the last group, um, which was great. But I yeah, I think that because we trusted our our in-group um and our other in-group was trusting the other group, I think that it was a really easy transition. But uh initially that was very intimidating.

Tim Muehlhoff: 16:57 And Andy, of course, you and I had many talks about that. Um we we wanted the whole group to kind of get to know each other, and so now that we're face to face uh for these two and a half days, we didn't want everybody just to gravitate toward their breakout groups. Uh, we wanted everybody to have a little bit of association with everybody else. That's kind of honestly, Lauren. That was kind of our thinking on it that we're gonna. It worked.

Student: 17:19 Yeah, yeah, it was great.

Tim Muehlhoff: 17:21 Andy, let me ask you a question because what Lauren is describing is of course from Aristotle. It's called the Method of the Dialectic. Uh, Aristotle very much believed that you should be able to do both sides of any argument. Both sides, equally passionate, both sides. And I I think today people are aghast at that idea. Like, I'm not gonna do the other side with equal passion, and um, I I think we're weaker for that. So, Andy, we decided, uh, and we're gonna actually do this while uh the students are here at Biola, is we're not asking the students to do anything Andy and I aren't willing to do. So I stepped up and I just want to get your impression of how this felt. So I presented the LDS view of ongoing revelation. Uh obviously, immediately we think of the works of Joseph Smith, but there's the Pearl of Great Price. Um there's also you have a living prophet, if he chooses, can speak for God. So I I I did my research and I presented it to you. What did that feel like to hear an evangelical professor do his best to present to you the LDS perspective of ongoing revelation?

Andy Reed: 18:37 You know, I mean first of all, I think it's uh just using that technique of of encouraging students to say, in order to be able to do this in a week's time, you're gonna have to spend some time working on it, thinking about it, reading, studying, asking questions. And so when you came in to represent the Latter-day Saint perspective, it was very clear that you weren't just trying to set up something that could be dismantled later. Oh, yeah, yeah. That you actually You went to Latter-day Saints scripture to make the case. And that actually was really meaningful. And you taught me how to say Yeah, we worked on the phone. We worked on the phonetic. But but that meant something actually, that you would go to a source that we don't hold in common to understand my perspective, to recognize that part of the reason we disagree is because for Latter-day Saints at least, there's other scripture, other word of God that we use that helps us complete our perspective on something, on God or on prophetic roles or or whatever it is. And so that meant something to have you dive into, not just say, well, here's the biblical perspective as I read the Bible, yeah, but actually here's something that your tradition holds. Let's talk about that. And let me use that to show why a Latter day Saint thinks what they think.

Tim Muehlhoff: 19:59 Yeah.

Andy Reed: 20:00 That was to me that maybe the most important part of that is that it wasn't because normally I talked about, you know, I've talked about in the past Latter Day Saints and evangelicals disagreeing when Latter Day Saints are in kind of uh the proselyting mode of trying to proclaim the gospel, yeah, and evangelicals pushing back and saying, well, that's not what the Bible says. And so to have an evangelical go into Latter Day Saint scripture changes the discourse completely.

Tim Muehlhoff: 20:27 It was really interesting to do that. It really was. Um we received, we went to this, Andy and I went to this meeting in Salt Lake City, a meeting of uh educators from both the LDS perspective, theologians, and the evangelical perspective. And you gave us a book by Underwood.

Andy Reed: 20:44 Uh Dr. Grant Underwood.

Tim Muehlhoff: 20:46 Yeah, is he at BYU?

Andy Reed: 20:47 He has just retired, so he was my predecessor as the Evans chair. No way.

