Dr. Clint Arnold Interviewed on NBC's Dateline
On Monday, April 25th, NBC News reporter John Larson interviewed Talbot professor Dr. Clint Arnold for a story regarding modern day perceptions and expressions of evil. The story aired Wednesday evening, April 27 at 8:00 p.m. on NBC. Here are Dr. Arnold’s responses to questions that did not appear on Wednesday’s Dateline special:
What is your role at Biola University? I am a Bible professor and chair the New Testament Department at Talbot School of Theology. My research and writing focuses on interpreting the New Testament text in light of the social, cultural, and religious background of the world at that time.
How do you think evil manifests itself in the world today? For many of the problems we face, we need to look no farther than ourselves. Jesus said, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander” (Matthew 15:19). We all face the plight of a highly contagious disease that the Bible calls sin.
Is that all? No, we also face various forms of external pressures enticing us to live in ways that are not honoring to God. We feel these through peer pressure, ideologies, media, and cultural movements.
What about Satan? Do you think he is real? Yes, I believe that Satan is a real, living being and not simply a symbol of evil. From beginning to end, the Bible speaks about Satan as an intelligent, personal, spirit being who opposes all that God is doing and is bent on destruction.
Do more people believe in the devil now than in previous years? Yes, this fact has even been documented in a 2001 Gallup poll that shows a sharp increase in a belief in evil spirits and supernatural phenomena since a previous survey in 1978.
Why do you think there is such fascination with the devil in recent years? I personally think it reflects a decline in commitment to a naturalistic worldview. People are simply more open to believing in the supernatural, which includes a belief in the devil. A contributing factor to this is the fact that naturalistic explanations simply cannot make sense of all the ways that evil is felt and experienced. We also have to remember that it has only been in the last 300 years in the West where there has been a widespread skepticism about evil spirits. Peoples in other parts of the world, such as Africa, Asia, and India, have always believed this. In some ways, our skepticism has been the cultural oddity. [John Larson also suggested that our new life situation in a post 9/11 era has contributed to an increased interest in Satan].
What do you think about exorcism? Is there a place for this? Can it work? Yes, I have seen instances where I believe it has made a real difference for a person.
Aren’t there perhaps psychological disorders that can explain some of the symptoms attributed to the presence of evil spirits? Yes, we need to take a holistic approach in helping a person who complains of symptoms that could be interpreted as demonic. Various psychological disorders, such as Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), have symptoms that could easily be misconstrued as the presence of an evil spirit. We also need to realize that there are a variety of chemical disorders in the brain, such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, that could give a person the sense of hearing voices or feeling strange presences.
Then how do you tell the difference? Well that is the toughest question of all to answer. One needs to engage in a process of discernment to determine the best course of treatment. Quite often there is a need for a combined approach of medical attention, good therapy, and prayer. This is one of the reasons that there are three professors teaching the course on spiritual warfare here at Biola University. In addition to myself (a theologian), we have a psychologist (Dr. John Kelley, Director of the Biola University Counseling Center) and an anthropologist/missionary (Dr. Doug Hayward, School of Intercultural Studies).
How do people attract these evil spirits? One way this happens is by inviting them. There are many forms of spirituality in which people seek to communicate with spirits and actually call on them to come and be with them and reveal themselves to them. If a person rolls out a welcome mat, they may very well come.
Are there other ways? Sin is like a magnet to evil spirits. People who engage in wilful disobedience against the Lord over a period of time put themselves in a vulnerable position. I have a colleague who compares it to pouring gasoline on a fire. If we engage in a pattern of sinful behavior over time (such as excessive bitterness or anger), it is like a fire that burns in our soul. Satan is attracted to the smoke of this fire and comes with a gallon of gasoline that he pours onto the flames. Of course, the small fire bursts into a large uncontrolled fire and then there is a much more severe problem. Now the person feels trapped and enslaved to the problem.
So the person becomes possessed? I think it is important to think of how evil spirits influence people more in terms of degrees of influence rather than simply possessed or not possessed. I see the Bible teaching it more in terms of a continuum: at one end there is the pole of light influence (temptations, enticements) and at the other end there is the pole of deep and profound influence. It is important to see that there are many different levels of influence between the two extremes.
What is the way out? There is no technique or formula. The only help is through a relationship with a person, the Lord Jesus Christ. He has the power to help a person gain freedom from a compulsive sinful behavior, a feeling of being trapped and powerless, and from the torment and influence of evil spirits.
Some Christians believe that they are in a pitched battle against evil forces. In fact, they refer to it as “spiritual warfare.” What exactly is spiritual warfare? They get this image from a book in the Bible, the Apostle Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, which says, “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 6:12).
What does this mean? It is a biblical way of viewing life. It recognizes that there is a God who loves us and has a plan that he is unfolding. But it also recognizes that there is a powerful supernatural enemy who opposes all that God is doing and seeks to create pain and havoc for his people. It is important to realize, though, that Satan and his forces are not equal players in this match. The power of Christ is infinitely greater.
I want to change the direction of our discussion to another topic. There are groups of Christians in the Appalachian mountains who believe that the Bible teaches them to handle poisonous snakes. Do you think the Bible teaches people to do this? No, I do not. There is no passage in Scripture that teaches people to pick up rattlesnakes as part of the worship of God in a church service.
Then where do they get this idea? There is a later addition to the end of the gospel of Mark that says, “In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all.” Many Bible versions include this ending, but most include a note that says something like, “The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have this passage.” Most Bible scholars agree that this passage was not written by Mark and did not appear in the gospel when it was first written. It was likely added 100-200 years later by a scribe who created it based upon tradition.
But it does say something about picking up snakes. Yes, but the overall context of this ending is not a church service, but in things that could happen when Christians take the good news of Christ to the world (see verse 15: “go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation”). The Apostle Paul had an encounter with a poisonous snake on the island of Malta. In that instance, he wasn’t reaching into a box to pull out a snake for an exhilirating experience of some sort; the snake came out from a pile of burning wood and bit him. In Paul’s case, he didn’t swell up, get sick, or die. The people were so amazed, that they were ready to give him a sympathetic ear as he proclaimed the gospel of Christ to them.
Were snakes always depicted as symbols of evil in the Bible? Quite often. Satan is represented as a snake in the garden of Eden. Jesus tells the 70 disciples that he sent out on a mission that he had given them “authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy” (Luke 10:19). In this instance, the snakes and scorptions represented demonic powers.
Were snakes ever symbolic of good? Yes, God instructed Moses to make a bronze snake and put it up on a pole so that anyone who is bitten by a poisonous snake could look upon the pole and live (Numbers 21:8-9). But also during the Greek and Roman era, the god of healing, Asclepius, was often represented by a serpent. In fact, the medical profession today uses the symbol of a caduceus—a snake coiled around a pole—as a symbol for healing.