Tim Muehlhoff: 20:51 Yeah. So he Well, listen, he wrote a really powerful book about um LDS theology, crazy helpful, and just a really good writer. Now, obviously, there's parts of that that I really disagree with, but I felt like I was listening to the A-team present this in a really robust way, and that was really beneficial to be able to do. Um, so it was good. And he was very aware of the disagreements, and he was very charitable to the evangelical perspective. But so I thought it was really good. Okay, let me ask you three um what was that like inhabiting a perspective of a different community? Uh doing Aristotle's method dialectic. By the way, the way I I was introduced to this, I was on the uh debate team at Eastern Michigan University, and the coaches would have you come in and you'd have to present both sides of an issue, and they had to be able to say, I don't know what you believe. I really don't. Other times they'd say, Muehlhoff, get out of here. I obviously know what you believe, get out of here. Sometimes I I think they were bluffing. I think they were bluffing. Just to show. But we we had to go, and these judge uh these coaches would have to say, okay, I I'm a little bit uh confused what you actually believe because you did a really good job of both sides of those issues. What was it like to do the method dialectic? I will start with you, Alexis. What was that like uh to do?

Student: 22:23 It was, I mean, so we had a little while to prepare for this one, but it was it was really interesting to place yourself in the different perspectives, right? Because so when I first um was thinking about it, I'm like, okay, so from the topic of we're looking at a closed doctrine, right? Um, where the Bible is the only word of God that we have, and everything else can support that, but that's what it is. And so um when I saw that, I wanted to go in and say, okay, what does the Bible say about this? And so I did a little bit of research and I pulled some some verses. Um, and I can't remember the ones that I got off the top of my head. But um I when I went into the breakout room, um, it was really interesting to see, okay, so this is what I this is where I was correct, and then to have our the fellow evangelical student go, okay, yes, you got this right, you got this right. This is a little bit different from what we were from what we would present, but overall, that's a very like good, um, good-hearted, good-natured attempt to present the opposite side of the issue.

Tim Muehlhoff: 23:29 Yeah, and Andy, you did that with me. Uh so when I finished, and I you really did affirm me, and I really, really appreciated that. But you said, but I might highlight something here, I might add a little clarification there, and that was very helpful. It opens the conversation, it doesn't shut it. Yeah.

Andy Reed: 23:47 And I think that's the best, that's the best part of this approach is being honest about trying to say, what would Tim say if he were articulating his perspective on this? Then I have to really say, okay, well, what how would Tim say it? That might tell me something.

Tim Muehlhoff: 24:02 Yeah.

Andy Reed: 24:03 What would Tim look for in terms of answers and and research? And then when I try to articulate an evangelical perspective, I'm actually thinking of Tim's perspective, maybe in my head.

Tim Muehlhoff: 24:15 Oh, that's good.

Andy Reed: 24:16 As a kind of way to personalize it a little bit so it's not the stereotype.

Tim Muehlhoff: 24:19 That's really good. Yeah. Uh by the way, um as we're doing this uh podcast, we have uh roughly 25 students from BYU here. Andy's with two fellow colleagues, and then we're gonna have uh uh two deans here from BYU. And Andy and I tomorrow are gonna present each other's community's view of Jesus in front of everybody, and then we'll have a conversation and open it up for questions, which would be uh really interesting. Lauren, what was it like to inhabit um because now you're arguing for progressive revelation, the Bible is not closed. What was that like to go through that process?

Student: 25:00 Yeah, I think it was really helpful. Um, one of the things that so within my breakout group, there were two Bible students, and I was obviously one of them. Um, one of us relied really heavily on scripture and passages from the holy LDS books. And then I relied more heavily on scripture and the nature and character of God. So an example would be um I said that um the the idea that in Galatians Paul is Paul is specifically saying um to watch out for people that are going to manipulate and change the gospel. But what we have within the holy books of the LDS faith are actually just providing clarity um and not detracting from the gospel, but rather continuing it forward. Um and if we're looking at the Bible as a collection of the testimony of God's work, why wouldn't we continue it with other holy texts? And then upon that, um, one of my arguments was um from the LDS perspective that the need for, I guess the fruit of these other books is a level of unification that a lot of evangelicals do not have. And so it would be within the nature of God to provide a way for unity. Um, and the fruit of that within the LDS faith and community is a booming community of unified faith followers, and within the non-denominational or evangelical route, it's a bunch of different denominations that are divided because of a lack of clarity and unity on the interpretation of the Bible. Um, and so truly inhabiting the LDS perspective on that was I really helpful for me.

Tim Muehlhoff: 26:47 And you always helpful, I appreciate you saying that, Lauren. So when I presented my perspective, you and again, this is what's so good about this, is you added a layer that I had not been aware of, I I was not aware of. So the King James Version of the Bible, because that is what Joseph Smith used, understandably, um there are issues with the um with how it's been translated, which I think we even found common ground because I I think uh evangelical scholars would agree that there are some problems with how it's been translated, but that even Joseph Smith felt like some people had been sticking stuff into the King James Version, and thus his revelation was correcting um maybe some mistakes and maybe some things that power struggles people were trying to put in. I had never thought of it that way, and and that was helpful for me to understand um why Joseph Smith felt compelled to address maybe some issues with the King James Version of the Bible.

Andy Reed: 27:55 Yeah, no, I think that's you know Joseph Smith takes on a kind of we call it a translation. Um it's not quite a translation in the way that we would think of taking it from Greek into English or something. Uh, but he's working with an english text and trying to help clarify, I think that's the word used, right? That can help clarify um, as Lauren said, some of the language that adds confusion so that a reader of the Bible can understand more carefully what was intended, yeah, and the ways to read that passage.

Tim Muehlhoff: 28:33 Yeah.

Andy Reed: 28:34 So uh and and Latter-day Saints don't even have we don't really have our head around that whole project in terms of what it meant or what it was. Um and so I think that it's interesting for us to hear others kind of articulate something about that and then have to reflect and say, okay, what's right about that comment and where would I nuance it, where would I change something they said um to make more sense? And sometimes that's the benefit of hearing our perspective from someone else, is we then reflect on our perspective more deeply. And then we have to think, how would I respond in a way that helps?

Tim Muehlhoff: 29:12 And I think when Andy and I did it, um, I think one thing that came out, and again, that this is um the method of dialectic isn't meant to close the conversation. It's actually meant to do the opposite. It's meant to enlarge it after I hear my perspective done by you with integrity and a steel man, not a straw man, uh, is I made the comment, okay, I don't think the idea that God was a man morphing into God is found in the New or Old Testament. Thus, it seems to me that we're taking the works of Joseph Smith and prioritizing it over the scriptures. Then I add this magical phrase to Andy that I think we need to include. Am I getting that right? That is the magical phrase of the method of the dialectic that we're missing today in much of our public dialogue.

Andy Reed: 30:05 You can almost think of the method of the, you know, the dialectic in a in a way where am I getting that right? Then allows me the opportunity to refine the message again. Yeah. Right. Until you uh really get it where it's accurate. I think that's the beauty of that. And that's why having students engage in this is so fun because it's not a well, I've done it once. I I I told evangelicals what they think about, right? It's rather I'm trying to figure out what they think, and I'm gonna work to get to that point where I can represent it in a way that they would say, that's honest, it's faithful to the way I would see it, and it's charitable.

Tim Muehlhoff: 30:44 Yeah. That's really good. Okay, let's end with this. Um, there are two Lauren could probably do this on the backstroke. Andy, she's heard every story, every theory. Lauren could do it. But it is helpful when communication theorists say there's two forms of communication, not one. There is what we call emphatic communication. That's me pounding the table, right? That's my ideology, that's my worldview. That's crazy important, and we actually need to do that. But then they said there is something called phatic communication, which is the it's the daily goofy stuff. Let me give you one of our phatics that is maybe God inspired is we we just don't like Duke. We do not like Duke basketball. We just don't. It's wrong to call yourself a blue devil. It's wrong. And I think we could both say that from both our traditions. Okay, that is phatic communication. That's the goofy stuff. That's the um it's having fun. It it's it's okay. We just had a great talk about theology. What's on your Netflix cue? Like, you know what I mean? So I want I want you guys to address this. We didn't have to have you come out here. And by the way, let me just say publicly, it's the graciousness of BYU who's flipping the bill to be out here. Now, once you're here, we're trying to be good hosts and providing dinner and stuff like that. But you guys paid a chunk to do this. I I think that talks about your seriousness of wanting to engage. I really do.

Andy Reed: 32:20 Yeah, no, it it comes directly from uh the president of the university.

Tim Muehlhoff: 32:24 That is so cool.

Andy Reed: 32:24 He believes deeply that students, and not just a one-off kind of thing, but he believes that students need to have multiple forms of engaged learning, inspired learning, inspiring learning, right? Yeah. That we need to have and and that can be a research project with a faculty member, that can be a trip something like this, that can be um working in a nursing clinic. It's it's any kind of thing, but it's where students take whatever's happening in the classroom and see it in the world.

Tim Muehlhoff: 32:56 Yeah, that's so good.

Andy Reed: 32:57 And it's transformative and it changes how they think about their own capacity and role in the world.

Tim Muehlhoff: 33:02 So, Max, we could have just done Zoom the entire semester. We zoom in once a week and have these kind of conversations. What difference does it make to actually come here, be on our campus, go on a tour, eat lunch together, um, enjoy the sunshine? What what difference does it how does it change the conversation you come in here when we could have just done it via Zoom and do breakout rooms?

Student: 33:32 Yeah, totally. I had mentioned it a little bit before, but um over Zoom, I could certainly tell that um Jesus Christ was an important part of Biola students' lives. Um but coming to Biola and being able to see it and see the community that's been built, um the way people treat each other, all of the the symbols and the scriptures and the murals that are all over campus and and go to chapel. Um it's been really interesting to see how Jesus Christ is a central focus of of Viola students' lives that's um really been big. It's not just like, oh, you know, this is our class that we take. And it's a class that talks about discipleship and about Jesus Christ. So we're going to talk about it, and then outside we're gonna go do something else.

Tim Muehlhoff: 34:31 Yeah.

Student: 34:32 But to be able to see people living their lives and acting like disciples has been huge.

Tim Muehlhoff: 34:37 That's really cool. Andy, you said something really funny. We we've been taking these breaks, right? And you said you were just sitting uh outside the bookstore by the eagle's nest. And what happened? You were just sitting there, and what what happened that you just said to me, okay, that's kind of cool, is what what was happening.

Andy Reed: 34:54 Well, there are two places in the world that I have been where I've noticed that people are willing to say hi to you as a complete stranger. One of them is BYU. Um but it's more prevalent here at Biola. I was sitting there just working on my computer, and I had I think five, maybe six people walk up and say, How's it going today? You know, I'm an introvert. That's that's not my world. Yeah, me either. But it was amazing. Just there's a kind of and I and I do actually people say this about BYU all the time, but I also think it's true of Biola that there is a genuine curiosity and willingness to engage with people, even when I don't know who they are. Yep. Um it's just amazing.

Tim Muehlhoff: 35:37 Uh let me uh one quick thing, Alexis. I want to get your thoughts on this. So we had uh we had an individual who taught at another institution, well-known evangelical institution, and he came here uh and we were at a conference together. We were sitting next to each other, and I said, Hey, I I know you were at this institution for quite a while. Now you're here at Biola. What uh what uh what do you make of us? He said this, I'll never forget it. He goes, let me tell you the biggest difference between Biola and my institution. I said, Okay. He goes, people laugh here. It really struck me. There's something about laughter that is blatantly missing from public discourse today. You do I mean, can you imagine? That's why remember uh it was a funeral of John McCain, I think, where the President Trump sat down to next to President Obama and we didn't quite know what they were talking about, but remember they were smiling and laughing? I mean, that made world news because you had two people just simply being cordial and and laughing of having a private moment. We we just don't have laughter anymore.T

Andy Reed: 36:47 Just don't go and look at the memes that came out of that.

Tim Muehlhoff: 36:50 I don't want to anymore. Don't ruin my moment of idealism. So uh Alexis, what what makes it what what changes the conversation to be on the other person's turf?

Student: 37:03 I think um, and this is something that I've been noticing throughout the class and why I've really enjoyed this class, is that um as we are as BYU students, as we've been engaging in different topics and meeting with the Biola students over Zoom, um we started out over Zoom kind of meeting with like, hey, what are the similarities between our two faiths? And then we've recently progressively gone, okay, now what are the differences between our two faiths? And like later tonight, we're gonna be talking about the differences um with Jesus and between our two faiths. And I think one of the things that I think Professor Reed has set up, and both of you have set up beautifully, is that we're learning how to be comfortable with discomfort. Oh and so we're it's always it's uncomfortable to disagree with someone. It's uncomfortable to say, I don't believe the same way that you do. But being here at Biola, we're in a welcoming community. We're in a community where we I feel like I feel very welcomed. You walk outside, as you were just saying, people laugh, people smile, people walk up and say hi. Um and there's a spirit there's there's a spirit here where you're able to say, All right, this is I I'm I'm okay to disagree with you here. And I can sit in the discomfort of my disagreement with you, and we can both acknowledge that we're both a little bit uncomfortable, but we can continue to move on with that conversation.

Tim Muehlhoff: 38:23 Okay, one last thing, I lied. I said one thing and we're gonna we're gonna make it two. We also did, Andy, last time you were here last year, uh, we took you uh to something called After Dark Chapel. Now, uh Biola does many different chapels, but we have one called After Dark that truly is After Dark. So if you get asked to speak at After Dark, every faculty member just takes a deep breath and says, yes, of course. It doesn't start until 9.10 at night and goes quite late. But it is a really it's completely student-led. And Andy, you it really made an impression on you last time you were here because we we went to After Dark together. Uh what was the impression it made? And then I want to hear from you both because we went to chapel today, which was kind of cool. So, Andy, what was your impression?

Andy Reed: 39:11 Well, I I think the biggest impression was we're missing something in my tradition. Um the we're missing the opportunity to kind of have a celebratory worship of our community, of the gospel. There was something about the students just sort of leading out in song, participating in song. Um I mean the message from Barry Corey was was fantastic. Uh but I think that there is a there's something really healthy and wonderful about recognizing when someone else does something better than I think my community does it. We don't do worship music very well sometimes. Sometimes we really slow down the organ to kind of let it draw out. And that's not what chapel after dark is.

Tim Muehlhoff: 40:05 It is not after dark chapel, yeah.

Andy Reed: 40:08 So but it left that impression that here's here's a it's not even something I'm going to I'm not gonna take it back and be like, okay, we need a rock band. Because we don't do that. But there are opportunities for celebration in community that we need to foster.

Tim Muehlhoff: 40:23 No, that's good.

Andy Reed: 40:24 And I just thought that was so it was it was I mean, it was amazing because as you said, it starts very late. We drove all the way here on Monday, we showed up here on Tuesday night. And that's exhausting to stay up that late after having driving for a day and a half and and participating in in dialogues all day and then showing up here. I was dreading it. And it was one of the most amazing experiences I've had in recent memory.

Tim Muehlhoff: 40:53 So thank you. Thanks. That's really cool. Okay, Alexis, what was it like to be in your first Biola chapel today?

Student: 40:59 So it it was it was amazing. I mean, it was it was obviously very different because um in the LDF faith, we don't really have anything like chapel. We have church and then we sometimes have activities through the week, but never a really celebratory like worship service. And so, you know, you go in, you stand up, and then you start singing songs, and they're upbeat and they're happy and they're joyful, and it was it would it invited a spirit, I think, that I don't know that I've ever felt in a standard LDS um worship service. And I don't know, I don't think that's bad, but I as Professor Reed was saying, I think that there is something to uh some religious envy that I have with that. Where it's I really I really love that about your guys' like chapels. Like it was it was a wonderful, welcoming, happy experience.

Tim Muehlhoff: 41:50 It was great to yeah, it was great to have you. And it was a great uh sermon on Luke 15, my favorite uh passage of the entire New Testament. I just love it. Um okay, Max, we're gonna end with you, but here's how we're gonna end it. Um solo. Solo. Let me let me return something, Andy, that I think you guys do exceptionally well that we could learn from. And then I want to, Max, I want to get your impression of it. So you guys bake into the system this mission that people go on, right? And it is not convenient to do this mission. You current you currently have a daughter on mission, right?

Andy Reed: 42:30 I do. I have a daughter in the Philippines. I have a son who's preparing to go to uh Mandarin- speaking to Vancouver, Canada.

Tim Muehlhoff: 42:36 So I think that's very I mean, we talk about it, right? We talk about the Great Commission. You bake it into the system, right? So, Max, what what's your attitude towards going on mission? Like how were you dreading it? Was it like, well, I gotta do it, or was it what was your attitude towards going on the mission?

Student: 42:57 Oh, that's a good question. Um growing up, I I personally was really excited. Um, oftentimes you'll you'll hear the phrase in our church, they call a mission like the best two years. Um, and so that's that's what I would.

Tim Muehlhoff: 43:12 Oh forgot it was two years. I was thinking one year. Hey, hey, think Max, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but think about the sacrifice to your family. Honestly, Andy, I mean, you have a daughter. Will you see her at all during that two years?

Andy Reed: 43:28 One of the great things that happens now is we get to uh FaceTime with her every week. Oh, okay. So when I did my mission service, uh I talked over the phone to my parents on Christmas and Mother's Day. And so, and that creates all kinds of mental health and sure, just some emotional challenges. Sure. Uh whereas being able to, you know, check in once a week is actually just an amazing adjustment to the system.

Tim Muehlhoff: 43:55 Yes, good for everybody's gonna be a good thing. And you can check in. If she starts to root for Canadian hockey. We need an intervention. We need an intervention. Good. So, Max, you were looking forward to it.

Student: 44:07 Yeah, no, I was looking forward to it. Um, and and when I got out onto my mission, I started to realize that it was really, really hard. And I was kind of having thoughts of like, this doesn't seem like the best two years. This is this is difficult. I'm struggling um really hard. Um but through that experience, through really good times and through really difficult times, I think that it helped me to draw closer to Jesus Christ than I ever have. And so sometimes I would hear people throw around the fa phrase, you know, maybe this isn't the best two years of your life, but it is the best two years for your life. Wow. It helps you understand Jesus Christ and to remember that he's done really hard things for each one of us, and as we do hard things for him, um, we'll know him better and we'll we'll have a closer relationship with him.

Tim Muehlhoff: 45:10 It may not be the best two years, but it might be the best for your life two years. Yeah. Wow. He's a walking t-shirt. That is that's amazing. Hey, let me thank let me thank you guys. One for honestly, let me just say this about BYU very quickly. Uh, they don't get a spring break. Uh they don't. So that they're all coming out here and classes haven't stopped. And so we're giving them study time and stuff like that. So listen, I really appreciate you taking the time to come out here uh and do this. It's really great to be face to face. And Andy, this is a logistical nightmare in some ways. It's it's easy. Oh, come on, it's fun. No, we're having a great time and it's worth it. Yeah, but it's great, it's great for you guys to both allocate resources and time to come do it. And then Lauren, graduate, coming back. I I think that's awesome. So listen, thank you all for being here. We really do appreciate it. And we also appreciate you, our listeners, uh, for tuning into the Winsome Conviction project. But check us out at winswomconviction.com. You can get all past uh podcast resources. You can also uh sign up for a quarterly newsletter. Thank you, and uh, we'll talk to you soon.